epidemia78 said: Nothing wrong with "egoist power trips" or self insert MCs. It's fun. Do you not like fun? vicarious ego trips aren't fun. they're painful and cringe-inducing. i know where to go for fun, and this isn't it. |
Lunilah said: CherryLover said: Your post is quite hypocritical.The isekai genre by its very nature quite problematic, as the premise of these anime essentially boil down to "wish-fulfillment" for the vastly male otaku audience. This wish-fulfillment more often than not includes the MC building both a harem by collecting trophy wives and comically overpowered strength. From a feminist perspective, this is pretty blatant misogyny, as everything within the isekai machine is filtered through a male lense. It is pretty ironic the praised shows you mention in the OP are quitque honestly some of the worst offenders. Say it is "wish-fulfillment", calling men misogynistic for writing about themselves is thoughtless. Isn't that what you want women to do? If the genders were flipped your argument can be copy and pasted saying that Isekai is sexist toward men. From a classical "feminist perspective", there is absolutely nothing wrong with people writing their own stories. If you have a problem with creators writing stories for themselves, pick up a pencil and write your own story. Oh, spare me. Authors "writing their own story" does not excuse the blatantly harmful portrayal of women as mere trophies for men to gather in a large number of these so-called isekai anime. My critique not aligning with your own views is not hypocritical in the slightest. Otaku wish-fulfillment simply should not be prioritized over the correct portrayal of women in anime, and there's nothing wrong with me calling the genre out on this fact. |
Waiting patiently for springtime to return! n_n Join the Social Justice Club now! Everyone dedicated to spreading feminism on MAL is welcome to join! Link to my interview! |
Grey-Zone said: No, SAO is not an isekai. You said it yourself, Kirito does NOT "go to another world", but rather links up to a virtual simulation within his own world. Isekai literally means "another world". In other words, SAO is not an isekai. It's that easy. Saying SAO isn't an isekai because the fantasy world they get trapped in is just a virtual representation is asinine and nitpicking. Is the game world significantly different from the real world? Yes. Does the new world offer threats, either physical or psychological that are not found in the real world? Yes. Is the point of placing them in this new world to cause a dramtic shift in outlook and have the audience watch the cast struggle to adapt? Yes. So your argument is that it's not an isekai. Fine, its a virtual isekai since its virtually the same operating structure for what the setup of what makes an isekai in the first place. I have no problem with wish fulfillment and OP protagonists. Its just that I've rarely seen it implemented well in an isekai story since western portal fiction (its predecessor) has been using this structure to tell stories about characters changing for the better or for the worse. Wish fulfillment premises and OP characters are story devices that promote the antithesis of this. Thats most people's gripe. Its not isekai thats bad, its just wish fulfillment isekai stories go against the usual structure of what is considered an isekai story in the first place. Not to mention many wish fulfillment series fail to even deliver on their premise as to cock tease the audience with a harem centered around a celibate eunuch fof comedic purposes as well as not to commit to any one romantic/sexual interest, thus allowing them to market all of them shamelessly. If the MC were to actually choose one in particular, it ends the fantasy of juggling multiple girls at once, and if the MC chooses more than one it comes off as sleazy and risks turning off a portion of their audience. I enjoy GOOD wish fulfillment series. Not that isekai doesn't have the ability to make one, its just that they often play it safe as to tease at giving the audience what they want but never actually commit. Hagure Yuusha no Aesthetica did actually commit and some people gave negative reviews stating it was too ecchi and fanservice oriented which was basically the point wasn't it? Hagure Yuusha isn't a story with an engaging narrative and docking points off for that is understandable. I don't believe in the idea that ecchi shows can't have an engaging story (Sanctuary prime example) but others just docked it for not playing it safe with the fanservice and thats just more of a personal bias. Golgo 13 is a non isekai wish fulfillment for people who want to escape into the power fantasy of being an alpha male avatar of masculinity. Golgo 13 has 50 repetitive episodes. He fucks and kills and is OP as all hell. If you've seen the Queen Bee movie you don't even need to watch the series if you're looking for an engaging narrative. So why is the series so beloved in Japan? Its one of the longest running manga so there has to be one. Its because it delivers on its setup and is self aware as to what it is. Engaging entertainment but purely wish fulfillment. The narrative isn't the point. To conclude, let me just pose a few questions. How many isekai stories drop their characters into a new world unrelated to the choices of the main character unless they chose to die? How many isekai create a setup in which the end goal for the story is evident extemely early on? How many isekai clearly indicate the potential change arc for the MC? How many "wish fulfillment" isekai actually deliver on their premise of what an actual person would do if he was the OP nexus of an ever growing harem? Isekai isn't bad, it gets a bad rep for pumping shows that fail to commit on either end of the spectrum. There are shows that promise the audience a story about someone's outlook on life changing upon being transported to a new world, only to fail on delivering that in any meaninful way. Either by giving the MC a power with no negative physical/mental reprecussion for using it or by creating MC with no inherent flaws that need changing to begin with in order to make him likable making the act of being transported into a new world completely pointless. Both rob the audience of seeing that promised change that's in the DNA of isekai story structure. Other shows promise the audience a wish fullfilment scenario where the MC is paralyzed by inaction in order to not seem shameful. Which makes me wonder why even make the series to begin with if they weren't going to commit to the bit? When you combine the problems presented in these 2 scenarios, you basically get why most people are wary of the isekai genre in anime as it has a tendency to promise both and deliver on none. CherryLover said: Oh, spare me. Authors "writing their own story" does not excuse the blatantly harmful portrayal of women as mere trophies for men to gather in a large number of these so-called isekai anime. My critique not aligning with your own views is not hypocritical in the slightest. Otaku wish-fulfillment simply should not be prioritized over the correct portrayal of women in anime, and there's nothing wrong with me calling the genre out on this fact. Also, in regards to these series being misogynistic? Sex sells. The series that seem the most anti feminist are clearly targeted for a niche male audience. It was never intended to be a fair gender representation so criticizing it on that basis seems kind of like punching a wall. The producers don't want feminist dollars on a project about a young teenage boy happily collecting trophy wives. There are plenty of fujo bait reverse harem series that pander to the mirror opposite and depict men in rather suggestive ways by objectifying them. But saying that's sexist would be weird considering I know that's not the kind of series intended for me in the first place. Why bring ideals into the argument in the first place? Are you making an arguement that Japanese producers shouldn't make these kinds of shows because they're offensive? Its not illegal is it? And people buy the merchandise for these sex oriented series as well. Good luck trying to argue against capitalism. Again, fujo bait series also have a large target audience of fans too so wouldn't you just be ruining their enjoyment if all sorts of sex pandering series like the ones you described were to dissappear? There's also the aspect of free speech too. Just because you find something offensive doesn't justify its censorship. You haven't cited any sources as to why you think isekai is harmful to society so those are merely just your opinions based off of an anectdotal perspective of being a woman. That's not the representative concluson of all female anime fans. |
Somali_StrawhatSep 22, 2018 1:54 PM
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CherryLover said: You don't know my views, and yours thus far are contradicting. You seem to only want stories that confirm your position, regardless of reality or intent. An individuals fantasy male or female doesn't have to conform to your beliefs, nor does it make Isekai sexist as a whole just because you don't like it, it's clearly not meant for you. Wish fulfillment by definition is fantasy, and you stifle creativity by restricting both men and women to realism. The whole point is that they're fanciful to begin with; ergo, not based in reality.Lunilah said: Your post is quite hypocritical. Say it is "wish-fulfillment", calling men misogynistic for writing about themselves is thoughtless. Isn't that what you want women to do? If the genders were flipped your argument can be copy and pasted saying that Isekai is sexist toward men. From a classical "feminist perspective", there is absolutely nothing wrong with people writing their own stories. If you have a problem with creators writing stories for themselves, pick up a pencil and write your own story. Oh, spare me. Authors "writing their own story" does not excuse the blatantly harmful portrayal of women as mere trophies for men to gather in a large number of these so-called isekai anime. My critique not aligning with your own views is not hypocritical in the slightest. Otaku wish-fulfillment simply should not be prioritized over the correct portrayal of women in anime, and there's nothing wrong with me calling the genre out on this fact. |
 I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
| I don't hate the "overuse of common tropes", what I hate is that there are little to no sequels going on thuss the fans start watching more isekai, that will not end their story repeating the cycle. It is frustrating, that you do something unsatisfying over and over again. |
Somali_Strawhat said: CherryLover said: Oh, spare me. Authors "writing their own story" does not excuse the blatantly harmful portrayal of women as mere trophies for men to gather in a large number of these so-called isekai anime. My critique not aligning with your own views is not hypocritical in the slightest. Otaku wish-fulfillment simply should not be prioritized over the correct portrayal of women in anime, and there's nothing wrong with me calling the genre out on this fact. Also, in regards to these series being misogynistic? Sex sells. The series that seem the most anti feminist are clearly targeted for a niche male audience. It was never intended to be a fair gender representation so criticizing it on that basis seems kind of like punching a wall. The producers don't want feminist dollars on a project about a young teenage boy happily collecting trophy wives. There are plenty of fujo bait reverse harem series that pander to the mirror opposite and depict men in rather suggestive ways by objectifying them. But saying that's sexist would be weird considering I know that's not the kind of series intended for me in the first place. Why bring ideals into the argument in the first place? Are you making an arguement that Japanese producers shouldn't make these kinds of shows because they're offensive? Its not illegal is it? And people buy the merchandise for these sex oriented series as well. Good luck trying to argue against capitalism. Again, fujo bait series also have a large target audience of fans too so wouldn't you just be ruining their enjoyment if all sorts of sex pandering series like the ones you described were to dissappear? There's also the aspect of free speech too. Just because you find something offensive doesn't justify its censorship. You haven't cited any sources as to why you think isekai is harmful to society so those are merely just your opinions based off of an anectdotal perspective of being a woman. That's not the representative concluson of all female anime fans. So your argument is that because it makes money, it's all okay? Because what I say isn't going to change anything? What an utterly arrogant position you have there. You sure do love to take the moral high ground about censorship when your post here exemplifies shutting down another person just because they view things differently. Just as they have the right to promote their filth, I have the right