| The Japanese were once a brutal nation during the 20 century they occupied Korea under colonial rule they just strip of there good and stuff hash ruling there are story about atrocities this includes rape,unfree labor,famine which is letting the people starved to death. oh, yes the Imperial Japanese Army did something called The Rape of Nanking actually know as the Nanking Massacre in 1937. I believe to my knowledge this was during the second Sino-Japanese War war they just went in the city of Nanking Massacre go around killing Innocent people going and raping old and young women killing children they even a contest to kill 100 people using a sword which is executing by beheading by using Katana. These bastard killed 300,000 for crying out loud that's is so inhumane what's the Japanese did probably most of them got away of atrocities committed. Also around world war 2 I think something called Unit 731 they making biological weapons and chemical warfare this was in the Japanese puppet state Manchukuo they used people Chinese and Korean and prisoner of war the America as experiments who were fighting in the war most of them died in that's terrible places the Japanese are pure evil what they in the 20 century and when the Japanese bomb pearl harbor staring a conflict with the United Sated yeah they got there ass crush. I don think the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not enough they deserve more then that's. The America should have bomb more than 20 or 40 city compare to the horrible war crimes they did. The Japanese should have all of their city bomb yes this is coming form a person who like Anime form japan and Japanese culture and love the country itself. There nothing but a bunch of murderer. |
rennachansMay 19, 2010 11:01 PM
| Brain-washed hard right wing soldiers of Japan from 60 years ago =/= Population of Japan today. But yeah, Japan does seem to scoot around the darker parts of their modern history in their media. |
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| All is fair in love an war |
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| Japanese occupied China, Vietnam and Korea in 20th Century. Of course they did plenty of war crimes since they were with Nazis. Untill now, many Chinese still hates Japanese because of their cruel behaviour, acts towards China. Japan was for many decades inferior to China, yet China has never attacked them; maybe they did, but none o them are worth mentioning. And once when China had missed industrial revolution, Japanese took the advantage of that and occupied them. How arrogant of them. |
| The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The nameless is the beginning of heaven and Earth. The named is the mother of the ten thousand things. I do not recall, Jesus ever saying "build churches, temples, and kill those who doesn't follow christianity..." nor he said "christianity is religion". News for VN immigrants in EU: vietinfo.eu |
| Seriously bombing two city's filled with citizens that didn't have anything to do with the war(well most of them) is punishment enough. Children burnt alive or died due to radiation. Altough Japan did terrible thing why do innocent people have to suffer? Now people will start shouting bullsh*t like but why didn't the citizens of Japan do something against the war?!??! well First off The japanese Culture is kinda focused on honour.(especcialy back then) And going against the goverment isn't really boosting your honour. 2 problem they will kill restance. 3 It's way easier to just go with the stream then go against it. If almost everyone you know doesn't do anything The chances of you doing anything aren't really high. |
| I forgot to add the world genocide. |
| I was expecting something more Pro-China and Japan-hating than calling them "arrogant" and often times "inferior" than that. Surely there's a better word for "less industrialized" than "inferior", sir. And there was a lot more before the Nazis. Japan was also involved in the imperialism of China along with the Western powers. Where Japan, Manchuria, and the West were all essentially imperializing China. I wouldn't be surprised your Canton/Guangzhou is a direct reference to this, wanting to show Chinese solidarity and seeing Mandarin culture and a barbaric foreign element. I dislike how you always have a blatantly pro-Chinese bias so much that you can't even mention a liked Japanese region in a topic about Japanese regions and instead substitute a Chinese region. In a topic like this it's understandable to say something negative against Japan, but surely calling them "inferior" is a bit much. designed said: Seriously bombing two city's filled with citizens that didn't have anything to do with the war(well most of them) is punishment enough. Children burnt alive or died due to radiation. Altough Japan did terrible thing why do innocent people have to suffer? The Units who did this were pretty singular and separated from even the general war effort. And indeed the bombing of Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki were indeed all cruel, and unnecessary. They were perfectly avoidable and claiming that they were in any way necessary for anything but revenge is a lie. |
 Old avatar and sig retired for now. |
| but well you can't blame the Japanese living now that did nothing to participate in the war right? If we have to blame then we have to blame the person who came up with the idea of conquering China-who shouldn't be alive now ^^; |
