Spotlight Manga: Lone Wolf and Cub MAL Series Information Page: Lone Wolf and Cub MAL Score - 8.52 (by 320 users) Ranked - #52 Popularity - #494 For the next week I would like to have a discussion about the series that focuses on the key elements that we here on MAL use to critically rate a manga: Art, Characters, Story, and Enjoyment. I would like everyone to approach this thread as if you were going to write a review and structure your initial post like this: Art - insert rating Characters - insert rating Story - insert rating Enjoyment - insert rating Art - discuss any pros and cons of the art styling used in the series, try to include some specifics. Character - describe any of the things you liked or didn't care for in regards to specific characters in the series etc... If you are having trouble writing up a review or coming up with specific pro's and cons, please don't worry. Just do the best you can with it and if you can only write two or three sentences about any of the 4 elements then that's OK. Not everyone here is currently at a level which will allow them to articulate their thoughts and opinions. After your initial post is made you can feel free to civilly discuss issues of contention. I am sure there will be many opinions expressed here that some of us will disagree upon and criticize and it is for that reason that this entire club exists. So I hope everyone has fun and I am really looking forward to seeing how this discussion will develop. THE YOU DECIDE POLL RESULTS: Lone Wolf and Cub (Manga) (29/01/18) - Yes: 5 - No: 6 - I haven't read this manga: 43 ~ Abstained: 2 - 45% Resurrection You Decide results: Lone Wolf and Cub (Manga) (31/3/19) - Yes: 7 - No: 5 - Haven't read: 38 ~ Abstained: 2 - 58% |
TruePeinSep 8, 2019 3:15 PM
| Simply put, THE MOST INFLUENTIAL PIECE OF MEDIA in the history of Japan, and one of the biggest, most enduring icons in the world. Even my parents, who grew up in Soviet Russia, and know nothing about anime or manga, are well acquainted with Lonewolf and Cub and have watched all the live action films. Roll Cowboy Bebop, NGE, and Hokuto No Ken into one, and it still wouldn't come close to the importance and impact of "Lonewolf and Cub". |
| Why is it so influential? I haven't read it btw, I'm just curious. |
BigSimo said: Why is it so influential? I haven't read it btw, I'm just curious. Besides being probably the most famous, biggest manga hit of the entire seventies, it spawned six live action films that attained major international fame, as well as permanent influence on both Japanese cinema and action films in general. Oddly enough, when I was looking up stuff on Wikipedia about the author, I learned that he has a popular six month course for aspiring manga authors. Successful graduates include Tetsuo Hara, the genius artist and original creator of HnK, Hideyuki Kikuchi, the dude who wrote the Vampire Hunter D novels, the only anime/manga products I've ever spent actual money on, and Keisuke Itagaki, the creator of Baki, my favorite action anime, and the adaptation of Garouden, my favorite action manga. So perhaps part of it was his classes as well as the influence of Lone Wolf and Cub, but at any rate, I might not even watch anime or read manga anymore if it weren't for the author. And the live action films were the greatest things I had ever seen long, long before I considered anime or manga serious mediums of self-expression. |
| I have yet to see the live action film. I do recall enjoying Road to Perdition which was said to be a homage of sorts to Lone Wolf and Cub though. *will try to post a more decent comment on the manga itself later* |
| I looked at the page, and all there is is a piddly little blog about the series so I've tried to write a decent review for it. It's taken me two days to write this, and I still don't think I've done the series any justice. Here it is anyway... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There are many anime and manga that can rightly be considered classics for one reason or another. Of these, only a few can surpass this status and truly be considered masterpieces in the purest form (and when I say a few, I mean exactly that). Supreme amongst these titles is a manga that is considered the single most influential piece of literature (and I do not use that word lightly), to come from Japan during the 20th Century. That manga is Lone Wolf and Cub. The creation of writer Koike Kazuo and artist Kojima Goseki, the story tells of Ogami Itto, the Kogi Kaishakunin (Shogun's Executioner), during the time of the Tokugawa Shogunate. He returns home shortly after the birth of his son, Daigoro, to find his wife and retainers brutally murdered, and himself suddenly named as a traitor who is expected to commit seppuku. Instead, he gives his 1 year old son, the only survivor of the attack, the choice between a ball and a sword. Should his son choose the ball, then he will be sent to his mother's side. Should he choose the sword however, then he will join his father on the road of blood and vengeance, of slaughter and heartless cruelty. Thus begins the legend of Lone Wolf and Cub. To say that the story is breathtaking would be an understatement. There are very few words that can truly convey the depth of the individual tales, or the depth of one's emotions as you join Ogami and Daigoro on the road to meifumado (the buddhist hell). This is a work that will evoke almost every emotion you'd care to name, from righteous fury to heartwrenching sorrow, from earnest hope to blind hatred. The complexity and detail of the plot reveal a level of sophistication that many have tried to copy over the decades since its release, but none have managed to better. The episodic format of the series allows the reader a greater degree