Hyouka Episode 11 Discussion

paladin2050 said:
i think the mystery part of the movie is why he would forgive her

Cirris said:

Actually it is possible for the movie scene to work with the rope. The killer just had to switch keys after they killed Kaitou and lock Kaitou in the room. Since the master key was used to open the door, unless someone double checked the key left at Kaitou's arm, no one would know the difference. The killer already opened the door to the room they used to climb down. So they wouldn't need their original key again.

On top of that, To solve the riddle the "smoking gun clue" would be to find the person who has Kaitou's key. Which would make for an interesting reveal.

KaitoDash said:

The window was not closed but the path from that window to Kaitou's room was unusable.

Hongou's trick mentioned that Kaitou locked the door himself. So it was possible to climb down to him using that path and let him lock himself. But in the movie, Kaitou was killed in that room, thus the locked room that he couldn't possibly lock it himself. The door was locked means the path to that door was unusable, thus no meaning in climbing the rope down there and no meaning of the rope.

s2012k1993 said:

If you have read the complete paragraph, you would have realized that by true goal, I meant Hongou's wish: Everyone has a good time completing the movie project.

s2012k1993 said:

It is this that makes Irisu's endeavor so pitiful. If she had asked Eba, she would have realized that her goal, movie success, should have come second to the true goal, happiness of students. It's because she doesn't ask Eba, she takes this huge detour that leaves her with regret.

Helpme said:


That still doesn't make any sense. It's a one "true goal" for you, not for the author, or the character Fuyumi.

s2012k1993 said:
Melodrama over a simple school movie project? What's the point if one could have asked Hongou? I think this episode lays bare the central conflict over this arc: the importance of intentions. Let me explain.

Irisu convinces Houtarou to solve this mystery because he is the best detective in the school. Houtarou is tricked into believing Irisu chose him because he can best solve this dilemma class 2F is in. Irisu never lies; after all, Houtarou is probably the best person to solve this mystery. Houtarou solves this mystery using the facts given to him (i.e. the movie). Now, when Houtarou gets angry, it's because he realizes that these were never Irisu's intentions. Irisu led him to believe that her intentions were for him to solve the script, when in fact, she wanted someone to write a better script. Why? Because she wanted the movie to be a success, she put the success of the movie over the intentions of the scriptwriter, Hongou.

Now, as an analogy, imagine a politician preaching to a community about the virtues of donating their services. Upon hearing the speech, one would come under the impression that the politician is a kindly and generous fellow. What if the politician just spoke as such because he wanted your support in the upcoming elections. We are led to believe that the politician cares about each one of us, when in fact, the politician only sees each person as a possible vote. Now, who would not be raging when they find out the true intentions of the politician.

What the remaining members of the Classics Club push Houtarou to realize is the importance of Hongou's intentions over the correct solution to the script. This is what brings Houtarou to realize Irisu's real intentions. No wonder Houtarou feels unspeakable rage over not only how she misled him in his belief of her true intentions but also how she played with his emotions during the process.

Irisu, on the other hand, doesn't really care that she bullshit Houtarou. With a task ahead of her, she did everything she can to produce the best results. The chat between Irisu and Houtarou's sister is enlightening for this very reason. Irisu finally seems to have realized how contradictory her actions her. The point of the school movie project was really for everyone to have a good time. By believing that the point was for the movie to be a success, she failed to achieve the true goal. Everything comes to bit her back. Hence, the final phrase of each episode of this arc makes sense. Why didn't she ask Eba? Irisu didn't wish to reveal her true, but incorrect, intentions. In hindsight, it makes sense she should have revealed them to Eba, the one closest to Hongou (if not Hongou). Therefore, Irisu would have realized that the success of the movie comes second to the happiness of her classmates and would have never had to pursue her intentions using bullshit.

This arc and the first both seem to repeatedly hit Hyouka's central theme: discovering intentions. In the first arc, we find out Chitanda's uncle's true intentions; in this arc, Hongou's true intentions. In both arcs, the victims are portrayed as unlucky heroes because of the manipulation of intentions.

For those interested, I am using Harry Frankfurt definition of bullshit in his book, "On Bullshit."

Cirris said:
well you guys are special :P

Helpme said:

So your thinking is that because one explanation for the locked door becomes impossible, all the others must too? I can't really agree with that.

razor39999 said:


Did you even read what I wrote? The whole "twist" about why Irisu excluded Hongou from writing it is what's retarded. If she only asked the girl nicely to include one death, she probably would've been able to, considering how many Holmes novels she read regardless if she liked death or not. The fact that Irisu bothered to make Hongou seem sick, manipulate Oreki to finish the script and all that for a FREAKING SCHOOL MOVIE, is just plain too much fuss over nothing. That Oreki, Chitanda and co. didn't bother considering to ask the author up until this episode is just a minor cherry on top that shows how dumb they are.

razor39999 said:


Did you even read what I wrote? The whole "twist" about why Irisu excluded Hongou from writing it is what's retarded. If she only asked the girl nicely to include one death, she probably would've been able to, considering how many Holmes novels she read regardless if she liked death or not. The fact that Irisu bothered to make Hongou seem sick, manipulate Oreki to finish the script and all that for a FREAKING SCHOOL MOVIE, is just plain too much fuss over nothing. That Oreki, Chitanda and co. didn't bother considering to ask the author up until this episode is just a minor cherry on top that shows how dumb they are.

KaitoDash said:

That's why he had to change his perspective, right? I honestly think it was unfair towards him. He was given false clues for Film mystery to solve Hongou's novel mystery, which are two different mysteries. So to say, given clues for one mystery to solve another. That's just absurd.

