| I gotta say I like the decision to go for the original titles. Anime is a Japanese medium, using all American names here has always seemed kinda silly to me. But I do agree if people want their entire list full of dub names, they should be able to have a toggle for it.. just don't make the dub names the default. -Shuda- said: Spice and Wolf should be changed back regardless. It was always "Spice and Wolf", it's licensed as "Spice and Wolf" and I can assume more people know it as "Spice and Wolf." Why should they make some random exceptions? The point is to make one universal rule for the names. |
RyanSaotomeNov 24, 2012 12:05 AM
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| I would like to have the option to display English titles. Over time, I've found a good chunk of the the shows I've watched have changed over to their Japanese titles. I don't know half of the titles in my list by name anymore. It's annoying. At this rate, I might as well just keep a text document of the things I watch. What's the point of having this elaborate site to rate anime when I can't even check my own list to see what I rated an anime? Spice and Wolf not found in list? Oh, that's because it's Ookami to Koushinryou now >_>. How long before this site starts calling Ghost in the Shell Koukaku Kidouta? |
Arcane587Nov 24, 2012 6:51 AM
| It seems to me that this is going to make a large number of people unhappy, no matter what you do. Some people use a mix of Romaji and English titles (Including me, who watches almost exclusively fansub), and having everything one way or the other would make these guys extremely angry. The best way to do this, I think, would be to implement a voting feature where people simply vote on their favorite title for each show, with 1 vote per account. Stick it somewhere obvious on the database pages, where it can't be missed, and use whatever title has the highest vote count as the default title. Of course, the people who want all Romaji or all English wouldn't like this, but they can't really argue that the other titles aren't more popular than theirs if they lost a vote. I think the best course of action to please everyone would be to mix in the two plans. Implement the English/Romaji toggle, but then add in a separate Most Popular setting and set that as the default. That way, the people who want english can pick english; the people who want Romaji can get romaji; and the people who want the common titles get just that. |
| Hey can't someone just codeup a script for firefox/chrome or something that allows people to rename your shows whatever you want? I mean if you want to personally change something like "Boku No Tomodachi" to "HaremShit" or something you'd be able to do it. That also makes it easier for the people who prefer it in English and the people who prefer it in Romaji. They can just change it themselves and the mods don't have to do anything. It would surely fix quite a lot of conflict. |
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nznznz said: I wonder why you even started all this. You basically created a lot of work for the whole administration and eventually won't come up with a solution that the majority of your userbase is going to like. You changed a running system without any need. There probably was the occasional disgruntled user that demanded an explanation why a certain title was chosen, or internal discussions among the moderators about what title would be best. But was dealing with it so much worse than what we have now? Is all the time and effort you have to invest worth it? My preference is "most popular title" or simply the way it used to be. This doesn't have to be as complicated as you make it out to be. Looking at the examples you gave at the beginning I bet you already knew which titles would work and which won't. And for those cases when it's not as clear cut, just come up with some guidelines e.g. most google hits, moderator vote, etc. This would probably net the most satisfaction among your userbase while requiring the least amout of work on your end. examples: "Spice and Wolf" 21,900,000 results > "Ookami to Koushinryou" 1,460,000 results "Asu no Yoichi!" 16,500,000 results > "Samurai Harem" 52,200 results "Sakamichi no Apollon" 15,100,000 results > "Kids on the Slope" 1,810,000 results You could even write a simple script that googles all available titles and uses the most popular as default. Script for Google hits doesn't seem at all like a bad idea to me. I actually have already learned some Japanese due to the title revisions, and that's kinda cool, but yeah. At the end of the day, this is a usability issue. And it's true that as regards entertainment, the most recognizable name is the most user friendly. It perhaps would have been a better move to implement these guidelines starting now and to the future, rather than applying them to everything retroactively. You'd still get the consistency, it would just be date dependent (all titles after X date would be roomaji). As was pointed out, the newer stuff people are more able to accept the straight-up Japanese title for (with few exceptions). But a majority of older stuff this isn't true for. Also, while I do enjoy learning new words, it is kinda tedious that now I can't recognize half of my list on sight and will have to look each entry up multiple times before I memorize what matches what. Same for looking at other user's lists. This just saps up a huge amount of my time (I've got 244 titles in my list, for cripe's sake!) and greatly reduces overall usability. Also, I am more of a fan of letting us choose from all of the synonyms per title over an "all or nothing" feature. I've never worked on databases serving such a huge website, but can imagine based on how they are set up that including this function could be potentially horrific as regards memory and server strain. However, if the synonyms are already being stored in some fashion, I've gotta believe that there's a workable solution to this. |
Sheikmaster32 said: Hey can't someone just codeup a script for firefox/chrome or something that allows people to rename your shows whatever you want? I mean if you want to personally change something like "Boku No Tomodachi" to "HaremShit" or something you'd be able to do it. That also makes it easier for the people who prefer it in English and the people who prefer it in Romaji. They can just change it themselves and the mods don't have to do anything. It would surely fix quite a lot of conflict. Lol I just used a script for firefox called "FoxReplace" to replace all the names I prefer their English titles to back to the way they were before. And if you're into MLP (I'm not) you could always use your little ponify addon and just use it for the site. I get what I want and no admins had to code anything! |
