Bungo Stray Dogs
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willardhwright said: Fai said: Because unlike Kunikida, Dazai is not an idealist. Considering he is a former mafia member, he very likely has killed people in the past for personal gain. Ending the situation this way was pragmatic for him as it absolves the agency from any kind of shade AND lets him get one in on Kunikida's idealism. And the solution providing a warning to Kunikida was a nice bonus. As scary as it is it is kind of classic mafioso move - not only you get rid of a problem without dirtying your own hands, but you also use the solution as deterrent to others. IT was efficient, it was calculated and it was ruthless - hell Dazai most likely expected it to play out this way as he was not that surprised that the hacker guy came there too. Sure it is unfair, unjust, horrifying and has cost the lives of two people, but for Dazai that was the only logical outcome for this. He is not bothered by the situation, because he is not an idealist nor is obsessed with right or wrong like Kunikida is. I'll add some things later because I don't have the time right now, but basically, everything you said + moral relativism. If the poeople you're answering to saw Rampo Kitan or any show of this kind, it's the same thing. Basically, Dazai was in the mafia, and now is among the "good guys", so he pretty much saw anything there is to see; in order words, murders on both sides, the only difference is that one side is "justified by the law"; the other isn't. Their exchange at the end of the episode is in my opinion the best part of the episode; Dazai isn't doing this only to piss Kunikida. But he wants to avoid him becoming a "twenty faces"; it's a lot easier to accept killing if you think tat "it was right" (because of ideals) than to accept it....... for what it is. "Justice is a weapon, it cannot save people". Kunikida could very well do things in the name of this "justice" he speaks of, despite said justice just being "society t says that x is allowed, y isn't", but in the end the result isn't different in any way. A dead person is a dead person. The tears and all of someone cannot reach him in any way. Even if what was done was "in the name of justice". It's a lot more difficult than "x being a better human being than y" because yes, Dazai is kind of a jerk sometimes, however he does have a point; if you decide that what you are doing is right because of your "ideals", what happens if your ideals are tainted, flawed, or not appropriate for the situation in some way? Kunikida could very well become the next "Azure messenger", as Dazai said, because of this black and white mentality. Once again there has been a lot of animes about this too, Rampo Kitan being the first one that came to my mind because of how the azure gu and twenty faces are similar. And no matter how "nice" and more humane Kuni may act now because of his "ideals", if they lead him astray, it'll just create the kind of disaster he his fighting against... Without him even realizing it. Also, the girl kind of wanted to die, too. She wanted to "be free" from everything caused by her husband's death. But that's another matter. It's a really interesting case of moral relativism and it's easy to say that "Dazai is the bad guy, Kuni is the good guy", but you need to take into account what may happen to the "good guy" in the future too, and te fact that Dazai probably never saw himself as the good guy to begin with. I know that many are saying this was to teach Kunikida a lesson but really? Were there really no other ways of going about this? given Kuni's reaction and his character as a whole, you should probably know the answer already. This isn't a nice thing that can be solved by saying "hey, Kuni, listen two seconds! Stop with your ideals and black and white thinking" "Ok sure Dazai, thank you!", and the girl probably wanted to die anyway given how she was. Not that it makes the whole situation a "good thing" in any way, but sometimes bad things need to happen for things to change, and that's a good way to use a bas situation. Pretty sure that the death of the hacker guy wasn't planned, though. Even if once again Dazai isn't NICE. He isn't supposed to be, and definitely wasn't here. But the whole idea is that he KNOWS he isn't. Whether or not she wanted to die is irrelevant. A man killing a woman is just repulsive. You said "But the whole idea is that he KNOWS he isn't." But the problem is that the anime is trying to make it seem like Dazai is the adult one telling Kunikida to grow up, when ACTUALLY Kunikida's morals are nothing but his obligations as a human being and Dazai is the childish one who should think very well about his principles before leaving his home. There's nothing wise or cool in what he did, it was just entirely wrong. |
| “Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.” ― Saint Augustine |
pkKodama said: willardhwright said: I'll add some things later because I don't have the time right now, but basically, everything you said + moral relativism. If the poeople you're answering to saw Rampo Kitan or any show of this kind, it's the same thing. Basically, Dazai was in the mafia, and now is among the "good guys", so he pretty much saw anything there is to see; in order words, murders on both sides, the only difference is that one side is "justified by the law"; the other isn't. Their exchange at the end of the episode is in my opinion the best part of the episode; Dazai isn't doing this only to piss Kunikida. But he wants to avoid him becoming a "twenty faces"; it's a lot easier to accept killing if you think tat "it was right" (because of ideals) than to accept it....... for what it is. "Justice is a weapon, it cannot save people". Kunikida could very well do things in the name of this "justice" he speaks of, despite said justice just being "society t says that x is