YossaRedMage said: Aastra343 said: People really think that in a world as globalized as ours there's such a thing as a country "untouched" by western/eastern ideas and concepts. People have the tendency to put Japan on a pedestal, as a pure country not influenced by that pesky SJW propaganda, but that's not true, specially amongst the younger japanese population, what can be seen in the youth's support of same-sex marriage, a topic usually associated with "the SJW", as opposed to their older pop in polls. What happens in the West does not contain itself to the West, it spreads worldwide, mainly through the internet and the global brands. A spike in left leaning tendencies in western media will spread itself to other countries, specially if it's profitable. Just look at the influence Hollywood, and therefore american culture, has had in filim all over the world over the last century. Those who think any work of art can be non-political are making a fool of themselves. Even when it's trying not to send a message, art is sending one. It may be to your liking or not, but it does have a stance and it shows on the work itself. Thinking otherwise would be seeing artists (actual humans) as non-political beings, what's absurd, for humans are political and social in nature. Support for same-sex marriage is hardly an issue any more. Anti-SJW types by and large are for same-sex marriage. I think you probably don't follow a lot of political dialogue on the intellectual dark web as it seems you are painting anti-SJWs as anti-LGBT which, as much as left-leaning media likes to say so, we aren't. SJW is used to denote far-leftists who push anti-white/anti-male reverse racism/reverse-sexism. Don't just assume because someone isn't an SJW they are against gay marriage. I agree with everything else you said there. There are certainly people on "my side" of this debate that seem to think there can be no politics in art and that Japanese culture is untouched by western political ideals. But the debate isn't really about that. It's about how those politics affect the content of anime in a future where anime becomes mainstream to the level that Hollywood movies are and where the term anime comes to define as global medium rather than a medium representative of a Japanese niche subculture. I must admit, I don't follow much the internet political discourse as of lately, specially on the dark web. When I talked about same-sex marriage, I was placing a (maybe false) dichotomy between these so-called SJWs and conservative partisans, I know there are people inbetween who are neither with a multitude of opinions. I don't actually know much about "anti-SJW" or their political stance outside of a few memes and youtube comments, so I admit I may be clueless about what I said. Even so, I have the impression conservative stances and anti-SJWs tend to overlap, but as I stated, I may just be wrong. If you have any kind of rec so I could get to know more about it, I'm open to anything. And I can certainly get your concerns about anime as a global medium, but that's it, imo it already is. Companies will always seek to maximize their profits and if there's money to be had in the West, they'll go for it. The only way to make they know what the West wants when they eventually head here is providing them the numbers. If there's more profit to be had in the SJW sphere, they'll adhere to it. If there's more in the anti-SJW side, that's where they'll flock to. SJW media only has this much widespread in the West because they give profit to those who embrace it. It's much better to discuss how to not let the japanese think they'll give them more money as opposed to other fans than to lament over what's inevitable, anime expansion to a new market full of money that is. |
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| holy shit this thread just keeps going lol i can't dedicate my entire day to this damn thing; it's not my job just a couple sidenotes @YossaRedMage YossaRedMage said: There's a reason I don't like hearing about what other people think of anime.My dig at C&T was just me indulging a bit. I wouldn't call those insults petty. If you like it then great, but there's a lot of pretentious-sounding praise for that show. It comes across as annoying and just turns people off it. There's an implication that everyone else should like it too because it's the best anime of the season (claiming that as if it's fact and not your opinion). We can argue about it's merits if you want but ultimately it comes down to taste and what we want from anime. One thing I will point out is the horribly immersion-breaking switch to English voices for the songs. It's one of the stupidest production decisions I've ever come across. There is a glorious tradition of Japanese seiyuu singing songs in anime but... Man, I'll never stop ranting if I go any further. You get my point. Like, early on I decided I wanted to watch FranXX, and that was before I knew fandom consensus seemed to bash it a lot. Unfortunately, now that I've hung out on AD (and some other anime-talking places, but mainly AD), around all this bashing of the show, my perception of the show has gone from "I'm interested in this" to "I'm interested in this, although the fandom says it's shitty". Some of the shows I'm most fond of are ones I ran into "by accident". If I listened to fandom consensus I would less likely have had these unique experiences. Also as for songs, that sounds like a reversed situation of stuff like the dub of AKB0048 where they have the Japanese songs but when they're not actually singing the songs in concert-style they're talking (and even informally singing) in English. I will still never understand why they bothered to dub that show. And I'm saying this as a person who likes dubs. But if I'm getting you right and it's the Japanese audio that has English songs, my guess is that it's an exotic foreign thing for the Japanese, considering that their perspective on the English language is basically the reverse of ours. Anyhow, I still think that you're conflating "anime's Japaneseness" with "a westerner's conception of the idea of anime's Japaneseness". Like, the thing you like about anime being Japanese is not actually the same thing that a Japanese person gets from anime. This is a subtle but important distinction, considering that it relates to arguments that hinge on "authenticity" of experience, such as an argument a number of sub watchers espouse (though I don't remember what your personal position on subs vs. dubs is, though I'm guessing you probably prefer subs). |
GlennMagusHarveyJun 13, 2019 2:24 PM
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
Aastra343 said: There's money to be made on both "sides" of this spat, so naturally we're seeing media companies cater to both.And I can certainly get your concerns about anime as a global medium, but that's it, imo it already is. Companies will always seek to maximize their profits and if there's money to be had in the West, they'll go for it. The only way to make they know what the West wants when they eventually head here is providing them the numbers. If there's more profit to be had in the SJW sphere, they'll adhere to it. If there's more in the anti-SJW side, that's where they'll flock to. SJW media only has this much widespread in the West because they give profit to those who embrace it. It's much better to discuss how to not let the japanese think they'll give them more money as opposed to other fans than to lament over what's inevitable, anime expansion to a new market full of money that is. After all, it's not like they're only making one work. They can make different works that cater to different tastes, as they've already done. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
GlennMagusHarvey said: Aastra343 said: There's money to be made on both "sides" of this spat, so naturally we're seeing media companies cater to both.And I can certainly get your concerns about anime as a global medium, but that's it, imo it already is. Companies will always seek to maximize their profits and if there's money to be had in the West, they'll go for it. The only way to make they know what the West wants when they eventually head here is providing them the numbers. If there's more profit to be had in the SJW sphere, they'll adhere to it. If there's more in the anti-SJW side, that's where they'll flock to. SJW media only has this much widespread in the West because they give profit to those who embrace it. It's much better to discuss how to not let the japanese think they'll give them more money as opposed to other fans than to lament over what's inevitable, anime expansion to a new market full of money that is. After all, it's not like they're only making one work. They can make different works that cater to different tastes, as they've already done. There's money to be made in every "subgroup", be it political or not, but the bulk of the works will cater to the most lucrative one and those that are less so will turn into niches (maybe even cult ones) with occasional passion works directed at them. People seem to fear the most their preferred genres/themes getting fewer products and sinking into obscurity than necessarily them fading out completely, from what I've gathered from this thread. |
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Aastra343 said: It seems to be a little more specific than that.GlennMagusHarvey said: There's money to be made on both "sides" of this spat, so naturally we're seeing media companies cater to both. After all, it's not like they're only making one work. They can make different works that cater to different tastes, as they've already done. There's money to be made in every "subgroup", be it political or not, but the bulk of the works will cater to the most lucrative one and those that are less so will turn into niches (maybe even cult ones) with occasional passion works directed at them. People seem to fear the most their preferred genres/themes getting fewer products and sinking into obscurity than necessarily them fading out completely, from what I've gathered from this thread. These conversations are pretty much only about stuff related to sexuality -- the things that keep getting mentioned are fanservice, lolis, and moë. |
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| Did people forget the whole reason as to why anime exists is because of westernization in the first place? Japanese culture, just like any culture that have spread around, changes and innovates according to differences of time, culture, and perspective. Since its beginning, Japan borrowed and changed from cultures around them, they were never stagnant to whatever is happening on their island. To think that a G8 country is isolated to the extend of not changing with the global village is insane. Thusly, anime was always a "Western" thing, that have changed form and sparked forth a new medium from a mixture of Japanese perspective with the west. To think that anime would not change due to the exposure of global happenings is a ridiculous notion. And to think that such a thing would only bring ""wokeness"" is even more so. Would anime change to appeal their market? Yes, just like always. But being "woke" won't mean a majority will turn to such a concept, because that's not what will appeal to many people. At most, they may be an anime or two produced, but I'd be damned to think it'll be the majority of anime. At most people will have a fit and blow it out of proportion as to how prevalent it is in media, but at the end of the day, it'll stay a niche within a certain circle, and nothing else. If anime is niche, they'll appeal to the 'largest' niche category within the medium to make the most money, because it's more of a risk to do otherwise in such a niche medium. And largest doesn't automatically mean highest amount of audience, but rather the most profitable. If anime was niche, there won't be many categories to try to appeal to, hence less variety. Less variety to choose means a lesser ability to take risk and becoming more variant while turning a viable amount of profit to sustain different categories. If anime is mainstream, many can appeal to the 'largest' category, while at the same time being able to appeal to 'large' categories, and 'just large enough' too. One can create many more niche categories, some of which many may not agree with, but is still profitable within that category. You won't need every single dedicated member from your audience to carry you all the way through, and you don't need to lick their shoes just so you can keep every single person within the medium. Thus, risktaking is more prevalent here than the other alternative, because there's more of an audience to choose from. To connect it to the comment about gaming, do you really think indie devs would flourish if gaming was a niche like in the 80s and 90s? Do you think people would be able to experiment different genres within gaming if there was that small of an audience within the medium? Also, anime is already a global mainstream medium, and has been for decades. Most wont break through to the phenomenon that battle-shounen can, but the fact that many different variants can exist within the medium aside from this one genre doesn't seem so bad after all. At the end of the day, profits will speak above controversy. |