| Yes, they do tired. |
| but its true that they try to hide what they did in the war-they should just come right out and apologise for what their ancestors had done maybe? |
| I seriously can't understand the topic title. Actually, pretty much the whole first post too. |
| The Japanese certainly have their faults, but unlike America, at least they don't slap the criminal's hands and just let them off for their crime. |
Ghostfacehell said: You're saying that they are nothing but a bunch of murderers for what they've done? You're saying we should pay them back? You're saying that we should do what they did to become "nothing but a bunch of murderers"?The america should have bomb more than 20 or 40 city compare to the horrible war crimes they did. The japanese should have all of their city bomb yes this is coming form a person who anime form japan and stuff. There nothing but a bunch of murderer. |
| I don't doubt that Japan's largely conservative government doesn't exactly put the extent of Japan's imperialist government did during and before world war 2. But I wouldn't call omission of some details brainwashing. Most of the Japanese people I've talked to know about most of the major atrocities that a world history class would cover in the US. The fact that they enshrined some war criminals in the watchamacallit shrine that the PM visits every year or something shows a marked difference in how they view their history relative to how the Germans do. On the other hand, it's very common for huge attrocities that countries are embarassed of to be omitted from text books. I remember my high school history class spent a long time on the Vietnam War, but I don't remember reading anything about how the US essentially carpet bombed Cambodia and Laos to destroy supply routs with no regard for civilian life. |
zharnotczar said: Ghostfacehell said: You're saying that they are nothing but a bunch of murderers for what they've done? You're saying we should pay them back? You're saying that we should do what they did to become "nothing but a bunch of murderers"?The america should have bomb more than 20 or 40 city compare to the horrible war crimes they did. The japanese should have all of their city bomb yes this is coming form a person who anime form japan and stuff. There nothing but a bunch of murderer. True :) Nice one |
| I have no idea what you people are arguing about. What I will say is this. The victims always hate the victimizers, and the victimizers eventually die and even their offspring curse their actions. My grandparents are Chinese, and to this day, they curse the Japanese. But, whenever someone mentions the TianAnMen massacre, where the Chinese military opened fire on college students, my grandparents defend MaoZeDong's actions, because communism is viewed as the leader''s action is the whole country's will. And then they drop the subject. In America, the colonists, and President Andrew Jackson forced thousands of Native Americans out of their native lands onto the trail of tears. We tend to try and avoid the subject on Native American abuse and torture during the exploration ages, or try to distance ourselves with the ancestor's actions. And I'm pretty sure the Native American elders still curse the horrible colonists and indirectly, modern Americans...to this day. |
naiyinMay 16, 2010 9:04 AM
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| well its kind of expected that people will try to make an excuse for what they do even if they know that its wrong |
Mistyunion said: I have no idea what you people are arguing about. What I will say is this. The victims always hate the victimizers, and the victimizers eventually die and even their offspring curse their actions. My grandparents are Chinese, and to this day, they curse the Japanese. But, whenever someone mentions the TianAnMen massacre, where the Chinese military opened fire on college students, my grandparents defend MaoZeDong's actions, because communism is viewed as the leader''s action is the whole country's will. And then they drop the subject. In America, the colonists, and President Andrew Jackson forced thousands of Native Americans out of their native lands onto the trail of tears. We tend to try and avoid the subject on Native American abuse and torture during the exploration ages, or try to distance ourselves with the ancestor's actions. And I'm pretty sure the Native American elders still curse the horrible colonists and indirectly, modern Americans...to this day. yar well people hate admitting their mistakes especially big ones like these |
| Every imperialist nation that ever existed tries to hide the war crimes it did. You have no idea how much the people (not army) of Japan suffered under totalitarian rule. You were unable to speak out against the military or else you got silenced. Nobody ITT can understand the horrors of having a war in your home country. You can only spout stuff your parents/grandparents tell you and continue the hatred because of their butthurt. In during troll thread. |
SquareZ said: All is fair in love and war |