allowed, y isn't", but in the end the result isn't different in any way. A dead person is a dead person. The tears and all of someone cannot reach him in any way. Even if what was done was "in the name of justice". It's a lot more difficult than "x being a better human being than y" because yes, Dazai is kind of a jerk sometimes, however he does have a point; if you decide that what you are doing is right because of your "ideals", what happens if your ideals are tainted, flawed, or not appropriate for the situation in some way? Kunikida could very well become the next "Azure messenger", as Dazai said, because of this black and white mentality. Once again there has been a lot of animes about this too, Rampo Kitan being the first one that came to my mind because of how the azure gu and twenty faces are similar. And no matter how "nice" and more humane Kuni may act now because of his "ideals", if they lead him astray, it'll just create the kind of disaster he his fighting against... Without him even realizing it. Also, the girl kind of wanted to die, too. She wanted to "be free" from everything caused by her husband's death. But that's another matter. It's a really interesting case of moral relativism and it's easy to say that "Dazai is the bad guy, Kuni is the good guy", but you need to take into account what may happen to the "good guy" in the future too, and te fact that Dazai probably never saw himself as the good guy to begin with. given Kuni's reaction and his character as a whole, you should probably know the answer already. This isn't a nice thing that can be solved by saying "hey, Kuni, listen two seconds! Stop with your ideals and black and white thinking" "Ok sure Dazai, thank you!", and the girl probably wanted to die anyway given how she was. Not that it makes the whole situation a "good thing" in any way, but sometimes bad things need to happen for things to change, and that's a good way to use a bas situation. Pretty sure that the death of the hacker guy wasn't planned, though. Even if once again Dazai isn't NICE. He isn't supposed to be, and definitely wasn't here. But the whole idea is that he KNOWS he isn't. Whether or not she wanted to die is irrelevant. A man killing a woman is just repulsive. You said "But the whole idea is that he KNOWS he isn't." But the problem is that the anime is trying to make it seem like Dazai is the adult one telling Kunikida to grow up, when ACTUALLY Kunikida's morals are nothing but his obligations as a human being and Dazai is the childish one who should think very well about his principles before leaving his home. There's nothing wise or cool in what he did, it was just entirely wrong. There's absolutely nothing indicating that the viewer should support either Dazai's or Kunikida's point of view. |
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| Obviously it was Sasaki. Usually characters like her don't stick around unless they play an important role to the plot. I also observed that she knew too much about the Azure King. RIP to her. Dazai looks hotter when he's being serious. |
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| now all new kind-looking character more be predictable, ass hell |
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pkKodama said: willardhwright said: I'll add some things later because I don't have the time right now, but basically, everything you said + moral relativism. If the poeople you're answering to saw Rampo Kitan or any show of this kind, it's the same thing. Basically, Dazai was in the mafia, and now is among the "good guys", so he pretty much saw anything there is to see; in order words, murders on both sides, the only difference is that one side is "justified by the law"; the other isn't. Their exchange at the end of the episode is in my opinion the best part of the episode; Dazai isn't doing this only to piss Kunikida. But he wants to avoid him becoming a "twenty faces"; it's a lot easier to accept killing if you think tat "it was right" (because of ideals) than to accept it....... for what it is. "Justice is a weapon, it cannot save people". Kunikida could very well do things in the name of this "justice" he speaks of, despite said justice just being "society t says that x is allowed, y isn't", but in the end the result isn't different in any way. A dead person is a dead person. The tears and all of someone cannot reach him in any way. Even if what was done was "in the name of justice". It's a lot more difficult than "x being a better human being than y" because yes, Dazai is kind of a jerk sometimes, however he does have a point; if you decide that what you are doing is right because of your "ideals", what happens if your ideals are tainted, flawed, or not appropriate for the situation in some way? Kunikida could very well become the next "Azure messenger", as Dazai said, because of this black and white mentality. Once again there has been a lot of animes about this too, Rampo Kitan being the first one that came to my mind because of how the azure gu and twenty faces are similar. And no matter how "nice" and more humane Kuni may act now because of his "ideals", if they lead him astray, it'll just create the kind of disaster he his fighting against... Without him even realizing it. Also, the girl kind of wanted to die, too. She wanted to "be free" from everything caused by her husband's death. But that's another matter. It's a really interesting case of moral relativism and it's easy to say that "Dazai is the bad guy, Kuni is the good guy", but you need to take into account what may happen to the "good guy" in the future too, and te fact that Dazai probably never saw himself as the good guy to begin with. given Kuni's reaction and his character as a whole, you should probably know the answer already. This isn't a nice thing that can be solved by saying "hey, Kuni, listen two seconds! Stop with your ideals and black