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foxsuprise said: This. ENTIRELY this. This sums it right up.Did people forget the whole reason as to why anime exists is because of westernization in the first place? Japanese culture, just like any culture that have spread around, changes and innovates according to differences of time, culture, and perspective. Since its beginning, Japan borrowed and changed from cultures around them, they were never stagnant to whatever is happening on their island. To think that a G8 country is isolated to the extend of not changing with the global village is insane. Thusly, anime was always a "Western" thing, that have changed form and sparked forth a new medium from a mixture of Japanese perspective with the west. To think that anime would not change due to the exposure of global happenings is a ridiculous notion. And to think that such a thing would only bring ""wokeness"" is even more so. Would anime change to appeal their market? Yes, just like always. But being "woke" won't mean a majority will turn to such a concept, because that's not what will appeal to many people. At most, they may be an anime or two produced, but I'd be damned to think it'll be the majority of anime. At most people will have a fit and blow it out of proportion as to how prevalent it is in media, but at the end of the day, it'll stay a niche within a certain circle, and nothing else. foxsuprise said: Also this. Like I said earlier, with a smaller audience, anime companies are more easily pigeonholed to serve only specific audience-bases, with the result being stuff like the endless complaints about how there's too much isekai, or too much cheap harem action, or too much whatever.If anime is niche, they'll appeal to the 'largest' niche category within the medium to make the most money, because it's more of a risk to do otherwise in such a niche medium. And largest doesn't automatically mean highest amount of audience, but rather the most profitable. If anime was niche, there won't be many categories to try to appeal to, hence less variety. Less variety to choose means a lesser ability to take risk and becoming more variant while turning a viable amount of profit to sustain different categories. With a larger audience, there's more choices out there to appeal to, so anime companies can make a greater variety of shows. foxsuprise said: Excellent point. There were indie games back then but basically they'd get no distribution besides like one's family, colleagues, and neighbors, and maaaaybe one could convince the local computer store to stock a few copies of one's game. Now, between internet digital distribution and the much larger number of gamers, there's both the means and the customer base to support all sorts of niche indie projects to the point of getting thousands of customers.To connect it to the comment about gaming, do you really think indie devs would flourish if gaming was a niche like in the 80s and 90s? Do you think people would be able to experiment different genres within gaming if there was that small of an audience within the medium? |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
GlennMagusHarvey said: foxsuprise said: This. ENTIRELY this. This sums it right up. Did people forget the whole reason as to why anime exists is because of westernization in the first place? Japanese culture, just like any culture that have spread around, changes and innovates according to differences of time, culture, and perspective. Since its beginning, Japan borrowed and changed from cultures around them, they were never stagnant to whatever is happening on their island. To think that a G8 country is isolated to the extend of not changing with the global village is insane. Thusly, anime was always a "Western" thing, that have changed form and sparked forth a new medium from a mixture of Japanese perspective with the west. To think that anime would not change due to the exposure of global happenings is a ridiculous notion. And to think that such a thing would only bring ""wokeness"" is even more so. Would anime change to appeal their market? Yes, just like always. But being "woke" won't mean a majority will turn to such a concept, because that's not what will appeal to many people. At most, they may be an anime or two produced, but I'd be damned to think it'll be the majority of anime. At most people will have a fit and blow it out of proportion as to how prevalent it is in media, but at the end of the day, it'll stay a niche within a certain circle, and nothing else. foxsuprise said: Also this. Like I said earlier, with a smaller audience, anime companies are more easily pigeonholed to serve only specific audience-bases, with the result being stuff like the endless complaints about how there's too much isekai, or too much cheap harem action, or too much whatever.If anime is niche, they'll appeal to the 'largest' niche category within the medium to make the most money, because it's more of a risk to do otherwise in such a niche medium. And largest doesn't automatically mean highest amount of audience, but rather the most profitable. If anime was niche, there won't be many categories to try to appeal to, hence less variety. Less variety to choose means a lesser ability to take risk and becoming more variant while turning a viable amount of profit to sustain different categories. With a larger audience, there's more choices out there to appeal to, so anime companies can make a greater variety of shows. Thanks for agreeing with me. People somehow think that good variety and innovation will come forth from lack of popularity of this medium, which I still don't get. Many here get all defensive and try to relate it to a change becoming extreme left(?), as if that's what drives a majority of the market. Yes, change is inevitable, and brings increased production to certain trends we may not agree with. But over time, trends like those will also fade into obscurity, and it's not because of the "woke" people. It's because culture changes, and so do the interest of masses in the market. Some things may not be entirely erased though, just tweaked, but people still fear this change. To say that anime should "stay obscure" because of "normies" trying to change things within anime would make anime stale quickly. Change is not a bad thing in of itself. And if you don't like the change within the 'largest' category, there's always alternatives because there's always going to be an audience looking for those specific niches. To bar others from enjoying the medium really sets a bad taste in my mouth in regards to certain people in the anime community. I just looked at the first page, and I would like to also add your comment on anime gaining more popularity, because it makes excellent addition to how limiting others from anime isn't a good thing. GlennMagusHarvey said: The reasons for the "tropeyness" you often see people complain about -- the reasons for limiting their tropes -- are actually commercial reasons, and in fact, they are specifically because they are trying to appeal specifically to niches -- rather than to shut them out, as your reasoning suggests. Going "mainstream" by gaining popularity, ironically, would mean exposing the anime industry to a wider variety of audiences, meaning expanding the variety of niches they could serve, thus serving to de-limit the tropeyness. It would only mean they can serve more niches -- since more people means more varied tastes, and more varied tastes to appeal to means more potential ways to make money. |
foxsurpriseJun 13, 2019 4:13 PM
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| I only started watching back in 2017 and can already tell it's well over that point now. Anime has been mainstream for a while now chief |
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YossaRedMage said: The part where I said I want anime characters having sex instead of bad fanservice was me trolling.. sorry maybe I've should've been more clear on that. I thought it was a good joke at leastCome on, man. "Huge generalization"? We are talking about averages and trends here. It's always generalizations. There are exceptions, of course, but those are the exceptions that prove the rule. Second, "I was trolling" before going further with the same point in your next paragraph. Trolls aren't supposed to believe what they say, you know. I like this debate but it's a bit off-topic. I think the problem with your persepctive comes from treating sexual titillation differently from other forms of emotional content. If an anime repeatedly shows dead bodies without no context or depth to their presence to create a dark atmosphere, no one has a problem with that. But an anime can't show some tits to give life to an erotic atmosphere? Any mention of sex needs to have some deep emotional meaning or character development going on? Miss me with that sexless, puritancial nonsense. I like anime that indulge in a bit of sexual titillation. It's one of the things that makes anime such a distinctive medium and one of the core aspects of the anime 'style'. In before 'anime is a medium not a style'. Not every anime possesses the anime style and it says nothing about the value of the anime but there definitely is an anime style. Well this is just me but I'm tired of it, I do no not like it in Western series/movies either and I don't think anime is anything special when it comes to sexual titillation. To be clear I'm talking about what I consider ''bad'' fanservice, I do not believe every form of sexual titillation is bad. I see no value in trying to create an ''erotic atmosphere'' in anime like GS and SH, it completely fails unless the viewer is ready to get horny. The characters in these anime don't show any sexual attraction to each other, usually it's just boob and ass shots with some blushing coming from one side, there is hardly anime romance. Would prefer it was dealt more seriously because I find them low effort attempts to make my dick hard, I'll just watch ecchi harem if I need that or porn. What about boob and ass shots in anime is so distinctive from other mediums? The fact they are 2d lol? In what way is the presentation of sexual titillation in other mediums worse. What is ''anime style'' there's more than one style, to me anime just means Japanese animation and nothing else. There are thousands of creators and they are the ones who create anime styles. How can certain anime not have ''anime style''. You're just nitpicking what is and isn't anime style. Besides that most anime are adaptations of manga, light novels, games and visual novels, all of which will have differing art styles and content. If for example you believe Bakemono is a series that possesses anime style you're just praising the way the studio and its creators chose to adapt it, it orginally wasn't even an anime. The fact that you find fan service cringy just seems like more of this weird pathology when it comes to sex. What's wrong with a little sexiness in art? You're probably right that most of the time it's used as comedy but that's not inherently bad is it? And it's very often used for pure atmosphere too so I don't know if you have an argument here, especially when you only seem to care about sex as comedy. I think that might be part of your (and people with your mindset's) problem and why you cringe. It's an inability to take sex seriously. It reminds me of when I was watching Goblin Slayer reaction vids on YouTube (idk, I got addicted to them...) and the person would always burst out laughing when Sword Maiden's breasts are shown up close during that serious scene where she is talking to GS about her experience with the Goblins. The intention was to remind us of her femininity, of her existance as a sexual being, and to contrast it with the horrific stuff she was talking about. But people could only go "LOL BOOBS". Really made me think... Well I did say most of the time, fanservice isn't always bad and nor is erotica but it's hard to explain why something makes me cringe and why some in some cases I'm fine with it. I dropped GS and have only seen the first 5 eps but I remember her character, I see it as an intend to make me aroused and I cringe at it because it does not work. Pretty confused what you mean by reminding the viewer of her feminity and that she's a sexual being..it's just big tits that are getting zoomed in on and it's hilarous. Stuff like that happens in all media and I've never liked it unless it's connected to the character and story. I'm not saying that all erotica in art is bad in some cases it just feels cheap. Other cringy stuff is what Glenn pointed out too so I'll just copy: falling-onto-boob-grabs, accidental embarrassing panty shots, boob size jealousy, bouncy boobs, faceplanting into private parts, bouncing tits, oversized tits, faceplanting into oversized tits, butt shots, accidental entry into the ladies' locker room, accidental entry into the ladies' bathroom, and accidentally knocking over hot spring soaking pool dividers. Ofc in the comedy,ecchi and harem it will have a different effect on me tho I hope you like Bakemono but if you have this issue with fan service it seems really unlikely. The Monogatari series is probably the best example of a show that uses sexuality as an asthetic and as an atmosphere generator while still being a very earnest piece of art in it's story and character interactions which is exactly what I love about anime. I'm sure I'll like it I already watched the first episode a while ago on Netflix but it's not on there anymore so I decided to watch it later. I wasn't trying to say all fanservice is bad or that it's a huge problem, it's just unneeded in a lot of anime. From what I know Bakemono can in no way compared to anime like GS and SH, there's a big difference I've not heard of Maniac as I don't follow any kind of western media for about 2 years now. But I used to so I think I still have a lot of credentials to talk on the subject. I have a huge DVD collection from when I was in to films. As I said before though, we're talking about meainstream trends. There are always going to examples of things that buck trends, especially if one looks outside of the mainstream. Hell, for as much as I've foraken westenr media, I bet there's stilll tons of amazing low-budget movies being made but they're like modern indie games, they live in the shadow of the artisitcally barren mainstream which has all the money and eyes. Anime is the only thing where I keep up with the mainstream and its news tbh, with movies and tv series I'm usually late and wait till friends or people I follow on social media with similar taste remind me of stuff I'm most likely to enjoy or just watch old stuff. However I know about crap like Dear White People sadly.. I choose to ignore stuff like that and that's easy as a non american anyway lol. So I do sort of understand where you're coming from |