to criticize it. The fact remains that the isekai concept and its goal of wish-fulfillment are inherently perpetuating very harmful views, and keep in mind I do think these series' do have potential. The sad fact is that it is often squandered in favor of fulfilling the male power fantasy and harem-building. And just because it is fantasy does not excuse it one bit, as it reflects the harmful views held by our patriarchal society. And fujo pandering is NOT the topic here. Quit derailing. Lunilah said: CherryLover said: You don't know my views, and yours thus far are contradicting. You seem to only want stories that confirm your position, regardless of reality or intent. An individuals fantasy male or female doesn't have to conform to your beliefs, nor does it make Isekai sexist as a whole just because you don't like it, it's clearly not meant for you. Wish fulfillment by definition is fantasy, and you stifle creativity by restricting both men and women to realism. The whole point is that they're fanciful to begin with; ergo, not based in reality.Oh, spare me. Authors "writing their own story" does not excuse the blatantly harmful portrayal of women as mere trophies for men to gather in a large number of these so-called isekai anime. My critique not aligning with your own views is not hypocritical in the slightest. Otaku wish-fulfillment simply should not be prioritized over the correct portrayal of women in anime, and there's nothing wrong with me calling the genre out on this fact. Again, just because it is not based in reality does not make it any more justifiable. These types of stories reflect the fact there is still much progress to be made in regards to equality. It has nothing to do with me "stifling creativity," I am simply pointing out that these anime are promoting values that we should have long been rid of by now. There is nothing contradictory about wanting women to be portrayed fairly and not as trophies for the ever-so-powerful men. |
Waiting patiently for springtime to return! n_n Join the Social Justice Club now! Everyone dedicated to spreading feminism on MAL is welcome to join! Link to my interview! |
CherryLover said: I wasn't implying that it not being based in reality is a cop out to write any story one wants in fantasy. On that note i was talking about how your view of wish fulfillment which is self-fantasy, in Isekai, wasn't based on what the stories actually say and that you even disregard their intent.Lunilah said: You don't know my views, and yours thus far are contradicting. You seem to only want stories that confirm your position, regardless of reality or intent. An individuals fantasy male or female doesn't have to conform to your beliefs, nor does it make Isekai sexist as a whole just because you don't like it, it's clearly not meant for you. Wish fulfillment by definition is fantasy, and you stifle creativity by restricting both men and women to realism. The whole point is that they're fanciful to begin with; ergo, not based in reality. Again, just because it is not based in reality does not make it any more justifiable. These types of stories reflect the fact there is still much progress to be made in regards to equality. It has nothing to do with me "stifling creativity," I am simply pointing out that these anime are promoting values that we should have long been rid of by now. There is nothing contradictory about wanting women to be portrayed fairly and not as trophies for the ever-so-powerful men. I haven't seen any of the anime OP listed as bad, and i've seen all but Youjo Senki in the other list. I can definitely say in the latter there are 0 women that exist for the sole purpose of being a trophy. Elizabeth in 7 deadly sins, is a trophy for a majority of the anime, in my opinion. But that still isn't a bad thing, nor do themes like these promote misogynistic 'values'. These anime don't exist to promote values, there isn't any hidden meaning in them for people to philosophize over that even come close to a sexist narrative. They exist for entertainment. Wanting the hottest men or women alive isn't inherently sexist, it's a fantasy. |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
CherryLover said: So your argument is that because it makes money, it's all okay? Because what I say isn't going to change anything? What an utterly arrogant position you have there. You sure do love to take the moral high ground about censorship when your post here exemplifies shutting down another person just because they view things differently. Just as they have the right to promote their filth, I have the right to criticize it. The fact remains that the isekai concept and its goal of wish-fulfillment are inherently perpetuating very harmful views, and keep in mind I do think these series' do have potential. The sad fact is that it is often squandered in favor of fulfilling the male power fantasy and harem-building. And just because it is fantasy does not excuse it one bit, as it reflects the harmful views held by our patriarchal society. And fujo pandering is NOT the topic here. Quit derailing. You directed the topic towards talking about how a certain genre of fiction tends to objectify women and promote anti feminist ideals. But there are other genre of anime that are doing the exact same thing towards men. To say fujo bait series are derailing the conversation is weird as its just part of the conversation towards sexual objectification across both genders. And on the note of me censoring you. I'm sure that no where in my argument did I say you had no right to feel the way you do towards anime genre that depict the sexual objectification of women. I'm just saying its an ideal in an industry funded on money. Do I believe that shows that depict hyper sexualized men and women in harem scenarios centered around either gender have the right to exist? Yes. Because those dollars are attached to people who want those things to begin with. How's it arrogant of me to point out that capitalistic demand for a product is a thing that dictates the status quo of any industry in the business of selling art regardless of medium or merit? And also don't delude yourself here. Its not like you telling the legions of MAL users on the internet is going to change anything nor was it the OPs intention to post this thread in the hopes some producer in Japan would stumble upon this forum and be moved by your argument. Thus sparking a revolution in anime towards more respectful female representation. So you're right, I don't think you're going to change anime you don't like simply off the virtue that you tell people you don't like it because you think its bad. That however is completely separate from stating you have no right to that opinion and should be censored for it. Its just that your argument comes from an admirable place of moral bias towards a product created solely for commercial purposes. I don't think its arrogant of me to point out that you're pointing out the obvious in only the direction that suits your argument while failing to neglect the countless other anime across all genre that do the same regardless of gender.When you don't mention those anime you make it seem as if its a problem isolated to isekai when I believe its just the marketing that is the foundation of any anime with fan service intentions. Your entitled to your opinion, and I apologize if I made you feel contrary to that. |
Somali_StrawhatSep 22, 2018 3:06 PM
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| Most of them have exactly the same lackluster plot and characters. The MCs are usually either total pussies or are way too OP. Only good isekais I have watched are Log Horizon Youjo Senki Ima, Soko ni Iru Boku Juuni Kokuki Konosuba Oda Nobuna no Yabou (not actually an isekai since the MC is taken to the past). And not good but a guilty pleasure would be Zero no Tsukaima and Outbreak Company. And no, Isekai Shokudou is not an isekai. |
Lunilah said: CherryLover said: I wasn't implying that it not being based in reality is a cop out to write any story one wants in fantasy. On that note i was talking about how your view of wish fulfillment which is self-fantasy, in Isekai, wasn't based on what the stories actually say and that you even disregard their intent.Again, just because it is not based in reality does not make it any more justifiable. These types of stories reflect the fact there is still much progress to be made in regards to equality. It has nothing to do with me "stifling creativity," I am simply pointing out that these anime are promoting values that we should have long been rid of by now. There is nothing contradictory about wanting women to be portrayed fairly and not as trophies for the ever-so-powerful men. I haven't seen any of the anime OP listed as bad, and i've seen all but Youjo Senki in the other list. I can definitely say in the latter there are 0 women that exist for the sole purpose of being a trophy. Elizabeth in 7 deadly sins, is a trophy for a majority of the anime, in my opinion. But that still isn't a bad thing, nor do themes like these promote misogynistic 'values'. These anime don't exist to promote values, there isn't any hidden meaning in them for people to philosophize over that even come close to a sexist narrative. They exist for entertainment. Wanting the hottest men or women alive isn't inherently sexist, it's a fantasy. Really now? Let's put that claim to the test then. Of the ones I have seen, KonoSuba is one of the most blatantly sexist shows I have ever seen. The show passes off the casual insulting and degrading of women as comedy. In fact, Kazuma himself makes light of the feminist movement by saying he supports "gender equality" when he clearly has no idea what he's talking about. Another example Re:Zero is simply put a textbook harem. Subaru can't even begin to sort out his feelings towards the female cast, who fall for him in such a pitifully easy fashion that it's laughable. The show attempts to sweep this under the rug by attempting to be deep, but it fails in every way. These two alone have displayed that isekai are nothing more but an otaku-pandering trick. And once again, I'll reiterate: being fantasy does not justify the clearly misogynistic themes. And I have the right to call it out for that. |
Waiting patiently for springtime to return! n_n Join the Social Justice Club now! Everyone dedicated to spreading feminism on MAL is welcome to join! Link to my interview! |
CherryLover said: I really hope you aren't implying that the female cast of KonoSuba & Re:Zero exist solely for the purpose of the male main characters desires. They all have their own wants, desires, story arcs, unique personality, and are vital to the plot in their own right. Lunilah said: I wasn't implying that it not being based in reality is a cop out to write any story one wants in fantasy. On that note i was talking about how your view of wish fulfillment which is self-fantasy, in Isekai, wasn't based on what the stories actually say and that you even disregard their intent. I haven't seen any of the anime OP listed as bad, and i've seen all but Youjo Senki in the other list. I can definitely say in the latter there are 0 women that exist for the sole purpose of being a trophy. Elizabeth in 7 deadly sins, is a trophy for a majority of the anime, in my opinion. But that still isn't a bad thing, nor do themes like these promote misogynistic 'values'. These anime don't exist to promote values, there isn't any hidden meaning in them for people to philosophize over that even come close to a sexist narrative. They exist for entertainment. Wanting the hottest men or women alive isn't inherently sexist, it's a fantasy. Really now? Let's put that claim to the test then. Of the ones I have seen, KonoSuba is one of the most blatantly sexist shows I have ever seen. The show passes off the casual insulting and degrading of women as comedy. In fact, Kazuma himself makes light of the feminist movement by saying he supports "gender equality" when he clearly has no idea what he's talking about. Another example Re:Zero is simply put a textbook harem. Subaru can't even begin to sort out his feelings towards the female cast, who fall for him in such a pitifully easy fashion that it's laughable. The show attempts to sweep this under the rug by attempting to be deep, but it fails in every way. These two alone have displayed that isekai are nothing more but an otaku-pandering trick. And once again, I'll reiterate: being fantasy does not justify the clearly misogynistic themes. And I have the right to call it out for that. What Kazuma said was a throw-away line that has absolutely no bearing on him as a character or his political affiliation, which certainly is no crusade against women. You're just nit-picking. Even with Subaru, how is a girl falling for him 'easily' sexist in any way? She doesn't exist for him, and this is a self-fantasy story as you yourself put it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. Furthermore, if you can give Fate/stay night and Sword Art Online perfect 10/10 scores while saying that about KonoSuba & Re:Zero, it just further proves my point that you're being hypocritical. PS: You reiterated fantasy not being justification for something when i explicitly stated that already in the post you quoted. |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