and white thinking" "Ok sure Dazai, thank you!", and the girl probably wanted to die anyway given how she was. Not that it makes the whole situation a "good thing" in any way, but sometimes bad things need to happen for things to change, and that's a good way to use a bas situation. Pretty sure that the death of the hacker guy wasn't planned, though. Even if once again Dazai isn't NICE. He isn't supposed to be, and definitely wasn't here. But the whole idea is that he KNOWS he isn't. Whether or not she wanted to die is irrelevant. A man killing a woman is just repulsive. You said "But the whole idea is that he KNOWS he isn't." But the problem is that the anime is trying to make it seem like Dazai is the adult one telling Kunikida to grow up, when ACTUALLY Kunikida's morals are nothing but his obligations as a human being and Dazai is the childish one who should think very well about his principles before leaving his home. There's nothing wise or cool in what he did, it was just entirely wrong. Dazai isn't the "adult" one, he the one "living in crappy world surrounded with constanst betrayals and death" and adapted to it in order to avoid becoming crazy because of it and that's it. One must not apply his/her own standards to a situation completely different from what you'll live in your own life when the context doesn't have anything to do with it. Again, Dazai was in the mafia, and he probably saw a lot of friends who are nice people (yes, even criminals have love ones and can be realy nice people aside from whatever they're doing that goes against the law) killed by the """good guys""" and it was ok beause the ""good guys"" decided it; it's no wonder he's a little jaded by "justice" and the "doing this is nice/doing this is wrong". In the end to him it's a stupid self-justification to give you the right to kill people; but in the end a dead person is a dead person. That's the whole point of the speech at the end and a main theme of the episode, cf their talk with the woman and how the "tears cannot reach the dead people". Justice and the idea of being nice and all iis good, but when people die because of it, they're dead. Not "dead for a good reason", not "dead but it's fair", they're dead and that's it". Nobody is saying that Dazai is "nice" or "the adult one" here, however what he says could certainly be useful to Kunikida even if it's not applied "the Dazai way" and in this regard, he is wise/right. A dead person is a dead person, and thinking using your ideals to justfy it is just as bad as killing in cold blood, or even worse because you're disillusioning yourself by thinking that it's the "good thing" to do because of your "ideals". that's the part that is, indeed, "wise" as you say. While it more or less shows Kunikida as naive ndeed this shardly wrong; justice isn't a black and white thing. That's the whole point. It is unfair, and some things will be unfair. The azure messenger was like Kunikida; obsessed by "justice"; it created a situation where because he wanted to avoid something "wrong"(the corrupt politicians and all) he created as situation where innocents died and a lot more could have died with that bomb thing earlier in the episode, not to mention that it ruined his wife's life and all. All of this because he was too stuck with his ideals, ideals that WERE really "good". Dazai being "right" or not in how he does it is irrelevant; it is however right when it comes to the part about how Kunikida should not be blinded by his ideals. Being "right" and "nice" in particular according to your own iideals can cause more damage than what you're trying to prevent. A lot more. Dazai is simply a very obvious pragmatist in comparison to Kunikida's idealism. This shouldn't surprise anyone. He just has the advantage of his past which probably allowed him to see some seriously screwed things on both sides in the mafia; something Kunikida doesn't so have right now yeah, he comes as childish. But whether this is the case or not and whether Dazai is right or not is mainly something that will be seen depending of how Kunikida will react in the future regarding his black and white thinking during emergencies. And again, there is no right or wrong. Not in the anime, and ultimately not even in real life; that's the whole point of this, it's not about right or wrong. If anything I'd say that it's about one man already ""broken"" by the crap happening n their line of wrong compared to one not yet ""broken"" by it. Which is why it's interesting. |
| Sasaki-san shouldn't be dead that way at least. I guess the boy that Kunikida tried to protect was just consumed by mere rage and blinded by his revenge, well he got shot but still survived right..!?? Atsushi contributed nothing in the fight, probably both Dazai and Kunikida still wanted him to watch and learn. Curious about the no OP and the ED credits, it's like the show has finished for this season. |
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Shin-rei said: Sasaki-san shouldn't be dead that way at least. I guess the boy that Kunikida tried to protect was just consumed by mere rage and blinded by his revenge, well he got shot but still survived right..!?? Atsushi contributed nothing in the fight, probably both Dazai and Kunikida still wanted him to watch and learn. Curious about the no OP and the ED credits, it's like the show has finished for this season. In the original novel from what I know Atsushi isn't even supposed to be there at this time. That's probably the reason. |
willardhwright said: I see. But I think it's okay to change some things in the anime version a little bit as long as it doesn't effect story progression or create more plot holes. Thanks for info though.In the original novel from what I know Atsushi isn't even supposed to be there at this time. That's probably the reason. |
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| This episode was great. Love the relationship between Daizai and Kunikida xD |