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BlueOtaku2001 said: @Ryuk9428 Of course, EVERYONE who disagrees with you is an SJW. Dude, grow up., You're doing the exact same stuff they do. Also I don't see ANY anti-white stuff. You're just making things up to fit YOUR agenda, just like SJWs and modern liberals do. I see literally no SJWs stuff except for that ONE funimation dubbed episode of Miss Kobayashi's dragon Maid. Also, Japanese anime has always had foreign characters and lesbian and gay characters. By your logic, I guess the USSR must've won the cold war, invaded Japan, forced them to create that and history has lied to us this who time. You never know, maybe you're right, so I'll jsut pop to Moscow and try to find a Soviet Uni- oh wait... communism died over 27 years ago. Again, grow up. You're doing the exact same things SJWs are supposedly doing (they're such a small minority as well). There's no white genocide either, stop acting like black supremacists do. Also, before you call me the overused word SJW, I'm a libertarian. There's no way that "SJWs are a tiny minority" that the right wing is just making a big deal over nothing about. You live in the UK so its even worse on your side of the ocean than it is on mine. Over here though we've got extremely liberal prosecutors refusing to convict black people of crimes essentially making theft legal and talking about giving free healthcare and free education and voting rights to illegal immigrants who aren't even citizens but are apparently going to be deciding our elections. They even want to give voting rights to people who are in prison for committing felonies. In college, the liberal ideology is the law of the land and it is extreme. You have to develop tactics to survive in the university environment that nobody in a democratic society should have to develop. I even have prepared responses that I use so as to diffuse certain situations and steer the topic elsewhere. So don't be acting like SJW ideology is somehow a tiny problem that we're just overblowing. I have to traverse a SJW minefield every day at college. |
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foxsuprise said: I'm not sure the people fearmongering over this potential change are the same as the people complaining that anime is annoyingly tropey/samey.People somehow think that good variety and innovation will come forth from lack of popularity of this medium, which I still don't get. Many here get all defensive and try to relate it to a change becoming extreme left(?), as if that's what drives a majority of the market. Yes, change is inevitable, and brings increased production to certain trends we may not agree with. But over time, trends like those will also fade into obscurity, and it's not because of the "woke" people. It's because culture changes, and so do the interest of masses in the market. Some things may not be entirely erased though, just tweaked, but people still fear this change. To say that anime should "stay obscure" because of "normies" trying to change things within anime would make anime stale quickly. Change is not a bad thing in of itself. And if you don't like the change within the 'largest' category, there's always alternatives because there's always going to be an audience looking for those specific niches. To bar others from enjoying the medium really sets a bad taste in my mouth in regards to certain people in the anime community. The fearmongering logic goes as follows: A. "Anime is niche because it presently features sexuality in ways that are normies can't accept." [This assumes multiple things, including the notion that "normies" never change their minds on anything, and that "normies" will also always actively object to portrayals of sexuality in anime, and that normies all have the same opinion of all of the many varied ways anime portrays sexuality, etc.] B. "We like anime because of how it features sexuality." C. "If anime goes mainstream, that means it appeals to normies." [This assumes, incorrectly, that anime can't appeal to multiple tastes, as well as the fact that anime is basically already mainstream these days.] D. "Since normies can't accept how anime presently features sexuality, there will be less of something we like about anime." E. "Therefore, normies getting into anime is bad." That's all there really is. All this stuff about "western" culture/values/tastes, "mainstream"-ization, SJWs/feminists/etc., is basically just a thing trying justify why they think "normies" don't mix with anime. Which is ironic since the mixing of "normies" and anime has been increasing since the frackin' 90s. There's a sideshow involving trying to transfer culture-war anger over Ghostbusters/Star Wars/etc. to the realm of anime by trying to shadowbox against it, saying that "SJWs" or whateverother bogeymen are intent on forcing "politics"/"political correctness"/"diversity"/"intersectionality" (a term I was introduced to earlier in this thread haha)/"LGBT" stuff/etc. into stories, but... * No one actually complains about shows like Taishou Baseball Girls or Sweet Blue Flowers. (Meanwhile, Cross Ange just seems to make half of everyone confused.) * No one actually complains about yaoi or yuri (as a cultural turf war issue at least). * No one actually complains about stuff like, for example, Miyazaki and others rather intentionally casting female characters as protagonists. * A good story can be written with any cast anyway. If one points this out then the usual response is "well the Japanese do it differently!", somehow. Well, I'll grant them one thing, which is that the social context around them is different, so the conversation among fans is different. Take High Guardian Spice for example -- what if its creators had never put out that one concept-presentation video, but had kept quiet until its eventual release? There would be no pre-emptive backlash and the work would stand on its own. The social context would be different. So, ironically, it's not about the work itself, but about the circumstances surrounding one's perception of the work. (Edit: made that last sentence stand in its own paragraph.) |
GlennMagusHarveyJun 13, 2019 5:55 PM
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
Ryuk9428 said: You have some sort of crazy right-wing dystopian fantasy going on there.There's no way that "SJWs are a tiny minority" that the right wing is just making a big deal over nothing about. You live in the UK so its even worse on your side of the ocean than it is on mine. Over here though we've got extremely liberal prosecutors refusing to convict black people of crimes essentially making theft legal and talking about giving free healthcare and free education and voting rights to illegal immigrants who aren't even citizens but are apparently going to be deciding our elections. They even want to give voting rights to people who are in prison for committing felonies. In college, the liberal ideology is the law of the land and it is extreme. You have to develop tactics to survive in the university environment that nobody in a democratic society should have to develop. I even have prepared responses that I use so as to diffuse certain situations and steer the topic elsewhere. So don't be acting like SJW ideology is somehow a tiny problem that we're just overblowing. I have to traverse a SJW minefield every day at college. I assume you're talking about the United States. Yeah I live here too. Free healthcare is good because you want people coming in for preventative care instead of skimping on preventative care only to save money, since preventative care is a crapton cheaper than having health problems balloon out control and then they get dropped in the E.R. where doctors have to treat them (because what are you going to do, check some dying person's papers before deciding whether to treat them?) at much higher cost. Free education is because it's not a good idea to have a bunch of ignorant, unemployable bumfucks everywhere, which is very bad because that's an excellent breeding ground for crime. And I like ensuring voting rights for citizens. Not interested in giving voting rights to non-citizens, regardless of their legal status. And I don't like it when fearmongerers get so worked up over "omg illegals might be voting" and make it a giant pain in the ass for people who ARE citizens to vote. Also, the recent change in Florida is for ex-felons who've served their time already. And I'm not sure where you're getting some bullshit about "refusing to convict black people of crimes essentially making theft legal". The closest thing I can think of is the Jussie Smolett case which basically simply ended with giant amounts of egg on everyone's faces and frankly speaking I'm content to leave that egg on their faces. (Also that wasn't theft.) Also both the college Democrats and the college Republicans are quite free to do their campaigning and organizing. We even get those annoying anti-abortion gits shoving their gloriously gory dead fetus pictures into the school quad just because they feel the need to guilt people into agreeing with them all the damn time. (And frankly speaking, I say let 'em have at it; they're just showing themselves off to be obnoxious, and not at all pro-life either.) But most importantly, all this has jack-all to do with anime. This whole bullshit culture war fight is mainly centered on fearmongering over sexual elements in anime anyway; you can see it in this very thread, people talk about fanservice, lolis, moë. This issue is separate from the pile of issues mentioned earlier (which, incidentally, are actually also a bunch of different issues, not just one giant ideological agglomeration, as you make them sound). |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
NthDegree said: @YossaRedMage No, you're not preserving Japaneseness of anything. Someone who truly wants to appreciate Japan would not denounce them the second it seems like it doesn't fit their own agenda. What you are preserving now is just your own ego. Societies will inevitably change, but the Japan that exists tomorrow will only exist because of the Japan of today. What you are describing is a very conditional love that only exists as long as you don't have to question your own beliefs. This is what I mean by people pushing their ideals onto a society. No offense to you, but that's just what I think. I found the change between Japanese and English jarring too, but that's hardly something that makes or breaks the show. I'm especially excited to hear what the dub is like, but I'm too hooked to wait for it. It absolutely breaks the show. Complete immersion killer. And of course you're excited for the dub. The show was clearly made with the English dub in mind and you're obviously not a purist so I'm not surprised you like dubs. Watching it in "Japanese" is like watching dubbed anime. It's clearly not the language the show was intended for. A purist who doesn't watch dubs because they want to get the most authentic experience possible would never be OK with that. Ss for the first part of your comment, I really don't know where to start. I'd ask you to go back and read my comment to get a better idea of what I'm actually saying but I get the impression our thinking is so different that we simply won't be able to understand each other. A lot of what you said is based on assumptions or just reframing the issue. I will say one thing. Yes, my love for anime and the Otaku subculture is predicated on it staying the same. But there's nothing wrong with that. You talk as though it's some holy virtue to love unconditionally and have no personal ideals. Otaku subcultural values align strongly with my own and that's why I love it. There's a suggestion from you that a true fan would love anime regardless but that's kind of dumb. What if anime became really racist or something? All love is conditional based on compatability of ideals. Aastra343 said: I must admit, I don't follow much the internet political discourse as of lately, specially on the dark web. When I talked about same-sex marriage, I was placing a (maybe false) dichotomy between these so-called SJWs and conservative partisans, I know there are people inbetween who are neither with a multitude of opinions. I don't actually know much about "anti-SJW" or their political stance outside of a few memes and youtube comments, so I admit I may be clueless about what I said. Even so, I have the impression conservative stances and anti-SJWs tend to overlap, but as I stated, I may just be wrong. If you have any kind of rec so I could get to know more about it, I'm open to anything. I shouldn't have used the term 'intellectual dark web' for a number of reasons. It's misleading and pretentious-sounding and a term only someone quite deep in to this stuff would have heard. It refers to a loose collection of people mainly on YouTube who talk about politics from a center to center-right standpoint and are highly critical of the far-left. I could shower you with recs but if I could promote one YouTube channel it would be Tim Pool. Very level-headed guy, Bernie supporter so very left-wing in some senses. Used to be more left-leaning but has been pushed to the center by how extreme far-left SJW types have taken over even the moderate-left postitions. Latest video on one of his channels (really interesting story): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzzjzQkyLaQ @GlennMagusHarvey Hey Glenn, I'm not ignoring your posts responding to mine btw. It's just a lot of it is ground that you and I have already covered. But I am reading everything. You're right about my preference for subs over dubs of course and I'm disappointed in your lack of purity. Just kidding. Kind of. As for fandom concensus... Yeah... It sucks. I'm naturally contrarian so if something is praised to high heaven it's hard for it to please me, conversely I tend to enjoy stuff more when there is an anti circle-jerk around it. Can't do much about it except be aware of the bias. I think someone would have to be somewhat of a robot to not be affected by others opinions. Other option would be to just disengage with the community but I have too much fun talking to people about anime. @Ryuk9428 I feel you with the political situation over there in the states. I follow this stuff a lot on YouTube and it's just pure insanity. Thanks for the message of agreement earlier in the thread also. |
| “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.” -Friedrich Nietzsche Aggregate scoring is bad for the anime fandom |