zharnotczar said: Ghostfacehell said: You're saying that they are nothing but a bunch of murderers for what they've done? You're saying we should pay them back? You're saying that we should do what they did to become "nothing but a bunch of murderers"?The america should have bomb more than 20 or 40 city compare to the horrible war crimes they did. The japanese should have all of their city bomb yes this is coming form a person who anime form japan and stuff. There nothing but a bunch of murderer. Nah I don't know it's will cuz more war I hope history don't repeat it's the again. It's hard to forget and not easy to forgive. |
| Every nation is trying to hide their crimes, or at least not showing off of what crimes they did in past. It is obvious that there are no country, which would be proud of crimes they have done... But in nations with democracy regime, the state cannot own photographs, videos and so on if they belong to someone else (that's obvious). Like crimes U.S. did in Vietnam during 60's.  As long as the photographs portraying some crime belongs to private company, or some individual person, they cannot do anything with it. Of course, if the government interfere with the person, who's selling such photographs with content of crimes the government did in past, that's not a decent democracy anymore. And it is up to what exactly is the content of it. If the content of such thing could lead to rebellion, then the government can intervene. |
| The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The nameless is the beginning of heaven and Earth. The named is the mother of the ten thousand things. I do not recall, Jesus ever saying "build churches, temples, and kill those who doesn't follow christianity..." nor he said "christianity is religion". News for VN immigrants in EU: vietinfo.eu |
Haylias said: But yeah, Japan does seem to scoot around the darker parts of their modern history in their media. So does any other country with the exception of Germany (and Germany hides anything but WW2 crimes just as much as any other country). What's more surprising is that Japan can do this despite surrendering unconditionally. ukonkivi said: And indeed the bombing of Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki were indeed all cruel, and unnecessary. They were perfectly avoidable and claiming that they were in any way necessary for anything but revenge is a lie. I thought it was pretty much agreed that the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the cheapest way out for the US. The carpet bombing of cities during WW2 was mostly for revenge, though. And a very inefficient method of destroying industries. |
 And on the edge of sanity I stumble and fall. |
| Facepalming... |
Prinny666 said: Facepalming... Hmm trolling? |
Ceska said: ukonkivi said: And indeed the bombing of Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki were indeed all cruel, and unnecessary. They were perfectly avoidable and claiming that they were in any way necessary for anything but revenge is a lie. I thought it was pretty much agreed that the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the cheapest way out for the US. The carpet bombing of cities during WW2 was mostly for revenge, though. And a very inefficient method of destroying industries. The bombing in Hiroshima and Nagasaki was to prove, that no one is stronger than U.S. |
| The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The nameless is the beginning of heaven and Earth. The named is the mother of the ten thousand things. I do not recall, Jesus ever saying "build churches, temples, and kill those who doesn't follow christianity..." nor he said "christianity is religion". News for VN immigrants in EU: vietinfo.eu |
| Why else are the Chinese so pissed off at the Japanese? |
| Click on this. I dare you. | MAL Fantasy Football League | Currently Watching List RWBY Club. RWBY is anime. Deal with it. |
| Not at all actually, but I think what you said is ridiculous. Especially this: Ghostfacehell said: I don think the bombing of hiroshima and nagasaki were not enough they deserve more then that's. The america should have bomb more than 20 or 40 city compare to the horrible war crimes they did. The japanese should have all of their city bomb yes this is coming form a person who anime form japan and stuff. There nothing but a bunch of murderer. |
| Japanese should compensate to Chinese. I just watched the video and my heart aches after seeing how much Chinese suffered because of those imperialist pigs. And what about Chinese communistic government? Are they not going to help those citizens? Communistic pig, calling themselves left-wind party, socialistic, but when it comes to these kind of thing, they just have to blame, and put responsibility on Japanese. Ghostfacehell said: I don think the bombing of hiroshima and nagasaki were not enough they deserve more then that's. The america should have bomb more than 20 or 40 city compare to the horrible war crimes they did. The japanese should have all of their city bomb yes this is coming form a person who anime form japan and stuff. There nothing but a bunch of murderer. Military should just focus on enemies forces, civilians has nothing to do with it. Killing citizens in order to win the war, is good strategy, but not an honorable victory. I think if U.S. sent the bomb to Japanese military base, it should already prove enough, that U.S. is much superior to Japanese. |
spupapiMay 16, 2010 11:00 AM
| The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The nameless is the beginning of heaven and Earth. The named is the mother of the ten thousand things. I do not recall, Jesus ever saying "build churches, temples, and kill those who doesn't follow christianity..." nor he said "christianity is religion". News for VN immigrants in EU: vietinfo.eu |