Shin-rei said: willardhwright said: I see. But I think it's okay to change some things in the anime version a little bit as long as it doesn't effect story progression or create more plot holes. Thanks for info though.In the original novel from what I know Atsushi isn't even supposed to be there at this time. That's probably the reason. You can find the first book translated on chendaere's tumblr, I will not link because I'm not too sure of how the link policy works here but a quick googling ill lead you here. Sasaki appears at the very end of the first book so it doesn't cover everything. That's what I think too and it's not a problem for me; Atsushi being there is no bg deal. However there is one MAIN difference, that is important IMO and probably explain a lot about what some people are saying about Dazai; In the novel, it's supposed to be his entrance exam, aka his FIRST case in the detective agency. Hence his behaviour at the end, since he's WAY, WAY CLOSER to his "mafia days" (and everything "justice" caused for people he knew) than he seems to be in the anime. It may be the main problem I have with le last two episodes; it screws a bit with the characters since they changed when it happens but not so much WHAT happens, AFAIK. Dazai's recklessness is way more understandable when you know that it's his very first case and where he comes from. So yeah, it affected the story somewhat IMO but if you know how they did it it isn't so much of a problem. At the very least not a story-breaking one. |
willardhwright said: Shin-rei said: I see. But I think it's okay to change some things in the anime version a little bit as long as it doesn't effect story progression or create more plot holes. Thanks for info though. You can find the first book translated on chendaere's tumblr, I will not link because I'm not too sure of how the link policy works here but a quick googling ill lead you here. Sasaki appears at the very end of the first book so it doesn't cover everything. That's what I think too and it's not a problem for me; Atsushi being there is no bg deal. However there is one MAIN difference, that is important IMO and probably explain a lot about what some people are saying about Dazai; In the novel, it's supposed to be his entrance exam, aka his FIRST case in the detective agency. Hence his behaviour at the end, since he's WAY, WAY CLOSER to his "mafia days" (and everything "justice" caused for people he knew) than he seems to be in the anime. It may be the main problem I have with le last two episodes; it screws a bit with the characters since they changed when it happens but not so much WHAT happens, AFAIK. Dazai's recklessness is way more understandable when you know that it's his very first case and where he comes from. So yeah, it affected the story somewhat IMO but if you know how they did it it isn't so much of a problem. At the very least not a story-breaking one. IMO it works better the way it was done here. Dazai can pull this shit because he is already connected to these people and they are bound to react in different ways instead of just abandoning him. I really can't see this whole situation working out this way if he was relative "newbie". |
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Fai said: willardhwright said: You can find the first book translated on chendaere's tumblr, I will not link because I'm not too sure of how the link policy works here but a quick googling ill lead you here. Sasaki appears at the very end of the first book so it doesn't cover everything. That's what I think too and it's not a problem for me; Atsushi being there is no bg deal. However there is one MAIN difference, that is important IMO and probably explain a lot about what some people are saying about Dazai; In the novel, it's supposed to be his entrance exam, aka his FIRST case in the detective agency. Hence his behaviour at the end, since he's WAY, WAY CLOSER to his "mafia days" (and everything "justice" caused for people he knew) than he seems to be in the anime. It may be the main problem I have with le last two episodes; it screws a bit with the characters since they changed when it happens but not so much WHAT happens, AFAIK. Dazai's recklessness is way more understandable when you know that it's his very first case and where he comes from. So yeah, it affected the story somewhat IMO but if you know how they did it it isn't so much of a problem. At the very least not a story-breaking one. IMO it works better the way it was done here. Dazai can pull this shit because he is already connected to these people and they are bound to react in different ways instead of just abandoning him. I really can't see this whole situation working out this way if he was relative "newbie". I'm fine with it too despite it affecting the story, but I can kind of get why a lot of people would react like they do when it comes to "killing" Sasaki. After all even if it's mainly a front he is shown as a "nice guy that is a bit of an idiot" only talking about suicide as the (dark) comic relief since the beginning of the anime, so if you don't get beforehand that the character was into the mafia for a reason and it wasn't a random one-liner, and that he ISN'T supposed to be a "do-goodie" it can cause quite of a shock. Both can work IMO, but I can see why someone not seeing that Dazai isn't supposed to be really "nice" in the idiot hero meaning (that would be Atsushi, the character) could get it wrong. Moreover, in addition to said connection that kind of shows that they are REALLY friend, as you said, it allows a "good is not nice" theme and a clash about justice which makes the work less "black and white" as in following the law/ideals = good, not doing it = evil. In fact in some regards it may be more interesting this way because otherwise, it's just a "Dazai isn't used to being nice yet"; in the anime it's a full ideology clash twenty faces-style where Dazai isn't the only one questioned for his actions. But still, if you're expecting the character to be "nice" because it's one of the "nice guys" and are expecting it to go shounen-style and you want your hero to be "ideal", the reactions are to be expected. What I really wonder is if Dazai and Kunikida's teamwork was already as great in the novel, because while it works in the anime, it'd be more weird in the novel. I guess I'll have to search for the rest of the novel for this. |