GlennMagusHarvey said: Ryuk9428 said: You have some sort of crazy right-wing dystopian fantasy going on there.There's no way that "SJWs are a tiny minority" that the right wing is just making a big deal over nothing about. You live in the UK so its even worse on your side of the ocean than it is on mine. Over here though we've got extremely liberal prosecutors refusing to convict black people of crimes essentially making theft legal and talking about giving free healthcare and free education and voting rights to illegal immigrants who aren't even citizens but are apparently going to be deciding our elections. They even want to give voting rights to people who are in prison for committing felonies. In college, the liberal ideology is the law of the land and it is extreme. You have to develop tactics to survive in the university environment that nobody in a democratic society should have to develop. I even have prepared responses that I use so as to diffuse certain situations and steer the topic elsewhere. So don't be acting like SJW ideology is somehow a tiny problem that we're just overblowing. I have to traverse a SJW minefield every day at college. I assume you're talking about the United States. Yeah I live here too. Free healthcare is good because you want people coming in for preventative care instead of skimping on preventative care only to save money, since preventative care is a crapton cheaper than having health problems balloon out control and then they get dropped in the E.R. where doctors have to treat them (because what are you going to do, check some dying person's papers before deciding whether to treat them?) at much higher cost. Free education is because it's not a good idea to have a bunch of ignorant, unemployable bumfucks everywhere, which is very bad because that's an excellent breeding ground for crime. And I like ensuring voting rights for citizens. Not interested in giving voting rights to non-citizens, regardless of their legal status. And I don't like it when fearmongerers get so worked up over "omg illegals might be voting" and make it a giant pain in the ass for people who ARE citizens to vote. Also, the recent change in Florida is for ex-felons who've served their time already. And I'm not sure where you're getting some bullshit about "refusing to convict black people of crimes essentially making theft legal". The closest thing I can think of is the Jussie Smolett case which basically simply ended with giant amounts of egg on everyone's faces and frankly speaking I'm content to leave that egg on their faces. (Also that wasn't theft.) Also both the college Democrats and the college Republicans are quite free to do their campaigning and organizing. We even get those annoying anti-abortion gits shoving their gloriously gory dead fetus pictures into the school quad just because they feel the need to guilt people into agreeing with them all the damn time. (And frankly speaking, I say let 'em have at it; they're just showing themselves off to be obnoxious, and not at all pro-life either.) But most importantly, all this has jack-all to do with anime. This whole bullshit culture war fight is mainly centered on fearmongering over sexual elements in anime anyway; you can see it in this very thread, people talk about fanservice, lolis, moë. This issue is separate from the pile of issues mentioned earlier (which, incidentally, are actually also a bunch of different issues, not just one giant ideological agglomeration, as you make them sound). There are merits to the healthcare system being considered an emergency service instead of being privatized and we already have primary and secondary education as free. However, the problem with making these services free to people who aren't even citizens of the country is that you encourage enormous swaths of people to cross the border illegally and our country's infrastructure can't handle all these people and we can't give free stuff to everybody without it costing us too much money. Its obvious why Democrats want to give illegals the right to vote though. Its about pandering. If you simply promise to pander to certain groups, you don't need to convince anybody about the legitimacy of your ideas, all you have to do is convince certain groups to vote more and they support you in such overwhelming numbers that you will always have the advantage as long as you promise to pander to them. So if the Democrats promise free healthcare, and free college and all that to illegal immigrants. Everyone and their mother from Central America will try to come to the US whether we can handle all those people or not and they will always vote Democrat because they perceive them to be on their side. And the Democrats don't seem to understand when something they are proposing is unrealistic and cannot be done. The government does not have endless coffers. Solutions that are too Utopian become dystopian when you refuse to acknowledge that they won't work and go through with it anyway. It would be like if everybody decided that it would be nice if we could all have sex indiscriminately without condoms on and if somebody brought up that every girl is going to be getting pregnant without a man to take care of the child, or that STDs will spread rampantly you just say "no they won't" and go through with your idea anyway (this isn't actually that far from the truth, there's a lot of people right now who basically act this way). People who are in prison for felonies have lost the right to vote by committing destructive acts. Lots of Democratic candidates like Bernie Sanders want to start giving people who are currently in prison on felony charges, the right to vote. So the guy who murdered an entire family of people now has the right to decide our laws. The crux of why I got into this was BlueOtaku saying that SJWs are a tiny minority of the country that isn't causing any problems. I'm saying that they are a huge part of society, they are influencing some of the biggest policies of our government, colleges are becoming extreme brainwashing tools, and most of the news station as well as Hollywood movies are dedicated to peddling SJW ideology. If SJWs believe they can convince the government to give free college to people who aren't even citizens of our country and give voting rights to violent felons, then its not unfathomable to believe that they might try to make the UN force Japan to change its laws regarding anime content. |
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YossaRedMage said: Oh, don't worry about it; this thread is a sprawling mess. I can't even keep up with it myself.@GlennMagusHarvey Hey Glenn, I'm not ignoring your posts responding to mine btw. It's just a lot of it is ground that you and I have already covered. But I am reading everything. I guess I've (at least historically) taken the choice of disengaging with the community. Which honestly I should do more of but somehow I got myself into this endless cycle of responding to crap on MAL's AD lol. But even now I still try to ignore MAL scores and reviews, the chatter on /r/anime, and so on. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| Falling for the good ol left vs right, when will you guys realize that it's all bullshit? They just want to keep us running around in circles, they enjoy seeing us fight with each other. You honestly believe the folks in power truly hate each other? Come on. |
Please learn about cel animation and its technical process. Learn how special effects and backlighting were done without computers. |
| 1. Anime has already gone mainstream. 2. Anime is already and always has been political. |
MrAMJun 13, 2019 6:47 PM
| My anime blog Latest Post: The Zero Requiem (Analysis of the Ending of Code Geass) |
| @YossaRedMage I was going to say that as well. Everybody supports certain cultures based on feeling that it aligns with their values more. That's the whole point of joining certain communities is finding the place you feel supports and aligns with your values. Unconditionally supporting anything is just stupid. |
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GlennMagusHarvey said: The fearmongering logic goes as follows: A. "Anime is niche because it presently features sexuality in ways that are normies can't accept." [This assumes multiple things, including the notion that "normies" never change their minds on anything, and that "normies" will also always actively object to portrayals of sexuality in anime, and that normies all have the same opinion of all of the many varied ways anime portrays sexuality, etc.] B. "We like anime because of how it features sexuality." C. "If anime goes mainstream, that means it appeals to normies." [This assumes, incorrectly, that anime can't appeal to multiple tastes, as well as the fact that anime is basically already mainstream these days.] D. "Since normies can't accept how anime presently features sexuality, there will be less of something we like about anime." E. "Therefore, normies getting into anime is bad." That's all there really is. All this stuff about "western" culture/values/tastes, "mainstream"-ization, SJWs/feminists/etc., is basically just a thing trying justify why they think "normies" don't mix with anime. Which is ironic since the mixing of "normies" and anime has been increasing since the frackin' 90s. I see...there seems to be a lot of focus on reasoning due to sexual appeal in terms of anime. Though like you're saying here, it gives a lot of assumptions that "normies" will try to stop the sexual aspect in anime or not be fans of such themselves. Kinda sad that it puts newer audiences as if they're a hivemind that will outright reject sexuality in anime enough to make it disappear rather than simply adapting to liking such or looking at other anime alternatives. GlennMagusHarvey said: There's a sideshow involving trying to transfer culture-war anger over Ghostbusters/Star Wars/etc. to the realm of anime by trying to shadowbox against it, saying that "SJWs" or whateverother bogeymen are intent on forcing "politics"/"political correctness"/"diversity"/"intersectionality" (a term I was introduced to earlier in this thread haha)/"LGBT" stuff/etc. into stories, but... * No one actually complains about shows like Taishou Baseball Girls or Sweet Blue Flowers. (Meanwhile, Cross Ange just seems to make half of everyone confused.) * No one actually complains about yaoi or yuri (as a cultural turf war issue at least). * No one actually complains about stuff like, for example, Miyazaki and others rather intentionally casting female characters as protagonists. * A good story can be written with any cast anyway. Huh, never thought how the fact that anti-sjw(?) don't complain about these more progressive shows. Though admittedly, I have seen some people call a few things regressive here and there, but there's always an anime/manga alternative out there that can satisfy that niche. Plus, they're a minority voice anyways that often gets blown out of proportion in regards to wanting to change a show rather than explaining why they don't like it and move on to other series. GlennMagusHarvey said: Agreed, the culture does have its differences that can make people who say this correct, but it also has its similarities with other cultures. I don't think things are always as entirely different as people perceive it to be. Good music, good animation, and like you said, good story with a strong cast can make any person from either the west or east converse about these qualities about the same show. To think Japan is that different from anyone else is a bit strange to me.If one points this out then the usual response is "well the Japanese do it differently!", somehow. Well, I'll grant them one thing, which is that the social context around them is different, so the conversation among fans is different. GlennMagusHarvey said: Take High Guardian Spice for example -- what if its creators had never put out that one concept-presentation video, but had kept quiet until its eventual release? There would be no pre-emptive backlash and the work would stand on its own. The social context would be different. So, ironically, it's not about the work itself, but about the circumstances surrounding one's perception of the work. (Edit: made that last sentence stand in its own paragraph.) I don't think I have to anything to add to that, especially the bolded part. A bit off-topic, but how is High Guardian Spice doing nowadays? After the announcement, it seems like it went under the radar and there is no new info about it since almost a year ago. |
