| I've found over the years shows like SAO, Akame Ga Kill, ect are defended despite the piss poor writing. I get that people enjoy them, but I don't understand how people defend them, other than by enjoyment. It leads me to question if anime fans as a majority read? What I mean by that is do many anime fans read actual novels, not light novels and manga. Do they understand poor writing, such as lack of world building, character development, pacing and not writing Gary Stu and Mary Sue main characters? *Art is Subjective is not a defense. Art in all forms can be Subjective & Objective. There is skill, technique and talent in all forms of art, especially writing. *For those getting offended and stating I am being dismissive of light novel: I like them too, but the simple fact is Light Novels are called that because they are young adult fiction in Japan. |
JokerVenturaOct 27, 2018 4:21 PM
| “I just spent the last two years thinking that you guys knew more than me about life and I just found out that you guys are just as dumb as me.” “Duh-doy.” “Yeah, duh-doy.” |
JokerVentura said: I've found over the years shows like SAO, Akame Ga Kill, ect are defended despite the piss poor writing. I get that people enjoy them, but I don't understand how people defend them, other than by enjoyment. It lead me to question if anime fans as a majority read? What I mean by that is do many anime fans read actual novels, not wafer thin light novels and manga. Do they understand poor writing, such as lack of world building, character development, pacing and not writing Gary Stu and Mary Sue main characters? Last time I checked reading manga and light novels also counted as read. |
JokerVentura said: I've found over the years shows like SAO, Akame Ga Kill, ect are defended despite the piss poor writing. I get that people enjoy them, but I don't understand how people defend them, other than by enjoyment. It lead me to question if anime fans as a majority read? What I mean by that is do many anime fans read actual novels, not wafer thin light novels and manga. Do they understand poor writing, such as lack of world building, character development, pacing and not writing Gary Stu and Mary Sue main characters? Well, a big thing is a lot of people probably understand that they're bad but they're also escapist novels and not exactly aimed at the same type of person as normal novels for the same reasons. You can read LNs and recognize the elements that are bad and the elements that are good, and enjoy the medium despite that. If you complain about gary stu's and mary sue's then chances are, you're not the target audience. That being said, there are a lot of awful WN/LNs out there. The same could be said for any creative medium. 90% of everything is shit. |
| lets not forget the art of reading subtitles. |
| Sonic X is basically an isekai |
| Most anime fans don't even read much manga, let alone books. RafaelPereira97 said: Last time I checked reading manga and light novels also counted as read. A lot of them have the same problems as anime, though, since they are made to the same audience overall. |
 |
meatbun_ said: Most anime fans don't even read much manga, let alone books. RafaelPereira97 said: Last time I checked reading manga and light novels also counted as read. A lot of them have the same problems as anime, though, since they are made to the same audience overall. that depend on the manga magazine serious stuff that is serialized on Big comic original is not meant to the Otaku with loli Fetissh. |
| Anime fans tend to be introverts. Introverts read more than extroverts I imagine. If you count online articles too I think for the most part yes. Due to the rise of the internet people read more now than ever although it does not neccessarily have to be about educational stuff which is typically associated with reading. |
 |
| There are tons of books with poor writing. There are many out there who only read YA novels and that is it (similar target age/appeal early to late teens etc). For the record I am not saying all YA books are bad but they have just as much variance in quality as anime or manga. Honestly things like Mary Sues/Stu's are way more common in Western YA fiction than anime/manga (mainly YA novels but can be seen in other formats). So as a result I would hardly see how their opinions on writing would be better than the average anime watcher. As for me yeah I do read books. Most of what I read is just non fiction relating to history as my other hobby is being a casual history buff. I have read many "classics" because of school Brave New World, Lord of the Flies, Of Mice and Men, Hamlet, To Kill A Mockingbird etc. I have also gone out of my way to read other classics not mandated by school like Crime and Punishment. My absolute favorite piece of fiction ever will always be LOTR and just anything by Tolkien. LOTR while well regarded isn't something that is put up there as one of the best stories ever written but it appealed to me at a young age and was really influential in terms of my appreciation for books and fantasy in general. I wouldn't regard myself as being a good critic I tend to be actually be fairly forgiving in my honest opinion and I bet many will find my taste and what I like to be trash lol. Not to reignite the debate but art while can be judged objectively in some cases it still is mostly subjective and the reaction will depend on the reader/viewer. |