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Sheikmaster32 said: Sheikmaster32 said: Hey can't someone just codeup a script for firefox/chrome or something that allows people to rename your shows whatever you want? I mean if you want to personally change something like "Boku No Tomodachi" to "HaremShit" or something you'd be able to do it. That also makes it easier for the people who prefer it in English and the people who prefer it in Romaji. They can just change it themselves and the mods don't have to do anything. It would surely fix quite a lot of conflict. Lol I just used a script for firefox called "FoxReplace" to replace all the names I prefer their English titles to back to the way they were before. And if you're into MLP (I'm not) you could always use your little ponify addon and just use it for the site. I get what I want and no admins had to code anything! If you could do that then the mods could actually just continue converting the rest of the db to Romanji. It could be a substitute for the toggle while other users wait for its implementation and it has the advantage of converting to English titles that you choose instead of the all or nothing that they propose. ...you do need Firefox though. Maybe one for Opera? |
| I remember asking about the possibility of being able to choose the display language for titles a few years ago, because it was something I really wanted at the time, and getting a somewhat-noncommittal answer. That was well before this most recent round of name changes, and I hadn't really looked at my Completed list for a while, but...dear lord. Certain titles were bad enough before, but this is on a whole new level. I like to think I'm a reasonably-intelligent guy, so when I don't even recognize a few of my favorite series by name, something has gone horribly wrong. Like, I understand the desire to implement a coherent naming scheme across the entire database, and if that means going by the romanji title for most series, then so be it. But there are certain instances where that choice doesn't seem to make any sense. There are certain shows that have an official English title not just in the sense of being translated when licensed for US release, but from the original Japanese as well. And it's usually pretty self-evident when this is the case: for instance, Paranoia Agent's original Japanese title text, right in the opening, has the English translation right under the kanji. The same is true for Voices of a Distant Star, and The Place Promised in our Early Days, and I'm sure a number of other examples. In those cases, where you have a direct word-of-God translation right on the title screen, why in the world would you use the romanji instead? I'd be willing to bet there isn't a single English-speaking viewer who has ever referred to Paranoia Agent as "Mousou Dairinin," because why in the world would they? And yet that's how it shows up on my list. (Interestingly, Cross Game, which also has its English translation right in the title screen, is still listed under that name. Go figure.) But yeah, individual title squabbling aside, consider this a huge +1 for adding some sort of language display option. It's extremely annoying to look down my list, a list I'm theoretically supposed to be using to organize my viewing, and not even recognize a bunch of stuff I see on it at first glance. I shouldn't have to look up translations for series I've known under a single name for years. |
Sheikmaster32 said: Lol I just used a script for firefox called "FoxReplace" to replace all the names I prefer their English titles to back to the way they were before. Very neat tip. Thank you! |
| Just use the Romaji title. Put the "translated" or "English" title in the synonyms, and the Kanji title will be as is with the stylization such as "魔法少女まどか★マギカ" Purgatory knows where "Puella Magi" even freaking came from. Unless the Kanji title is something like "プリンセスチュチュ" then it's clear that it's okay to use "Princess Tutu" It isn't even "チュチュ姫" unlike "もののけ姫" So as long as it's not originally read "Chuchu Hime" then it shall follow through with the Katakana. |
| What Branduil said. |
| I cleaned out some posts that did not meet the Site & Forum Guidelines, included pointless arguing, and/or did not discuss the toggle function at all. I also amended my post to include: December 2nd Update: As I wrote previously, a toggle option would not allow you to pick and choose your own titles. However, it has come to my attention that there are a range of browser extensions which can do this for you. - Firefox: FoxReplace - Opera: RePlaceTeXt - Chrome: Ponify (they don't seem to have anything better...) A few comments: givemeabreak432 said: People make duplicate accounts to rate up/down anime and to spam unhelpful votes on reviews; they'll do the same with this.The best way to do this, I think, would be to implement a voting feature where people simply vote on their favorite title for each show, with 1 vote per account. Stick it somewhere obvious on the database pages, where it can't be missed, and use whatever title has the highest vote count as the default title. Tsumayouji said: This idea doesn't work as easily as you think. See Detective Conan, for example: all the titles are currently fan translations. The licensed title is "Case Closed" and the romanised title "Meitantei Conan". So with not applying them retroactively, half of these titles would have fan-english titles and the rest from some arbitrary date would have romanised titles. That's even more confusing.It perhaps would have been a better move to implement these guidelines starting now and to the future, rather than applying them to everything retroactively. sm said: Uh, it's neither contradictory nor hypocritical. Why should a word which has been transcribed into katakana then be transcribed back into roman letters, rather than just using the original word? That's like taking a paragraph of text and putting it through google translate twice instead of just using the original paragraph.>We want to romanize all titles. >Note: Loanwords are not, and never will be, directly transcribed from their katakana, so please do not worry that Cowboy Bebop will become Kauboi Bibappu. This is contradictory and hypocritical. Either change all or change none. Top_Gun said: Yes, it is becoming increasingly more common for Japanese creators to include an English title. However, this title is not always the licensed title and it isn't always the most well known title either. For example, Chuunibyou demo Koi ga Shitai! would then become "Regardless of My Adolescent Delusions of Grandeur, I Want a Date!".There are certain shows that have an official English title not just in the sense of being translated when licensed for US release, but from the original Japanese as well. Top_Gun said: The Japanese title is クロスゲーム, which is the transcription of "Cross Game" in katakana. As I stated, loanwords never have been nor will be transcribed from their katakana. It has nothing to do with "Cross Game" being seen in the logo.(Interestingly, Cross Game, which also has its English translation right in the title screen, is still listed under that name. Go figure.) |
