| After watching a significant amount of fighting shounen anime, I have identified one of their biggest issues: The collapse of the power scales. For example, in Dragon Ball Z, when the ki was introduced, the show was only about punching harder to stay relevant in the plot/history. For that reason characters like Krilin, Yamcha, Ten Shin Han, etc. are relegated and used, many times, as a comic relief. I understand that the idea of this type of anime is to show that people can get better and stronger, the big problem is the execution of this idea. Many shonen use the power of friendship excuse (and derivatives), to give power ups, especially, to the main characters, and, of course, this is not how reality works. If you wanna get better, you need to give something in exchange (like days of training, study 3 or 4 hours daily, etc.), and I only saw that in a few fighting shounen like Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood or Hunter x Hunter. This problem drags many more that are the typical mistakes that many people complain about in this anime genre like secondary characters with a poor development (which I previously mentioned), many female characters seen as trophies instead of characters, power ups outta nowhere and, many times, contradictions with the premise. For example, in Naruto and Boku no Hero Academia, the protagonists start as underdogs and, later, the show reveals that they always were special (like literally being a species of Messiah), and can do whatever they want because the heck of it. And this is why it is hard to watch these anime in retrospect. It feels like a long lie. This is what I think. What about you guys??? I wanna know your opinion about this topic. I'm an open minded person, so, I can adjust my posture if that's what it calls for. Thanks in advance. |
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| Shouen power-ups are to be expected in BATTLE shounen. Many series break their own rules because of power scaling of its adversaries. At the end of the day, lots of these series start to make less sense as they go on. Look at Naruto, Bleach, Black Clover, My Hero, or any other battle shounens. It's the same godamn thing. But you know what I do? I turn off my brain and enjoy the ludicrous thing that's Battle Shounen. I enjoy that shit. I enjoy getting hyped and go wild. That's all i care about when I watch BATTLE shounen. |
| your Krillin and Yamcha examples are called Power Creep as for power of friendship its not unrealistic since the power to protect your love ones or property in times of crisis is called Adrenaline Rush |
| Most battle Shounen is not really to be taken very seriously. As an example watching something like DBZ, all it comes down to is watching 12 full episodes of two characters trash talking each other while one is powering up. Then ultimately only doing "normal" damage to the other character when they finally attack. This was one of the reason why I stopped watching DBZ in the 1st place over 2 decades ago. The battles just became pointless to watch and too predictable. |
| This is why HxH and FMAB are the golden standard for shounen and the rest are your typical shounen. Recent anime have gotten rid of most problems like that. 1.JJK with its great power system and fantastic female characters. 2.Chainsaw man being different from most shounen and orgasm worthy female characters (not by their hotness only). On the other hand, 3.MHA is kinda poor at this and sticks to the mistakes done by its predecessors but atleast the quirk system doesn't let anyone become useless like in DBZ and Naruto. But it still lacks good female characters. 4.Demon slayer does not even try anything new but keeps all characters relevant despite not having a good power system. Kny is like the most simple shounen you can find, but it's executed well. And yeah, the underdog bait is still there. Tokyo revengers is like the true underdog story, but it's not battle shounen. At the end of the day, I watch battle shounen as enjoyment and don't look much into its writing. |
| also the Rule of Cool applies to Battle Shonen the most |
Deathlydash said: mramirezh said: wasn't ki introduced when destroyed a castle with his kamehameha?After watching a significant amount of fighting shounen anime, I have identified one of their biggest issues: The collapse of the power scales. For example, in Dragon Ball Z, when the ki was introduced, the show was only about punching harder to stay relevant in the plot/history. For that reason characters like Krilin, Yamcha, Ten Shin Han, etc. are relegated and used, many times, as a comic relief. mramirezh said: but deku isn't a special or a messiah.contradictions with the premise. For example, in Naruto and Boku no Hero Academia, the protagonists start as underdogs and, later, the show reveals that they always were special (like literally being a species of Messiah) Deathlydash said: mramirezh said: wasn't ki introduced when destroyed a castle with his kamehameha?After watching a significant amount of fighting shounen anime, I have identified one of their biggest issues: The collapse of the power scales. For example, in Dragon Ball Z, when the ki was introduced, the show was only about punching harder to stay relevant in the plot/history. For that reason characters like Krilin, Yamcha, Ten Shin Han, etc. are relegated and used, many times, as a comic relief. mramirezh said: but deku isn't a special or a messiah.contradictions with the premise. For example, in Naruto and Boku no Hero Academia, the protagonists start as underdogs and, later, the show reveals that they always were special (like literally being a species of Messiah) Catch upto My Hero Academia season 5 lol |