of accesibility to the story, whilst losing nothing in terms of character development. If anything, the format actually enhances the various roles, with a number of characters being far more "real" in just one appearance than many lead characters in other stories. The artwork of Kojima Goseki is nothing short of exquisite. The style adopted throughout the series has a certain gritty realism to it, whilst retaining an expressionist form reminiscent of traditional Japanese art. Kojima's simple, yet evocative, style allows for a greater degree of expression than can normally be found in manga, with the characters themselves retaining a feeling a reality. The quality of the artwork, together with Koike's gripping storyline, allows for a suspension of disbelief that is difficult to match by any other series. The characters are wonderful in their uniqueness, style and personality. Ogami is a truly complex and many layered character. An assasin with a strong sense of nobility, a "demon" who is a loving father and husband, a symbol of hope for some, terror incarnate to many. Daigoro, on the other hand, is how one would expect a child to be, innocent, playful, and with very few cares in the world. One of the most wonderful things about the series is the how it addresses the bond between father and son, and in many stories Ogami bets his life on the strength of this bond. In a very real sense, he is trusting his 3 year old child to "watch his back", and this leads to some truly astounding development between the two, especially at the end of the series, with it's truly awe-inspiring climax. There are many other characters who appear throughout the series, however the majority will only appear in one story or another. However, this does not impact on their level of realism, as many of the characters with only one appearance possess an enormous amount of depth from the start. In the case of Lone Wolf and Cub, enjoyment is purely a specualtive term. The level of realism in the series is breathtaking, and the various action sequences will often leave you speechless, with the most exhilerating being the 178 panel sequence (you'll know it when you read it) - possibly the longest fight ever portrayed in manga. The scope of the series is of epic proportions, with each panel searing white-hot across one's mind, and unlike many other long running series, this never gets old or stale. I first read this back in 1989, and 20 years later I still get chills whenever I pick it up again. This is a series that you will find yourself re-reading for years to come. This masterwork of the storyteller's art has had incredible and lasting influence both inside and outside of Japan. As well as spawning 7 movies and various TV movies, the series has also been adapted into two TV series and four plays. In terms manga and anime, one need look no further than Rurouni Kenshin, Hokuto no Ken, Black Jack, Vampire Hunter D, Mushishi, etc. In addition to this, the influence on Western media has been just as great. Comics and novels such as Sin City, Cable, The Road, Ronin, Road to Perdition and Waylander all pay homage to the series, with additional references being found everywhere from Final Fantasy and Samurai Jack, to Usagi Yojimbo and Kill Bill. Lone Wolf and Cub is a work that has truly crossed the boundary between popular media and true literature. The style, pace, artwork and characterization throughout the series are the benchmarks by which many mangaka set their standards. The global popularity and influence of the series crosses the boundaries of age and gender, with many fans of the series being uninterested in other manga and anime. Lone Wolf and Cub is, by any measure, a true masterpiece. Even now, as I close off this review, I still feel I haven't done it justice. Yes, it is that good. |
ArchaeonMar 11, 2009 4:07 PM
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
ShaolinRibiero said: BigSimo said: Why is it so influential? I haven't read it btw, I'm just curious. Besides being probably the most famous, biggest manga hit of the entire seventies, it spawned six live action films that attained major international fame, as well as permanent influence on both Japanese cinema and action films in general. Oddly enough, when I was looking up stuff on Wikipedia about the author, I learned that he has a popular six month course for aspiring manga authors. Successful graduates include Tetsuo Hara, the genius artist and original creator of HnK, Hideyuki Kikuchi, the dude who wrote the Vampire Hunter D novels, the only anime/manga products I've ever spent actual money on, and Keisuke Itagaki, the creator of Baki, my favorite action anime, and the adaptation of Garouden, my favorite action manga. So perhaps part of it was his classes as well as the influence of Lone Wolf and Cub, but at any rate, I might not even watch anime or read manga anymore if it weren't for the author. And the live action films were the greatest things I had ever seen long, long before I considered anime or manga serious mediums of self-expression. Wow, that's pretty extraordinary. Guess I'll have to check it out. |
| Heh, I would have written more about the manga (which, granted, I've only read half of at this point), but Archaeon pretty much covered it. Its influence and masterpiece status is indeed that great. |
| @ CMB17 Damn, I forgot about The Dark Knight Returns. |
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