| The answer is no. The Japanese do not try to hide their war crimes. In fact, there is frequent and open debate about their nature, morality, and legality, with several political positions both condemning and exonerating both sides of certain crimes. Japan has officially provided numerous apologies and paid reparations, with little delay. Unapologetic extremists have been rightly booted from office after their opionions were stated publicly. The debate over textbooks isn't unique to this or to Japan: France still has trouble admitting that it had more than a little bit of help in WWII. Ironically, the reason for things like the enshrining of less-than-desirables at Yasukuni Shrine was the result of US decisions. In order to ensure its tribunals, such as the Tokyo trials, were final, and deny the accused full due process (the right to appeal), the tribunals were not given the legal power to define the defendants as criminals. This was necessary to avoid scapegoats like Matsui Iwane (convicted for "not trying hard enough" to prevent the Nanking Massacre, despite being its main detractor among Japanese officers!) getting a deserved appeal and exoneration. Of course, the Shrine is also not owned or run by the government, and is a religious, not political, memorial. And so it goes on and on. All the main issues are raised on highly debatable grounds, and only hold significant credence when the apologies and reparations are discounted, and actions of other nations are ignored. And the total value of Japanese war reparations was immense. Problems continue due to refusals to accept apologies, not for lack of them. This puts Japan far better than a number of other nations. For example: In Turkey, it is considered a crime (under a constitutional article forbidding "insulting Turkishness") to declare the massive death toll of Armenians on a forced expulsionary trek as the "Armenian Genocide." Korean troops in WWII had a greater propensity towards violence and brutality against prisoners and noncompliant civilians than their Japanese masters. Japan was still footed the bill for their excesses. Even in western sources, you have to dig for that one. The massacres of South Vietnamese civilians by the VC and North Vietnamese are estimated at about 1.3 times the combined casualties from the South Vietnamese and US military. Those are also quite handily suppressed, even in western media. How often do you hear about that? In the Russian Federation, documents regarding the Soviet government's massacres, executions, and gulags, in both war and peacetime, are still state secrets. Much of our information comes from documents smuggled by defecters - the best sources coming after the fall of the Soviet Union. Based on these records, an estimated 35 million went "poof." Again, even western media and academia seem afraid to touch this. The United States and UK still do assert that certain acts performed in WWII, such as the bombings of Dresden, Tokyo, and Kobe were specifically run against militarily valid targets, despite clear evidence to the contrary. Especially telling is that, in 1949, they both knocked down an attempt to specifically classify area bombing of civilian targets as a war crime, as that would be a de facto admission of guilt. The above listed attacks, along with the atomic bombings, however, wouldn't even need that law, as they are easily invalidated under previous treaties. The internment of Japanese-Americans in both Canada and the US in WWII can be technically considered an act of genocide. This involved a number of illegal sub-acts, such as the Census Bureau providing information on US citizens (categorically denied until proven 3 years ago). It wasn't until 1988 (ironically under a Republican administration) that an official admission and apology was given - Canada followed suit a month later. It's still largely ignored except in certain circles. In the courts martial for the My Lai Massacre, the US completely reversed its rulings regarding following orders. In the Nuremburg and Tokyo trials, defendants were not able to use a "following orders" defense. Yet, 25 years later, the US Military let off all but one, and gave a reduced sentence to the last, based solely on that defense. If it were required to be consistent with this new ruling, the vast majority of WWII war criminals would have to be exonerated! Armenia occupies large swaths of undisputed territory in Azerbaijan after its intervention in the Nagorno-Krabakh conflict. It has ejected the local population and is actively trying to encourage settlements. Multiple war crimes, this one even sparking UN activity (which is ironically rare). Actions by Russian and Armenian troops, involving a highly publicized Kjojaly Massacre of fleeing civilians, are to exonerate the troops involved by declaring that a few dozen scattered (and retreating) militia was an excuse to shoot the whole column. Key officials did admit though not in as many words, that it was likely a load of BS. Most people don't even know about the fact that India committed a long string of atrocities against minority separatist populations in the '70s and '80s, and even to present day. And to this day, there is a surprisingly heavy air of oppression as the government makes little effort to enforce its own laws. Kashmir is a great example, but you can also find this as a huge issue in the mountainous north and east. Let's not even touch upon the autocratic nations, especially African and Islamic, as there's too many to list. Really, the main reason there's so much media hype about Japan "trying to ignore/bury" its past is political. Japan is by far the most successful Asian nation, and while lacking the ability to exercise military might, its economic influence is immense. Resentment of Japan's success, desire for it to "share" its riches, and basic geopolitical jostling involving the region and everyone invested dictate that there is little chance that Japan will ever be fully forgiven, no matter what it does. |