Somali_Strawhat said: You directed the topic towards talking about how a certain genre of fiction tends to objectify women and promote anti feminist ideals. But there are other genre of anime that are doing the exact same thing towards men. To say fujo bait series are derailing the conversation is weird as its just part of the conversation towards sexual objectification across both genders. I never stated that it was limited to only isekai. The topic of this thread however pertains to why people hate isekai, so I of course explained problematic elements within the scope of the isekai genre. There are undoubtedly objectification issues across genres, including fujo material. But the scales are vastly different, and again, that is not the subject of this particular thread. And on the note of me censoring you. I'm sure that no where in my argument did I say you had no right to feel the way you do towards anime genre that depict the sexual objectification of women. I'm just saying its an ideal in an industry funded on money. Do I believe that shows that depict hyper sexualized men and women in harem scenarios centered around either gender have the right to exist? Yes. Because those dollars are attached to people who want those things to begin with. How's it arrogant of me to point out that capitalistic demand for a product is a thing that dictates the status quo of any industry in the business of selling art regardless of medium or merit? And also don't delude yourself here. Its not like you telling the legions of MAL users on the internet is going to change anything nor was it the OPs intention to post this thread in the hopes some producer in Japan would stumble upon this forum and be moved by your argument. Thus sparking a revolution in anime towards more respectful female representation. So you're right, I don't think you're going to change anime you don't like simply off the virtue that you tell people you don't like it because you think its bad. That however is completely separate from stating you have no right to that opinion and should be censored for it. Its just that your argument comes from an admirable place of moral bias towards a product created solely for commercial purposes. And never once did I say I expected to make these sweeping changes. I know all too well that the anime industry is not going to change the practices that make it the most money because one feminist vents her grievances here on a forum. I don't need you to tell me that, and that is why I find it arrogant. And just because I have no means of changing it does not mean it is entirely fruitless. In my view, these problematic tropes within fiction (including anime, of course) are simply symptoms of a patriarchal society, so my goal is to engage with people on here from a progressive point of view. I don't see any issue in here. The impression you give is that of someone overly hostile towards any feminist viewpoint, so that is why I lashed back. I don't think its arrogant of me to point out that you're pointing out the obvious in only the direction that suits your argument while failing to neglect the countless other anime across all genre that do the same regardless of gender.When you don't mention those anime you make it seem as if its a problem isolated to isekai when I believe its just the marketing that is the foundation of any anime with fan service intentions. Your entitled to your opinion, and I apologize if I made you feel contrary to that. Again, I apologize for the misunderstanding, but I specifically was discussing isekai, as it was a talking point of this thread. I do see issues in other genres as well, but it is not relevant to the discussion at hand. I have criticized moe and ecchi at length as well in the past, for example. |
Waiting patiently for springtime to return! n_n Join the Social Justice Club now! Everyone dedicated to spreading feminism on MAL is welcome to join! Link to my interview! |
| What are you talking about? Isekai is the best The fact that people rate them a 1 shows that they think it's number 1, the best |
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CherryLover said: While i agree they are definitely issues within the genre, along with anime in general on both sides, not because i think it's sexist which i know it's not. Far from it. It's just a weak story element that doesn't hold much weight, i don't care much for creators or consumers sexual fantasy that keeps funding it, i just want great story telling, and that isn't it.The topic of this thread however pertains to why people hate isekai, so I of course explained problematic elements within the scope of the isekai genre. There are undoubtedly objectification issues across genres, including fujo material. But the scales are vastly different, and again, that is not the subject of this particular thread. Edit: Not trying to group up on you, i know it wasn't our convo but i wanted to make sure my point was clear that i'm not defending harem fantasy, just that your view on it is completely wrong. |
LunilahSep 22, 2018 3:36 PM
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
| [quote=CherryLover] I never stated that it was limited to only isekai. The topic of this thread however pertains to why people hate isekai, so I of course explained problematic elements within the scope of the isekai genre. There are undoubtedly objectification issues across genres, including fujo material. But the scales are vastly different, and again, that is not the subject of this particular thread. And never once did I say I expected to make these sweeping changes. I know all too well that the anime industry is not going to change the practices that make it the most money because one feminist vents her grievances here on a forum. I don't need you to tell me that, and that is why I find it arrogant. And just because I have no means of changing it does not mean it is entirely fruitless. In my view, these problematic tropes within fiction (including anime, of course) are simply symptoms of a patriarchal society, so my goal is to engage with people on here from a progressive point of view. I don't see any issue in here. The impression you give is that of someone overly hostile towards any feminist viewpoint, so that is why I lashed back. [/quote I'm not anti feminism, I just don't look for political meaning in stories not centered around political themes. Nor do I believe that that's the reason many people tend to shit on isekai. In fact I'd go as far as to say that most isekai end up getting created by the fact they have fanservice merchandising potential. And if people hated that aspect of isekai thats fine. The OP also asked why do people hate isekai more than other genre. You stated its mostly the fan service and I just disagree. The reason I brought up other genre as well is to state that those elements are included in other genre and yet nobody seems to rail on them as hard as they do isekai. I believe that audiences are willing to accept overt sexualization of its cast if the isekai story offers a noticable logical change in the protagonist from who he was before he was teleported into a new world and after. Otherwise No Game No Lofe wouldn't be as popular as it is. If a series fails on conveying that aspect in isekai stories to the audience through not necessarily likable or sympathetic characters, but empathetic ones who's thought process are understood by the audience easily, it makes no difference as to whether or not you agree with main character's actions. Lelouch is one the most popular character on MAL. He decieves others, murders, treats men and women like pawns, and is sadistic and cruel. Likability is besides the point though, because ironically most people like Lelouch not because they agree with his thought process. They like him because the story provides multiple opportunities through his interactions and conflicts with other characters so that they can understand his thought process. In fact I'd say likability is what kills most isekai featuring protagonists I can identify with. Because they inevitably do so only to garner sympathy and play it safe. This is a good way for rooting for characters to reach their goals, but that only works if the hero has to struggle to change for that goal and that change is believable and understood by the audience. Its the reason I'm not big on Overlord. Normal dude becomes God and then magic removes his humanity through no fault of his own. His decision to stay in the game server has no logical basis to inmply that could happeb so it wasn't his own decision. And since he's all powerful his conflicts don't inform anything about his character other than that he's normal. Not to mention he always has a perfect excuse for how its not his when he's about to act like what the series thought the show was about. Being an Overlord. |
Somali_StrawhatSep 22, 2018 4:08 PM
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Lunilah said: I really hope you aren't implying that the female cast of KonoSuba & Re:Zero exist solely for the purpose of the male main characters desires. They all have their own wants, desires, story arcs, unique personality, and are vital to the plot in their own right. Surely you can't be this dense. In what way do any of the girls in KonoSuba have a unique personality? One's a masochist, one's a chuuni loli, and the other one's an air-headed "goddess" They certainly play their roles when needed, but ultimately they are portrayed as rather useless without the might Kazuma-sama's guidance. Add to the fact they are harassed and teased on a frequent basis, and maybe you'll start to see the picture. You can perhaps make a case for Re:Zero, but to me, both Rem and Emilia are textbook trophy waifus and all of their characters traits are essentially superficial. What Kazuma said was a throw-away line that has absolutely no bearing on him as a character or his political affiliation, which certainly is no crusade against women. You're just nit-picking. Even with Subaru, how is a girl falling for him 'easily' sexist in any way? She doesn't exist for him, and this is a self-fantasy story as you yourself put it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. Nit-picking? So you're just going to sweep all of the cases of Kazuma's harassment (which includes stealing panties) under the rug? That's blatant sexism at its finest. And in Subaru's case, the fact Rem can fall for him in such a short time is laughable at best. As a maid, she is the prototypical case of otaku bait, willing to devote her entire life to Subaru-sama. And the irony is that Subaru can't even sort his own feelings about both her and Emilia, which shows it is clearly going down the harem route. Good for Subaru, winning over all the waifus in this new world! Furthermore, if you can give Fate/stay night and Sword Art Online perfect 10/10 scores while saying that about KonoSuba & Re:Zero, it just further proves my point that you're being hypocritical. And the fact you need bring up my favorites to prove your point is laughable at best. Quit shifting the goalposts. PS: You reiterated fantasy not being justification for something when i explicitly stated that already in the post you quoted. So you can't come up with a justification then. Not that I was expecting one, of course. |
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Somali_Strawhat said: I'm not anti feminism, I just don't look for political meaning in stories not centered around political themes. I think the themes are inherent, but we can agree to disagree here. The OP also asked why do people hate isekai more than other genre. You stated its mostly the fan service and I just disagree. The reason I brought up other genre as well is to state that those elements are included in other genre and yet nobody seems to rail on them as hard as they do isekai. The thing is, I am not isolating the fan-service here. Of course, it is a problem and it shows up across all genres. My specific issue with isekai is that it is essentially an otaku bait concept that fulfills all the male fantasies which include obtaining power to fight off some monsters and obtain a harem along the way. Some are more sexualized than others, but this concept alone is what makes me find the genre repugnant. I believe that audiences are willing to accept overt sexualization of its cast if the idekai story offers a noticable logical change in the protagonist from who he was before he was teleported into a new world and after. Otherwise No Game No Lofe wouldn't be as popular as it is. This is something that say KonoSuba for example does not offer. As far as I can tell, Kazuma is the same old despicable pervert throughout. If a series fails on conveying that aspect in isekai stories to the audience through not necessarily likable or sympathetic characters, but empathetic ones who's thought process are understood by the audience easily, it makes no difference as to whether or not you agree with main character's actions. Lelouch is one the most popular character on MAL. He decieves others, murders, treats women like pawns, and is sadistic and cruel. Lilability is besides the point though, because ironically most people like not because they agree with his thought process. They like him because the story provides multiple opportunities through his interactions and conflicts with other characters so that they can understand his thought process. In fact I'd say lilability is what kills most isekai featuring protagonists I can identify with. Because they inevitably do so only to garner sympathy and play it safe. This is a good way for rooting for characters to reach their goals, but that only works if the hero has to struggle to change for that goal and that change is believable and understood by the audience. Its the reason I'm not big on Overlord. That's fair. I personally didn't care for Lelouch myself, but I can see how people can find him to be a more interesting lead than others. |