Deathlydash said: In Dragon Ball Z, the ki was introduced as a number (Raditz radar).mramirezh said: wasn't ki introduced when destroyed a castle with his kamehameha?After watching a significant amount of fighting shounen anime, I have identified one of their biggest issues: The collapse of the power scales. For example, in Dragon Ball Z, when the ki was introduced, the show was only about punching harder to stay relevant in the plot/history. For that reason characters like Krilin, Yamcha, Ten Shin Han, etc. are relegated and used, many times, as a comic relief. mramirezh said: but deku isn't a special or a messiah.contradictions with the premise. For example, in Naruto and Boku no Hero Academia, the protagonists start as underdogs and, later, the show reveals that they always were special (like literally being a species of Messiah) |
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Deathlydash said: mr_modest said: you are saying they have great power system and female characters without explaining why they have thatThis is why HxH and FMAB are the golden standard for shounen and the rest are your typical shounen. Recent anime have gotten rid of most problems like that. 1.JJK with its great power system and fantastic female characters. 2.Chainsaw man being different from most shounen and orgasm worthy female characters (not by their hotness only). I am not saying they are some characters with peak writing or something. I'm just saying they actually do something to contribute to the plot equally as good as the male side characters. Same for the CSM girls. As for the power system, cursed energy is great because it's not something you pull out of your ass like ki. It's power is based on the characters grief or something like that. And it also has certain rules and regulations like nen. I am anime only so idk if it has more depth in the manga. |
Deathlydash said: he has multiple abilities but he isn't special or a messiah If he isn't special, then why did All might not get those quirks and only Deku. |
betaweeb said: Good answer. I really don't like how many female characters are treated in this anime genre 😅.well you almost make it sound like this is a discovery, when most of these flaws, while described fairly correctly, are known within a show's respective community and the anime community at large since basically forever. power scaling and accordingly, power escalation in these shows, are extremely hard to pull off consistently with the enormous casts many of these shows have and their length. due to the structure of a battle shounen and the need to have more exciting arcs and higher stakes as the plot moves forward, failure to do so consistently is likely and giving every character or fan favorite a major role all the time is not really feasible. such a "collapse" as you described it isn't really a defining feature of the genre, and more a consequence of a given show's success and continued publishing, which is mandated by the work culture inside magazines like shounen jump. while i agree the power of friendship thing can take you out of it due to being so unbelieveable (which i feel is a better term than unrealistic, as shows that have characters throwing laser beams at one another are not meant to be realistic), it could also be exciting, moving, fun and perfectly okay when done well, in context, accompanied by workable fight mechanics and sparingly (an example of a poor and way too frequent use of this trope IMO can be found in fairy tail). you mentioned contradictions with the premise, which is a weird way to put what you described, but i'd like to examine your example of naruto, the contradiction you mentioned is a flaw of naruto, no doubt and a failure of writing from kishimoto, that failed to understand what made his main character great and turned him very foolishly from a relatable hard working underdog, to a child of prophecy and straight up poor character. but that doesn't really mean anything regarding battle shounens, in fact it doesn't even ruin naruto (the series, the character itself was pretty much screwd) the way i see it, it's just a flaw, which might be among many in naruto but the series still has a lot to offer with its strengths if you ask me. now you also mnetioned poor treatment of female characters in battle shounen, and though again, i don't think this is a necessary staple of the genre, i do agree it is a constant trend and honestly, being treated as trophies is the least unfortunate part in my eyes within most battle shounens. when you have a system of supernatural abilities that the plot revolves around, you would think that this is a great opportunity in fiction to include female characters in a better way, where they are as important to the plot or to have many vital and interesting characters in a show, but unfortunately that isn't the case, and female characters are fewer, weaker, lamer and i would say even less fully characterised and more dependent on their male counterparts, who get a much more consistent treatment as "real" characters in a given show. to sum up my main point, i believe what you said is mostly true, but isn't really a working critisicm of the genre, and instead problems or flaws within specific shows and bad industry or cultural trends and standards, which could be major detriments, but still allow shows of this variety to be well made or enjoyed without really being inherently invalid. |