| >The america should have bomb more than 20 or 40 city compare to the horrible war crimes they did. They DID. The US did not bomb only 2 cities in Japan in WWII, they bombed many cities, killing half a million of citizens, and burning million of homes with fire bombs. And they intentionally chose the big ones. One of the reasons was Japan was not really ready to surrender. They even trained their Kamikaze to defend (teenager / young adults who do the suicide bombings). The tactics killed hundreds of US soldiers. The US was in a state of panic and anger. They did not want the war to go long or sacrifice more soldiers in the contrary. So they decided to use a more massive bombing. (experimental) Only by the history review told us that it was supposed to be unnecessary, but no body in the past can predict the future result correctly unfortunately. |
designed said: Seriously bombing two city's filled with citizens that didn't have anything to do with the war(well most of them) is punishment enough. Children burnt alive or died due to radiation. Altough Japan did terrible thing why do innocent people have to suffer? Now people will start shouting bullsh*t like but why didn't the citizens of Japan do something against the war?!??! well First off The japanese Culture is kinda focused on honour.(especcialy back then) And going against the goverment isn't really boosting your honour. 2 problem they will kill restance. 3 It's way easier to just go with the stream then go against it. If almost everyone you know doesn't do anything The chances of you doing anything aren't really high. The Nukes where "acceptable losses" Nagasaki and Hiroshima where also massive military targets, they housed most of Japans Industry used for the war effort. On top of that, read up about the Battle of Saipan. The Japanese Soldiers there managed to convince the Japanese Civilians there that the Americans are coming to rape, murder and torture you and your family, so you should not surrender and kill your self. Which they did IN FUCKING DROVES, families huddled around grenades as they went off, Mothers and fathers drowning their children, families cutting each other to pieces, and scores of people hurdling them self off cliffs. So if we attacked mainland Japan not only would we lose horrendous amounts of American Soldiers and Japanese Soldiers, but on top of that losing massive amounts of civilians in cross fire and mass suicides. Some times you just need to cut off a leg to save the body. |
JigeroMay 16, 2010 12:27 PM
| It doesn't think, it doesn't feel, it doesn't laugh or cry..... All it does from dusk till dawn is make the soldiers die. |
spupapi said: Communistic pig, calling themselves left-wind party, socialistic, but when it comes to these kind of thing, they just have to blame, and put responsibility on Japanese. China has been failing at leftism since the Cultural Revolution and before. The vanguard party thing is never a good idea. Too much time is spent fighting something falsely considered Imperialist or bourgeois, not enough attention is given truly helping and mobilizing the poor. We need an Anarchizing of China right now, one that distrusts the heavily bourgeois government and the influx of heavily pro-Capitalistic values. Because the poor are still suffering immensely in China and Capitalism is not helping. Clearly the poor proletariat who have not received help from someone, those guilty went on to become rich, so the very least they can be force to do is compensate those who were harmed due to their atrocities. |
Old avatar and sig retired for now. |
ukonkivi said: designed said: Seriously bombing two city's filled with citizens that didn't have anything to do with the war(well most of them) is punishment enough. Children burnt alive or died due to radiation. Altough Japan did terrible thing why do innocent people have to suffer? The Units who did this were pretty singular and separated from even the general war effort. And indeed the bombing of Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki were indeed all cruel, and unnecessary. They were perfectly avoidable and claiming that they were in any way necessary for anything but revenge is a lie. The bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki bought about Japan's surrender and the end of the war. Yes, they were cruel, but what do you expect - its war. The bombings were not particularly unnecessary or avoidable, as there is no telling how successful Operation Downfall would have been and there is no telling how many more casualties there would have been on both sides. |