KinetaDec 2, 2012 5:07 AM
| I like this whole drive for consistency. The English names are listed as alternate titles, the search should still be able to find them using the English titles, so I don't see a problem here. I think the main title should be the (romanised) original title and I also name the files accordingly on my PC, sometimes putting the English one in brackets behind it. Also: |
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| I'd like that, a Show English Title feature |
| The alternative titles are already there, so a feature to switch between them as a user preference would obviously be the best choice. Doing anything other than that is incredibly counter-productive and frankly a complete waste of time. |
| You should be able to choose the title you wish to display. There should be an option when you go to edit your entry ENG Title/Original Title. No one calls Spice & Wolf, Ookami to Koushinryou. Just like no one calls Higurashi no naku koro ni, "When they cry." How is it not possible to have an option to choose for individual titles. It was perfectly fine the way it was. I read the original post and I feel that most of it are elaborate excuses. No one was complaining before, and now we are. Most popular title, or the option to choose individually. I'm with nznznz on this. Consistency? Really that important? New titles obviously keep the japanese name. Just because it gets licensed, doesn't mean the name should change. There are simply classic anime out there that should keep their most popular classic title. Spice and Wolf, Ah My Goddess, Welcome to NHK, Paranoia Agent are four prime examples. Nobody calls these by their japanese names. |
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| Many peoples are suggesting and waiting for toggle option and i don't know how they want it to work? Do you want an option where all titles completely change to english or you want an option to switch every title separately. if it's the later then you already have extensions suggested in first post.. I support popular english titles to stay in english but what's done is done and it's not going to change and there are few popular english titles compared to all other romaji titles on the site, which everyone remembers by their official name and can easy find in their list. If toggle option actually switch everything to english, i think there will be lot more complains than now and many peoples won't even bother to use this great new feature (which they asked for and administration worked on it while leaving many other broken things) because they're already got used to all other romaji titles. So i think this toggle option is not the exact solution unless you've option to choose title by yourself for every separate entry, where you actually want an english title like ghibli movies. Maybe few users will be happy who actually want every single title in english and will try to get use to new names like "Fighting Spirit" and seriously if there are users like that, i don't know what is the problem getting use to few romaji titles like "Sen to Chihiiro no Kamikakushi". I would rather want admins to work on stability/security of the site instead this and fix things which are broken. |
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Han-yuu said: I support popular english titles to stay in english but what's done is done and it's not going to change It's probably easier to just change those titles in question back instead of going through with all this. |
nznznz said: Han-yuu said: I support popular english titles to stay in english but what's done is done and it's not going to change It's probably easier to just change those titles in question back instead of going through with all this. If it was that easier then you won't have to see all these walls of text, debate, complains, suggestion and hundreds of posts in this and all previous related topics. So unfortunately it's not easier. I think we just need to move on. We will get use to them soon. Luckily most of them are not as long as "Ore no Imouto ga Konnani Kawaii Wake ga Nai". Looking at my list. I just noticed, "Kaiji" title changed to "Gyakkyou Burai Kaiji: Ultimate Survivor". Next time i need to look for "G" titles in my list until i get use to it. |
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Han-yuu said: I would rather want admins to work on stability/security of the site instead this and fix things which are broken. Yeah because we all know how much more secure the site has gotten...*cough*ssjloser*cough* I personally would love the option for changing individual titles. Like keeping Spice and Wolf, but still call Gintama "GINTAMA" instead of "Silver Soul" |
IcecreamManwich said: Gintama wouldn't be changed, we already addressed this on the previous page.Han-yuu said: I would rather want admins to work on stability/security of the site instead this and fix things which are broken. Yeah because we all know how much more secure the site has gotten...*cough*ssjloser*cough* I personally would love the option for changing individual titles. Like keeping Spice and Wolf, but still call Gintama "GINTAMA" instead of "Silver Soul" |
     Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
| My opinion: The most popular title should be the one displayed on the anime page, forum discussions and on our lists. The Main/English title toggle option is a pointless waste of time which for most people simply shifts the issue, instead of fixing it. The problem is unrecognisable entries in our anime lists. This toggle option would seek to replace unknown Japanese titles, only to in turn deliver unknown English titles. Would you rather be punched in the face, or in the stomach? You have a choice, but neither is good. Word replacement via extensions is not a solution. By default, anime and manga lists are displayed alphabetically by title. Simply replacing the words does not change the order they are displayed in. It becomes like a filing system which is there is no system. It's also just plain inconvenient to create and maintain this replacement list. Sorry, but this (whilst not totally false) is a weak, dodge argument. It is very clear in the vast majority of cases which the popular title for an anime or manga is. In the small number of edge cases, a simple vote between admins or even a poll on the anime page could serve as a tiebreaker. Even the suggestion of Google search results numbers could work. This is like the problem with some government regulation; there is no room for common sense or discretion. Basically, the documented complaints of 40 people mean nothing, but the suggestion of one person was all it took to trigger sweeping changes that would affect everyone. I am however still in disbelief that you would actually suggest only 40 people have a problem with these changes. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say it was a silly mistake, because otherwise it's a very disingenuous attempt at skewing the facts. Silence != agreement. Part of what I object to is the fact we are having these changes explained, rather than discussing whether they should be implemented in the first place. Let's be honest here, the only ones whom these changes help are the database admins. Whilst I'm all for making their jobs easier, it shouldn't come at the cost of a good user experience. My solutions:
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Paffendorf said: For the search bar? You will be able to look up the romaji or the english name and have the same result pop up which will be the romaji name(only will it be english on your list) the english name will be listed under the alternate names on the left of the anime page.Will I be able to search the romaji and find the english anime page if this is the case? |
Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
| Black Butler is now "Kuroshitsuji" WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT Who's gonna remember that?! lol Give us an option to change it back! I refer you again to the name of the website: MYanimelist - Not YOURanimelist! |
who_dat_ninjaDec 15, 2012 3:02 PM
IcecreamManwich said: Well, I believe that would actually be the most popular title.Black Butler is now "Kuroshitsuji" WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT Who's gonna remember that?! lol Give us an option to change it back! I refer you again to the name of the website: MYanimelist - Not YOURanimelist! |
| I'm pretty sure Black Butler was always listed as Kuroshitsuji. |
| Okay I have not read through all the replies, but I did read the whole original post. I think having a toggle to use official english names would be great! It would be even better if you could set each title individually. I have an alternative suggestion though. Maybe make it so that when you hover the cursor over a title in your list it displays the Official English title? I'm not a programmer, so I don't know how hard that would be, or if it would be possible, but that seems like a good feature to have. |
fullmetal_adam said: IcecreamManwich said: Well, I believe that would actually be the most popular title.Black Butler is now "Kuroshitsuji" WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT Who's gonna remember that?! lol Give us an option to change it back! I refer you again to the name of the website: MYanimelist - Not YOURanimelist! I disagree. Everyone i talk to refer to it as Black Butler. No one says Kuroshitsuji. But why am i arguing, the moderators are never gonna do anything about this anyway. Better go and learn some Japanese so i can actually make out what anime is on my list. -_- |
IcecreamManwich said: I disagree. Everyone i talk to refer to it as Black Butler. No one says Kuroshitsuji. But why am i arguing, the moderators are never gonna do anything about this anyway. Better go and learn some Japanese so i can actually make out what anime is on my list. -_- I certainly know Kuroshitosuji as main title since day one. MAL listed it as Kuroshitsuji since day one as far as i remember. The only reason i know "Black Butler" english title is thanks to some manga sites and deviantart. This topic is all about other popular english titles like Ghibli movies, Space & Wolf etc. I'm sure you're mistaking it listed as Black Butler on MAL. |
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IcecreamManwich said: I disagree. Everyone i talk to refer to it as Black Butler. No one says Kuroshitsuji. Google says: Kuroshitsuji: 10,700,000 results "Black Butler": 6,030,000 results |
| I apologize if this topic has been worn to death, but this has been frustrating me for the longest time and I feel like I have to make a clear and concise argument about this. I can only hope the database moderator is able to, at some point, read this--and know that I have read the first post and am not jumping into the debate blind. The conversion of database titles to their romaji titles has long passed the point of being ridiculous. The most sound argument that has been presented is that most of the site's patrons view fansubs and are thus more familiar with the Japanese title of a show. I fully acknowledge that this is true for many cases. But I don't believe for a second that more people know the movie as "Sen to Chihiro no Kamikakushi" than do know it as "Spirited Away." And even if it were universally true that all of the database titles currently in romaji are best known by their Japanese titles, there is a key factor that has been thus far overlooked in this entire situation: Context. When someone, 1) prefers subtitled anime, and 2) has seen the show, then sure, they'll recognize "Mousou Dairinin." When someone prefers subtitled anime and hasn't seen the show, they have no idea what they're looking at. When someone prefers dubbed anime, whether they have or haven't seen the show, they don't know what they're looking at. It's gibberish. Even if the first of these four audiences hypothetically accounts for 60% of the total, that's one audience who recognizes the title and three who are completely clueless and without leads unless they actually visit the page--which is obviously not feasible in a database of this size. Conversely, when someone who prefers dubbed anime and has seen the show sees "Paranoia Agent," they recognize it; when someone who's seen it subbed sees "Paranoia Agent," odds are they'll recognize it as well, because in about 95% of cases, those who only watch subtitled anime have at least heard of the English title. Those who have never seen or heard of the series can get the gist of what it's about by the title--that's the all-important role of context. If a database title is in Japanese, you either recognize it or you don't, period. If it's in English, one can usually figure out what they're looking at--or at least at a MUCH higher success rate. I understand that the "conversion" is an ongoing process and that it's a lot of work for all of the database moderators. Thing is, it's a lot more work than updating an entry once when its English licensure is confirmed. I'd like to make it clear that I am NOT saying that the English title of a series should always be used by default, nor that the site should translate titles that aren't licensed in English countries. That would just be impractical for the users and infeasible for the staff. I can appreciate the amount of work that has gone and is going into maintaining such a massive database as is used by this site, but the database is no good to the users if they can't read