BilboBaggins365Oct 25, 2018 5:57 PM
| no; in fact the iliteracy rate is at an all time high between anime watchers :( |
 |
| Some anime fans read, some don't (such as me, I don't read very often). Oh, and by the way, AGK manga isn't much better than the anime. |
  |
| I generally don't read anything outside of stuff that was required for school except subtitles. Since I get very minimal enjoyment from reading, tend to lack any significant imagination, and just can't be bothered to focus on something I find so uninteresting. I also think that many references to good or bad writing tend to be some of the dumbest misapplied critiques for shows. To the point that it basically loses all meaning and is just a buzzword at this point. |
GamerDLMOct 25, 2018 6:26 PM
RafaelPereira97 said: that depend on the manga magazine serious stuff that is serialized on Big comic original is not meant to the Otaku with loli Fetissh. Yeah, but they are the minority though. And honestly it's hard to develop critical thinking if you keep just to one or other medium, or genre. Not even limited to books: movies and comic books help as well. Varris said: Dude, just taste. I found some of the characters in AgK to be well more compelling than Naruto and One Piece which I guess you think is well-written since it's in your favorites. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it has bad writing. If your gonna complain about this complain about something that has objectively bad writing (like that smartphone iseki one that I can't remember the name of) The character writing in AgK is objectively bad, though. A lot of them doesn't even get any development, they just die out of nowhere and apparently we are supposed to care about them because they show us a flashback of their past. That doesn't mean you can't like them, but that's not how a character is supposed to be. It's not even bad writing per se, just lazy, which might be even worse. At least Naruto took some time with most of their characters, even though I don't really like any of them. |
Satyr_iconOct 25, 2018 6:35 PM
|
| I love reading. I read a lot of Crime fiction and fantasy, also read a couple of Biographies. |
Varris said: There's no series where every single character gets tons of character development to satisfying degree. That shouldn't be used as an excuse for the abhorrent character writing of AkG. Not even the "main characters" are anything to write home about. Varris said: Your judging the entire manga by it's lowest point. I just mentioned one thing about it, never the entire manga - but now that you mention it, yeah, AgK doesn't really have any redeeming qualities apart from being fun sometimes. The awful characters are just the most laughable aspect of it. |
|
Varris said: I guess your just in the love to hate category then. I have a feeling that your not going to listen if I try to talk to you about it so what do you think is well written? Like specifically what manga/LN? You could try, but I doubt it would go anywhere. I mean, you wouldn't agree with my criticisms of it either. For what I think, comparing it to character driven stories like Ping Pong or 3-gatsu wouldn't be fair, so Dorohedoro is the closest thing that comes to mind. It's the "same" idea as Akame ga Kill: a big cast of characters which both heroes and villains get their fair share of screentime and loads of violence. But instead of trying to make us care about the characters by using flashbacks at the moment of their meaningless deaths, Dorohedoro's characters are likeable because of how they act and interact with each other throughout the story. They never use cheap drama to make us care about them. |
|
JokerVentura said: I've found over the years shows like SAO, Akame Ga Kill, ect are defended despite the piss poor writing. I get that people enjoy them, but I don't understand how people defend them, other than by enjoyment. It lead me to question if anime fans as a majority read? What I mean by that is do many anime fans read actual novels, not wafer thin light novels and manga. Do they understand poor writing, such as lack of world building, character development, pacing and not writing Gary Stu and Mary Sue main characters? Seems like you don't understand that art is subjective. |
JokerVentura said: I've found over the years shows like SAO, Akame Ga Kill, ect are defended despite the piss poor writing. I get that people enjoy them, but I don't understand how people defend them, other than by enjoyment. It lead me to question if anime fans as a majority read? What I mean by that is do many anime fans read actual novels, not wafer thin light novels and manga. Do they understand poor writing, such as lack of world building, character development, pacing and not writing Gary Stu and Mary Sue main characters? I'm pretty sure too few people read, in general. |
| I hated SAO for every reason that you said above. ...but implying that fans of said shows are illiterate/don't read enough is pretty excessive, don't you think? |
 |