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CherryLover said: Once you see something you don't like you go completely blind and can't see anything else but that, don't you? Not only do you not understand what wish fulfillment is (sexual fantasy =/= sexism), you already said the ground work for their personality, and fail to see anything else beyond that especially considering Kazuma literally can't do anything by himself. That you're completely blind to see anything without your bias glasses on.Lunilah said: I really hope you aren't implying that the female cast of KonoSuba & Re:Zero exist solely for the purpose of the male main characters desires. They all have their own wants, desires, story arcs, unique personality, and are vital to the plot in their own right. Surely you can't be this dense. In what way do any of the girls in KonoSuba have a unique personality? One's a masochist, one's a chuuni loli, and the other one's an air-headed "goddess" They certainly play their roles when needed, but ultimately they are portrayed as rather useless without the might Kazuma-sama's guidance. Add to the fact they are harassed and teased on a frequent basis, and maybe you'll start to see the picture. You can perhaps make a case for Re:Zero, but to me, both Rem and Emilia are textbook trophy waifus and all of their characters traits are essentially superficial. CherryLover said: Stealing panties which was and still is completely out of his control, otherwise; see above. As for Subaru and Rem, you're not describing sexism you're just describing someones fantasy of having people fall in love with them, not a hard concept.Lunilah said: What Kazuma said was a throw-away line that has absolutely no bearing on him as a character or his political affiliation, which certainly is no crusade against women. You're just nit-picking. Even with Subaru, how is a girl falling for him 'easily' sexist in any way? She doesn't exist for him, and this is a self-fantasy story as you yourself put it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. Nit-picking? So you're just going to sweep all of the cases of Kazuma's harassment (which includes stealing panties) under the rug? That's blatant sexism at its finest. And in Subaru's case, the fact Rem can fall for him in such a short time is laughable at best. As a maid, she is the prototypical case of otaku bait, willing to devote her entire life to Subaru-sama. And the irony is that Subaru can't even sort his own feelings about both her and Emilia, which shows it is clearly going down the harem route. Good for Subaru, winning over all the waifus in this new world! CherryLover said: I am baffled you think Emiya in the original Fate/stay night doesn't undermine Saber every chance he gets simply because shes a woman and treats her like a damsel in distress (which was thankfully fixed in the other timelines), or how every girl Kirito talks to for more than 60 seconds falls in love with him is in any way shifting the goal post. That is COMPLETELY on point. It's fine for you in one anime to give an immaculate score, but not in another for the same thing.Lunilah said: Furthermore, if you can give Fate/stay night and Sword Art Online perfect 10/10 scores while saying that about KonoSuba & Re:Zero, it just further proves my point that you're being hypocritical. And the fact you need bring up my favorites to prove your point is laughable at best. Quit shifting the goalposts. CherryLover said: You're reading what i'm typing but you aren't understanding it. There is no justification needed for something that doesn't exist.Lunilah said: PS: You reiterated fantasy not being justification for something when i explicitly stated that already in the post you quoted. So you can't come up with a justification then. Not that I was expecting one, of course. |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
CherryLover said: Somali_Strawhat said: I'm not anti feminism, I just don't look for political meaning in stories not centered around political themes. I think the themes are inherent, but we can agree to disagree here. The OP also asked why do people hate isekai more than other genre. You stated its mostly the fan service and I just disagree. The reason I brought up other genre as well is to state that those elements are included in other genre and yet nobody seems to rail on them as hard as they do isekai. The thing is, I am not isolating the fan-service here. Of course, it is a problem and it shows up across all genres. My specific issue with isekai is that it is essentially an otaku bait concept that fulfills all the male fantasies which include obtaining power to fight off some monsters and obtain a harem along the way. Some are more sexualized than others, but this concept alone is what makes me find the genre repugnant. I believe that audiences are willing to accept overt sexualization of its cast if the idekai story offers a noticable logical change in the protagonist from who he was before he was teleported into a new world and after. Otherwise No Game No Lofe wouldn't be as popular as it is. This is something that say KonoSuba for example does not offer. As far as I can tell, Kazuma is the same old despicable pervert throughout. If a series fails on conveying that aspect in isekai stories to the audience through not necessarily likable or sympathetic characters, but empathetic ones who's thought process are understood by the audience easily, it makes no difference as to whether or not you agree with main character's actions. Lelouch is one the most popular character on MAL. He decieves others, murders, treats women like pawns, and is sadistic and cruel. Lilability is besides the point though, because ironically most people like not because they agree with his thought process. They like him because the story provides multiple opportunities through his interactions and conflicts with other characters so that they can understand his thought process. In fact I'd say lilability is what kills most isekai featuring protagonists I can identify with. Because they inevitably do so only to garner sympathy and play it safe. This is a good way for rooting for characters to reach their goals, but that only works if the hero has to struggle to change for that goal and that change is believable and understood by the audience. Its the reason I'm not big on Overlord. That's fair. I personally didn't care for Lelouch myself, but I can see how people can find him to be a more interesting lead than others. How is Kazuma the same person from who he was before he came to the fantasy world? Before the 2nd episode he changed from having no job, self respect, and was a lazy anti social shut in. By the end of episode 1 he's forced to work with others, sleep in a manner he's unaccustomed to, for less than minimum wage. He's a pervert but its not like the series ever rewards him for being one and many women either punish/stigmatize him as a result. In fact his expectations of women usially backfire to embarassing effect on his part and highlight how unattractive he is to most women. Did you remember the trial where Kazuma was ridiculed in front of everyone in town? Failing to provide even one friend outside his party members to act a character reference, and sank into further humiliation as every one of his flaws was put under a microscope for everyone to see? And Kazuma's party constantly treat him as useless as he treats them. Its a reciprocal act of being an asshole (besides Darkness who is just a masochist) Need I remind you Aqua was the one who was the main contributor to the climax fight in season 2 and how everyone played their roles as well in order to work together. The appeal of Konosuba is how it sets up the premise of being a Dragon Quest style isekai world by giving the MC a standard isekai goal. Defeat the demon king. The joke being is how every time Kazuma actively tries to treat this world like a videogame he's played in the real world he's punished for it. And every time he just forgets about the demon lord and focuses on solving his problems of having way more adult day to day responsibilities than he had in the real world, a demon lord general shows up out of nowhere to remind him why he's there in the first place and give him even more problems. Its a hillarious tug of war between the fantasy of being trapped in a rpg as the hero and the reality of being the only one who knows it and receiving no special treatment for it. Is the comedy raunchy? Yes. But I don't think zex comedy is always sexist. And to say Kazuma hasn't changed nor is he a better person as a result of coming to the new world seems like nitpicking. He's still an asshole. He's just a more responsible asshole. See? Change. One of the shows popular elements is that you can track the causality between even the smallest events episode to episode which makes the change that much more obvious to the viewer. Kazuma isn't likable but you can understand why he hates (but not really) his party and the new world he's in (but not really. I dunno, most people I talked to enjoyed the raunchy comedic aspects the most so what do I know. |
Somali_StrawhatSep 22, 2018 4:36 PM
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Lunilah said: CherryLover said: Once you see something you don't like you go completely blind and can't see anything else but that, don't you? Not only do you not understand what wish fulfillment is (sexual fantasy =/= sexism), you already said the ground work for their personality, and fail to see anything else beyond that especially considering Kazuma literally can't do anything by himself. That you're completely blind to see anything without your bias glasses on.Surely you can't be this dense. In what way do any of the girls in KonoSuba have a unique personality? One's a masochist, one's a chuuni loli, and the other one's an air-headed "goddess" They certainly play their roles when needed, but ultimately they are portrayed as rather useless without the might Kazuma-sama's guidance. Add to the fact they are harassed and teased on a frequent basis, and maybe you'll start to see the picture. You can perhaps make a case for Re:Zero, but to me, both Rem and Emilia are textbook trophy waifus and all of their characters traits are essentially superficial. CherryLover said: Stealing panties which was and still is completely out of his control, otherwise; see above. As for Subaru and Rem, you're not describing sexism you're just describing someones fantasy of having people fall in love with them, not a hard concept.Nit-picking? So you're just going to sweep all of the cases of Kazuma's harassment (which includes stealing panties) under the rug? That's blatant sexism at its finest. And in Subaru's case, the fact Rem can fall for him in such a short time is laughable at best. As a maid, she is the prototypical case of otaku bait, willing to devote her entire life to Subaru-sama. And the irony is that Subaru can't even sort his own feelings about both her and Emilia, which shows it is clearly going down the harem route. Good for Subaru, winning over all the waifus in this new world! CherryLover said: I am baffled you think Emiya in the original Fate/stay night doesn't undermine Saber every chance he gets simply because shes a woman and treats her like a damsel in distress (which was thankfully fixed in the other timelines), or how every girl Kirito talks to for more than 60 seconds falls in love with him is in any way shifting the goal post. That is COMPLETELY on point. It's fine for you in one anime to give an immaculate score, but not in another for the same thing.And the fact you need bring up my favorites to prove your point is laughable at best. Quit shifting the goalposts. CherryLover said: You're reading what i'm typing but you aren't understanding it. There is no justification needed for something that doesn't exist.So you can't come up with a justification then. Not that I was expecting one, of course. Wish fulfillment IS sexism. Call it whatever you like, but the fact remains that these female characters are designed to be cliched and overly sexualized simply to pander to the majority-male audience. And not only that, these poor excuses for characters help to perpetuate the misportrayal and objectification of women across all genres. Isekai is just another facet of this problem. And even if it was unintentional, the fact Kazuma never even apologized to the women he stole panties from is proof that the female characters of KonoSuba are trophy-wives to be used and abused by him at any time. Kazuma never faces any lasting consequences for these actions, and even if he does, it is not nearly adequate enough to justify it. As for Re:Zero, fair enough. I find it to be an incredibly superficial show, but perhaps I am being a little too harsh and seeing things that are not there. Yes, the dynamic between Shirou and Saber in the Fate route is something I, as a Fate-fan, found to be incredibly cringe-worthy. For that particular route, I was only invested for the world-building essentially, as most of the characters I adore didn't get their proper focus til later routes. Kirito is much more admirable than the likes of Subaru or Kazuma, mind you, so it's much more understandable. But again, bringing my favorites into play is irrelevant when we are discussing isekai. I indulged you, but it is still essentially derailment. |