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| I guess suspension of disbelief and adjusting of expectations is required to enjoy battle shounen to the fullest. I grew up watching them, so I'm long past caring about these basic issues. The merits outweigh the shortcomings. PS: If you're interested in seeing a more refined shounen, then give One Piece a try. I'm sure it well get an objective 10 from you 😬 |
One Piece episode 914 & 915 & 1027 were a mistake and 957 brought the salvation - FMmatron |
Deathlydash said: https://www.quora.com/In-My-Hero-Academia-manga-why-hasnt-All-Might-used-the-other-6-quirks-in-One-for-All-or-does-he-even-know-the-existence-of-the-other-quirks Just to be sure, are those manga spoilers? I am anime-only that's why. |
FMmatron said: Already did it. Zoro is life, Zoro is love 😁.I guess suspension of disbelief and adjusting of expectations is required to enjoy battle shounen to the fullest. I grew up watching them, so I'm long past caring about these basic issues. The merits outweigh the shortcomings. PS: If you're interested in seeing a more refined shounen, then give One Piece a try. |
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FrostXC3 said: Here's a thought. Maybe we keep following the story and find out. Not to offend you. But you sound like a manga reader babysitting an anime-only smoothly, without spoiling anything. |
| I really dislike infinite scaling power systems, which is why Demon Slayer and FMAB are good to me. The story was written headed in a clear direction, and because a limit was set, the author doesn't need to think of BS excuses to power up their characters. From how I see it, this overall poor execution of power-ups is put in place primarily to keep the story going for a long time. I really, really dislike it when one "final boss" of an arc becomes completely irrelevant (power-level wise especially) the next arc. |
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| I've dropped One Piece for that reason, even though I've watched almost 1000 episodes. Guy literally learnt to predict future just by closing his eyes and letting his enemy beat him to pulp while reminiscing his past. Isn't that wacky, Josuke? I almost never seen shounen protagonists getting upgrades by hard working. They get everything by accident, even if it is just the blunt ability to "punch harder". After watching Hunter x Hunter I was greatly surprised how good this aspect may be executed in battle shounen. Guys actually had to work hard and make big efforts to achieve something. |
Nemo_NiemandJun 24, 2021 12:00 PM
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| Well, I hope Horikoshi did a good job to explain Deku's powers. |
| My favorite fighting shounen and seinen is JoJo. The beauty of its power system is that anyone can beat anyone and even though some things seem really powerful, with enough strategy even a rat can beat someone manipulating time or something by exploiting their shortcomings. Only exception is I watched all of db while when I was little and I was really disappointed how krillin became useless in Z and how the fights became uncreative. |
Craftys_ListJun 24, 2021 11:53 AM
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| I think once you get used to the tropes/cliches it should become a non-issue. After watching a good amount of battle shounen, you should know what you're getting into and know whether or not you're into it. Going into them expecting them to be realistic in any capacity is going in expecting too much. |
Craftys_List said: My favorite fighting shounen and seinen is JoJo. The beauty of its power system is that anyone can beat anyone and even though some things seem really powerful, with enough strategy even a rat can beat someone manipulating time or something by exploiting their shortcomings. I watched all of db while when I was little and I was really disappointed how krillin became useless in Z and how the fights became uncreative. Only exception is Because Jojo is not your typical shounen. It's gar. Opposite to most of "traditional" shounens, this genre is not for self-insertion. Guys actually have to make efforts to be successful. |
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| I don't think you really need to watch a lot of battle shone to notice this massive,glaring,obvious, flaw. Remember when Kakashi had to take a break after using the sharingan for like 5 minutes ? It just breaks the world building when throughout history every Pokemon-Ninja maxes out at level 100 But suddenly all of our main and side characters characters max out at 2000. But then it turns out that it has always been like that . Wich calls their entire society,world building and the stories past into question. |
Craftys_List said: My favorite fighting shounen and seinen is JoJo. The beauty of its power system is that anyone can beat anyone and even though some things seem really powerful, with enough strategy even a rat can beat someone manipulating time or something by exploiting their shortcomings. Only exception is I watched all of db while when I was little and I was really disappointed how krillin became useless in Z and how the fights became uncreative. Jojo simply dodges the problem by having each part as its own story. There is no need to escalate everything with no end because they essentially start a new story each time. The "power" of a stand is also very well defined ( and creative). They don't need to push up their damage output and pretend it's cool and new and exciting when Araki can just write a creative power that is actually cool,new and exciting. |