JokerVentura said: Have you ever asked yourself what these standards that define "good" writing, such as sufficient worldbuilding and character development, apt pacing, and avoiding overpowered characters...where these factors even came from?I've found over the years shows like SAO, Akame Ga Kill, ect are defended despite the piss poor writing. I get that people enjoy them, but I don't understand how people defend them, other than by enjoyment. It lead me to question if anime fans as a majority read? What I mean by that is do many anime fans read actual novels, not wafer thin light novels and manga. Do they understand poor writing, such as lack of world building, character development, pacing and not writing Gary Stu and Mary Sue main characters? The answer is that they came from people asking themselves why they experienced enjoyment of a story. And in fact, not all classic lit even necessarily uses all of these things. Epic legends often feature overpowered characters, for example, whose point it is to be fated to succeed. Worldbuilding elements are frequently implied rather than explicitly spelled out; in fact some of those light novels you pan include far more worldbuilding than people typically see in a piece of classic lit, particularly modern ones which use reader confusion as a tool. (And LNs are typically not "wafer thin" but actually quite thick.) To slavisly stick to these standards is to ignore the fact that people actually DO enjoy these works, rather than trying to understand them and learn from their experiences to create more enduring and well-respected works of art. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| I understand that I am allowed to like flawed shows, and just because certain shows are well written don't make them enjoyable to watch. |
| Honobono Log - best slice of life short -------------------------------------------- most kawaii loli overlord ---------------------------- Donquixote Doflamingo AMV - Control |
| yeah i read lots lots of anime subtitles |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
| I can defend akame ga kill as much as you want And anohana's writing ain't the best shit out there |
| Most underated anime on mal: https://myanimelist.net/anime/4651/Yume_no_Crayon_Oukoku?q=Yume%20ni%20crayon |
GlennMagusHarvey said: JokerVentura said: Have you ever asked yourself what these standards that define "good" writing, such as sufficient worldbuilding and character development, apt pacing, and avoiding overpowered characters...where these factors even came from?I've found over the years shows like SAO, Akame Ga Kill, ect are defended despite the piss poor writing. I get that people enjoy them, but I don't understand how people defend them, other than by enjoyment. It lead me to question if anime fans as a majority read? What I mean by that is do many anime fans read actual novels, not wafer thin light novels and manga. Do they understand poor writing, such as lack of world building, character development, pacing and not writing Gary Stu and Mary Sue main characters? The answer is that they came from people asking themselves why they experienced enjoyment of a story. And in fact, not all classic lit even necessarily uses all of these things. Epic legends often feature overpowered characters, for example, whose point it is to be fated to succeed. Worldbuilding elements are frequently implied rather than explicitly spelled out; in fact some of those light novels you pan include far more worldbuilding than people typically see in a piece of classic lit, particularly modern ones which use reader confusion as a tool. (And LNs are typically not "wafer thin" but actually quite thick.) To slavisly stick to these standards is to ignore the fact that people actually DO enjoy these works, rather than trying to understand them and learn from their experiences to create more enduring and well-respected works of art. Yes, not all writing is the same, there are different ways to write and being experimental can lead to greatness. The examples I gave though do not fall into this category. Also the factors of character development and world building are important. It comes from storytelling before there even was writing. Paint me a picture of where it happened and explain to me why I should care about this persons story. It's basic technique and there are many different ways to do this in one way or another, completely leaving it out is bad writing. Yes, people enjoy many of these thing and I already know why they do, its like junk food, its fun, sloppy and I'm guilty of it too, but I can distinguish between what I like due to great writing and just due to pure enjoyment, even if it's not really good. |
| “I just spent the last two years thinking that you guys knew more than me about life and I just found out that you guys are just as dumb as me.” “Duh-doy.” “Yeah, duh-doy.” |
Well, that's enough for me but they have to say which parts they enjoyed |
Akerakai said: I can defend akame ga kill as much as you want And Anohana's writing ain't the best shit out there #1 - I don't remember saying Anohana is the best shit, unless you're referring to it being one of my favourite shows, which means it's personally one of my favourites. I don't think it's the best written show ever, but it is still very well written. #2 - Sure, go for it since you offered to, I'd actually love to hear a defense of Akame ga Kill. Please explain how it is objectively good, despite poor character development, using death only for shock value, its massively bad tonal shifts and cringe villains. |