willardhwright said: Fai said: IMO it works better the way it was done here. Dazai can pull this shit because he is already connected to these people and they are bound to react in different ways instead of just abandoning him. I really can't see this whole situation working out this way if he was relative "newbie". I'm fine with it too despite it affecting the story, but I can kind of get why a lot of people would react like they do when it comes to "killing" Sasaki. After all even if it's mainly a front he is shown as a "nice guy that is a bit of an idiot" only talking about suicide as the (dark) comic relief since the beginning of the anime, so if you don't get beforehand that the character was into the mafia for a reason and it wasn't a random one-liner, and that he ISN'T supposed to be a "do-goodie" it can cause quite of a shock. Both can work IMO, but I can see why someone not seeing that Dazai isn't supposed to be really "nice" in the idiot hero meaning (that would be Atsushi, the character) could get it wrong. Moreover, in addition to said connection that kind of shows that they are REALLY friend, as you said, it allows a "good is not nice" theme and a clash about justice which makes the work less "black and white" as in following the law/ideals = good, not doing it = evil. In fact in some regards it may be more interesting this way because otherwise, it's just a "Dazai isn't used to being nice yet"; in the anime it's a full ideology clash twenty faces-style where Dazai isn't the only one questioned for his actions. But still, if you're expecting the character to be "nice" because it's one of the "nice guys" and are expecting it to go shounen-style and you want your hero to be "ideal", the reactions are to be expected. What I really wonder is if Dazai and Kunikida's teamwork was already as great in the novel, because while it works in the anime, it'd be more weird in the novel. I guess I'll have to search for the rest of the novel for this. To be honest I feel this side of Dazai was very well foreshadowed - like the voice change and the facial expression he had when he talked about port mafia methods in the Edogawa Rampo episode. Or when he confronted Akutagawa in the alley. Hell, even the first episode tactics of using Atsushi as a bait and deceiving him(and Kunikida) feels like milder version of this - after all Kunikida would most likely not allow any harm to an innocent(in that case Atsushi) which was the risk with Dazai's plan there - so Kunikida ended up being tricked by Dazai into not being there, in case things turn south. |
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Fai said: willardhwright said: I'm fine with it too despite it affecting the story, but I can kind of get why a lot of people would react like they do when it comes to "killing" Sasaki. After all even if it's mainly a front he is shown as a "nice guy that is a bit of an idiot" only talking about suicide as the (dark) comic relief since the beginning of the anime, so if you don't get beforehand that the character was into the mafia for a reason and it wasn't a random one-liner, and that he ISN'T supposed to be a "do-goodie" it can cause quite of a shock. Both can work IMO, but I can see why someone not seeing that Dazai isn't supposed to be really "nice" in the idiot hero meaning (that would be Atsushi, the character) could get it wrong. Moreover, in addition to said connection that kind of shows that they are REALLY friend, as you said, it allows a "good is not nice" theme and a clash about justice which makes the work less "black and white" as in following the law/ideals = good, not doing it = evil. In fact in some regards it may be more interesting this way because otherwise, it's just a "Dazai isn't used to being nice yet"; in the anime it's a full ideology clash twenty faces-style where Dazai isn't the only one questioned for his actions. But still, if you're expecting the character to be "nice" because it's one of the "nice guys" and are expecting it to go shounen-style and you want your hero to be "ideal", the reactions are to be expected. What I really wonder is if Dazai and Kunikida's teamwork was already as great in the novel, because while it works in the anime, it'd be more weird in the novel. I guess I'll have to search for the rest of the novel for this. To be honest I feel this side of Dazai was very well foreshadowed - like the voice change and the facial expression he had when he talked about port mafia methods in the Edogawa Rampo episode. Or when he confronted Akutagawa in the alley. Hell, even the first episode tactics of using Atsushi as a bait and deceiving him(and Kunikida) feels like milder version of this - after all Kunikida would most likely not allow any harm to an innocent(in that case Atsushi) which was the risk with Dazai's plan there - so Kunikida ended up being tricked by Dazai into not being there, in case things turn south. Yep, and it's not the only time; see when Akutagawa first appeared and he made it look like he was listening to songs about suicide in front of Kunikida when he was in fact listening to the microphone on Higuchi, on the episode with the Tanizaki siblings. Which was probably a good thing because Kunikida being "too stuck on his ideals" might have caused a problem even for the microphone on a client thing. I'd say