| By now it has been established to quite a degree that Lone Wolf and Cub was, and perhaps still is, influential. But that's only part of the equation. As important, if not more, is: is it actually any good? The answer to that would be, quite frankly: Yes, very much so. The Clint Eastwood: Lone Wolf and Cub starts out with a time-honoured concept, namely that of the wronged warrior who is out for his revenge against a villain who has the backing of the government, making the warrior an exile. Both the protagonist and the main antagonist are portrayed (the latter only later in the story so) as a dying breed, true knights among the modern masses. Especially the protagonist is recognised as such and admired because of it. What this manga adds to the mix is, first and foremost, having the warrior accompanied by his infant son, who undergoes his fate as stoically as does his father and serves as yet another example of (romanticised) samurai spirit. The manga is completely focused on this perception of samurai spirit, especially as held by a select few in a world that, by and large, lacks it. While many manga and other media have tried to rely on a sense of this spirit to make the protagonists or the setting stand out, Lone Wolf and Cub manages to portray this notion by placing it in an intensely detailed and historically highly accurate mid-Tokugawa Japan. The choice of temporal setting is an intensely strong one, as this was a time of economic stagnation and dwindling of resources, wherein the older elite slowly was driven to poverty due to the continuing demands from a still-expanding government. The general unrest and economic upheaval this resulted in is very visible in many of the chapters, and not a few pages are devoted to explaining the conflicting priorities of many of the elite, while the point is hammered in that a somewhat idealised aristocracy that, all its vices notwithstanding, had a sense of noblesse oblige is losing out to the up-and-coming bureaucrats. The pages of the manga show many faces of the Japan of those days, from small peasant hovels to the palaces of major lords, from bustling market streets filled with banter, via the raucous hustle of the red-light district, to the often deserted shrines wherein at times the sutras are still chanted. It shows us the customs of the crime gangs, the workings of the brothels and the worldly affairs of the ruling samurai elite, which is often portrayed as completely ignorant of the moral and spiritual obligations it should, thus the creators of the manga, have had. Enter the protagonist, Ogami Itto, who, while still being able to spew forth Buddhist and bushido wisdoms, is placed in the somewhat ironic role of assassin. He holds fast to his beliefs and his quest, pursuing his path as someone who has placed the world of the living behind him, not asking about right and wrong anymore. In doing so, Itto and his son stray from the path of the average action hero. They aren't in their business because of justice, but simply for the sake of revenge. This is what makes it possible for Itto to not question what he must do, whether this is for the good or bad of many. In this fashion we see him placed in many different situations and interact with many different people. There are literally hundreds of secondary characters in this manga, and they come from all different backgrounds and are given all different personalities. A perfect example would be the different faces of police functionaries in the manga: from the simply practical, via those that act from a sense of justice and those that do not wish to punish the criminal but the crime, to the simply corrupt. And quite a few characters are simply difficult to place. This is because their thoughts and actions make little sense to us, but are taken from ideas that the creators believe people from there and then must have held. Itto himself is a prime example: he is guided by his sense of what is proper, often taken from Buddhist teachings, but this sense may at times seem completely inconsistent to us. The Lee Van Cleef: Herein lies also the first problem I have with Lone Wolf and Cub. There are simply too many chapters in which pain is taken to carefully set up a situation, only to have Itto intrude, completely mess up the situation by killing someone, before uttering some decorative proverb and leaving again, with not so much as a final note attached by the creators on the actual situation. Far too often, Itto's entrance has nothing to do with the situation: his role as an assassin makes him continuously re-usable without having him have anything to do with the situation displayed. After a while, it gets repetitive and forced, even if it is clear that these chapters are included for no reason but to showcase different parts of the setting. The above wouldn't have become a problem were it not for the length of the manga. With 300 pages a book, the 28 books contain about as much pages as 42 books of average size. In these 42 books, surprisingly little happens. The story is by and large divided into two arcs, one in which Itto is acting out his assassin role, and one in which he turns against those who did him wrong. This means that we're treated, again and again, to Itto offing someone with whom he has nothing to do, or to Itto fighting against ever-increasing hordes of enemies. This latter point becomes quite ridiculous as time goes on. Lone Wolf and Cub uses very little in the way of strange skills and powers, but tries to remain on the side of realism when it comes to the fights. While this is admirable in general, it becomes very difficult to believe the superhuman feats Itto starts performing when he is placed against ever greater odds: while I could live with him defeating a few assassins at once, him ploughing through an entire army is simply too much. Moreover, after a while you simply stop caring as yet another bunch of enemies appears and is summarily dealt with. The Other Guy: The art of especially the middle part of the manga is exceptionally good, being incredibly detailed without losing an artistic