CherryLoverSep 22, 2018 4:39 PM
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CherryLover said: 1:Lunilah said: Once you see something you don't like you go completely blind and can't see anything else but that, don't you? Not only do you not understand what wish fulfillment is (sexual fantasy =/= sexism), you already said the ground work for their personality, and fail to see anything else beyond that especially considering Kazuma literally can't do anything by himself. That you're completely blind to see anything without your bias glasses on. Stealing panties which was and still is completely out of his control, otherwise; see above. As for Subaru and Rem, you're not describing sexism you're just describing someones fantasy of having people fall in love with them, not a hard concept. I am baffled you think Emiya in the original Fate/stay night doesn't undermine Saber every chance he gets simply because shes a woman and treats her like a damsel in distress (which was thankfully fixed in the other timelines), or how every girl Kirito talks to for more than 60 seconds falls in love with him is in any way shifting the goal post. That is COMPLETELY on point. It's fine for you in one anime to give an immaculate score, but not in another for the same thing. You're reading what i'm typing but you aren't understanding it. There is no justification needed for something that doesn't exist. Wish fulfillment IS sexism. Call it whatever you like, but the fact remains that these female characters are designed to be cliched and overly sexualized simply to pander to the majority-male audience. And not only that, these poor excuses for characters help to perpetuate the misportrayal and objectification of women across all genres. Isekai is just another facet of this problem. And even if it was unintentional, the fact Kazuma never even apologized to the women he stole panties from is proof that the female characters of KonoSuba are trophy-wives to be used and abused by him at any time. Kazuma never faces any consequences for these actions, and even if he does, it is not nearly adequate enough to justify it. As for Re:Zero, fair enough. I find it to be an incredibly superficial show, but perhaps I am being a little too harsh and seeing things that are not there. Yes, the dynamic between Shirou and Saber in the Fate route is something I, as a Fate-fan to be incredibly cringe-worthy. For that particular route, I was only invested for the world-building essentially, as most of the characters I adore didn't get their proper focus til later routes. Kirito is much more admirable than the likes of Subaru or Kazuma, mind you, so it's much more understandable. But again, bringing my favorites into play is irrelevant when we are discussing isekai. I indulged you, but it is still essentially derailment. Wish fulfillment is a desire of ones dreams or fantasies; absolutely nothing sexist in that. For you to say, or even imply that a sexual fantasy of an easily obtained dream lover of the desired sex is somehow sexist, is bigoted in and of itself. 2: What Somali said about Kazuma is more than i could say about him. And yes, the steal skill is random. 3: I don't like either of these anime, but they're certainly not discriminatory. 4: Agreed on Fate, i think that Anime that has a lot of content outside of the show itself for you to keep digging into on top of all it's world building is incredibly fun and in short supply. Kirito is a Marty Stu, and is just another form of wish fulfillment, and is certainly not sexist. Edit: Forgot to re-read 4 and put in: We're not just talking about Isekai, we're talking about problems within it that also transcend Isekai. |
LunilahSep 22, 2018 4:59 PM
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
CherryLover said: The isekai genre by its very nature quite problematic, as the premise of these anime essentially boil down to "wish-fulfillment" for the vastly male otaku audience. This wish-fulfillment more often than not includes the MC building both a harem by collecting trophy wives and comically overpowered strength. From a feminist perspective, this is pretty blatant misogyny, as everything within the isekai machine is filtered through a male lense. It is pretty ironic the praised shows you mention in the OP are quitque honestly some of the worst offenders. Ehhh, that's mostly a huge generalization. Might be true about trash like SAO or Re:Zero, but isekai has existed for long before these and is a quite diverse genre. Wish-fulfillment really isn't anything inherently bad so I don't know why you're implying so. I would say in art, fantasy at that, one should be free to portray the world in whatever way they wish, because where else can one do that? And while it's understandable you might dislike these, I don't think it's fair to call them 'problematic' when the ideas and fantasies are contained in a fictional world that exists solely for audience's enjoyment, even if some could be considered misogynistic or whatever in the real world. I would argue harems (or rather polygamy in general) themselves don't even have to be misogynistic if the characters involved are well made, but it's hard to with majority consisting of nothing but shitty archetypes and formulaic progression of all the relationships ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. Anyway though, isekai really isn't limited to this recent wave of "an overpowered non-character male MC and his band of cute girls" like SAO and Death March. There is stuff like Seisenshi Dunbine (male modest MC, mechas and fairies in a nordic-inspired world) or Juuni Kokuki (female MC in a vast well developed world, good portrayal of war and poverty, raising to leadership) , that rather focus on world building and use the possibilities of a whole new world to enhance this otherworldy experience rather than 'leveling up' the MC. Or shows like Escaflowne and Magic Knight Rayearth, which are closer to typical shoujo and female fantasy (though not as extreme). It's quite ignorant to say isekai is just male fantasy harem shows. I would advise to check any of these. Especially Juuni Kokuki because it's an excellent show and nothing like you described in any aspect. |
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| You listed one of the worst iskekais aside from a few |
 -Just roki roll!!!https://myanimelist.net/profile/Wimp3452 If you click on that you will die |
| @Somali_Strawhat No, SAO isn't isekai, period. But whatever, if I had to explain I would have to derail this thread with unnecessary mentions of several VRMMO novels which is not worth it. Let's just agree to disagree then. As for your questions, you are using some flawed premises here, which I will sort out now, while simply answering those which I have no issues with: Somali_Strawhat said: How many isekai stories drop their characters into a new world unrelated to the choices of the main character unless they chose to die? Most of them, which includes all three isekai "stereotypes" of transported, summoned and reincarnated, escpacially if you include media other than anime, like LNs or even WNs. Somali_Strawhat said: How many isekai create a setup in which the end goal for the story is evident extemely early on? Several do so, but I don't view this as a necessity in the first place. It's almost completely irrelevant to slice-of-life isekai and even the most story-driven adventure isekai don't seem to dwell on that too much, keeping it simple, e.g. "returning to one's own world", "surviving in the new world and understanding the circumstances first" or "defeating the demon king first and decide what comes after later" and such. Somali_Strawhat said: How many isekai clearly indicate the potential change arc for the MC? Not too many, but it's not necessary. You can have stories which involve character development, but you can also have OP "complete" characters whose past and/or personality you slowly experience, or a combination of OP character whose past and personality you slowly get to know, while also still going through slow but steady character development and perhaps even focus on side characters more, like is the case in Overlord, specifically, you see more about change in the former NPCs of Nazarick and other characters than about Ainz himself, for example. Somali_Strawhat said: How many "wish fulfillment" isekai actually deliver on their premise of what an actual person would do if he was the OP nexus of an ever growing harem? That isn't a thing. Wish-fulfillment is an overrated variable, and contradicts the known facts. Mis-characterisation of what the target-audience wants based on such oversimplification is truly annoying for any genre and it's the same for isekai. The two actual relevant aspects for isekai are the following 1. world building/exploration 2. cumulative fun These two are the actual reasons people look at isekai, escpacially the most popular ones. I base this not on my imagination, but rather on hard numbers. Light Novel sales numbers to be exact. All the top isekai in terms of sales have at least 4-6 times the first week sales compared to the "average" one. All the top ones have plenty of world building and I know most of them. It's therefore only logical to conclude that people like isekai LNs where you can get a feel for the world the protagonist(s) was/were transported to, or perhaps even feel immersed in it. A good example for this would be Death March. At first it seems like the "sterotypical" wish-fulfillment. But it's not. Infact it's the opposite. It's almost as if the LN's author deliberately tries to drive that part of the audience away, by making the protagonist, despite him being OP, not do anything, other than in emergencies cases, and having the protagonist outright declare that he isn't interested in any of the girls in his "harem" because they are too young and he goes to a brothel instead, to relieve his sexual needs. In actuality, the series is all about cooking, world-building, common-sense breaking jokes and slice-of-life. Actions scenes? They exist but they feel more like a part of world building than actual fights, essentially giving the reader insight into what the various bad guys of the world are like. With such a "boring" setting Death March actually manages to be the 4th-most successful isekai in terms of LN first week sales per volume, so it must do SOMETHING right, right? Though the slow-pacing didn't translate too well into anime, escpacially not with only a single cour, but that's a whole different can of worms which I'll set aside now. The other aspect, which I refer to as "cumulative fun" is probably what's, of all the factors, being misunderstood as being "wish-fulfillment" the most. It's an important aspect due to the circumstances of most of isekai in general: What most people don't know is that at least 90% of all the isekai with anime adaptations in the last few years have their origins in being Web Novels which only later were adaptated and edited into Light Novels. The important part is that they were published directly without having to pass through an editor first. In other words, stories which start off weak (i.e. would never pass an editor) but get better later on, as well as stories that according to the editors' misjudgement of the audience might have been successful but in the end didn't get published (or were perhaps rejected by a LN publisher once already) gain an opportunity to be successful with audience of the Web Novel site. Many amateur writers did just that and ambitious LN editors decided to fish the most popular ones out and give them a polished LN adaptations each. Since it worked well and they didn't all turn into flops, this