their own lists. Bottom line: If a feature is in the works that will allow users to choose between R1 and romaji database titles and is projected for completion in under a year's time, great--I say press on. If not, I urge administration to use titles that are not only recognizable to people who HAVE seen a series in its Japanese form. Database titles should either be determined by the title of the R1 DVD/VHS release, defaulting to romaji if no such licensure exists, or--perhaps preferably--by Wikipedia. It may sound odd to suggest that one database site rely on information from another, but in the vast majority of cases, Wikipedia uses the title most appropriate for the database. Most Ghibli movies are listed by their licensed English titles while, say, Urusei Yatsura retains its Japanese title (because you, me, and Wikipedia all know that nobody calls the series by its short-lived English title, "Those Obnoxious Aliens"). Keeping a database in which all of the entries use their licensed titles is no more or less consistent than keeping one in which all of the titles are in romaji. These are the site's two options, and the former has perks in an English-speaking community which the latter lacks. Mod Edit: Merged second post into first. |
KinetaJan 19, 2013 3:36 AM
XTApocalypse said: Not for fansub watchers(who are the majority), when the anime is licensed they are already used to the romaji. So the good thing for those viewers would be to keep the romaji, but you can't keep some romaji and let the others be in English because then there are the inconsistencies that they spoke of.Keeping a database in which all of the entries use their licensed titles is no more or less consistent than keeping one in which all of the titles are in romaji. These are the site's two options, and the former has perks in an English-speaking community which the latter lacks. And a good portion of the users on here don't have English as their first language, so I don't see how having them in English would be better for them. And people would be able to have the licensed English in their list, be able to tell the name to people however they want, and would be able to search up the English name and come up with the same anime. So I don't see the problem. Mod Edit: Quoted post was merged into another post, so modified it here as well. |
KinetaJan 20, 2013 3:42 AM
Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
IntroverTurtle said: You can if you focus on recognition. I'm still not convinced there's a point to the consistency.but you can't keep some romaji and let the others be in English because then there are the inconsistencies that they spoke of. Incidentally, I watched Spirited away as "Čudežno Potovanje" (Wondrous Journey) and still refer to it as Spirited Away because that's what it's called in all the English communities I frequent such as MAL. Granted, Slovenia is a really small and miscellaneous country, but I'd be surprised if any country's anime fans were more in touch directly with the Japanese scene than with the English one. I can't be the only foreigner that vastly prefers to deal with anime in English. |
IntroverTurtle said: XTApocalypse said: Not for fansub watchers(who are the majority), when the anime is licensed they are already used to the romaji. So the good thing for those viewers would be to keep the romaji, but you can't keep some romaji and let the others be in English because then there are the inconsistencies that they spoke of.Keeping a database in which all of the entries use their licensed titles is no more or less consistent than keeping one in which all of the titles are in romaji. These are the site's two options, and the former has perks in an English-speaking community which the latter lacks. And a good portion of the users on here don't have English as their first language, so I don't see how having them in English would be better for them. And people would be able to have the licensed English in their list, be able to tell the name to people however they want, and would be able to search up the English name and come up with the same anime. So I don't see the problem. I'm assuming you read none of my large, argumentative post just above, as all of this is addressed there. Nonetheless, I will restate my points for clarity. In the VAST majority of cases, fansub viewers are familiar with both the English and Japanese titles of a series. When I say "Fullmetal Alchemist," "Sgt. Frog," or "Grave of the Fireflies," you instantly know what I'm referring to. This is an English-speaking site populated for the most part by English-speaking regions, so there's a certain inherent familiarity with whatever the licensed titles are. When we see advertisements, those are the titles we see. We all recognize them. Conversely, show someone who's never heard the Japanese title "Hagane no Renkinjutsushi," and they have no clue what you're referring to. Point number one. Point number two: Context. The above logic applies to the vast majority of people--but wait, there's more! Even if you've never heard of an anime in your life, if it's licensed and has an English title, most English-speakers can get a lot more out of the title than if it were a bunch of arbitrary Japanese syllables. If the title is in Japanese, either you recognize it or you don't--there is no middle ground. See "Fullmetal Alchemist," and you can probably imagine that alchemy is in some way involved in the show. And if you were looking for a show with no lead other than that it involved alchemy, and you perform a search on this site, which is easier to navigate: A list of English results in which you can use context to narrow down what you're looking for, or a list of all-romaji titles--none of which you recognize--in which you have to click on each individual result in order to find out anything about it? The whole situation also affects how willing new members are to join the site, especially those new to the anime community as a whole. The all-romaji option's logic is "Serve the anime diehards, to hell with the rest." The licensed titles option's logic is "Serve everyone, even if the service is less specialized." Mod Edit: Quoted post was merged into another post, so modified it here as well. |
KinetaJan 20, 2013 3:42 AM