JokerVenturaOct 26, 2018 3:13 AM
| “I just spent the last two years thinking that you guys knew more than me about life and I just found out that you guys are just as dumb as me.” “Duh-doy.” “Yeah, duh-doy.” |
Kerylon said: I hated SAO for every reason that you said above. ...but implying that fans of said shows are illiterate/don't read enough is pretty excessive, don't you think? Sorry I should have worded my OP better, I didn't mean they're illiterate. What I meant is the more well written and badly written novels you read, the more you can understand a vast difference between writing in other forms of entertainment such as anime. I actually have a well read friend who loves SAO, but he doesn't read novels, he reads a lot of non-fiction, pseudo-science books. |
| “I just spent the last two years thinking that you guys knew more than me about life and I just found out that you guys are just as dumb as me.” “Duh-doy.” “Yeah, duh-doy.” |
| I think what you mean is whether people are versed in critical analysis and literary theory and the answer is probably no for most of them. Remove the medium-based elitism and the black and white sounding view of 'good' writing based on listing a few random criteria and I might even agree to the bit about people overextending their abilities to defend a show critically just because they enjoyed it even though they don't even need to do so. It often feels like once they enjoy something, they're just gonna defend it no matter what, even if they have to ignore everything the other person says or twist the facts. Rather than defending/explaining their enjoyment, they feel compelled to defend the show and in the process mix up their enjoyment with the actual content of the show which often leads to inconsistent arguments and misunderstandings, which in turn lead to fights and insults. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
JokerVentura said: maybe when you actually explain your claims on why akame ga kill is awfulAkerakai said: I can defend akame ga kill as much as you want And Anohana's writing ain't the best shit out there #1 - I don't remember saying Anohana is the best shit, unless you're referring to it being one of my favourite shows, which means it's personally one of my favourites. I don't think its the best written show ever, but it is still very well written. #2 - Sure, go for it since you offered to, I'd actually love to hear a defense of Akame ga Kill. Please explain how it is objectively good, despite poor character development, using death only for shock value, its massively bad tonal shifts and cringe villains. |
| Most underated anime on mal: https://myanimelist.net/anime/4651/Yume_no_Crayon_Oukoku?q=Yume%20ni%20crayon |
Akerakai said: JokerVentura said: maybe when you actually explain your claims on why akame ga kill is awful#1 - I don't remember saying Anohana is the best shit, unless you're referring to it being one of my favourite shows, which means it's personally one of my favourites. I don't think its the best written show ever, but it is still very well written. #2 - Sure, go for it since you offered to, I'd actually love to hear a defense of Akame ga Kill. Please explain how it is objectively good, despite poor character development, using death only for shock value, its massively bad tonal shifts and cringe villains. I just did....perhaps you missed it. It has poor character development, uses death only for shock value, it has massively bad tonal shifts and cringe villains. You're the one who offered to defend the show as much as I want, please do so or don't state you can, if you can't. There's an ancient saying, put up or shut up. |
| “I just spent the last two years thinking that you guys knew more than me about life and I just found out that you guys are just as dumb as me.” “Duh-doy.” “Yeah, duh-doy.” |
JokerVentura said: Akerakai said: maybe when you actually explain your claims on why akame ga kill is awful I just did....perhaps you missed it. It has poor character development, uses death only for shock value, it has massively bad tonal shifts and cringe villains. You're the one who offered to defend the show as much as I want, please do so or don't state you can, if you can't. There's an ancient saying, put up or shut up. Ok i will follow your logic It has decent character developments decent villains and the use of death is justified Lmao |
| Most underated anime on mal: https://myanimelist.net/anime/4651/Yume_no_Crayon_Oukoku?q=Yume%20ni%20crayon |