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| @GlennMagusHarvery Ugh... I was going to leave it at my last post for tonight (I'm UK and it's fucking late lol) but you're on the wrong side of this argument when it comes to western politics. The landscape is fucked right now. If you didn't even know the term 'intersectionality' before this thread then you simply don't keep up with the culture war enough to have an informed opinion on it. Much less accuse @ryuk9428 of having a "right-wing dystopian fantasy". You don't even have to be right-wing to understand how insane the left have gone over the past decade which you'd know about if you followed this stuff in detail. There is massive court case going on right now with Oberlin University. A local bakery owned by a white family was robbed by a group of black students and the son of the owner followed them and it got physical. The deranged, perpetually angry, brainwashed activists from the university only saw white people vs black people and led a hate campaign which devastated the lives of the white family. The univeristy encouraged this behaviour so much that the fmaily sued the university and the family has been awarded over 40 million dollars in damages. Would all this have happened if the family were black and the students were white? Or if both parties were black? This is one small example of how bad things have got and how much american institutions are at the mercy of crazy students on a perpetual witch hunt for the racists / sexists / whatever other boogie man that they think is under their bed. Then there's how big tech companies are being taken over by these same students who are leaving college completely brainwashed to see everything as an issue of racism/sexism where white man = bad. SJWs can say and do the most hateful things to others in the name of their cause on Twitter and Facebook but God help you if you tell a rape joke or suggest that there might be left-wing bias in the media. Ugh... I thought I was done... Ok so this: There's a sideshow involving trying to transfer culture-war anger over Ghostbusters/Star Wars/etc. to the realm of anime by trying to shadowbox against it, saying that "SJWs" or whateverother bogeymen are intent on forcing "politics"/"political correctness"/"diversity"/"intersectionality" (a term I was introduced to earlier in this thread haha)/"LGBT" stuff/etc. into stories, but... * No one actually complains about shows like Taishou Baseball Girls or Sweet Blue Flowers. (Meanwhile, Cross Ange just seems to make half of everyone confused.) * No one actually complains about yaoi or yuri (as a cultural turf war issue at least). * No one actually complains about stuff like, for example, Miyazaki and others rather intentionally casting female characters as protagonists. * A good story can be written with any cast anyway. You're making a lot of assumptions which I often see from people that aren't familiar with the actual thoughts and opinions of people on the anti-SJW camp of the culture war. We are not anti-LGBT in general. I have no problem with Yaoi or Yuri and I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of people on the side I'm representing here feel the same way. It is the way western media pushes gay characters in a forced, preachy way that is a problem. We have no problems with female characters as protags. Again, western media pushes them in a way that is forced and preachy. Movies of the past are full of amazing female protags like Ripley from Alien. You won't find too many people in the anti-SJW camp who have a problem with Alien. But when a bunch of smug, virtue-signalling Hollywood types praise modern movies for having female leads as if it's something new and brave and innovative when it is the complete opposite (seriously, go back and think about it) of those things, it's infuriating. But to stay on track regarding anime, it mostly comes down to the sexuality stuff you mentioned. Western movies and video games over the past decade have gradually began to show women who are both older and uglier than before because God forbid a man become aroused at a woman on a screen. There was a video I watched the other day about this phenomenon in video games though it would take far too long to find it. I'm sure the same thing exists in movies. There is no celebration of the beauty of women, and particularly youthful women, when they are at their most beautiful. There has also been an abandonment of femininity. Imagine a major blockbuster movie being released today that stars a beauftul, 18 yr old, shy, modest girly-girl. The outrage would break the internet. |
| “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.” -Friedrich Nietzsche Aggregate scoring is bad for the anime fandom |
Ryuk9428 said: The people who cross our border illegally are doing so not because "oh the US looks nice" but because conditions are horrifyingly shit in their home countries. Fixing the immigration problem means helping those people actually fix their home countries, so they have less of this desperation incentive to come here in the first place.There are merits to the healthcare system being considered an emergency service instead of being privatized and we already have primary and secondary education as free. However, the problem with making these services free to people who aren't even citizens of the country is that you encourage enormous swaths of people to cross the border illegally and our country's infrastructure can't handle all these people and we can't give free stuff to everybody without it costing us too much money. Ryuk9428 said: Except they don't.Its obvious why Democrats want to give illegals the right to vote though. Ryuk9428 said: Might be news to you but if you look closely at the newly passed constitutional amendment here in Florida there are exceptions excluding people convicted of murder and sexual offenses (who presumably are relegated to the previously default process of having to petition the governor and cabinet if they want their voting rights back). I've basically ignored the politicking of any of the 2020 candidates so I can't speak for them, but I think this arrangement is a good baseline idea. (Meanwhile the Republicans here still had to monkey-wrench this by insisting that all the crazy fees, that come from for-profit correctional facilities charging their inmates out the wazoo just because they can and just so that they can promise to work for free for horribly broke small county governments, are part of the sentence...)People who are in prison for felonies have lost the right to vote by committing destructive acts. Lots of Democratic candidates like Bernie Sanders want to start giving people who are currently in prison on felony charges, the right to vote. So the guy who murdered an entire family of people now has the right to decide our laws. Ryuk9428 said: Oh then why is it that people are just fine when the college Republicans have events? Because there's no "brainwashing" going on; it's just that people have their own political opinions, and they are indeed entitled to their own political opinions.colleges are becoming extreme brainwashing tools Ryuk9428 said: Oh please, and presumably, right-wing media outlets are the only ones telling the truth because they're fighting back against the eeeeevil SJWs?and most of the news station as well as Hollywood movies are dedicated to peddling SJW ideology. If there's anything wrong with the news it's that everything is sensationalized and often cut short and left to headlines. "This person said this. But that person said that! Flashy images!" FWIW, best evening news program is the PBS News Hour. No-nonsense, sit-down talking, detailed analysis of information. No dramatic emphases, no shocking revelations, completely unsexy reporting that I thought was boring as a kid because it really is boring unless you're actually willing to sit down and get into depth while also not reacting to every possible stimulus a political topic can have. In short, it's only watchable by people who can sit down and stay silent for at least ten minutes while listening to people they hate talk. Ryuk9428 said: This is predicated on connecting a long series of unrelated issues and presuming that there's some sort of shadowy uber-powerful cabal of evil SJWs behind everything wrong in this world. Quite a lot considering that actual "SJWs" are shitposters on tumblr writing outrageous statements for reactions and letting off steam.If SJWs believe they can convince the government to give free college to people who aren't even citizens of our country and give voting rights to violent felons, then its not unfathomable to believe that they might try to make the UN force Japan to change its laws regarding anime content. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
Cabron said: Political issues don't even actually operate on this left/right dichotomy, unless people try to force it to do so.Falling for the good ol left vs right, when will you guys realize that it's all bullshit? They just want to keep us running around in circles, they enjoy seeing us fight with each other. You honestly believe the folks in power truly hate each other? Come on. The left/right dichotomy is a load of crap. Edit: okay i'm moving the reply to YossaRedMage to another post |
GlennMagusHarveyJun 13, 2019 6:58 PM
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
Cabron said: Falling for the good ol left vs right, when will you guys realize that it's all bullshit? They just want to keep us running around in circles, they enjoy seeing us fight with each other. You honestly believe the folks in power truly hate each other? Come on. Oh hey, you said something I actually agree with. That's a first from you Cabron lol. I mean, left vs right is still a thing socially and culturally, but I share you nihilism regarding the powers that be. They have a singular will and whatever party is in power means fuck all. |
| “In individuals, insanity is rare; but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.” -Friedrich Nietzsche Aggregate scoring is bad for the anime fandom |
YossaRedMage said: The culture war is bullshit anyway. It's a bunch of people trying to turn individual instances of stuff into some sort of mass conclusion that they try to force onto everything, then guilt people into listening to them.If you didn't even know the term 'intersectionality' before this thread then you simply don't keep up with the culture war enough to have an informed opinion on it. YossaRedMage said: I think you misunderstood me. I know that people don't object to LGBT. It's just that people complain about the actual characters when the problem isn't the characters but the social context.We are not anti-LGBT in general. I have no problem with Yaoi or Yuri and I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of people on the side I'm representing here feel the same way. It is the way western media pushes gay characters in a forced, preachy way that is a problem. YossaRedMage said: I totally agree with you that it's making much hay of little to say it's so great that they're starring female leads. Starring a female lead can be a legit interesting thing, but that alone doesn't make a work greater or lesser.We have no problems with female characters as protags. Again, western media pushes them in a way that is forced and preachy. Movies of the past are full of amazing female protags like Ripley from Alien. You won't find too many people in the anti-SJW camp who have a problem with Alien. But when a bunch of smug, virtue-signalling Hollywood types praise modern movies for having female leads as if it's something new and brave and innovative when it is the complete opposite (seriously, go back and think about it) of those things, it's infuriating. But meanwhile, it's also not a reason to shit on something just because it has a female (or LGBT or minority or whatever) protag. Take the Ghostbusters movie for example, which is a popular target of this sort of hate. The usual reasoning given is "they forced female characters into this, that's why it's bad!". But no, one can write a competent story with a female cast. If the movie is as bad as they say it is, then the fault is not the choice of cast gender, it's the fault of the writing. (And meanwhile there are some people who are "but they used to be male why are they now female??? they changed it now it sucks" but that's actually a different thing.) YossaRedMage said: Is showing women who are older and uglier a problem? (lol, what was that about realism in video games?)But to stay on track regarding anime, it mostly comes down to the sexuality stuff you mentioned. Western movies and video games over the past decade have gradually began to show women who are both older and uglier than before because God forbid a man become aroused at a woman on a screen. There was a video I watched the other day about this phenomenon in video games though it would take far too long to find it. I'm sure the same thing exists in movies. Besides, it's not like sexy female characters in videogames stopped existing. YossaRedMage said: And you can celebrate that as much as you want. You can draw beautiful women. You can write stories featuring beautiful women. You can make sculptures of beautiful women. You can buy and sell posters of beautiful women. You can preach to others about the greatness of the beauty of women.There is no celebration of the beauty of women, and particularly youthful women, when they are at their most beautiful. But no one is obligated to attend your celebration. People will attend as they please. YossaRedMage said: ...I can't imagine there being any outrage, as long as it's a well-written story.There has also been an abandonment of femininity. Imagine a major blockbuster movie being released today that stars a beauftul, 18 yr old, shy, modest girly-girl. The outrage would break the internet. Well, there's one exception, and that's if whoever made that movie made some sort of giant big deal out of "OH I'M GOING TO MAKE THIS ABOUT A RETURN TO TRADITIONAL GENDER ROLES, BECAUSE SOCIETY HAS FORGOTTEN FEMININITY, blah blah blah". But that would be analogous to what you're saying the SJWs are doing wrong. And that would also prove my point right: It's not actually about the work itself. It's about the social context of that work. It's people's fault for looking at a work through a culture war lens, and trying to use these works of art -- including criticism of them -- as weapons in their stupid war. |
GlennMagusHarveyJun 13, 2019 7:14 PM
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
foxsuprise said: Frankly speaking, people who aren't interested in these things will just treat it as a part of entertainment they're not interested in. If someone's a fan of "sports", that doesn't mean that they like soccer and baseball equally, or that they like the Yankees and the Red Sox equally. If someone's a fan of "foreign films", that doesn't mean that they like anime movies. And so on.I see...there seems to be a lot of focus on reasoning due to sexual appeal in terms of anime. Though like you're saying here, it gives a lot of assumptions that "normies" will try to stop the sexual aspect in anime or not be fans of such themselves. Kinda sad that it puts newer audiences as if they're a hivemind that will outright reject sexuality in anime enough to make it disappear rather than simply adapting to liking such or looking at other anime alternatives. Meanwhile, the people who are into the niche stuff will continue to be into it, and the people who serve that niche will continue to serve it because there's money to be made there. So all that sexy Saber fanart and figurines aren't going anywhere. foxsuprise said: I have no idea; I wasn't particularly interested in the character art anyway. But if they went under the radar, it's probably better for them anyway.A bit off-topic, but how is High Guardian Spice doing nowadays? After the announcement, it seems like it went under the radar and there is no new info about it since almost a year ago. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| anime has been mainstream for a long ass time bruh |