NyuuuuSaaaan said: Well of course you're not convinced, because you don't know the exact details. But I don't think the Mods would want to do such a large scale thing for no reason, they obviously have thought that this is the best and most efficient way to organize the database.IntroverTurtle said: You can if you focus on recognition. I'm still not convinced there's a point to the consistency.but you can't keep some romaji and let the others be in English because then there are the inconsistencies that they spoke of. Incidentally, I watched Spirited away as "Čudežno Potovanje" (Wondrous Journey) and still refer to it as Spirited Away because that's what it's called in all the English communities I frequent such as MAL. Granted, Slovenia is a really small and miscellaneous country, but I'd be surprised if any country's anime fans were more in touch directly with the Japanese scene than with the English one. I can't be the only foreigner that vastly prefers to deal with anime in English. That's the thing, if you leave the old anime in their English, why not the rest. And this is also for the future, 100s of anime are aired each year in Japan. The people who are watching it while airing would be more in touch with the romaji name rather than the licensed name that could take an anime years to get. And like I said a little up there, if they keep all the new anime in romaji, then why not the rest. |
Short of the day: Monotonous Purgatory(MAL) ✰Public Domain Club | One Piece Club✰ |
| I don't think you understand what's going on. In the past, the database WAS such that all of the entries used their licensed titles. The process of converting all of those existing entries into pure romaji is what's going on NOW. I'm arguing against the change, whereas you are arguing for it--not vice-versa. And it should be obvious: Once news of the licensure is confirmed, people start to familiarize themselves with the licensed name. No one is suggesting that the site discover the secret to time travel--when a series is introduced to Japan, it is added to the database using its original title, and IF the series is licensed in the English-speaking world under a different title, that title takes prominence. Series which are without licenses would remain in their romaji form because that's what people are going to refer to them as. With licensed titles, 95% of users recognize them and the other 5% can still get SOME use out of them through the magic of context. With romaji titles, 60% of users recognize them and the other 40% are left out to dry. As far as the moderators comment goes, this thread exists for the purpose of expressing user opinion on the title changes. A moderator started the thread for that very purpose, just look at the first post. If the matter had been absolutely resolved and moderation wasn't willing to hear any feedback about it, this thread wouldn't exist, so your argument is invalid. |
XTApocalypse said: This actually isn't true...just so you know.In the past, the database WAS such that all of the entries used their licensed titles. XTApocalypse said: I disagree. I am of the opinion that most popular title should be given precedence. I would give Sakamichi no Apollon as an example. Whilst I never watched the show, it only came out this year and has already been licensed under the name "Kids on the Slope". When I first heard that I had no idea what it was, because I primarily watch fansubs and was already familiar with the original title, and will continue to be familiar with it. The point made in the OP about the majority of the community watching fansubs is a valid one. What the OP has however failed to recognise is that this wasn't always the case. Even 5 years ago the number of people in this community who watched fansubs would be drastically reduced. What about 10 years ago? Age gives context to the fansub argument, but was completely ignored, just as the opposition to the change has been....And it should be obvious: Once news of the licensure is confirmed, people start to familiarize themselves with the licensed name. No one is suggesting that the site discover the secret to time travel--when a series is introduced to Japan, it is added to the database using its original title, and IF the series is licensed in the English-speaking world under a different title, that title takes prominence. Series which are without licenses would remain in their romaji form because that's what people are going to refer to them as. With licensed titles, 95% of users recognize them and the other 5% can still get SOME use out of them through the magic of context. With romaji titles, 60% of users recognize them and the other 40% are left out to dry. Most popular title works in favour of this fansub watching community without doing anything crazy like changing the well-known title of a Studio Ghibli movie that was licensed and released in English 10 years ago. Mod Edit: Removed quote of a deleted post. |
KinetaJan 19, 2013 3:37 AM
fullmetal_adam said: XTApocalypse said: This actually isn't true...just so you know.In the past, the database WAS such that all of the entries used their licensed titles. "All" is, of course, a generalization. But it was certainly a dozen times closer than it is now. fullmetal_adam said: XTApocalypse said: I disagree. I am of the opinion that most popular title should be given precedence. I would give Sakamichi no Apollon as an example. Whilst I never watched the show, it only came out this year and has already been licensed under the name "Kids on the Slope". When I first heard that I had no idea what it was, because I primarily watch fansubs and was already familiar with the original title, and will continue to be familiar with it. The point made in the OP about the majority of the community watching fansubs is a valid one. What the OP has however failed to recognise is that this wasn't always the case. Even 5 years ago the number of people in this community who watched fansubs would be drastically reduced. What about 10 years ago? Age gives context to the fansub argument, but was completely ignored, just as the opposition to the change has been....And it should be obvious: Once news of the licensure is confirmed, people start to familiarize themselves with the licensed name. No one is suggesting that the site discover the secret to time travel--when a series is introduced to Japan, it is added to the database using its original title, and IF the series is licensed in the English-speaking world under a different title, that title takes prominence. Series which are without licenses would remain in their romaji form because that's what people are going to refer to them as. With licensed titles, 95% of users recognize them and the other 5% can still get SOME use out of them through the magic of context. With romaji titles, 60% of users recognize them and the other 40% are left out to dry. Most popular title works in favour of this fansub watching community without doing anything crazy like changing the well-known title of a Studio Ghibli movie that was licensed and released in English 10 years ago. Right. It works in favor of the fansub-watching community. And ONLY that fansub watching community. When discussing a title that's only just been released, much less licensed, then of course people aren't going to know what it is. The first time you ever heard "Sakamichi no Apollon," you had no idea what it was, either; you'd have to be provided information on the series before