that rather than just "tolerating" each other, they both NEED each other because how they are is pretty much the only thing that allows things not to go too far. And I would to add that it's not completely out-of-character for Dazai as well, even without the whole "let her be killed by her own methods" thing. It's the same problem as Sasuke from the post-time skip Naruto; in "our" society (which is reflected by Kunikida's ideals here), killing is bad, no matter what. But a long time ago filial piety was still a very big thing and was more of a grey area when it comes to revenge; it's probably not random that he lets the kid of someone killed by this azure guy kill the one that "took over his job"after his death. And as far as I can remember, filial piety is a very big thing among yakuza (to take the closest thing to the mafia in Japan). It's less of a problem of good vs bad and more of a problem of WHAT is right / WHAT is wrong when it comes to humans; would letting the kid die because of Sasaki without even being able to avenge his father (that died "because of Kunikida", according to Kunikida, at least) be ok? Well, I guess that for some people it would, for others it wouldn't. But if the yakuza can be used as a template in this case, since the plot IS set in Japan, it's not out of character at all for him or even plain "evil" even without the whole "justice cannot save people" thing. It's mainly a case of values dissonance since filial piety is/was pretty muc h a DUTY, which is what makes it interesting IMO. |
willardhwrightMay 21, 2016 9:16 AM
| Okay it was too obvious that Sasaki was the one behind all that. The episode where the mafia woman came to the Agency to ask help was too similiar to this one. And the kid had no right to shoot her. Yes she had a gun, but she lowered it and shoved zero interest to shoot. |
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willardhwright said: Fai said: To be honest I feel this side of Dazai was very well foreshadowed - like the voice change and the facial expression he had when he talked about port mafia methods in the Edogawa Rampo episode. Or when he confronted Akutagawa in the alley. Hell, even the first episode tactics of using Atsushi as a bait and deceiving him(and Kunikida) feels like milder version of this - after all Kunikida would most likely not allow any harm to an innocent(in that case Atsushi) which was the risk with Dazai's plan there - so Kunikida ended up being tricked by Dazai into not being there, in case things turn south. Yep, and it's not the only time; see when Akutagawa first appeared and he made it look like he was listening to songs about suicide in front of Kunikida when he was in fact listening to the microphone on Higuchi, on the episode with the Tanizaki siblings. Which was probably a good thing because Kunikida being "too stuck on his ideals" might have caused a problem even for the microphone on a client thing. I'd say that rather than just "tolerating" each other, they both NEED each other because how they are is pretty much the only thing that allows things not to go too far. And I would to add that it's not completely out-of-character for Dazai as well, even without the whole "let her be killed by her own methods" thing. It's the same problem as Sasuke from the post-time skip Naruto; in "our" society (which is reflected by Kunikida's ideals here), killing is bad, no matter what. But a long time ago filial piety was still a very big thing and was more of a grey area when it comes to revenge; it's probably not random that he lets the kid of someone killed by this azure guy kill the one that "took over his job"after his death. And as far as I can remember, filial piety is a very big thing among yakuza (to take the closest thing to the mafia in Japan). It's less of a problem of good vs bad and more of a problem of WHAT is right / WHAT is wrong when it comes to humans; would letting the kid die because of Sasaki without even being able to avenge his father (that died "because of Kunikida", according to Kunikida, at least) be ok? Well, I guess that for some people it would, for others it wouldn't. But if the yakuza can be used as a template in this case, since the plot IS set in Japan, it's not out of character at all for him or even plain "evil" even without the whole "justice cannot save people" thing. It's mainly a case of values dissonance since filial piety is/was pretty muc h a DUTY, which is what makes it interesting IMO. Yah a lot of people bitched about Dazai putting three members at risk with the whole plan in that akutagawa intro ep. This kind of gives context to his actions in that too. I do think they need to balance each other but that does not mean that they will see eye to eye. Their relationship dynamics are very unhealthy and problematic, yet absolutely necessary for their own survival. That's why they are a team(which answers Atsushi's question this and previous ep) - one does what other would not and yet at the same time they prevent each other from doing things each other absolutely should not. |
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| Their teamwork during the fight was amazing. Dazai is so weird, but I like him. I hope the relation between Kunikida and Dazai will be developed in the next episodes |