I disagree that he ignored Hongou's mystery, rather he mixed the two mysteries up. And expecting him to separate them is going too far when he was told that the film was filmed according to Hongou's writings. Anyone would believe that the two would be consistent and have the same contents.

Vanisher said:
it was so obvious that hongou wasn't sick, but i wasn't expecting that explanation.

amazing episode.

vampko said:

Again, you're missing the point. Why was it that some of us were able to clue in on the correct mystery? It's because we didn't focus on what everyone else was. We tried to find out what was inconsistent. We weren't satisfied with the information we were handed so quickly. The truth is usually buried under other 'truths'. And the true goal, is usually hidden within the 'obvious goal'.

Now, I probably should just say this is myself. Since I can't manage to begin to say how someone else thinks. So, as for myself, this is the way I thought to get to this conclusion.

Saying that it's not Oreki's fault because he was handed the wrong evidence, just means that he was being lazy in a sense.

Oreki I'm sure realized this, and that's why he was so frustrated. He let himself be used. Could he end up a great detective in the future? It's possible, but he has to learn more about thinking outside the box. Still, he's got a good deal of potential.

@others
And, about everyone being 'mean' to Oreki. Remember how Houtaro kept on trying to say that Fukube had some kind of talent? Well, Fukube either has little confidence in himself, or he's well aware of his limits. I'm thinking it's the latter. What Houtaro did to Fukube is akin to a really strong kid ragging on a weak kid for not being able to stand up to the bullies. The weak kid wants soooo bad to stand up to them, but he knows that it would end up in him getting beat up, since he's tried it before. So, the more the strong kid says these things, the more it frustrates the weak kid, and it's like throwing daggers into him each time.

Chitanda wasn't mad at Oreki persay, she just didn't like the result. And since she sort of considered herself a friend of Hongou, she was also upset that Hongou's wish couldn't be fulfilled. And, to be honest, Oreki kinda shoved Chitanda to the side a bit, as did everyone else, even though she was the one with the right mindset.

Mayaka didn't really seem to blow up at Houtaro at all, just let him know that things didn't make sense.

All three of them said it was a great end though.

EDIT
Ah, forgot this too. He read the script. So, he could have easily realized that something was off.

EOTW said:
Well This has probably been the best arc so far in the series, but man I just wanted to tell Oreki to just calm down. He was taking this a little to seriously. I mean he seemed suicidal.

s2012k1993 said:

Actually, the scriptwriter, Hongou, does chat about this with Irisu online. I wasn't making this up; it's actually mentioned in the online chat scene between Irisu and Hongou.

KaitoDash said:

I'm not sure you understand my point. Logically, since the door is locked, it is impossible for the culprit to walk through that door. Thus Kounosu won't use the windows because it doesn't help her pass through the door. Hongou's trick was explained that Kounosu was able to use that windows because the door wasn't locked. Houtarou clearly explained this.

Helpme said:


Yes, the scriptwriter expresses that view. The issue is that you think it is a special true goal, and that you thinking it special would affect how the characters are written. It's that last part that doesn't make sense to me.

vampko said:

Again, you're missing the point. Why was it that some of us were able to clue in on the correct mystery? It's because we didn't focus on what everyone else was. We tried to find out what was inconsistent. We weren't satisfied with the information we were handed so quickly. The truth is usually buried under other 'truths'. And the true goal, is usually hidden within the 'obvious goal'.

Now, I probably should just say this is myself. Since I can't manage to begin to say how someone else thinks. So, as for myself, this is the way I thought to get to this conclusion.

Helpme said:

Yes, the murder being done in the way shown in the video prevents the victim from locking the door himself. The problem with you logic is that this doesn't preclude all other ways of dealing with a locked door.

2easy4AgEnT said:
Jesus Christ I still couldn’t understand, so why is it from the start the movie could ran off from Hongou’s script even before she was being told to feign illness??

Kakkoi-Kun said:
It's obviously his sister. In the chat, she calls him an idiot.

Edit: And she says she's half-way around the world.

Cratex said:
One of the characters stated the reason - she wasn't 'on-site' supervising the filming and the cast and crew just started modifying things on the fly.

ftghb said:

I get that the hongou sickness part was to bamboozle oreki, but how did irisu lie to hongou?

This was perhaps the only thing i was confused about. How did irisu manage to convince hongou to stop working on the script? At the end where green text (supposedly hongou) is chatting with irisu, irisu actually says "it probably won't live up to the movie you had in mind" and then orange text (presumably oreki's sister) confirms it by saying "you just rejected it in a way so that you wouldn't hurt her"
but I still dont know what irisu said exactly to trick hongou into thinking she was actually HELPING her, not selfishly rewriting the script for her....

KaitoDash said:

Sorry, it's not my logic but Houtarou's. I just comprehended what he explained.
If you say that Houtarou's final deduction is wrong, then I have nothing else to say.

s2012k1993 said:

If we do assume that high school students generally prioritize their happiness and that I am using "true" in a relative manner as opposed to an absolute manner, then what I said about Irisu's intentions makes perfect sense.

-Yumaol- said:
"Why didn’t she ask EBA?"?

Again and again. What is this?

Magito said:
Mad Oreki is Mad!

Needs more Irisu senpai

Shadowninja100 said:
I like the episode but I have to agree that it was way too dramatic. It was just an amateur movie, I was really bothered by how the other characters reacted when they realized Houtarou was wrong. Especially Satoshi, his outburst seemed completely out of character for something that really wasn't that important.

Klodrik said:
Now his emerging hope of finally finding a direction in life is threatened.