ErwinJA said: Or, just maybe, the destruction they caused was more severe combined with how recent it was (compared to some cases) than the examples you've given. Like, maybe I've missing something, but you can't really compare the situation of what the Japanese did to Chinese civilians than say, what Canadians and Americans did to the Japanese at the internment camps, can you? The Armenian genocide is pretty awful, but in terms of the sheer numbers of innocent deaths the Japanese had caused or had initiated compared to what Turkey did? I highly doubt Japan is having the attention it has just because of politics.Really, the main reason there's so much media hype about Japan "trying to ignore/bury" its past is political. Japan is by far the most successful Asian nation, and while lacking the ability to exercise military might, its economic influence is immense. Resentment of Japan's success, desire for it to "share" its riches, and basic geopolitical jostling involving the region and everyone invested dictate that there is little chance that Japan will ever be fully forgiven, no matter what it does. And well, it's not like I'm against that politics had no factors in it, but I just don't see it as the main factor. |
| A bit, all societies do. |
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| I can see why the Japanese woulld try and hide these things but its all useless in the end. I remember an episode of the Chasers where one of their guys went a Japanese war memorial and changed the signs to say what really happened, not what the Japanese put there. |
| The Japanese don't try to hide those crimes. Even in their media, they sometimes put a lampshade on it. It's like trying to hide a scar on your face. But you know, they'd rather not mention it in the same way a guy wouldn't like to talk about that same scar. It's not only wrong, but insane to imply the sins of the fathers on today's people. Things have changed now. Japan is quite a peaceful country. Heck, America even took away their right to wage war after WWII. If you must know, part of the treaty is disarmament and they can't fight another country without getting attacked first. The murderous hands of those forefathers aren't present today anymore. You wouldn't believe how many bad things other countries did. You can't blame Japan for being the only bad guys around; there are more around the world. But today, we must forget those sins if we want peace and not war. Today is different. Ghostfacehell said: I don think the bombing of hiroshima and nagasaki were not enough they deserve more then that's. The america should have bomb more than 20 or 40 city compare to the horrible war crimes they did. The japanese should have all of their city bomb yes this is coming form a person who like anime form japan and stuff. There nothing but a bunch of murderer. Okay, so they're a bunch of murderers. Sure, I'll give you that. You wipe that country off the face of Earth? I would never ever call you a murderer. You'll be a monster instead. A complete and heartless abomination. |
| I don't know though. Personally I learned about how my country raped, tortured, enslaved, killed, stole, and destroyed the property of people of certain ethnicities, suck as blacks, Indians, and the Japanese. |
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| On contrary to popular belief, this is actually discussed in Japan with frequency. In fact, many Japanese admit that Japan was a bit of an aggressor in WW2. But yeah, they tend to lampshade it at school. Not all Japanese soldiers were insane murderers, and it's not like many of them commited atrocities because they were naturally born evil, the Japanese were submmited to intense brainwashing. The civilian population didn't know much of what was happening at the time, much less about the soldiers atrocities, and the defeat of Japan was met with shock by most people, since the government propaganda kept telling them that Japan had the upper hand in the war. I know many people say that the Japanese were irrational and refused to surrender, but I've also heard that they were ready to surrender before the first atomic bomb. I guess that's up to ones interpretation of history. Japan is not the only coutnry that rewrites history. Take a look at history schoolbooks from many European countries, especially the Colonialism chapters. |
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| After watching Code Geass, I thought that the Japanese actually tried to sort of repent for their sins? Well, this topic seems interesting xD |
| “My abusive language is alchemized through 40kg of copper, 25kg of zinc, 15kg of nickel, 15kg of ice that keeps my cool, and 97kg of pure spite” - Senjougahara Hitagi Games Room's badge |
| Of course Japan "hides" many of the atrocious things they did back in the World War. If with "hides" one understands it as, "whenever it can be helped, don't mention it in official circumstances, like schools, speeches or what have you." It's sort of a self-enforcing mechanism. They don't actively go out and bury the evidence of their crimes, or anything like that, of course. But then, I hear that French schools emit a lot of, or even everything, of their imperialistic period from their books, and I think I have heard the same about British schools and the British empire. I do not know the veracity of these claims, but would not be too shocked if true. I am certain American schools emit at least half of all the shitty things they have done, and rephrase the other half to sound as if they weren't. I do know that Swedish schools do not even come close to mentioning the