| Hopefully the boy would have survived right? I feel bad because I think he is the only who is the least culpable in this situation. Dazai made a good point, but it would seem a very callous thing to bring up in an attempt to teach kunakida "a lesson" at the expensive of the boy's life. I don't think what Dazai did was right, but I understand why he might want to call Kunakida out. Still it didn't seem like it affected Kunakida's line of thinking, since he still obviously feels like his ideals are solid and that the pursuit of justice is morally right. So looks like the boy's "death" was in vain. I don't think Sasaki's hands are clean- or rather I think her hands are dirtier than the boys. I can see why she did what she did as well, but she risked killing uninvolved people just to see the agency go down so her actions are inexcusable either. I do think she was ready in her own mind to die tho. Since we didn't get that much time with her, I can't say I really felt too moved when she died. I kind of felt this way in regards to this whole entire arc in general. The exploration into Kunakida's character was useful and obviously multiple strategies occurred, but I didn't really feel that moved lol. When it comes to Dazai and Kunakida as a team- well, I think they are actually a very interesting pairing, Kunakida being the moral black and white type of thinker, and Dazai being someone who clearly had his genesis in the underworld (being that he used to be a member of the port mafia). I doubt his hands are clean either. When they aren't being forced to run through their usual gags, they are actually very good fighting as a team. I think their contrast in thinking will be interesting to see play out in future episodes. |
I couldn't think of anything cool to put here.  |
Fai said: KNEW IT IT WOULD TURN INTO TRAGEDY LOL. Nobuko and Kunikida's marriage was the unhappiest part of Kunikida Doppo's life, so it only fits that Nobuko's involvement would cause an awful tragedy for Doppo's life and cause an existential crisis shaking him to the very core. Holy shit I love this show. This is actually really interesting, thanks for sharing this! I really don't know anything about the literature the characters are based off of, so it's cool to see parallels like this explained. : -) |
I couldn't think of anything cool to put here. |
razephyr said: I haven't read the light novel but I think Kunikida is the Azure King? The deal with the Rokuzou guy, it seems that he's atoning for his sins and becoming the boy's father figure. Also, Dazai and Kunikida's confrontation in the end doesn't really emit the theory that Kunikida is the Azure King. It's like Dazai is telling Kunikida that if he doesn't stop with being an idealist, he will return to being the Azure King. idk. and, well... Kunikida looks like the Azure King, not to mention same seiyuu Nobuko was Azure King's girlfriend,so no Kunikida is not Azure King. But he is heading a very similar path. |
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Handofgod2 said: Back to Manga next week, enjoyed the filler. Excited to see where this goes This was not a filler. |
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| I love this anime original story it was really good ! |
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| I kinda liked Sasaki. I don't really see the point of killing her off. Fun fact: I heard from somewhere and looked it up at Wikipedia and it turns out that Kunikida Doppo's ex-wife (IRL) is named Sasaki Nobuko. Damn, they could have been a nice couple... Oh well, no use in crying over spilled milk, so I'll just move on. That teamwork between Dazai and Kunikida is awesome though. |
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| The show is more enjoyable when it is less comical. The two deaths could have been avoided. |
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Hijazi said: How would it be avoided between the two deaths scenes? Please give an explaination😊.The show is more enjoyable when it is less comical. The two deaths could have been avoided. |
| Anime/MangaFan Mahwa fan |
| How Convenient!...the powers of Armed Detective Agency! The two just need to be swapped positions in order to defeat the enemy! At the end of this episode, suddenly, it became bloodfest of death! So Sasaki Nobuko was the mastermind all this time and shells just beside them all the time! 5/5. |
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| Not a surprise it was the girl who did all the scheme...I said in the last episode discussion that she was together in it for sure... |
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RHS100 said: Hijazi said: How would it be avoided between the two deaths scenes? Please give an explaination😊.The show is more enjoyable when it is less comical. The two deaths could have been avoided. what do you mean by 'it' in your statement? If you are talking about comedy between the death scenes then I don't remember there being any. I was talking about the needless deaths of Sasaki and the hacker boy. Dazai had already figured out who was the culprit, so all he needed to do was to lure her in and capture her. There was no need to send a message and have the showdown costing two people their lives. |
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| Not a big fan of this episode. I'm not going to claim I'm the biggest fan of the series, I don't love it, but I don't hate it either, though I'd gravitate towards like than dislike. Even with that said, I think the conclusion to this was incredibly weak. Dazai called her to meet, and she obviously has the capacity to take lives. The fact that she brought a gun and killed someone wasn't in anyway a stretch or unexpected, and for that an innocent bystander had to die just because Dazai wanted to teach Kunikida a lesson. Not only that, but their reactions were weak too. Kunikida barely even reacted when Rokuzou died, and he showed absolutely no thought towards the fact that literally everything in that scene could have been avoided, and just gives a generic complaint about why everything had to end this way. I like the series, but it seems to me like the animators aren't the best at following up on a good premise, which this arc had. Probably going to avoid fillers if there are anymore now, unless specifically written by the manga author themself. Edit: Looks like I wasn't the first to notice this, probably shouldn't have posted without reading all of the posts first. |