| My hero academia also has this problem.The new power up that Deku got is somehow liked by the majority and I don't understand why.The hidden power trope in Mha is absolutely BS and doesn't make sense.Instead,it only creates more flaws and plot holes. I'm actually glad Tokyo revengers doesn't have your "Power up" tropes and focuses on making the characters strong. |
 Scordolo's Recent Reviews To your eternity Vanitas no Karte |
| While I see your dragon ball point, it's not entirely accurate. Tienshenhan is not comedic relief, he's still a beast. Krillin has always been a comedian even when we took his martial arts more serious. Yamcha gave up on martial arts after the cell saga, realizing he couldn't keep up, so yeah he became a comedic relief character. And "the power of friendship" is not what gives them their power. It is what allows them in some cases to go beyond their limits as it would you or me. If someone we loved was in danger, we would be stronger for them, it's instinct. But the training that characters such as Naruto, Ichigo, and Goku went through to get to that point was extensive and grueling. Let me be very clear. Naruto is not an underdog. By appearances and the way he acts, sure. Naruto is a prodigy from the Uzumaki clan who has chakra reserves that are literally unheard of, with the nine tailed fox spirit dormant inside of him. Naruto's seemingly outta-the-blue power ups, come from the power he has within, slowly unlocking more and more throughout the series, and him learning to master what has been inside of him all along. It isn't that these power ups come from no where, it's that you don't understand where they come from or how it happened. The exact same goes for Ichigo Kurosaki. His spiritual pressure was so massive that it literally leaked out of his body in quantities that made captains believe his spiritual presence was that of another captain. This was start of the series Ichigo. His zanpakto manifested into a blade of enormous size because it was matching his spiritual energy, and guess what, he has the biggest zanpakto in the series. And there's a reason for where this power comes from. It's all there. Saiyans, Gokus race, are stated to have no limits, so they always go beyond, this isn't an unexplained power up, this is their DNA. The fact of the matter is these are the main characters for a reason. They are special, very special within their verse. They harness mass amounts of potential and how it all unfolds is explained. And as for side characters falling behind, not quite. There's usually a few very talented characters who can somewhat keep up with the hero, see Uryuu, Vegeta, Sasuke, Bakugo ect.. But realistically as time goes on, yes most character should, and do, fall way behind, because they just aren't talented enough to keep up. In short, there is no such thing as an unexplained power up in these classic shonen series. Everything is explained, in great detail, in fact. And side characters falling behind is inevitable and necessary to the main character's progression. |
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FrostXC3 said: Scordolo said: Didn't Tokyo Revengers have an elementary school kid beating up teenagers? LolMy hero academia also has this problem.The new power up that Deku got is somehow liked by the majority and I don't understand why.The hidden power trope in Mha is absolutely BS and doesn't make sense.Instead,it only creates more flaws and plot holes. I'm actually glad Tokyo revengers doesn't have your "Power up" tropes and focuses on making the characters strong. Every shounen has that kind of character so I don't get your point and Mikey actually struggles during a fight in Moebes arc unlike other op characters. |
Scordolo's Recent Reviews To your eternity Vanitas no Karte |
| you've got a bunch of points mish mashed together but it's interesting how dbz still manages to avoid most of the problems you mentioned lol |
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
| The only good battle shounen is FMAB all the rest are just long drawn out plots that take forever to get there or have no direction. JJK and Demon Slayer are better IMO than old battle shounen for many reasons. I am reading Chainsaw Man and its pretty good these newer shounen are taking what made the old shounen good and removing the bull shit like long plots, badly written female characters, long and unnecessary fights, and so on. |
Scordolo said: My hero academia also has this problem.The new power up that Deku got is somehow liked by the majority and I don't understand why.The hidden power trope in Mha is absolutely BS and doesn't make sense.Instead,it only creates more flaws and plot holes. I'm actually glad Tokyo revengers doesn't have your "Power up" tropes and focuses on making the characters strong. how exactly does this create plot holes ? to be fair I'm not done with it but I'm curious |
| I know shonen hate is high. Power scale is just a excuse... It works the same every time...where u chant..."I love my friend" or "I am doing equivalent exchange". It only the difference in ur cringe factor As for characters like krillan or yamacha.....it only natural they are not superman because they don't have any special power. But shonen side character are more developed than whatever u think. U are just unsatisfied they did not level up as goku or maybe u hate over developed characters Messiah complex u are talking is the problem of every anime...not just fighting shonen. Even in ur favorites major just as messiah as any other shonen protagonist or flcl protagonist or tatami galaxy protagonist....why those characters exactly, it could have happened to anyone else? If I am making a movie of world chess champion Viswanathan Anand, I will make him become the champion beating everyone. Not his defeat by Magnus Carlsen. It basically the story itself is about the chosen one rather the mc always being the chosen one. It's different perspectives. U talking as if why didnot they make a movie about neil armstrong's crew mate instead of neil armstrong. That kind of logical thinking make me cringe. But we all know why. It just a matter of I hate this anime so I want to find reason. I am not even sure why u expect to take away from this thread. It don't think I have given anything worth ur time, so ignore my post. I just ranting. I cant or wish to change people opinion. |