sense in the way especially movements are sketched. The first and last few books, however, are of a different kind. Here and there in the first few books the art is simply bad: perspective and relative proportions are quite a few times mistreated, while the relative positions of especially facial features have a tendency to drift all over. The last few books see the illustrator losing himself in his painting, as simple brush strokes begin to dominate entire pages and the lavishly intricate backgrounds are mostly gone. Another point that might have had a bit of improvement is the use of Itto's son, Daigoro. While he has chapters dedicated to himself, all effectively end with the author, yet again, pointing out that Daigoro follows his father's road through hell and has as indomitable a spirit as Itto. While the premise is interesting, it is a bit of a shame that so little is done with it, and Daigoro is often effectively nothing but a tool to strengthen the sense of the pair's detachment from the human world. They also seem to be detached from time. While it is never made fully clear what length of time passes by during the whole of the manga, it is notable at the least that Daigoro does not seem to age at all. All of the above said, a special note must be made of the translation. While it is often left out of the discussions in the spotlights, a good or bad translation may spell the doom of any appreciation of a series - I think most of us can agree that especially Tokyopop has at times a penchant for rather loose translation, so much so that a story has nothing to do anymore with the original. Lone Wolf and Cub I read in the Dark Horse version, which has an excellent translation indeed. First of all, a note is added by the translator on what will be translated and will remain in the Japanese, with a small glossary of those terms added at the end of each book. On the other hand, the translator doesn't fear using American dialect and slang at times to differentiate between different social strata. For once, this actually results in a book that is more readable, especially when those slight 'localisations' are contrasted to having other terms remain as transliterations. Simply put, Lone Wolf and Cub is in many senses a masterwork. It certainly has it weak spots, the sheer length being the reason for most of them, but these minor detractions are more than offset by the level of detail. Add to this a clear plot, an enormous amount of interesting characters, and a basic concept of the story that touches the entirety of the manga, and this manga has all the makings of a classic. Lone Wolf and Cub unequivocally gets a 'Yes!' from me. |
| You do not beg the sun for mercy. |
| I'm curious about the "no" on the re-vote. Any chance you could give us a reason Batmanfreak? |
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
santetjan said: The Lee Van Cleef: Herein lies also the first problem I have with Lone Wolf and Cub. There are simply too many chapters in which pain is taken to carefully set up a situation, only to have Itto intrude, completely mess up the situation by killing someone, before uttering some decorative proverb and leaving again, with not so much as a final note attached by the creators on the actual situation. Far too often, Itto's entrance has nothing to do with the situation: his role as an assassin makes him continuously re-usable without having him have anything to do with the situation displayed. After a while, it gets repetitive and forced, even if it is clear that these chapters are included for no reason but to showcase different parts of the setting. The above wouldn't have become a problem were it not for the length of the manga. With 300 pages a book, the 28 books contain about as much pages as 42 books of average size. In these 42 books, surprisingly little happens. The story is by and large divided into two arcs, one in which Itto is acting out his assassin role, and one in which he turns against those who did him wrong. This means that we're treated, again and again, to Itto offing someone with whom he has nothing to do, or to Itto fighting against ever-increasing hordes of enemies. This latter point becomes quite ridiculous as time goes on. Lone Wolf and Cub uses very little in the way of strange skills and powers, but tries to remain on the side of realism when it comes to the fights. While this is admirable in general, it becomes very difficult to believe the superhuman feats Itto starts performing when he is placed against ever greater odds: while I could live with him defeating a few assassins at once, him ploughing through an entire army is simply too much. Moreover, after a while you simply stop caring as yet another bunch of enemies appears and is summarily dealt with. Well, I came here to say exactly this. Much as I agree with all the details that make Lone Wolf and Cub influential, as well as its painstaking efforts in detailing its setting, the fact of the matter is that it's an episodic series running for 28 volumes. That's a problematic detail in of itself - though had it made its stories consistently fresh and compelling then I would have had no issue with it. Unfortunately, they aren't. Few stories are really memorable or anything special in of themselves, and as Santet detailed they tend to boil down to the exact same conclusion, making most of them blur together into something that is quite simply dull. I'm only 7 volumes in and already it's becoming a chore to read. |