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| @GlennMagusHarvey Yeah I agree, their countries are terrible places to live and need to be fixed. That's one of the biggest reasons I support more liberal drug policy is to drain the drug cartels of their income source. In the meantime though, we can't fix things by just having America become a poverty/drug war refugee camp. Fox News is the only mainstream news station that really has a conservative bias to their reporting. Every other news station that is mainstream is either clearly liberal, or left-leaning. And ok, you got College Republicans, but outside of one little club in each campus, the rest of college has an extreme left-wing bias. A study published found that 39% of colleges have no Republican professors at all. Among all colleges, they found that the ratio of Democrat professors to Republican professors was extremely lopsided in every subject you can think of, even the math and science fields. Overall, there are 10 Democrat professors for every Republican despite the numbers of people voting Democrat and Republican in America being about even. Once you exclude military academies though, the gap becomes even bigger. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2018-09-17/colleges-have-way-too-many-liberal-professors https://onenewsnow.com/education/2018/05/05/39-of-colleges-have-0-republican-professors They found that there wasn't a single subject that had more Republican professors than Democrat professors. Meanwhile though in history, philosophy, and psychology, they found the ratio of Democrats to Republicans to be 17 to 1. 54% of students have stopped themselves from sharing an idea in class because they thought it would be politically incorrect and 30% of students have self-censored outside of class for fears of being politically incorrect. This is despite the fact that most of the students themselves are very liberal and would probably agree with politically correct doctrine. https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/red-alert-politics/liberalism-is-rampant-on-campus-and-ruining-academia Another study found that 70% of girls aged 18-29 now are Democrats compared to 54% in 2014 and compared to 49% of 18-29 year old men. And that's not even breaking it down by college educated girls vs non-college educated girls as they found the college educated girls have even more of a liberal bias. This means that potentially as much as 80% of young women in college are left-leaning and based on my personal experiences I'd say this is definitely true. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/millennial-women-are-increasingly-identifying-this-way-2018-03-24 |
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Ryuk9428 said: And why should professors be chosen based on their political leanings? Particularly in math and science fields, but even in the social sciences. I'd want people who are competent in their field, who are able to teach their students to apply proper methods of analysis, critical thinking, self-skepticism and bias correction, and question everything they do for the purpose of logical rigor. (Logical rigor, not contrarianism.)A study published found that 39% of colleges have no Republican professors at all. Among all colleges, they found that the ratio of Democrat professors to Republican professors was extremely lopsided in every subject you can think of, even the math and science fields. Overall, there are 10 Democrat professors for every Republican despite the numbers of people voting Democrat and Republican in America being about even. Once you exclude military academies though, the gap becomes even bigger. Ryuk9428 said: So? Is there some sort of grand scale of the universe that says that there should be an equal number of Democrats and Republicans in order for cosmic destiny to be balanced?Another study found that 70% of girls aged 18-29 now are Democrats compared to 54% in 2014 and compared to 49% of 18-29 year old men. And that's not even breaking it down by college educated girls vs non-college educated girls as they found the college educated girls have even more of a liberal bias. This means that potentially as much as 80% of young women in college are left-leaning and based on my personal experiences I'd say this is definitely true. No, these are just political party labels. We've had entire political parties come and go before. It happened to the Federalists, the Democratic-Republicans, the Whigs,...maybe the Republicans are on the way out. Who knows. And the same can be said of ideological labels. There's no cosmic balance to be had between them. These are just labels, for collections of ideological, political, and policy ideas. Sometimes the labels change in meaning over time, and sometimes they aren't even consistent with the result of people with the same label disagreeing harshly with each other. But at the end of the day they're all just conveniences for simplifying one's understanding of large groups of people. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| I mean I know why I don't support republicans (me a female). 1. They want to make this nation a theocracy where their religion has rule over my body and what I do. As an atheist, kinda just don't want this nation to have anything to do with god. 2. They are anti-sex and anti-porn in general. IDK why you think sexuality is in danger from SJW when the most powerful groups... like.... IDK Evangelical Christians are the main group fighting against porn. 3. They want to keep me poor by not providing healthcare so I have to stay on disability in order to exist. IDK. Seem like good self interested reasons for myself. Oh and Republicans dominate radio and even the regular news stations are more centrist to be honest. The only really liberal space is like... certain youtube channels (which I watch). I don't really like the right's "right to be racist, sexist, and homophobic" form of "tolerance". I actually quite liked McCain back in the day but the way the party has conducted itself ever since has disappointed me. Oh and their is this weird push happening to make child marriage legal in the south and I think that is gross. Oh and Republicans push a provably horrible economic plan every time they are elected. They only like to give even more tax breaks to rich people because they donate to them. It is a real conflict of interest. |
Energetic-NovaJun 13, 2019 9:04 PM
The anime community in a nutshell.  |
| noooo i don't want anime to be mainstream i hate normies so much urghghhghghgh ahhhhh!!!!! nonono |
| @GlennMagusHarvey You should totally know, in Japan, there are movements to abolish yaoi run by gay men who think BL is bad for the gay community and only gay men should write gay romance stories in manga. Most of these people have been found to be misogynistic. Because I guess when you don't need women, pretty easy to be. Also there are conservative anti-porn gays. Some people may not be aware. But it is funny listening to Tumblr people parrot such things set in motion by TERFs and MGTOW and acting like it is some sort of social justice. But you gotta realize a lot of those people are teenagers learning their own way, but hey, you are the one who brought up tumblr shitposters lol which is so true. Can't expect people to know everything. But enjoyed reading this thread cause of you calling anime mainstream. Cause it really has been since at least 2006. But lol people saing it was going mainstream in the 90's was pretty hilarious. ah internet. |
| The anime community in a nutshell. |
GlennMagusHarvey said: Ryuk9428 said: And why should professors be chosen based on their political leanings? Particularly in math and science fields, but even in the social sciences. I'd want people who are competent in their field, who are able to teach their students to apply proper methods of analysis, critical thinking, self-skepticism and bias correction, and question everything they do for the purpose of logical rigor. (Logical rigor, not contrarianism.)A study published found that 39% of colleges have no Republican professors at all. Among all colleges, they found that the ratio of Democrat professors to Republican professors was extremely lopsided in every subject you can think of, even the math and science fields. Overall, there are 10 Democrat professors for every Republican despite the numbers of people voting Democrat and Republican in America being about even. Once you exclude military academies though, the gap becomes even bigger. Ryuk9428 said: So? Is there some sort of grand scale of the universe that says that there should be an equal number of Democrats and Republicans in order for cosmic destiny to be balanced?Another study found that 70% of girls aged 18-29 now are Democrats compared to 54% in 2014 and compared to 49% of 18-29 year old men. And that's not even breaking it down by college educated girls vs non-college educated girls as they found the college educated girls have even more of a liberal bias. This means that potentially as much as 80% of young women in college are left-leaning and based on my personal experiences I'd say this is definitely true. No, these are just political party labels. We've had entire political parties come and go before. It happened to the Federalists, the Democratic-Republicans, the Whigs,...maybe the Republicans are on the way out. Who knows. And the same can be said of ideological labels. There's no cosmic balance to be had between them. These are just labels, for collections of ideological, political, and policy ideas. Sometimes the labels change in meaning over time, and sometimes they aren't even consistent with the result of people with the same label disagreeing harshly with each other. But at the end of the day they're all just conveniences for simplifying one's understanding of large groups of people. So how come when it comes to a giant difference in the number of Democrat and Republican professors do people say that "it just happened that way" but if women are only 40% of the workers in STEM fields instead of 50%, feminists pitch a fit? If there's a small gap in the numbers, then it makes sense, you can explain it by saying it just happened that way. But when 40% of colleges have literally not a single Republican professor in their entire faculty, it looks suspicious to me. Its been documented that many colleges refuse to hire professors with Republican views and that professors who do not have tenure yet have been fired for expressing conservative views. Its not that there needs to be an equal number of professors to be "balanced." Liberals might just be more attracted to the professor position. But when you have numbers this lopsided, its worth checking into to see if there's a censoring of people. When somewhere between 75-85% of college girls are liberals, it shows that there is a total dominance of liberal ideology on college campuses. The professors are super liberal and the students are too. This is why you see so much insanity coming out of US colleges. You can't tell me that there isn't any kind of indoctrination going on when such a high percentage of the young women going to college are so liberal. |
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Ryuk9428 said: That's because (2) they don't pitch a fit but it's just a topic of conversation, and (1) political party membership is not gender.So how come when it comes to a giant difference in the number of Democrat and Republican professors do people say that "it just happened that way" but if women are only 40% of the workers in STEM fields instead of 50%, feminists pitch a fit? |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
Energetic-Nova said: I mean I know why I don't support republicans (me a female). 1. They want to make this nation a theocracy where their religion has rule over my body and what I do. As an atheist, kinda just don't want this nation to have anything to do with god. 2. They are anti-sex and anti-porn in general. IDK why you think sexuality is in danger from SJW when the most powerful groups... like.... IDK Evangelical Christians are the main group fighting against porn. 3. They want to keep me poor by not providing healthcare so I have to stay on disability in order to exist. IDK. Seem like good self interested reasons for myself. Oh and Republicans dominate radio and even the regular news stations are more centrist to be honest. The only really liberal space is like... certain youtube channels (which I watch). I don't really like the right's "right to be racist, sexist, and homophobic" form of "tolerance". I actually quite liked McCain back in the day but the way the party has conducted itself ever since has disappointed me. Oh and their is this weird push happening to make child marriage legal in the south and I think that is gross. Oh and Republicans push a provably horrible economic plan every time they are elected. They only like to give even more tax breaks to rich people because they donate to them. It is a real conflict of interest. Nobody is really anti-sex. People need sex, its like a vitamin for your brain. If its missing then your mind is not going to be right. Its more a matter of looking at things and realizing that there needs to be regulations on what people do in regards to sex. The hookup culture's philosophy is basically to throw out all rules and regulations around sex and its been a complete disaster. We've got huge numbers of single mothers now with absent fathers, we've created this gross culture of using people and then throwing them away and furthermore using sex as a form of bragging about your popularity. Tell me which sides actually sounds like they respect women more. One side tells you the most empowering thing you can do is behave like a live sex toy for Tinder fuckboys sending you dick pics and "sup babe wanna fuck" messages. The other side, tells you that you should find a man who's ready to have a relationship with you, that he should be gentlemanly in his behavior and if the two of you do end up having children, that he should be ready to be a father and provide for them. The hookup culture promoted by feminists really just encourages irresponsible behavior and it has really hurt gender relations as men and women look at the people they hookup with as points in a game that they play with each other. The moderate Christians who promote relational sex are doing so because that's how you promote responsible sexual behavior. You'll notice that in the relationship context, Christians are all about sex. They even recommend scheduling sex so that you don't forget to do it. Once you're in a relationship, you can have sex to your heart's content and the two of you are responsible for solving any issues that may arise. As far as the quality goes, studies have proven that sex in relationships is much more satisfying for both male and female participants than having one night stands are. SJWs aren't "anti-sex" per se. They are anti feminine forms of sexuality. They want females to express their sexuality exactly the same way as males do and they are anti anything that looks like it appeals to men. So the portrayal of young, beautiful girls in skimpy clothing bothers SJWs because its something that's done because men like it. SJWs don't really like anything that caters to men, especially something that caters to men's preference for younger, more feminine girls. But nobody, on the right or left, complains about erotic novels that are created to appeal to women. People need to jerk off, the only ones denying that are really extreme Christians that nobody really listens to, including most Christians. |