Akerakai said: JokerVentura said: I just did....perhaps you missed it. It has poor character development, uses death only for shock value, it has massively bad tonal shifts and cringe villains. You're the one who offered to defend the show as much as I want, please do so or don't state you can, if you can't. There's an ancient saying, put up or shut up. Ok i will follow your logic It has decent character developments decent villains and the use of death is justified Lmao I gotta say, the other argument was more convincing :> |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Akerakai said: JokerVentura said: I just did....perhaps you missed it. It has poor character development, uses death only for shock value, it has massively bad tonal shifts and cringe villains. You're the one who offered to defend the show as much as I want, please do so or don't state you can, if you can't. There's an ancient saying, put up or shut up. Ok i will follow your logic It has decent character developments decent villains and the use of death is justified Lmao LMFAO, Is that's what you meant by you can defend Akame ga Kill as much as I want? Gonna need more detail, since again you offered to defend it as much as I want. I never offered to do the opposite, but since I'm such a benevolent fella I gave you several key points of discussion, which you could attempt to counterpoint. Feel free to do so, or not, it's up to you. |
| “I just spent the last two years thinking that you guys knew more than me about life and I just found out that you guys are just as dumb as me.” “Duh-doy.” “Yeah, duh-doy.” |
Pullman said: thx for opening my eyes Akerakai said: Ok i will follow your logic It has decent character developments decent villains and the use of death is justified Lmao I gotta say, the other argument was more convincing :> Congrats op akame ga kill is dogshit :P |
| Most underated anime on mal: https://myanimelist.net/anime/4651/Yume_no_Crayon_Oukoku?q=Yume%20ni%20crayon |
JokerVentura said: Akerakai said: Ok i will follow your logic It has decent character developments decent villains and the use of death is justified Lmao LMFAO, Is that's what you meant by you can defend Akame ga Kill as much as I want? Gonna need more detail, since again you offered to defend it as much as I want. I never offered to do the opposite, but since I'm such a benevolent fella I gave you several key points of discussion, which you could attempt to counterpoint. Feel free to do so, or not, it's up to you. I just did....perhaps you missed it It has decent character developments decent villains and the use of death is justified.There's an ancient saying, put up or shut up. |
| Most underated anime on mal: https://myanimelist.net/anime/4651/Yume_no_Crayon_Oukoku?q=Yume%20ni%20crayon |
Akerakai said: JokerVentura said: LMFAO, Is that's what you meant by you can defend Akame ga Kill as much as I want? Gonna need more detail, since again you offered to defend it as much as I want. I never offered to do the opposite, but since I'm such a benevolent fella I gave you several key points of discussion, which you could attempt to counterpoint. Feel free to do so, or not, it's up to you. I just did....perhaps you missed it It has decent character developments decent villains and the use of death is justified.There's an ancient saying, put up or shut up. Throwing my words back at me, damn what a burn......... You should chose your words more carefully, you said you would defend it as much as I want, you haven't defended it as much as I want, nowhere close. You have left me as disappointed as Akame ga Kill did, and so I take my leave.  |
| “I just spent the last two years thinking that you guys knew more than me about life and I just found out that you guys are just as dumb as me.” “Duh-doy.” “Yeah, duh-doy.” |
JokerVentura said: i just followed your logic op Akerakai said: I just did....perhaps you missed it It has decent character developments decent villains and the use of death is justified.There's an ancient saying, put up or shut up. Throwing my words back at me, damn what a burn......... You should chose your words more carefully, you said you would defend it as much as I want, you haven't defended it as much as I want, nowhere close. You have left me as disappointed as Akame ga Kill did, and so I take me leave. You are such a disapointment to yourself And when people offer to defend something they usually expect some effort to be given from the other side of the argument Ps seryu second best girl |
| Most underated anime on mal: https://myanimelist.net/anime/4651/Yume_no_Crayon_Oukoku?q=Yume%20ni%20crayon |
Akerakai said: JokerVentura said: i just followed your logic op Throwing my words back at me, damn what a burn......... You should chose your words more carefully, you said you would defend it as much as I want, you haven't defended it as much as I want, nowhere close. You have left me as disappointed as Akame ga Kill did, and so I take me leave. You are such a disapointment to yourself And when people offer to defend something they usually expect some effort to be given from the other side of the argument No, that's called a debate. If you offered to debate the show, than you get two sides of an argument. You offered to defend, which is a once sided defense of a show. You really need to think about what you write and stop blaming others for your poor choice in words. |
| “I just spent the last two years thinking that you guys knew more than me about life and I just found out that you guys are just as dumb as me.” “Duh-doy.” “Yeah, duh-doy.” |
| I'm an anime fan and I dont read shits 'cause they're too fcking long lol. Yeah light novel books are thinner,but that doesnt mean shits you know.They're called ''Light'' novel for a reason. |
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