| I was actually rather shocked when i first saw that this manga was up for spotlight, simply because the idea that a club that likes to call itself a Critics and Connoisseurs club, and pride itself on providing, "a list of highly recommended quality shows that are exemplary either within genre or universally", could make such a claim and not include Lone wolf and cub among its titles no more entered my mind than that of a ship being launched without a bottom. Lone wolf and cub is one the very few manga that transcends the realm of picture books that is manga (deal with it) and cement itself as a real work of Literature. I like manga as much as the next guy and even though i haven't read nearly as much as i would like to have, i think i can safely say there are very,very few that could stand on the golden stage of mankind that is world Literature. I want to try to avoid sounding too much like a smug prick or a wanna be hipster thing, but i think its safe to say that 99.9 percent of manga couldn't hold a candle to classic literature, like Dostoyevsky's Crime and Punishment or Hemingway's The sun also Rises (I know the name of books, WORSHIP ME!!!). And really, for the most part their not trying too, their fun and great for what they are in their own special way (christ I'm sounding like a school councillor). But Lone Wolf and Cub is one of the extremely few manga's that I believe could be considered a world classic. And maybe one day far in the Penguin publishers will pick it up and designate it as so. (Heres hoping almighty penguin god) The manga manages to create feelings in the reader that one usually only gets from reading some great writer of old, who so many have tried to imitate with each one sounding more and more like a faded copy of the last (see i just tried it too, and it sucked.) What I'm trying to say is that lone wolf and cub is one of the few manga's that makes your forget your reading a picture book written by someone in a weird ass country obsessed with vending machines and little sisters (Stereotype? Da fucks a stereotype?, Im sorry I'm Irish so I'm naturally drunk writing while this…jbgfksjdbgksbdkjzzzzzzzzzzz) and makes you feel like your reading a true classic in the classical sense, a classic classic if you will. For a proper understanding of why the series is so good, just read Archaeon's review, he's much better than me and at explaining things but one thing that I just want to zoom in on is the way this manga makes the reader feel. In a dumbed down world created so that average Joe won't bang his thick fucking skull on the door frame known as common sense, everything must be explained and spelled out for the viewer/reader, Lone wolf and cub has none of that shit, granted I'm not familiar with japanese history but still, the series treats its readers as intelligent adults who will take the time to try to understand exactly whats going on, rather than just give up. The series deal with a lot of mature and difficult themes throughout its run, such as revenge, prostitution, death, religion, the bonds of father and son, Honour, (and when i say deals with, i mean actually deals with, it doesn't just bring them up and than give a big speech about which side is right and why, then fuck off and never be heard of again). But more importantly the series always manages to extract emotions from the reader, (well me anyway..). Rather than some series' where you're just flicking throughout the dispensable pages feeling like if the earth exploded at that very moment you'd be okay with it, Lone Wolf and Cub holds you in its grasp for nearly every page, every sentence almost. If it wants you to feel sad then you will feel sad, if it wants you to feel conflicted you will feel conflicted! It achieves this through its masterful use of cinematography, (does that even make sense?) it knows exactly where to place characters in certain shots (shots?) and how to perfectly convey the tension in a scene or the feeling of dread in the eyes of man as he has his arm brutally cut from his body. Sometimes you forget your reading a manga and instead watching a Kurosawa movie. In some scenes its almost like you can hear the wind whistle as two great samurai meet and prepare to kill each other, or the screams of the victims unlucky enough to cross paths with Ogami Itto. The whole thing is… an experience, yes that a good term, a once in a life time experience. like any classic piece of literature it sweeps you off your feet and into its realm and holds you there until your sweating in fear as two greats meet to fight or questioning what is right and what is wrong, what is true strength, and is revenge a fools game… All i know is this series is a true classic in every sense of the word, and in my humble opinion probably the greatest manga ever written, and any club that professes to be a club of Connoisseurs that refuses to indict Lone Wolf and Cub, is a club i don't want any part of… |
OdysseusUlyssesMar 20, 2013 4:06 PM
| 29 chapters in—that's the cutoff!—and I can safely say this: Sorry, but Lone Wolf and Cub is not something that is even qualified to be an intermission act on the "golden stage of mankind that is world Literature." In fact, if not for the fact that it played a seminal role in the evolution of certain genres of manga in Japan and subsequently comics/graphic novels in the West, I don't feel that there is much reason at all to be talking about this protracted epic of poor storytelling, repetitive action, and shockingly lazy writing. But let's start with the good. The premise and early chapters of Lone Wolf and Cub were interesting and I took an immediate liking to the art style. The gritty and rough yet defined depictions of the characters and the oft-minimal yet always weighty backgrounds were ideal for creating the rugged atmosphere that is the strongest aspect of this work. I could see a more experienced reader of action-oriented manga finding fault in what might be called condensed depictions of combat, but as someone who is more interesting in just