AdampkJun 24, 2021 1:19 PM
  Click for a anime mashup! Still not gone bandwagon u, keep crying. Here u are welcome to CRINGE at my EXISTENCE |
|CuteAssTiger said: Scordolo said: My hero academia also has this problem.The new power up that Deku got is somehow liked by the majority and I don't understand why.The hidden power trope in Mha is absolutely BS and doesn't make sense.Instead,it only creates more flaws and plot holes. I'm actually glad Tokyo revengers doesn't have your "Power up" tropes and focuses on making the characters strong. how exactly does this create plot holes ? to be fair I'm not done with it but I'm curious For example,Why All might (or any of the predecessor didn't get but Deku got them.By flaws I mean,it creates a huge barrier in terms of power between the villains as well as Bakugou and the rest of the class which is certainly not fair. |
Scordolo's Recent Reviews To your eternity Vanitas no Karte |
| you need to understand that these "mistakes" are pretty much always looked over because they have no relevance to the intended target audience. it is like taking Peppa Pig and talking about how much land the family legally occupies |
Scordolo said: CuteAssTiger said: how exactly does this create plot holes ? to be fair I'm not done with it but I'm curious For example,Why All might (or any of the predecessor didn't get but Deku got them.By flaws I mean,it creates a huge barrier in terms of power between the villains as well as Bakugou and the rest of the class which is certainly not fair. the scene where he unlocks that quick already heavily implies that they were waiting for someone either that they needed more people before they can use that quirk-share or that they needed a specific person to do it . i dont see how its a plothole at all when the story itself highlights it as an unusual event its totally possible that the story might end up opening holes over time but calling it a plothole now is extremely rushed. |
| Bullshit in shounen is not necessarily a problem. It all depends on how the author decides to tell the story. Bullshit wouldn't work in FMA because it tries to tell a consistent and serious story, and although it is a battle shounen, the battles are never really the focus, so it doesn't really need to bullshit its way through them since the rules of the world are enough for what it tries to do. Dragonball, on the other hand, never really tries to be consistent and it fully embrace the bullshit of its power system while focusing far more on making us care about the characters and feel like you are among friends. That's true for Jojo as well, which embraces bullshit in an even more fundamental level than most shounen. I feel like the problem is that many battle shounen try to do both at the same time: tell a serious, consistent story, and make up a load of bull to justify beeg, flashy battles. I haven't read Bleach, but by what I hear about it, it's precisely the problem: the story lost consistency when it didn't manage to get free from the shackles of its shounen roots, introducing bullshit after bullshit in its power system. Naruto does the same as well, at some point characters got so ridiculously powerful that the story became boring with pointless fight after pointless fight, feeling like a quick succession of 'gotcha!s' between the two opposing sides instead of quality story-telling. |
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Satyr_icon said: That’s true. Araki did a great job with Jojo's in that aspect (the majority of parts).Bullshit in shounen is not necessarily a problem. It all depends on how the author decides to tell the story. Bullshit wouldn't work in FMA because it tries to tell a consistent and serious story, and although it is a battle shounen, the battles are never really the focus, so it doesn't really need to bullshit its way through them since the rules of the world are enough for what it tries to do. Dragonball, on the other hand, never really tries to be consistent and it fully embrace the bullshit of its power system while focusing far more on making us care about the characters and feel like you are among friends. That's true for Jojo as well, which embraces bullshit in an even more fundamental level than most shounen. I feel like the problem is that many battle shounen try to do both at the same time: tell a serious, consistent story, and make up a load of bull to justify beeg, flashy battles. I haven't read Bleach, but by what I hear about it, it's precisely the problem: the story lost consistency when it didn't manage to get free from the shackles of its shounen roots, introducing bullshit after bullshit in its power system. Naruto does the same as well, at some point characters got so ridiculously powerful that the story became boring with pointless fight after pointless fight, feeling like a quick succession of 'gotcha!s' between the two opposing sides instead of quality story-telling. |
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