fishing expedition expanded and LN publishers started to become more receptive toward this method of audience testing of potential future LN releases, which truly caused the beginning of the "isekai" boom (since there just happened to be an isekai trend on the Web Novel site at the time), with the more successful LNs gaining their manga adaptations and later on the best among these even received anime adaptations. This is why I say "cumulative fun" is an important aspect. Many of these stories were written by amateur writers and shitty stories that are too boring and repetetive would never get well received by the readers. Pure wish-fulfillment stories with nothing else to it would be left behind by those who have more than just wish-fulfillment to them and there were many stories which didn't even have any wish-fulfillment in the first place. Anyway, the "cumulative fun" is a term I use to explain why someone likes a story but cannot explain with textbook literature methods why they like it. Some stories don't have anything particular outstanding to them but the specific composition of them "somehow" perfectly fits and make the story look very appealing. An example where I experienced that would be Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken (TenSura), which gets its anime release in the upcoming season. In the case of this series, the individual components are already quite good, be it the world building, the kingdom building, the comedy, the battles, the protagonist and the side-characters - all of it is already solid on its own, but strictly speaking for each individual aspects, I know other stories which do it better, so overall it shouldn't seem that special. Yet somehow, in an unexplainable way, the individual aspects of TenSura somehow create a perfect synergy with each other which makes the series so much more fun than one would expect from merely the sum of all parts. This kind of "synergy" would possibly fly over the editor's head who'd be evaluating the story in a technical way, if it was released directly as a LN instead of as a WN first, this is why such a phenomenom is fairly unique to isekai. This was just some background knowledge about isekai, but it explains why the chance that an isekai anime adaptation is nothing but mindless wish-fulfillment is rather low. Actually, I'd recommend to stop using that word altogether. "Wish-fulfillment" is a buzzword that's mostly to denigrate a whole group of people in an overgeneralized way. It entices people to keep using such a simplistic thinking. And by the way, where does an isekai show ever "promise" to be "about someone's outlook on life changing upon being transported to a new world"? I know quite a few isekai series, but among those, I know only a single one where something like that is "promised" near the beginning of an isekai LN without anime adaptation, called "Mushoku Tensei", but that series did properly deliver on that promise, so I don't know what it could be. Was it perhaps the synopsis? Well then I can only tell you to be careful in the future, because I noticed that on MAL and maybe some other sites, the synopsis of an isekai series is often completely wrong. For example when Death March aired, its synopsis was COMPLETELY wrong and contradicted both source material and even the anime. I don't think even a single thing about the synopsis other than the name of the protagonist was correct. So yea, I guess it was probably that. tl;dr: Most criticism against isekai is built upon flawed and overgeneralized assumptions, because the critics mis-identify the motives and preferences of the majority of the isekai audience. @CherryLover Remember ever reading something like this? "This is a work of fiction, any resemblences with real people or events are coincidental. This work does not reflect the author's personal views." I always thought such disclaimers were redundant, but it seems they might be somewhat relevant after all... |
Grey-ZoneSep 22, 2018 6:54 PM
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Lunilah said: 1: Wish fulfillment is a desire of ones dreams or fantasies; absolutely nothing sexist in that. For you to say, or even imply that a sexual fantasy of an easily obtained dream lover of the desired sex is somehow sexist, is bigoted in and of itself. 2: What Somali said about Kazuma is more than i could say about him. And yes, the steal skill is random. 3: I don't like either of these anime, but they're certainly not discriminatory. 4: Agreed on Fate, i think that Anime that has a lot of content outside of the show itself for you to keep digging into on top of all it's world building is incredibly fun and in short supply. Kirito is a Marty Stu, and is just another form of wish fulfillment, and is certainly not sexist. Edit: Forgot to re-read 4 and put in: We're not just talking about Isekai, we're talking about problems within it that also transcend Isekai. Definitely agree with point 1. Fantasizing sexual situations isn't sexist in the slightest bit. And wish fulfillment series is just an aspect of pandering to that. That said, I always wondered why there are rarely any wish fulfillment isekai series out there that committed to all the fan service elements they created. In the manga Kingdom, the royalty often have legions of concubines. Yes it's historical fiction but logically speaking most of these high fantasy isekai settings are just rpg versions of Camelot. I bet shows like in another world with my smartphone would be way more interesting if you added the MC from School Days into it. At least then there'd be some conflict. And you mention in part 4 how the problems that isekai have are prevalent in other anime as well. Which is true. But I think the reason why isekai gets so much more shit for it is due to it betraying all the isekai stories we heard growing. Alice in Wonderland, Wizard of Oz, Narnia. All isekai stories are just fish out of water stories. All fish out of water stories are the hero's journey conveyed in a less subtle form. The transition from the ordinary world to the supernatural one is so blatantly obvious due to them being literally two distinct worlds. If the act of changing the world a character lives in has no change to that character whatsoever we feel robbed. However change is one of those things that only satisfy an audience once we feel its earned. And we only feel its earned when we identify who the character was before the change, and how the decisions and conflicts caused the character to change afterwards. By that logic Black Lagoon is a better isekai than Overlord. Both Madhouse anime feature a normal timid salaryman MC. I want to make a video brealing down how the 1st 2 episodes of Black Lagoon make for a compelling isekai narrative than 3 seasons of Overlord. |
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_Ako_ said: Right. And...katsucats said: Can you kindly retell what happened to this plz. That's when Subaru was being a fucking Knight for Emilia right?Nope. After episode 13 went down as the cringiest episode in anime history, none of the other complaints even matter anymore. The fact that every other character didn't laugh at Subaru every time they saw him after episode 13 is the biggest plot hole. glassknuckles said: Subaru is very much a self-insert for cringey nerds who think white knighting girls and being manipulative nice guys to grant favors gets pussy. The fact that everyone in the show comes around to being enamored by this guy makes it all the more unbelievable. If anything, Subaru is the ultimate self-insert. While the typical self-insert seeks to convince an average guy that they can get girls, Re:Zero convinces the lowest of the low that they can get girls. But there is nothing special about Subaru either. He's practically the average shounen MC cutout, like a Renton Thurston (Eureka 7) with added cringe. It's like if you took an annoying character and made him even more annoying to pass him off as a completely different character, despite that the rest of his personality remains the same.Re:Zero is better than average because it subverts the trope of the superman protagonist, and Subaru's not even very likeable (compared to the bland good guy Japanese teen boy cutouts the viewer is meant to self-insert with, I suppose). |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
| Its too common. I mean, Japanese people likes to fantasize things :V |
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Somali_Strawhat said: That sounds like it could be a solid reason for some people. It's also consistent with every story, main characters without any development feels empty.I think the reason why isekai gets so much more shit for it is due to it betraying all the isekai stories we heard growing. Alice in Wonderland, Wizard of Oz, Narnia. All isekai stories are just fish out of water stories. All fish out of water stories are the hero's journey conveyed in a less subtle form. The transition from the ordinary world to the supernatural one is so blatantly obvious due to them being literally two distinct worlds. If the act of changing the world a character lives in has no change to that character whatsoever we feel robbed. However change is one of those things that only satisfy an audience once we feel its earned. And we only feel its earned when we identify who the character was before the change, and how the decisions and conflicts caused the character to change afterwards. By that logic Black Lagoon is a better isekai than Overlord. Both Madhouse anime feature a normal timid salaryman MC. I want to make a video brealing down how the 1st 2 episodes of Black Lagoon make for a compelling isekai narrative than 3 seasons of Overlord. A big one for me is something i mentioned way back on page 2: Lunilah said: While SAO season 1 is the only Isekai part of the series, this is the only redeeming quality for me. I gave it a 3/10 but yeah. I feel people generally forget about the premise all together and writers just use it as an excuse to market their story, as it becomes completely inconsequential to the whole theme apart from a few lines of dialogue a lot of the time.Homogeneous premise that has little or no impact on the anime as a whole. They become indistinguishable from basic fantasy/magic anime, with soft rules. I have vehement disgust for SAO BUT, i wish more Isekai took from it's dual worlds story telling, because they seem to throw away it's reality and implications. I feel most of the time there is no real point to Isekai, as most of these adventures could replace the main characters from other worlds with characters from the world they go to, and be a just as suitable 'fish' out of water character. It's entirely redundant, i wish we had more themes with the duality of both worlds. Or fuck i don't know, throw Lelouch into ancient times to fight Alexander the Great and rule the world or some shit. |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
Grey-Zone said: And by the way, where does an isekai show ever "promise" to be "about someone's outlook on life changing upon being transported to a new world"? I know quite a few isekai series, but among those, I know only a single one where something like that is "promised" near the beginning of an isekai LN without anime adaptation, called "Mushoku Tensei", but that series did properly deliver on that promise, so I don't know what it could be. If the only one that you know of that promises a logical change in the MC's life is the one isekai most non isekai fans are even excited for besides Shield Hero than that's your answer right there. As I've stated earlier, isekai fiction predates anime by centuries with western portal fiction. Regardless of the medium however, these stories usually establish the character's flaws and a problematic personality that does not believe he has a problem, or in other cases are dissatisfied but have no idea why. When your MC is just some otaku that doesn't inherently present a flaw since there isn't anything wrong woth just being an otaku. In the Slime manga despite not being particularly ugly or creepy he has no significant other. This isn't a problem im and of itself but we see him envious of his coworker's fiance and relationship. It could be implied that beong sent to another world will make him more self confident around women. The fact that he starts as a slime unable to comminicate is hillarious since his life in the real world was better and symbollically the same as well. We anticipate him changing into someone who's capable of communication and gaining self confidence. In Shield Hero the MC is dropped immediately with little context to who he is other than being a sheltered person. He's then scammed and framed immediately as a rapist. There is an immediate sense of urgency and we see him change into someone who was content in his past life to someone who's faith in humanity has reached rock bottom. The new world promises a change for the worse. Only really it just appears that way. He gains partners, through conflict understands to trust others again, and is rewarded for his