about everything other than the mechanics of the action itself, when it comes to fighting I actually often much prefer art that others might call simplistic. As for the premise, it succeeds at first in engaging the reader on multiple levels; the moral code and unique concepts of honor integrate seamlessly with the scenario and setting to draw the reader in. However, after a while we begin to run into some serious problems. The in-depth exploration that the reader is seemingly promised of the myriad themes that the work begins to tackle seems to be postponed indefinitely for a plot and cast of characters that is on-par with the most extreme excesses of Victorian literature. After a while, Lone Wolf and Cub just devolves into a seemingly endless cycle of uninspired (yet oh-so-very intricate and therefore good~) plot developments, gratuitous and increasingly unrealistic violence, and haphazard doses of third-party intervention. I'm now going to use this space to respond to a couple of points from the poster above me that I felt were particularly out of line. Lone wolf and cub is one the very few manga that transcends the realm of picture books that is manga (deal with it) and cement itself as a real work of Literature. What I'm trying to say is that lone wolf and cub is one of the few manga's that makes your forget your reading a picture book written by someone in a weird ass country obsessed with vending machines and little sisters (Stereotype? Da fucks a stereotype?, Im sorry I'm Irish so I'm naturally drunk writing while this…jbgfksjdbgksbdkjzzzzzzzzzzz) and makes you feel like your reading a true classic in the classical sense, a classic classic if you will. Leaving aside capital-L "Literature" for a moment, manga are picture books and we've already "dealt with it"; nobody is going to fight you on that one because this isn't a bad thing as you seem to be implying. If we didn't want to read and discuss picture books, then well, we wouldn't even be here in the first place. You make it seem as if it is desirable for a manga to make the reader forget that he or she is reading a graphic novel, which seems to indicate that you don't have a proper appreciation for the differences between different forms of art and have instead settled on some kind of hierarchy of art forms. Let me just say this: the best works of any given medium are often ones that make use of the unique features of their respective media and sometimes even explicitly make the person who is consuming the work aware of the medium itself. ...but one thing that I just want to zoom in on is the way this manga makes the reader feel. In a dumbed down world created so that average Joe won't bang his thick fucking skull on the door frame known as common sense, everything must be explained and spelled out for the viewer/reader, Lone wolf and cub has none of that shit...The series deal with a lot of mature and difficult themes throughout its run, such as revenge, prostitution, death, religion, the bonds of father and son, Honour, (and when i say deals with, i mean actually deals with, it doesn't just bring them up and than give a big speech about which side is right and why, then fuck off and never be heard of again). Okay, so you're saying that it's not a bad battle-shounen. That's usually a good first step, but I have two objections to your assessment. First off, I'd just like to quickly say that while Lone Wolf and Cub is commendable for broaching the topics that you mentioned without the cliché moralizing that we've often come to expect in this day and age, I can't say that the treatment that it gives them is always much better than that. For example, I found this slaughterfest’s treatment of death to be deeply unsatisfying. Does it actually affect Ogami or anyone else in this goddamn world? Fuck if I know cause he's too busy killing the shit out of everyone that he runs into. Ultimately not any better than any other work where our heroes butcher massive quantities of Stormtroopers. Second and more importantly, however, I must question your (innately problematic) assertion that this work is oh so very above all of those works intended for the “average Joe” with “no common sense” (see the problem here?) that everyone (I too am guilty of this) just loves to view with contempt. Just because something skimps a bit on exposition and assumes a certain amount and kind of antecedent knowledge from its reader doesn't automatically make something a more intelligent work or a better example of storytelling. Furthermore, Lone Wolf and Cub isn't even consistent with regards to its approach towards exposition. Despite being a graphic novel, it sometimes somehow someway manages to fail spectacularly for long periods at the basic writing concept of “show don't tell”—massive info-dumps via enormous stretches of explanatory dialogue seem an awful like “that shit” that you are so sure that “Lone wolf and cub has none of.” All i know is this series is a true classic in every sense of the word, and in my humble opinion probably the greatest manga ever written... Lone Wolf and Cub is not a "true classic in every sense of the word." It is certainly a seminal work, but that is the one and only way in which it is a "true classic." Take that away and you are left with a work that would struggle to merit induction into the 6/10 club of exceptionally above-average 6/10s. |
yuridiceMar 24, 2013 5:02 AM