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Ryuk9428 said: Energetic-Nova said: I mean I know why I don't support republicans (me a female). 1. They want to make this nation a theocracy where their religion has rule over my body and what I do. As an atheist, kinda just don't want this nation to have anything to do with god. 2. They are anti-sex and anti-porn in general. IDK why you think sexuality is in danger from SJW when the most powerful groups... like.... IDK Evangelical Christians are the main group fighting against porn. 3. They want to keep me poor by not providing healthcare so I have to stay on disability in order to exist. IDK. Seem like good self interested reasons for myself. Oh and Republicans dominate radio and even the regular news stations are more centrist to be honest. The only really liberal space is like... certain youtube channels (which I watch). I don't really like the right's "right to be racist, sexist, and homophobic" form of "tolerance". I actually quite liked McCain back in the day but the way the party has conducted itself ever since has disappointed me. Oh and their is this weird push happening to make child marriage legal in the south and I think that is gross. Oh and Republicans push a provably horrible economic plan every time they are elected. They only like to give even more tax breaks to rich people because they donate to them. It is a real conflict of interest. Nobody is really anti-sex. People need sex, its like a vitamin for your brain. If its missing then your mind is not going to be right. Its more a matter of looking at things and realizing that there needs to be regulations on what people do in regards to sex. The hookup culture's philosophy is basically to throw out all rules and regulations around sex and its been a complete disaster. We've got huge numbers of single mothers now with absent fathers, we've created this gross culture of using people and then throwing them away and furthermore using sex as a form of bragging about your popularity. Tell me which sides actually sounds like they respect women more. One side tells you the most empowering thing you can do is behave like a live sex toy for Tinder fuckboys sending you dick pics and "sup babe wanna fuck" messages. The other side, tells you that you should find a man who's ready to have a relationship with you, that he should be gentlemanly in his behavior and if the two of you do end up having children, that he should be ready to be a father and provide for them. The hookup culture promoted by feminists really just encourages irresponsible behavior and it has really hurt gender relations as men and women look at the people they hookup with as points in a game that they play with each other. The moderate Christians who promote relational sex are doing so because that's how you promote responsible sexual behavior. You'll notice that in the relationship context, Christians are all about sex. They even recommend scheduling sex so that you don't forget to do it. Once you're in a relationship, you can have sex to your heart's content and the two of you are responsible for solving any issues that may arise. As far as the quality goes, studies have proven that sex in relationships is much more satisfying for both male and female participants than having one night stands are. SJWs aren't "anti-sex" per se. They are anti feminine forms of sexuality. They want females to express their sexuality exactly the same way as males do and they are anti anything that looks like it appeals to men. So the portrayal of young, beautiful girls in skimpy clothing bothers SJWs because its something that's done because men like it. SJWs don't really like anything that caters to men, especially something that caters to men's preference for younger, more feminine girls. But nobody, on the right or left, complains about erotic novels that are created to appeal to women. People need to jerk off, the only ones denying that are really extreme Christians that nobody really listens to, including most Christians. Have fun. I have been married for 5 and in my relationship for 10. He was my first boyfriend and he is a far left socialist. Saying women have to be feminine is part of that control issue I have. Kinda don't like saying men gotta be masculine either. People can be what they want. I am a feminist nice try. I wear lolita clothing one day and wear jeans and a t-shirt the next. I would like the freedom to walk around my own apartment without a top on cause it is hot without having to worry if the window is closed. xD IDK if you wank off, I just want it to be legal. I hate religious folks trying to impose their values. Took forever for my mother in law to leave a man who was beating her, cheating on her, and disrespecting her all because she believed in an invisible man in the sky. Not even hook up culture. Anti-sex means anti-sexuality. The sort of conservationism displayed with idol culture. The right to wear skimpy clothing was actually a hard fought right by feminists. The religious folks are the ones who fought against that. Pretty sure Christians are listened to as they are a majority in this country. |
Energetic-NovaJun 13, 2019 10:08 PM
| The anime community in a nutshell. |
HotPocketChris said: i thought by the title you meant, "kissanime goodbye", and that scared me cuz i like free anime and paying for anime? oh boy that would suck big time man I am glad I am not the only one who read it that way. |
| The anime community in a nutshell. |
Energetic-Nova said: I don't think I even use kissanime enough so that's why I didn't notice that until people started mentioning it (earlier in the thread).HotPocketChris said: i thought by the title you meant, "kissanime goodbye", and that scared me cuz i like free anime and paying for anime? oh boy that would suck big time man I am glad I am not the only one who read it that way. Regardless, though, it's still an overly dramatic title. "Kiss anime goodbye", like anime will be gone, forever! a love never to return! we will miss it dearly... |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
GlennMagusHarvey said: I don't think I even use kissanime enough so that's why I didn't notice that until people started mentioning it (earlier in the thread). I don't use it at all. I use VRV and I pay for anime. Was hoping to have a kick at people being sad about it being shut down where there are so many other sites. |
| The anime community in a nutshell. |
Energetic-Nova said: Ryuk9428 said: Nobody is really anti-sex. People need sex, its like a vitamin for your brain. If its missing then your mind is not going to be right. Its more a matter of looking at things and realizing that there needs to be regulations on what people do in regards to sex. The hookup culture's philosophy is basically to throw out all rules and regulations around sex and its been a complete disaster. We've got huge numbers of single mothers now with absent fathers, we've created this gross culture of using people and then throwing them away and furthermore using sex as a form of bragging about your popularity. Tell me which sides actually sounds like they respect women more. One side tells you the most empowering thing you can do is behave like a live sex toy for Tinder fuckboys sending you dick pics and "sup babe wanna fuck" messages. The other side, tells you that you should find a man who's ready to have a relationship with you, that he should be gentlemanly in his behavior and if the two of you do end up having children, that he should be ready to be a father and provide for them. The hookup culture promoted by feminists really just encourages irresponsible behavior and it has really hurt gender relations as men and women look at the people they hookup with as points in a game that they play with each other. The moderate Christians who promote relational sex are doing so because that's how you promote responsible sexual behavior. You'll notice that in the relationship context, Christians are all about sex. They even recommend scheduling sex so that you don't forget to do it. Once you're in a relationship, you can have sex to your heart's content and the two of you are responsible for solving any issues that may arise. As far as the quality goes, studies have proven that sex in relationships is much more satisfying for both male and female participants than having one night stands are. SJWs aren't "anti-sex" per se. They are anti feminine forms of sexuality. They want females to express their sexuality exactly the same way as males do and they are anti anything that looks like it appeals to men. So the portrayal of young, beautiful girls in skimpy clothing bothers SJWs because its something that's done because men like it. SJWs don't really like anything that caters to men, especially something that caters to men's preference for younger, more feminine girls. But nobody, on the right or left, complains about erotic novels that are created to appeal to women. People need to jerk off, the only ones denying that are really extreme Christians that nobody really listens to, including most Christians. Have fun. I have been married for 5 and in my relationship for 10. He was my first boyfriend and he is a far left socialist. Saying women have to be feminine is part of that control issue I have. Kinda don't like saying men gotta be masculine either. People can be what they want. I am a feminist nice try. I wear lolita clothing one day and wear jeans and a t-shirt the next. I would like the freedom to walk around my own apartment without a top on cause it is hot without having to worry if the window is closed. xD IDK if you wank off, I just want it to be legal. I hate religious folks trying to impose their values. Took forever for my mother in law to leave a man who was beating her, cheating on her, and disrespecting her all because she believed in an invisible man in the sky. Not even hook up culture. Anti-sex means anti-sexuality. The sort of conservationism displayed with idol culture. The right to wear skimpy clothing was actually a hard fought right by feminists. The religious folks are the ones who fought against that. Pretty sure Christians are listened to as they are a majority in this country. I don't think its illegal anywhere to be naked in your own home. Yes an abusive spouse is a perfectly valid reason to leave them. Although I'd like to see divorce rates go down there is no absolute saying that every divorce is a bad idea and therefore it should be illegal in all cases. I think we can agree on that. Having a gender neutral world is like sucking the color out of everything because certain colors could be potentially offensive or because some people just want to wear white and black shirts all the time. I saw this one dystopian movie where people literally saw everything in black and white because the society was trying to achieve this perfect kind of equilibrium. There was a lot more than that but the black and white part was just part of it. Anyway, having a gender neutral world would be a lot like that black and white world. Or having a world where everybody agrees with each other and thinks the exact same things. There's a little spice that's lost in getting rid of that. But people are starting to see that spice as offensive and controlling now. Now I'm against the idea that men should be aggressive specifically, because that's just promoting anti-social behavior. But I feel like a major spice to the world would be lost if men and women acted exactly like each other. I think the way gender roles are in anime looks like a pretty nice world to live in. Societies have to impose rules on people to a certain extent so that things can go smoothly. Any experiment with absolute freedom results in a kind of anarchy that is bad for almost everybody. That's because immediate gratification is usually not how you build a happy stable life. I'm not saying hooking up should be illegal by force of government. But there is nothing to be gained from promoting the pump and dump culture as a lifestyle to young people. Its harmful to both genders. I think people are slightly going about it the wrong way though. It might be more effective to show the positive benefits of being in a relationship rather than just saying hooking up is immoral. I don't think its immoral per se, its just not really good for us and its not good for that behavior to be too widespread. |
Ryuk9428Jun 13, 2019 11:12 PM