systematised sterilisation of the 30s -70s. So there is nothing extraordinary in Japanese schools omitting Unit 731, the Rape of Nanking, comfort women or what have you. It is, however, certainly stupid, tactless and dickish. Japan might be extraordinary in that first, the things done were in many cases so extremely hideous one'd think they were duly and repeatedly noted, and second, they lost, and therefore had not much say until the occupation was lifted. various people said: [The nukes were justified because they made Grorious Nippon surrender and saved life, etcetcetc Augh, no. First things first: Japan already was suing for peace. The cabinet was all about surrendering; they weren't debating whether they'd surrender or not, but by which terms. The war hawks wanted to keep Korea, Japan and Formosa, they wanted Japan to handle the dissolution of their own armed forced and they wanted Japan to judge and punish eventual war criminals (of course, since many of those guys knew or were war criminals themselves). The other side of the cabinet just wanted national independence secured. But for reasons entirely grounded in self-righteous power-mongering, the Allies wanted unconditional surrender. They wanted it so bad they were ready to burn the whole island down (hallo Potsdam Ultimatum) if they couldn't get it. Who is the war criminal in this instance? Second things second; no, it's not all that likely the nukes were a heavy argument. See, America already firebombed cities to pretty much the same destructive effect as the nukes had. The firebombing of Tôkyô killed more people and destroyed more property than either Little or Big Boy did, it just took six hours instead of a second and two thousand B52s rather than one; but what does that matter to those living in the cities, as they wound up equally destroyed anyway? And the firebombings, just to make sure, did not make the Japanese elite budge to the possibility of unconditional surrender (but again, did make them sue for peace). So why should nukes have such an effect? No one really knows why Japan surrendered, but I think the Soviets declaring war on them was decisive, together with the Emperor seeing the results of firebombing. Third things third: They could have demonstrated without killing anyone/all that many. Send message, "we're going to demonstrate our new weapon on this city here, Hirosima. [or better yet, Random Patch of Land No One Lives On.] It'll be terrible for anyone in the vicinity. Please evacuate it, whoever does not leave stays at their own peril." America already had air superiority; even a forewarned air raid would progress without too much difficulty, and they had routinely warned civilians of air raids in the past. (Though not all or even most; the criteria they went by are me obscure.) Fourth things fourth: The nukes were deployed not to make Japan surrender as much as to scare the Soviet Union. Fifth things fifth: As one of my heroes on this matter, Leo Szilard noted, if it had been the Germans who developed the nuke first, and destroyed two cities, and then was defeated, would not the men responsible for this weapon be put to trial for war crimes - or even crimes against humanity? I am rather sure they would have. |
How is the world ruled and how do wars start? Diplomats tell lies to journalists and then believe what they read. | Report rules abuse | Your Panel | Clubs | Messages | Forum | Recent <img src="http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/4672/stuhlbarg.png" /> |
| See, all of your arguments are pointless. The US had the power to drop the two nuclear bombs on them, thus, they had the right to. In the real world, might = right, and any other argument goes against the realities of the situation. The only reason order exists is because MIGHT is put behind the laws which bind our society |
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| Are they off killing and raping people now? No? I didn't think so... The people now are not the ones who were involved. It's all in the past so lets leave it that way! |
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| Give it a century or so, it's too early to say forgive and forget, since there are still people who lived through WWII, and if they witnessed the horrendous actions done by either side, you can't just tell them to forgive and forget and expect them to listen to you. |
Seigeengine said: And as I said, the dropping of those bombs was a war crime.See, all of your arguments are pointless. The US had the power to drop the two nuclear bombs on them, thus, they had the right to. In the real world, might = right, and any other argument goes against the realities of the situation. The only reason order exists is because MIGHT is put behind the laws which bind our society And crimes are breaking the rules. Which incidentally were exactly the ones the winners, and therefore the most powerful, instituted in the first place for your "order". Furthermore, I don't agree with your pseudo-Darwinism. Partly because it is lacking in reason, and partly because it lacks in even the remotest of compassion. |
How is the world ruled and how do wars start? Diplomats tell lies to journalists and then believe what they read. | Report rules abuse | Your Panel | Clubs | Messages | Forum | Recent <img src="http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/4672/stuhlbarg.png" /> |
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