| I must say Mr IHeartHitagi that i have to respectfully disagree with your opinion of Lone Wolf and Cub and say that you are quite simply misguided. (translation= You STUPID BASTARD, I'LL KILL Y….) IHeartHitagi said: I don't feel that there is much reason at all to be talking about this protracted epic of poor storytelling, repetitive action, and shockingly lazy writing. Poor storytelling, repetitive action, SHOCKINGLY LAZY WRITING!? What were you reading it through, a kaleidoscope? whoa, umm…. I really have no clue what to say to that…. (Bad human, bad human, you go into the corner and think about what you've done.) its like showing someone a great work of art, and them saying "what a piece of shit", you know they can't really think that and their just saying it to be a dick ( I'm not saying you're a dick (I'm implying it (just kidding))), but there are some things in the world which are just wonderful, they're facts of wonderbility (i didn't make that word up, you can't prove shit!). They create a certain feeling that all humans sense upon seeing them, and those who claim not too, are either lying or are simply sub-concisely going out of their way not to like it simply because they feel its to mainstream or overrated. Your entitled to your opinion but so are people who still believe the earth was created in 7 days by an almighty dictator, believe it all you want but your wrong… I know it sounds like I'm just saying I'm right and your wrong simply because…. but its true, there are some things which are just classics and people who don't think so are just wrong (those years at Fascist school are starting to pay off, worth every penny.) In what possible, humanly, conceivably, probable..(hold on gotta check my thesaurus), likely, perchance-able, God willingly way could the writing in Lone Wolf and cub be called LAZY! Was it lazy writing when, Ogami encounters another Rōnin, Bizen Shino Sakon, a master of the Mijin School Shiraha-Dori, a man who has abandoned his samurai status and chosen to live as a beggar, was it lazy writing when the two masters debated the right of the samurai to kill, how maybe all their talk of honour and their swords as their souls was nothing more than making excuses to justify the killing of the lower classes by those in power. Was it lazy writing when Bizen confronted Ogami on how his demon lust will eventually consume him, and how the road of revenge he walks is no life for his young son and will turn him into a heartless, soulless man. Was it lazy writing when we were reminded, that "no matter how many people you kill, countries you steal, fortunes you plunder or titles you earn, you will only ever cover half a straw mattress when you sit, one when you sleep and your stomach only holds a fistful of rice". Truly humbling words that many of todays leaders and business men would do well to read… "In death all we are is a fistful of ash…" Was it lazy writing when in order to kill a priest, Ogami must learn to kill that which does not exist, to achieve "Mu" a state of emptiness by journeying (in his mind) to become a gate-less barrier, "meet the Budda kill the Budda" to become a true merciless killer… able even to raise his sword against a god…. The only possible, humanly, conceivably, probable, likely, perchance-able, God willingly way that you could think this writing was lazy was because its very episodic, that because a lot of what happens has very little effect on Ogami or the overall story that its in some way (shudder..), lazy… Let me tell you now if you think that, then you've missed the point of lone wolf and cub entirely… The reason that Ogami isn't affected by killing so many people is that he was the Shoguns executioner, and a warrior all his life, now he walks the assassins road as a Demon. He is a monster, a pure assassin, he exists in hell, heck he was ready to kill his own son just after he was born if he choose a ball rather than a sword. But somewhere inside of him still exists the honourable man he once was, ("you would have happier at you dead mothers side… my poor child" he said with a tear in his eye, after his son chose the sword) Lone wolf and cub is at its core, realistic… Ogami is an assassin wondering all over Edo-period Japan, and just like real life not everything he does is important to the overall story of his life, everything doesn't neatly tie together at some point, not everyone he meets becomes a friend or an enemy, or come back into his life in some important way at some crucial moment. Real life isn't like that, life is a series of random events dictated by the choices we make. And lone and Cub depicts that beautifully, and while their is an overall story it should rather be treated as a series of parables almost, which make the bibles look like shit (which isn't hard). Lone wolf and cub is best enjoyed in small doses,thats when you get the most effect from it and so i recommend you leave it for a while and come back to it with an open mind, you won't regret it. IHeartHitagi said: it sometimes somehow someway manages to fail spectacularly for long periods at the basic writing concept of “show don't tell”—massive info-dumps via enormous stretches of explanatory dialogue seem an awful like “that shit” that you are so sure that “Lone wolf and cub has none of.” Im afraid I've never come across while reading this series at any point a "massive information dump" and therefore must resort back to my kaleidoscope theory… or that you lied…. pick one. |
OdysseusUlyssesMar 24, 2013 4:37 PM
HouseCoatMedia said: For whatever it's worth, I've definitely seen at least a handful of said infodumps.IHeartHitagi said: it sometimes somehow someway manages to fail spectacularly for long periods at the basic writing concept of “show don't tell”—massive info-dumps via enormous stretches of explanatory dialogue seem an awful like “that shit” that you are so sure that “Lone wolf and cub has none of.” Im afraid I've never come across while reading this series at any point a "massive information dump" and therefore must resort back to my kaleidoscope theory… or that you lied…. pick one. |