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Energetic-Nova said: The right to wear skimpy clothing was actually a hard fought right by feminists. The religious folks are the ones who fought against that. Pretty sure Christians are listened to as they are a majority in this country. There was also a bunch of feminists who fought to outright ban things such as pornography for a while. They were routed by the sex-positives during the period in the movement that's amusingly referred to as the feminists sex wars, during the transition from the second wave over to the third wave, albeit the name in of itself feels kind of ironic because sex-positive feminists aren't necessarily liberal about pornography, but are instead very control and reconstruct oriented to remove things they don't want people fapping to. You can see it with some of the ones on this site like InkSpider, who identify as sex-positive feminists but outright push to gatekeep and expel people from the fucking anime fandom who express interest in sexual things they find discomforting and has a history of going around preaching to people about what's alright for them to fap to. That's still anti-sex, it's just "let's control the people's private lives and decide what they can find sexual pleasure in" instead of "let's purge things like pornography entirely from people's private lives." Which, like I said earlier, it's not like the purge-minded ones weren't a pretty prominent part of feminist discourse up until the early '90s or so. Anti-porn feminists largely going the way of the dinosaur is progress, I guess, and I think that's good because anti-porns are still the worse party, but the endgoal of what took their place is still something I consider deeply intolerable. Feminism is for sexual liberation when it suits the narrative of their movement, i.e. the whole free the nipple thing was due to perceived gender equality and focused on double standards involving the amount of skin that could be revealed across genders, not sexual liberty. If they cannot narrativize it in such a way, they have some very noted anti-sex tendencies spread across the movement. They are largely sexually regressive when it comes to matters of pleasure and indulgence, especially in the realm of media. Either way, it's not out to liberate jack shit in this regard if it doesn't suit their grander narrative. Portraying them as heroes of sexual liberty, believing as much, and trying to convince others of as much is just setting you and anybody who subscribes to this idea up to be knifed in the fucking back due to expectations the majority of movement isn't capable of upholding. Sex-positive feminism is a reconstruction oriented concept in practice, not a liberty oriented one. It's better than advocating a porn holocaust like older gens of feminists or the religious right often do, but it's very, very far from good or even tolerable. A lesser evil can still be a really damning evil. It should still be noted I'm not throwing out accusations of being incapable of achieving as much, though >_> Inciteful rhetorics and paranoia run rampant and there are plenty of feminists who still display that sort of mentality about pornography, sure, and that is a problem that should not be ignored, but I'm under the impression that it's still going to be more capable of housing this discussion than the religious right, which I perceive it as less capable of being transformative given how it's hardcoded moral values coming from a higher entity to them, and less ideology based. I'm still convinced that people who get fed up with feminism's anti-porn tendencies and run to the right because of as much are the dumbest fucking people on the planet, even if I'm not willing to absolve feminism of these issues whatsoever. |
ManabanJun 14, 2019 12:19 AM
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| @YossaRedMage You misunderstand me. You can be conservative for all I care. However, that is most certainly not 'preserving Japaneseness'. What I hate is that you are trying to use Japan to prop up your own narrow-minded viewpoint. You are misrepresenting an entire country for your selfish reasons. So please, next time just say that you're like that because you want to. It's your business alone, don't drag other societies into it. As for C&T... If the language it's intended for is English, shouldn't a purist watch it in English too? Since I'm assuming their logic is to watch it 'the way it was intended to'. For the record, I watch most of my stuff in Japanese too, since that's what fits the setting (neither Japanese nor English is my native language, so it makes little sense to prefer one over the other). However, if the characters speak English in-universe then that's the language I prefer watching. That's how immersion works. Like... You can't seriously say you watched Black Lagoon in sub? If so, you're missing out so bad! It's not that sub is bad but the dub is just so much better. |
| Honestly, why are you worrying? There's lots of old stuff you can watch |
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Ryuk9428 said: The point is that somehow when a completely symmetric sexual transaction occurs between a male and female you manage to create asymmetry. Why is the story you're telling here not reversed?Tell me which sides actually sounds like they respect women more. One side tells you the most empowering thing you can do is behave like a live sex toy for Tinder fuckboys sending you dick pics and "sup babe wanna fuck" messages. The other side, tells you that you should find a man who's ready to have a relationship with you, that he should be gentlemanly in his behavior and if the two of you do end up having children, that he should be ready to be a father and provide for them. The answer is obvious: you base it on the assumption that females don't want sex and want children. Every single human being that I know will be mortified by the mere thought of having to be responsible for children and having a family; that's not a gendered thing. If those people weren't interested in doing all this they simply wouldn't be doing it now would they? |
 It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
| @Ryuk9428, @Energetic-Nova, @Manaban I cannot believe y'all niggers are seriously having this semantics no-true Scotsman debate about "feminism" like it's a coherently defined movement. Is there some kind of central authority that gives out "feminism cars" to prospective members that have to prove a shared ideology? No not really; it's an utterly vague term that means whatever the complete fool interested in semantics debates wants it to mean and various groups and persons that would style themselves "feminist" often see not eye to eye. Any man that seriously attack or defend "feminism" shows that he isn't interested in facts but merely in no true-scotsman semantics debates.and emotionally laden labels. |
It is obvious that "obscenity" is not a term capable of exact legal definition; in the practice of the courts, it means "anything that shocks the magistrate". — Bertrand Russell |
Sphinxter said: the very fact that someone gets up in the morning, logs on to mal and decides to argue semantics is enough indication that they're beyond hope.@Ryuk9428, @Energetic-Nova, @Manaban I cannot believe y'all niggers are seriously having this semantics no-true Scotsman debate about "feminism" like it's a coherently defined movement. Is there some kind of central authority that gives out "feminism cars" to prospective members that have to prove a shared ideology? No not really; it's an utterly vague term that means whatever the complete fool interested in semantics debates wants it to mean and various groups and persons that would style themselves "feminist" often see not eye to eye. Any man that would seriously attack or defend "feminism" shows that he isn't interested in facts but merely in no true-scotsman semantics debates.and emotionally laden labels. |
I'm also filled with pure-hearted ulterior motives. |
Sphinxter said: @Ryuk9428, @Energetic-Nova, @Manaban I cannot believe y'all niggers are seriously having this semantics no-true Scotsman debate about "feminism" like it's a coherently defined movement. Is there some kind of central authority that gives out "feminism cars" to prospective members that have to prove a shared ideology? No not really; it's an utterly vague term that means whatever the complete fool interested in semantics debates wants it to mean and various groups and persons that would style themselves "feminist" often see not eye to eye. Any man that seriously attack or defend "feminism" shows that he isn't interested in facts but merely in no true-scotsman semantics debates.and emotionally laden labels. There is actually different movements under the feminist banner. So, there are TERFs, Radicatical feminists, lesbian feminist sepratists, and Cultural Feminists who I pretty much unilaterally disagree with and feel they are extremists. People can be wrong about their own label. |
Energetic-NovaJun 14, 2019 9:30 AM
| The anime community in a nutshell. |
Manaban said: Energetic-Nova said: The right to wear skimpy clothing was actually a hard fought right by feminists. The religious folks are the ones who fought against that. Pretty sure Christians are listened to as they are a majority in this country. There was also a bunch of feminists who fought to outright ban things such as pornography for a while. They were routed by the sex-positives during the period in the movement that's amusingly referred to as the feminists sex wars, during the transition from the second wave over to the third wave, albeit the name in of itself feels kind of ironic because sex-positive feminists aren't necessarily liberal about pornography, but are instead very control and reconstruct oriented to remove things they don't want people fapping to. You can see it with some of the ones on this site like InkSpider, who identify as sex-positive feminists but outright push to gatekeep and expel people from the fucking anime fandom who express interest in sexual things they find discomforting and has a history of going around preaching to people about what's alright for them to fap to. That's still anti-sex, it's just "let's control the people's private lives and decide what they can find sexual pleasure in" instead of "let's purge things like pornography entirely from people's private lives." Which, like I said earlier, it's not like the purge-minded ones weren't a pretty prominent part of feminist discourse up until the early '90s or so. Anti-porn feminists largely going the way of the dinosaur is progress, I guess, and I think that's good because anti-porns are still the worse party, but the endgoal of what took their place is still something I consider deeply intolerable. Feminism is for sexual liberation when it suits the narrative of their movement, i.e. the whole free the nipple thing was due to perceived gender equality and focused on double standards involving the amount of skin that could be revealed across genders, not sexual liberty. If they cannot narrativize it in such a way, they have some very noted anti-sex tendencies spread across the movement. They are largely sexually regressive when it comes to matters of pleasure and indulgence, especially in the realm of media. Either way, it's not out to liberate jack shit in this regard if it doesn't suit their grander narrative. Portraying them as heroes of sexual liberty, believing as much, and trying to convince others of as much is just setting you and anybody who subscribes to this idea up to be knifed in the fucking back due to expectations the majority of movement isn't capable of upholding. Sex-positive feminism is a reconstruction oriented concept in practice, not a liberty oriented one. It's better than advocating a porn holocaust like older gens of feminists or the religious right often do, but it's very, very far from good or even tolerable. A lesser evil can still be a really damning evil. It should still be noted I'm not throwing out accusations of being incapable of achieving as much, though >_> Inciteful rhetorics and paranoia run rampant and there are plenty of feminists who still display that sort of mentality about pornography, sure, and that is a problem that should not be ignored, but I'm under the impression that it's still going to be more capable of housing this discussion than the religious right, which I perceive it as less capable of being transformative given how it's hardcoded moral values coming from a higher entity to them, and less ideology based. I'm still convinced that people who get fed up with feminism's anti-porn tendencies and run to the right because of as much are the dumbest fucking people on the planet, even if I'm not willing to absolve feminism of these issues whatsoever. IDK. I don't follow InkSpider. She is absolutely not my friend. And I don't think she is a sex positive feminist. More like a liberal feminist. Liberal feminists are more about equality in the law like Gloria Steinem. Sex Positive feminist is more like Betty Dodson. Gloria is not a woman I really agree with often at all. And Ink Spider has a lot of opinions like Gloria, not Betty. But she has some hints of radfem, which is to say, caring more about women's liberation than caring about true equality (you know, like Gloria, who annoys me). Which is honestly the part where we fight like cats and dogs. Betty Dodson just... wrote books about female masturbation and helps women to orgasm. She made paintings of herself being raped and called it "hot stuff". Also she said 3rd Wave Feminism was Anti-Sex and she feels like Feminism really lost it's way for a while there and hopes the 4th wave is more positive going forward. And yeah I noticed that Ink very much wavers with whenever it seems to suit her and seems anti-male sexuality. Not really saying you have to pick a side between liberation and equality either. And neither are inherently extreme. It is prob good to waver on topics which women simply have different needs than men do, which is where female liberation is usually at it's best. There are jobs that still prevent women from going to the toilet to change their feminine products as much as they need to. There are issues liberation is better for. So, "free the nipple" <-- this movement is about equality. And I am definitely not the porn police. Look at the shit I read and even give good scores. XD I am no better than most hentai enthusiasts for sure. I am very pro drawing instead of filming "problematic" porn. I think that is one of the best things about anime and manga! Nobody sexually got hurt. Now there are issues with slave wages and such which yeah I also care about but there also isn't much I can do about worker's rights in Japan all the way over here. But manga is pretty much... like the best space really. I really hate censorship. And yeah, including the Japan censorship. There is a lot. |
Energetic-NovaJun 14, 2019 9:55 AM
| The anime community in a nutshell. |
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