you can make that connection with the title. And the point remains: As we are, right here and right now, you DO know what it is. If you saw it in a list, you would recognize it. It's just slightly more convenient for you to have the Japanese title because you can recognize it a fraction of a second faster. Which is ultimately what I'm talking about. The "most popular" you speak of is not nearly so black and white. The current system is avoiding a slight inconvenience for the 60% at the cost of completely leaving out the 40%, whereas licensed titles (keeping in mind that this DOES NOT MEAN all-English titles--many series are licensed and advertised under their original Japanese titles, such as Urusei Yatsura, Seikon no Qwaser, and Rurouni Kenshin) are recognizable to a much larger majority, and even those who don't recognize the titles can work with them. Which brings us back to my biggest and most prominent point: Context, context, context, context, context. I cannot say that enough. It is the single most important thing that an all-romaji database lacks, and what makes it so important is the fact that it does not exclude anybody. Romaji titles serve only those who recognize them and are nothing but Japanese syllabic gibberish to anyone else. "Sen to Chihiro no Kamikakushi" means absolutely nothing to someone who doesn't already know the title and doesn't speak Japanese. "Spirited Away" gives them a clue as to what the movie may be about. Not to mention that when you see banner ads, promotional videos, trailers, product inserts, and ANYTHING else related to a licensed anime series, you're going to see the licensed title. What's more, even assuming there's a 60% to 75% majority of people who generally lean towards fansubs, that doesn't mean that that entire group of people is more familiar with the Japanese title--the two are by no means mutually inclusive. And in my personal experience, I've never encountered fansub viewers who use anything but the licensed title in all the fansub sites and groups I've been to, barring a couple of series (Kuroshitsuji/Black Butler being one). I've always seen fansub streaming sites host their series under titles such as "Fullmetal Alchemist," "Ouran High School Host Club," and "Paranoia Agent." Though I'll admit that personal experience holds little bearing on this argument. And with ALL of that aside, I'll refer back to the first post: The "most popular" title is not always a clear distinction, and it doesn't help the database or its staff to have the line drawn in such an ambiguous place. |
XTApocalypse said: The fansub watching community, i.e. MAL members. So it should instead cater to the dub watching community?Right. It works in favor of the fansub-watching community. And ONLY that fansub watching community. The Flower We Saw That Day - AnoHana; Waiting in the Summer - Ano Natsu de Matteru; We Were There - Bokura ga Ita; Ghostory, Impostory - Bakemonogatari and Nisemonogatari respectively; Rumbling Hearts - Kimi ga Nozomu Eien; When They Cry - Higurashi no Naku Koro ni; Charcoal Feather Federation - Haibane Renmei...It works both ways. There are also many English titles that people might not recognise. Why should the minority be exempt from learning at the expense of the majority? Context also does little to inform me about these titles either. XTApocalypse said: And by that logic you also know Sen to Chihiro no Kamikakushi since you've now learnt it, but will take you an extra fraction of a second to recognise...That doesn't mean I want it displayed in my list that way. Alphabetical ordering of the list is also meaningless when the titles are different to what you're looking for. Maybe it's just me, but when I'm looking for a title starting with 'S', I don't go looking in the 'K' section.When discussing a title that's only just been released, much less licensed, then of course people aren't going to know what it is. The first time you ever heard "Sakamichi no Apollon," you had no idea what it was, either; you'd have to be provided information on the series before you can make that connection with the title. And the point remains: As we are, right here and right now, you DO know what it is. If you saw it in a list, you would recognize it. It's just slightly more convenient for you to have the Japanese title because you can recognize it a fraction of a second faster. XTApocalypse said: Wrong and 100% of your statistics are completely made up.The "most popular" you speak of is not nearly so black and white. The current system is avoiding a slight inconvenience for the 60% at the cost of completely leaving out the 40%... XTApocalypse said: Context where? In your anime list? Someone else's list? At the top of the anime page? The title of an episode discussion thread? The issue at hand is unrecognisable or difficult to locate anime in our lists due to obscure display title choices which can occur with both English and Romaji titles. Thus the obvious solution should be most popular title, i.e. the way it was which suited everyone just fine or give us the option to choose which anime title to display in our list (though this must be on a case by case basis or it's pointless!).Which brings us back to my biggest and most prominent point: Context, context, context, context, context. I cannot say that enough. It is the single most important thing that an all-romaji database lacks, and what makes it so important is the fact that it does not exclude anybody. Romaji titles serve only those who recognize them and are nothing but Japanese syllabic gibberish to anyone else. "Sen to Chihiro no Kamikakushi" means absolutely nothing to someone who doesn't already know the title and doesn't speak Japanese. "Spirited Away" gives them a clue as to what the movie may be about. XTApocalypse said: Ok, so you see a TV ad for a licensed anime. You want to find out more about it so you come to MAL and then what? You search for the licensed title and are taken to the corresponding page regardless of main title used...Maybe it was a fairly generic title, so you get a few search results, in which case the thumbnails and synopsis give you the context you so desperately desire.Not to mention that when you see banner ads, promotional videos, trailers, product inserts, and ANYTHING else related to a licensed anime series, you're going to see the licensed title. XTApocalypse said: ^This along with some more nonsense statistics and examples of the most popular title beating both licensed and original titles for the sake of majority user convenience.What's more, even assuming there's a 60% to 75% majority of people who generally lean towards fansubs, that doesn't mean that that entire group of people is more familiar with the Japanese title--the two are by no means mutually inclusive. And in my personal experience, I've never encountered fansub viewers who use anything but the licensed title in all the fansub sites and groups I've been to, barring a couple of series (Kuroshitsuji/Black Butler being one). I've always seen fansub streaming sites host their series under titles such as "Fullmetal Alchemist," "Ouran High School Host Club," and "Paranoia Agent." Though I'll admit that personal experience holds little no bearing on this argument. XTApocalypse said: Actually the most popular title is clear in the overwhelming majority of cases, and a number of solutions have already been proposed in those rare ambiguous situations had you read some of the previous posts.And with ALL of that aside, I'll refer back to the first post: The "most popular" title is not always a clear distinction, and it doesn't help the database or its staff to have the line drawn in such an ambiguous place. |