effort. Most isekai that people who are non isekai fans enjoy are the ones that promise change and a direction of where the story is headed early on. Log Horizon: MC flaw: Has low self confidence despite his strategic mind and leadership potential. He is indecisive and finds it difficult to work with others out of fear of being taken advantage of. Goal: Find a way out of this world, ease the msntal suffering of those immortal players living in it through clever story arcs about what's worth living for if you can't die, and establish a place where he can be a leader to people he trusts and cares for, becoming someone affected by change into someone who changes others. No Game No Life MC flaw: Twin siblings with a intense distrust of others, this forms an unhealthy codependence on one another, they also live a very destructive self indulgent lifestyle of playing games religously for days barely eating or drinking which is a habit funded by their unseen parents indicating that even they have given up on these 2. They are amazing at games but are bored by the lack of challengers and use for their skill in games. Goal: Upon coming to a world where games are everything they plan to challenge god to a rematch in chess, securing a place as humanity's leader, learn day to day responsibilities and learn to trust and work with other people besides each other. As a result they gain more self respect and pride at being so skilled in games etc etc. You can tell easily whether or not an isekai is going to be more popular to people not into isekai of it follows this structure. Establish character in ordinary world. Fuck his world up. Watch him struggle. Change. Learn what that change truly means. Either return to the normal world or just end the story. Isekai slice of life series end up betraying that basic structure. I like sloce of life and iyashikei stories but I rarely read them if they are isekai. Because I'm always nagged by the questiom of why is this story in another world if they could easily have dumped that part and nothing would change? Knights & Magic is a perfect example. The MC dies flawless. He loves robots and thats all we know. He's a genius and is transported into a world perfect for him. I'm pretty sure he's just in heaven though. Goal: Make the robot he couldn't make back home, defeat the bad guy... Becausd the MC isn't well established before the world of stories and is placed in a narrative driven plot without any inherent flaws are motivation to change, it feels empty. Tanya the Evil: MC flaw: He's arrogant and sadistic, taking comfort in the fact that spciety will accept him as he is as long a he follows the rules, he chooses to not take pity or empathize with a colleague and dies due to a blind spot created by his own apathy. Goal: After blaspheming God in his precense, and rejecting religous ideals such as sympathy and compassion etc sonce he doesn't believe a society where everyone's needs are quickly met needs God or sympathy for incompetents, he's forced into a hell where none of his needs are met and relies on the kindness and compassion of growing up in a church orphanage. He's told by God if he dies again he'll not be given a chance to reincarnate and is born in a time of poverty and war as well as early 20th century medicine and over the top destructive magic. His only strength is that he's strong on said magic but he's forced to rely on God to use it. There is a clear negative change arc however since he realizes that following military orders can allow him to heore sadistic, and if he establishes his compentency early on through valor and ruthlessness he can get the easy rear duty command office life with a retirement pension after what is on most convdntional militaries 20-25 years, effectively retiring as at the easy life of 29-32. Just as long as he can survive and God doesn't throw any more unexpected problems his way, which of course he does. The change doesn't have to be for the better, nor does it have to be something that is even related to morals. The change should either enhance or repair flaws established in the normal world, and should be explored through conflict and be a mechanism for the different aspects of the hero that needs change. Dialogue, fight sequences, surviving death matches, even trying to find a job and struggling at it, when the character is given an opportunity to highlight his flaw and his potential to change for either the better or for the worst, its usually done through action though. Saying you only know one isekai that do this seems like hyperbole since its the basis of what makes for the isekai even non anime fans, let alone non isekai fans tend to enjoy. Either you focused too much on the fun aspects and weren't paying attention, or they just weren't there to begin with. I haven't seen Death March so I can't speculate until I watch it. Also,as I keep saying. Saying SAO is not an isekai just hecause the story world that he is tossed into (I'm talking strictly Aincrad arc here so there might be some misunderstanding here) is virtual seems superficial considering how strongly it clings to story structure devices common in the first act of most isekai. Conflict doesn't require fights but they do require actions and choices. Change is the consequent result of those choices. Konosuba's first episode is a perfect example of a non violent conflict heavy change arc done in the isekai story structure. You don't need to get transported into another world to have cumulative fun though so most people just wonder what's the point of it being an isekai if thats all the series is going for? Again, if a change in planet does absolutely thing to change the character then people feel robbed. If a change does exist but is not comprehended by the audience as to how or why the change occurs, they feel robbed. Lunilah said: Somali_Strawhat said: That sounds like it could be a solid reason for some people. It's also consistent with every story, main characters without any development feels empty.I think the reason why isekai gets so much more shit for it is due to it betraying all the isekai stories we heard growing. Alice in Wonderland, Wizard of Oz, Narnia. All isekai stories are just fish out of water stories. All fish out of water stories are the hero's journey conveyed in a less subtle form. The transition from the ordinary world to the supernatural one is so blatantly obvious due to them being literally two distinct worlds. If the act of changing the world a character lives in has no change to that character whatsoever we feel robbed. However change is one of those things that only satisfy an audience once we feel its earned. And we only feel its earned when we identify who the character was before the change, and how the decisions and conflicts caused the character to change afterwards. By that logic Black Lagoon is a better isekai than Overlord. Both Madhouse anime feature a normal timid salaryman MC. I want to make a video brealing down how the 1st 2 episodes of Black Lagoon make for a compelling isekai narrative than 3 seasons of Overlord. A big one for me is something i mentioned way back on page 2: Lunilah said: While SAO season 1 is the only Isekai part of the series, this is the only redeeming quality for me. I gave it a 3/10 but yeah. I feel people generally forget about the premise all together and writers just use it as an excuse to market their story, as it becomes completely inconsequential to the whole theme apart from a few lines of dialogue a lot of the time.Homogeneous premise that has little or no impact on the anime as a whole. They become indistinguishable from basic fantasy/magic anime, with soft rules. I have vehement disgust for SAO BUT, i wish more Isekai took from it's dual worlds story telling, because they seem to throw away it's reality and implications. I feel most of the time there is no real point to Isekai, as most of these adventures could replace the main characters from other worlds with characters from the world they go to, and be a just as suitable 'fish' out of water character. It's entirely redundant, i wish we had more themes with the duality of both worlds. Or fuck i don't know, throw Lelouch into ancient times to fight Alexander the Great and rule the world or some shit. I think the isekai genre seems like an easy story telling device for creators since many good and bad anime use it to great popularity for both. You're right in many of these stories end up being isekai for no other reason than to chase this trend since the main characters are teleported into a world they might as well have just been a resident of all along with no real change. Or maybe they focus too much on making the premise have a twist without focusing on what kind of story do they want to tell, and whether or not it would be best told in a genre other than isekai since they know its popular. And Lelouch exiled to Macedonian times would be amazing. I'd pay anything to see this get turned into an OVA. Like how he gets close to Alexander by being his most valued advisor using his compunded future intellect, encyclopedic knowledge of tactical warfare from an officer's perspective, and most importantly his GEASS, betraying others secretly all along the way until he decides to try and betray Alexander himself. Yeah, I'd pay alot of money for that. |
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Somali_Strawhat said: Legend of the Macedonian Heroes. It'll be the new paragon of anime.Lelouch exiled to Macedonian times would be amazing. I'd pay anything to see this get turned into an OVA. Like how he gets close to Alexander by being his most valued advisor using his compunded future intellect, encyclopedic knowledge of tactical warfare from an officer's perspective, and most importantly his GEASS, betraying others secretly all along the way until he decides to try and betray Alexander himself. Yeah, I'd pay alot of money for that. |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
CherryLover said: My specific issue with isekai is that it is essentially an otaku bait concept that fulfills all the male fantasies which include obtaining power to fight off some monsters and obtain a harem along the way. Some are more sexualized than others, but this concept alone is what makes me find the genre repugnant. This statement right here pretty much sums up your every contribution to this discussion. You don't like the genre because you feel contempt towards the target audience - lonely and disillusioned nerdy guys. |
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Lunilah said: Somali_Strawhat said: Legend of the Macedonian Heroes. It'll be the new paragon of anime.Lelouch exiled to Macedonian times would be amazing. I'd pay anything to see this get turned into an OVA. Like how he gets close to Alexander by being his most valued advisor using his compunded future intellect, encyclopedic knowledge of tactical warfare from an officer's perspective, and most importantly his GEASS, betraying others secretly all along the way until he decides to try and betray Alexander himself. Yeah, I'd pay alot of money for that. If Legend of Macedonian Heroes became an isekai where all of anime's most devious and cunning and brilliant villain protagonists wound up in opposition to one another in Alexander the Great's campaign, most of whom were rival advisors forming temporary alliances as they back stab their way to the top, it would be LEGEND...DARY. Like if they realize that Alexander the Great is just a title given to whoever wins since history won't know the difference lmao epidemia78 said: CherryLover said: My specific issue with isekai is that it is essentially an otaku bait concept that fulfills all the male fantasies which include obtaining power to fight off some monsters and obtain a harem along the way. Some are more sexualized than others, but this concept alone is what makes me find the genre repugnant. This statement right here pretty much sums up your every contribution to this discussion. You don't like the genre because you feel contempt towards the target audience - lonely and disillusioned nerdy guys. Pretty much. |
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katsucats said: Subaru is very much a self-insert for cringey nerds who think white knighting girls and being manipulative nice guys to grant favors gets pussy. wow, we must have watched a different show. It's exactly his white knighting and arrogance that is why nothing he does works. His white knighting for Emilia makes him a joke and gets him beat up. He gets killed constantly by making faulty assumptions about how others are going to react to him, and sometimes by just being unlucky. Maybe it's unrealistic that anyone would care about him, but on the whole he's hardly an invincible pillar of winning. |
glassknuckles said: epidemia78 said: Nothing wrong with "egoist power trips" or self insert MCs. It's fun. Do you not like fun? vicarious ego trips aren't fun. they're painful and cringe-inducing. i know where to go for fun, and this isn't it. If it's not fun, then why is fiction chock full of relatable characters who strive to overcome the odds to reach a happy conclusion? From superheros to revenge movies to slasher films. Oh but it's only bad when it features cute girls, I see. |