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| I'm so glad they left out the cliche where the timer stops at 00:00:01. :DD This episode was probably the best so far, I loved every minute of it, and that ending holy shit!!! o.O I'm kinda sad because I liked Sasaki and Rokuzou too, but this plot twist worked for me perfectly. First when Rokuzou walked in I was like "Nooo waaay!" and then when Sasaki walked in "OH HELL NOOO WAAAAYYY!!!" :"DD |
| I really find the tragedy in the end utterly pointless both inside and outside of the story. |
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| I really liked this episode took the series from a 7 to an 8 for me. I cannot believe it was a filler XD Well Done |
| [url=http://myanimelist.net/animelist/QcK_Dagger_HeaT&sclick=1][IMG] |
| So this arc is Doppo's Arc. tbh, i really enjoyed this arc especially because of the characterization coming from Doppo. really like that tbh honest. talking about ideals and some stuff which has connecting with it. the action was awsome imo. tho it wasn't something that bizzare, i enjoy it and i think it's pretty cool. it's the first time i have see Dazai struggling like that tho... and i think it's a good thing that Dazai is actually not really that OP. i seriously thought Dazai was too OP xD and i kinda feel that Azure King, if i'm not wrong, he was actually Doppo ? since his voice and eyes AND HAIR COLOR are really similiar to Doppo.... but this episode didn't show any of that so......okay...... I kinda feel bad for the girl, i mean the culprit or the mastermind tho...... in the end she just wanted to take a revenged ? oh! no. she wanted to continued her boyfriend ideals......that's why she did all of that and in addition, she add her own revange in it. i thought she was gonne be Doppo's girlfriend tho ;_; Overall, really great arc imo. i enjoyed it a lot. next episode will be the girl in the agency turn. i'm looking foward to seeing her characterization....and there will be some new character too especially that "Miko" ? either way, i can't wait for it. i need to watch the next episode ASAP! xD |
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| Why couldn't the kid live!? |
| I liked the episode. This time we didn't have comedy in the worst timing, the cooperation between Danzai and Kunikida was cool to see and I liked the clash of philosophies they had at the end, since it really shown well the difference between the way of act they have. However, there is one thing that kills the episode, and it's not the obvious revelation of Sasaki as the culprit, but how Kunikida left that kid die and start to argue with Dazai, when he was protecting the boy all this time and he was a precious information broker for the agency. Really out of character considering that he tried to protect him to honor his deceased father. They could at least made Kunikida showing horror for his death and try to save the kid to later start to argue with Dazai when he perish and that. And it was Kunikida the Azure King? Because it has the same voice and hair that him and Kunikida insisted a lot that he was dead during the episode. |
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Illyricus said: And it was Kunikida the Azure King? Because it has the same voice and hair that him and Kunikida insisted a lot that he was dead during the episode. No he is not. It's just to showcase how similar they are in being devoted to their ideals to an extent they're almost identical. And that's why dazai gave him that warning in the end in order not end up like him . |
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DragonSlayer_19 said: Oh, I see. It has more sense now, since it would be weird that Kunikida would had been a villain in the past (he can have a short-trigger temper, but he is a nice guy).Illyricus said: And it was Kunikida the Azure King? Because it has the same voice and hair that him and Kunikida insisted a lot that he was dead during the episode. No he is not. It's just to showcase how similar they are in being devoted to their ideals to an extent they're almost identical. And that's why dazai gave him that warning in the end in order not end up like him . Many thanks for the response ^^ |
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Illyricus said: DragonSlayer_19 said: Oh, I see. It has more sense now, since it would be weird that Kunikida would had been a villain in the past (he can have a short-trigger temper, but he is a nice guy).No he is not. It's just to showcase how similar they are in being devoted to their ideals to an extent they're almost identical. And that's why dazai gave him that warning in the end in order not end up like him . Many thanks for the response ^^ No problem. These 2 episodes 6 & 7 were adapted from the novel stories not the manga . episode 8 should have continued directly from episode 5 if they stuck to the manga only, but they decided to give kunikida characterization, and I realized why they did it in later episodes . |
Shishou_23Jun 26, 2016 9:09 AM
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DragonSlayer_19 said: I don't mind that, since that makes Kunikida more fleshed out and he wouldn't end being bland and overshadowed by other characters.Illyricus said: Oh, I see. It has more sense now, since it would be weird that Kunikida would had been a villain in the past (he can have a short-trigger temper, but he is a nice guy). Many thanks for the response ^^ No problem. These 2 episodes 6 & 7 were adapted from the novel stories not the manga . episode 8 should have continued directly from episode 5 if they stuck to the manga, but they decided to give kunikida characterization, and I realized why they did it in later episodes . |
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Its not a filler. Its an adaptation of the light novel written by the same mangaka. |
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