Lindle said: For whatever it's worth, I've definitely seen at least a handful of said infodumps. I dont know..., I'm sitting here with most of the series beside me flicking through it, and i cant find anything thats particularly info dumpy. There are some parts with a good bit of dialogue but its well paced out, and all of the info is important and usually quite interesting. Also it can often go 6 or 7 pages without a word so it all balances out quite perfectly i found. |
OdysseusUlyssesMar 25, 2013 5:31 PM
Lindle said: Well, I came here to say exactly this. Much as I agree with all the details that make Lone Wolf and Cub influential, as well as its painstaking efforts in detailing its setting, the fact of the matter is that it's an episodic series running for 28 volumes. That's a problematic detail in of itself - though had it made its stories consistently fresh and compelling then I would have had no issue with it. Unfortunately, they aren't. Few stories are really memorable or anything special in of themselves, and as Santet detailed they tend to boil down to the exact same conclusion, making most of them blur together into something that is quite simply dull. I'm only 7 volumes in and already it's becoming a chore to read. Upon rereading the first five volumes of Lone Wolf and Cub (as it's been a long time since I finished the manga), I can see where most of the complaints come from. Often ending with predicable outcomes and in bloodbaths, not many chapters stand out as individual tales. However, as you said, they are an important tool in fleshing out the story's setting, and equally important, providing background information about Ogami Itto's hellish quest for revenge. The main purpose of the first part of the manga (episodic in format) is of contextualization and exposition, which becomes evident as the main storyline unfolds and the Yagyu clan, target of Itto's revenge, becomes a more prominent figure. Indeed, contrary to what it seemed to you, the episodic chapters are only a part of the manga. The other part, making use of the foundations previously laid out, has a clear narrative focus and a cohesive storyline. Comparatively, Lone Wolf and Cub's format, albeit less compact and consisting of a considerably bigger number of individual stories, is similar to GitS: SAC's, where the Stand Alone episodes introduce, elaborate and expand upon various themes and technological concepts which are later utilized in the elaboration and contextualization of the Laughing Man case, which composes the main storyline. I would heavily recommend finishing the rest of the story before deciding which stance to take, as it is simply not possible to make a fair judgment based solely on the first few volumes of the manga. Lone Wolf and Cub, even if not entirely effectively, takes it time to build up the main narrative. Fortunately, the payoff is worth it. |
Lindle said: Well, I came here to say exactly this. Much as I agree with all the details that make Lone Wolf and Cub influential, as well as its painstaking efforts in detailing its setting, the fact of the matter is that it's an episodic series running for 28 volumes. That's a problematic detail in of itself - though had it made its stories consistently fresh and compelling then I would have had no issue with it. Unfortunately, they aren't. Few stories are really memorable or anything special in of themselves, and as Santet detailed they tend to boil down to the exact same conclusion, making most of them blur together into something that is quite simply dull. I'm only 7 volumes in and already it's becoming a chore to read. I don't feel that there's much more that can be said about this manga. Besides the fact that the final battle was terrible |
| Dunno, it's much better written than most manga, but I have the same issues with cohesion as some other readers here have mentioned - unless the stories have been exquisitely chosen, a story both serialized and episodic is going to falter. It does have some great scenes involving the elaboration/discussion of its themes, but these themes are incredibly recurrent in manga, anime, and the more nationalist periods of Japanese literature. OdysseusUlysses said: I like manga as much as the next guy and even though i haven't read nearly as much as i would like to have, i think i can safely say there are very,very few that could stand on the golden stage of mankind that is world Literature. I want to try to avoid sounding too much like a smug prick or a wanna be hipster thing, but i think its safe to say that 99.9 percent of manga couldn't hold a candle to classic literature, like Dostoyevsky's Crime and Punishment or Hemingway's The sun also Rises (I know the name of books, WORSHIP ME!!!). Yeah, neither can this. In a shorter work, I could tolerate the divide between the protagonist's supposed depths and his absolute resignation to mass slaughter like a character in Shaman King, but... it's too long to justify. Any metaphysical or moral discussion here is utterly useless for several reasons, but the most problematic is the fact it has no impact on behavior. The incongruity between the tone in these discussions and the tone of the action scenes is difficult to reconcile, albeit an issue many, many, manga have. The mostly silent heavily badass main character is a super boring plot point. Lastly the child is not used at all as a screw in the wheel of the genre this work exists in to explore what could change or how Overall would maybe barely slip in a yes from me. Disagree that its the most influential piece of literature to come from Japan tho... maybe your parents know what it is, but mine certainly don't |
Mayuka said: did you call holier than thou bitch right here last.fm |
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