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Somali_Strawhat said: Slap them in the Fate universe and make it last months/years instead of a couple weeks. It'll be like that 2010 Predators movie with Adrian Brody where they get brought to another planet to fight the predators in a death game, except with armies.Lunilah said: Legend of the Macedonian Heroes. It'll be the new paragon of anime. If Legend of Macedonian Heroes became an isekai where all of anime's most devious and cunning and brilliant villain protagonists wound up in opposition to one another in Alexander the Great's campaign, most of whom were rival advisors forming temporary alliances as they back stab their way to the top, it would be LEGEND...DARY. Like if they realize that Alexander the Great is just a title given to whoever wins since history won't know the difference lmao |
I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
Lunilah said: Somali_Strawhat said: Slap them in the Fate universe and make it last months/years instead of a couple weeks. It'll be like that 2010 Predators movie with Adrian Brody where they get brought to another planet to fight the predators in a death game, except with armies.If Legend of Macedonian Heroes became an isekai where all of anime's most devious and cunning and brilliant villain protagonists wound up in opposition to one another in Alexander the Great's campaign, most of whom were rival advisors forming temporary alliances as they back stab their way to the top, it would be LEGEND...DARY. Like if they realize that Alexander the Great is just a title given to whoever wins since history won't know the difference lmao Damnit Japan. How tf does Overlord have 3 seasons and Trapped in a Fate/Stay Machiavellian Anime All Stars World With My Legends of Macedonia not get produced? |
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CherryLover said: Oh, spare me. Authors "writing their own story" does not excuse the blatantly harmful portrayal of women as mere trophies for men to gather in a large number of these so-called isekai anime. My critique not aligning with your own views is not hypocritical in the slightest. Otaku wish-fulfillment simply should not be prioritized over the correct portrayal of women in anime, and there's nothing wrong with me calling the genre out on this fact. Most female characters in these shows are basically superheros and way more confident and capable then the self insert MC. The wish fulfillment is the idea that these amazing women could love a regular guy. What part of that concept is offensive or harmful to real-life women? |
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epidemia78 said: If it's not fun, then why is fiction chock full of relatable characters who strive to overcome the odds to reach a happy conclusion? From superheros to revenge movies to slasher films. Oh but it's only bad when it features cute girls, I see. Name one isekai protagonist from 2010-2018 that deserves a harem/success through earning it with struggle and character growth. He can't have the advantages of 'foreknowledge of history' any idiot could look up online, special gadgets, starting out with superpowers or being 'OP', etc. |
epidemia78 said: glassknuckles said: 2. these are mostly transparent egoist power trip storylines, with a dude getting sex slave harems in Ragnarok and How not to summon a demon lord, ramping up to the level of the Japanese ethnostate as the JSDF slaughters indigenous fighters in GATE like a gang of British tommies with Maxim guns in Africa. Re:Zero is better than average because it subverts the trope of the superman protagonist, and Subaru's not even very likeable (compared to the bland good guy Japanese teen boy cutouts the viewer is meant to self-insert with, I suppose). Nothing wrong with "egoist power trips" or self insert MCs. It's fun. Do you not like fun? Eh my idea of fun is a little different than yours I need a sense of struggle and progression most power trips lack that. |
glassknuckles said: epidemia78 said: If it's not fun, then why is fiction chock full of relatable characters who strive to overcome the odds to reach a happy conclusion? From superheros to revenge movies to slasher films. Oh but it's only bad when it features cute girls, I see. Name one isekai protagonist from 2010-2018 that deserves a harem/success through earning it with struggle and character growth. He can't have the advantages of 'foreknowledge of history' any idiot could look up online, special gadgets, starting out with superpowers or being 'OP', etc. Your stipulations suck all the fun out of the concept. The protagonist absolutely needs to have special powers otherwise there's just no way he will survive after being transported from mundane reality to a medieval fantasy realm. The fun part is seeing how he uses those powers to help people. (which is why I hate Overlord because the MC is a vile bastard) It's a bonus if he gradually becomes a better person in the process. |
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epidemia78 said: The protagonist absolutely needs to have special powers otherwise there's just no way he will survive after being transported from mundane reality to a medieval fantasy realm. The fun part is seeing how he uses those powers to help people. (which is why I hate Overlord because the MC is a vile bastard) It's a bonus if he gradually becomes a better person in the process. Point 1: Watching someone struggle in another world is engaging whether or not they have powers. See No Game No Life, Imawa no Kuni no Alice and Konosuba where the MCs are dropped in a world with no extraordinary superpowers save their knowledge of basic game theory and the meta of the world they were dropped in. Point 2: Why is it always have to be a medieval fantasy? I said earlier that all isekai stories are just fish out of water stories. The fish is in a place of comfort in water, he's forced into land and is now in a place of danger and discomfort. Either he flops painfully back to sea changed by the experience for better or worse, or becomes an entirely new species by adapting to land. Isekai's strongest draw is that the normal world of comfort and the story world of discomfort act as 2 literally different worlds. The world of discomfort could use any setting and isn't tied to any one aesthetic. Point 3: Why is altruism engaging? Because watching people struggle to aspire to shared ideals is satisfiying right? You know what else is engaging? Watching people suffer unjustly. Why are Lelouch and Light in the top 5 MAL characters? Is it because they help people? If a character can convey to the audience why THEY think their actions are justified without resorting to excuses or sob stories, you'll find people capable of empathizing with real pieces of shit without agreeing that they're right. Likability is overrated IMO. Empathy is the only important thing. Point 4: There are so many examples in fiction where gradual change is not always towards a better direction. But referring back to point 3; if the character doesn't make excuses for their actions, and can convey why they can believably justify their behavior, you'll find some fascinating character studies in people spiraling downwards to degeneracy. One of my favorite manga Shamo is like this until the arc where the writer and artist had a falling out due to creative differences. But the experience of watching someone become evil is sometimes more interesting than the experience of watching overcome their personal problems to the benefit of other people since its something most writers don't have the balls to actually commit fully to. Overlord plays it so safe it might as well be called Overblown Kiddie Float |
Somali_StrawhatSep 22, 2018 11:43 PM
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Somali_Strawhat said: I said earlier that all isekai stories are just fish out of water stories. The fish is in a place of comfort in water, he's forced into land and is now in a place of danger and discomfort. Either he flops painfully back to sea changed by the experience for better or worse, or becomes an entirely new species by adapting to land. Well said, much better than I could have. |
glassknuckles said: Somali_Strawhat said: I said earlier that all isekai stories are just fish out of water stories. The fish is in a place of comfort in water, he's forced into land and is now in a place of danger and discomfort. Either he flops painfully back to sea changed by the experience for better or worse, or becomes an entirely new species by adapting to land. Well said, much better than I could have. It is well said and broadly true, but it's also reductivism on the same level as Christopher Booker's "seven basic plots". Incidentally, I've come across isekai stories that fit with at least 5 of those 7. |
| There is no such thing as shit taste. Only idiots who think everyone should have the same taste as they do. |
| Because people like to be armchair critics and Isekai's are a soft target. I mean, I enjoy the hell out of them but thats because they're as much fun as they are fun to make fun of. Unfortunately there are very few I can make it all the way through (well, very few go all the way through). If you're lucky the story will degenerate slowly, If you're unlucky, It'll go multi-track drifting levels cringe. For me, its just fun to try to guess when those things happen, and sometimes get a slightly entertaining story out of it. |
kuuderes_shadow said: It is well said and broadly true, but it's also reductivism on the same level as Christopher Booker's "seven basic plots". Incidentally, I've come across isekai stories that fit with at least 5 of those 7. Its certainly reductivism as there are isekai stories that I enjoy for breaking those rules. But I feel those are the stories where the author's intentions are conveyed clearly to me despite breaking those rules. I was more referencing Campbell's monomyth and Truby's change paradigm but its essentially the same conceit of trying to pinpoint shared elements in resonant storytelling to enhance one's understanding of what makes a story resonate with their audience. I think rhe isekai genre though is at its most effective when it adheres to te hero's journey. Even a villain protagonist when the author isn't afraid of offending the audience, can depict corruption using the hero's journey. That said I'm really enjoying this isekai manga about a guy who has the broke power of making S tier healing potions making him rich. And he just travels from brothel to brothel to review different prostitutes and whether or not he felt like his performance improved or not as a result. No demon lord. No change for the better. Just a dude with a high libido and no shame. I seriously wish this got turned into an anime. So many other fanservice isekai are frustratingly non commital to the potentisl of their premise but will still get greenlit for a 1 season anime solely just to advertise the LN. All this does is waste creator's time and effort that cpuld be better used with series that homestly do not give a shit about being safe |
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| Wow...so much walls of texts in here. I think I'll need like a month to read the whole thread D: |
glassknuckles said: Nope. We watched the same one. It's just that plot points don't occur in isolation. He was beat up in that episode, but it's a cliche in anime that everyone gets strangely enamored with MC. MC has the power to "change people". Everyone comes to respect MC. But MC does not change. The core of his character does not realize his mistake. He swears that he'll get better as a reaction to the negative reaction of other characters, but it is not shown that he truly reflected and gets it. This is not just a Re:Zero thing. It is persistent across like 80% of all shounen. But it just happens to be particularly cringey in Re:Zero due to how far the apple is from the tree.katsucats said: Subaru is very much a self-insert for cringey nerds who think white knighting girls and being manipulative nice guys to grant favors gets pussy. wow, we must have watched a different show. It's exactly his white knighting and arrogance that is why nothing he does works. His white knighting for Emilia makes him a joke and gets him beat up. He gets killed constantly by making faulty assumptions about how others are going to react to him, and sometimes by just being unlucky. Maybe it's unrealistic that anyone would care about him, but on the whole he's hardly an invincible pillar of winning. |
| My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com THE CHAT CLUB. |
Klad said: 1. Overused tropes and cliches 2. Usually predictable plots 3. Terrible and wimpy MCs Thats more than enough to hate a show and isekai is mostly filled with those Pretty much exactly this. Copy and paste episode cliches. |
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