| hmm after thinking about this suggestion more i stick by my original opinion but then also propose this..in the list's search engine let it pick up the synonym titles and or just the english/romaji titles regardless of the language the list is in so you and others would still be able to find titles based on whatever you remember a title by even if in the list itself it only shows in the one language its set up as.that way even if you don't remember a title a certain way you would then able to locate it on your list anyway |
 |
| Oh yeah, one question about the proposed toggle: Would your choice affect how others see your list? Because that would be horrible. And if it doesn't affect how you see others' lists, that would be pretty bad too. Seeing the same anime under different titles across different lists is the worst option. You could even call it inconsistent. IntroverTurtle said: Well I'm glad they have their reasons, but if they could tell me who really benefits from this, that would be swell. I'm seeing a couple of people complaining about Hagane no Renkinjutsushi, Samurai Harem, Cat's Planet Cuties, Ookami to smth and whatever other bizarre title we might end up with once everything is nice and tidy, but the only case where the most popular title was contested was this one guy being wrong about Kuroshitsuji. Other than that, we're just getting vague replies about foreigners while the two foreigners that actually chipped in like "Spirited Away" just fine.Well of course you're not convinced, because you don't know the exact details. But I don't think the Mods would want to do such a large scale thing for no reason, they obviously have thought that this is the best and most efficient way to organize the database. |
fullmetal_adam said: XTApocalypse said: The fansub watching community, i.e. MAL members. So it should instead cater to the dub watching community?Right. It works in favor of the fansub-watching community. And ONLY that fansub watching community. It should cater to everyone. Equally. That's the problem with this "majority" mindset that most of the world has implemented right now. As long as the majority is served, no one really cares about the minority or what accomodations are made for them. fullmetal_adam said: XTApocalypse said: Ok, so you see a TV ad for a licensed anime. You want to find out more about it so you come to MAL and then what? You search for the licensed title and are taken to the corresponding page regardless of main title used...Maybe it was a fairly generic title, so you get a few search results, in which case the thumbnails and synopsis give you the context you so desperately desire.Not to mention that when you see banner ads, promotional videos, trailers, product inserts, and ANYTHING else related to a licensed anime series, you're going to see the licensed title. So you're continually familiarized with the licensed title through promotion, and then you come to this site and they expect you to completely toss that out for a string of Japanese characters you have no familiarity with? You can find the series' page through a search, sure--but that doesn't help anyone use their list, and it certainly doesn't help people new to the site. This is a database site. People have dozens, or hundreds of entries on their anime and manga lists. You tell me with a straight face that you expect people to go down their list, one by one, clicking each entry and opening a new window to find out what in the world it is. fullmetal_adam said: XTApocalypse said: And by that logic you also know Sen to Chihiro no Kamikakushi since you've now learnt it, but will take you an extra fraction of a second to recognise...That doesn't mean I want it displayed in my list that way. Alphabetical ordering of the list is also meaningless when the titles are different to what you're looking for. Maybe it's just me, but when I'm looking for a title starting with 'S', I don't go looking in the 'K' section.When discussing a title that's only just been released, much less licensed, then of course people aren't going to know what it is. The first time you ever heard "Sakamichi no Apollon," you had no idea what it was, either; you'd have to be provided information on the series before you can make that connection with the title. And the point remains: As we are, right here and right now, you DO know what it is. If you saw it in a list, you would recognize it. It's just slightly more convenient for you to have the Japanese title because you can recognize it a fraction of a second faster. ...except that we're speaking English. If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times: Even if context isn't universally useful across absolutely all database titles (which nothing is--and if you're expecting it to be, your expectations are set way too high), the fact of the matter is that context still factors into English titles. English speakers are able to take advantage of context in the English language. Japanese titles are either recognized, or not--there is no middle ground. It's not a terribly complicated concept. English is more useful to English speakers than Japanese is. fullmetal_adam said: personal experience holds little no bearing on this argument. fullmetal_adam said: Actually the most popular title is clear in the overwhelming majority of cases These two statements are direct contradictions. Especially considering that I think it pretty obvious that "The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya" is a much more well-known and widely-used title than "Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu," "Ouran High School Host Club" much moreso than "Ouran Koukou Host Club," and "Grave of the Fireflies" well beyond "Hotaru no Haka." As I've stated before, I would be all in favor of the user option to display the titles in a list as either licensed or romaji, but as far as I'm aware, staff/moderation have made no statement on the feasibility or status of this undertaking. |
XTApocalypseDec 31, 2012 11:18 AM
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