| So uh can someone explain me? I don't understand at allβ but im interested to discuss. |
_Hero_ said: Xaelath said: To put simply since you have TTGL in favs, the substance is the characters, the themes of growing up and overcoming obstacles as well as dealing with the past. The style is the way in which all of it is presented, its artstyle, lots of shouting and incredibly fast pacing.So uh can someone explain me? I don't understand at allβ but im interested to discuss. I don't really know how to properly explain it myself, which is why despite wanting to make this thread for good 3-4 months, only now did I decided to actually try and do it. Ah i get it I have 2 example which might interest yiu By the recent tittle i picked few days ago Houseki no Kuni, Buddhist background, character are based their description. The Manga are quite different from anime so explain the anime one. Style - CGI, Reflection, Glimmers of Gem, a consistent speaking way based on Japanese honourific, mostly asking audience what MC have to do or MC questioning themselves. Themes are 108 days Buddhist according to fans. The character is unique, i loved it, though it my triggered some people. There's sure some ridiculous development here. Shoujo Shuumatsu Ryoko Artstyle are relaxed, tranquil, it tries to explain the world through Philosophy, what is it felt like to be the last few human on earth. It also bring about one personality and friendship such theme. The theme is obviously end of world, nothing left, no human, ruins, they didn't even know where are they, who make this and that. Well ofc i do pay attention for that. I mean the point of animation to give the watcher what the producer/author wanted to feel. Well if it does something about hentai/ecchi stuff isn't it obvious that the author wants to you to feel it too. Even for comedy they want you to laugh, i mean why Konosuba have such a bad artstyle? The LN version have quite good art, the animation in Konosuba? It's above standard but the art what makes it funny. How about Kuzu no Honkai? Dark themed, burned pages, torn pages, dark flowers, sad music theme. It suit the premise of the tittle. |
| There are things I just don't get. That's AD and Darek-- who always seems far beyond the moon. Anyway, just please present the fanservice as it should be, and I'm fine with how shit will go down. |
| style is the substance... substance doesn't always about style... that's all there is to it... |
 "If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| I think I can only present the different styles of the Directors and Manga Artist in this thread. A good example that comes up in my mind would be Masaaki Yuasa and Satoshi Kon, there's also the popular ones like Miyazaki, Hosada and Shinkai. |
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_Hero_ said: Kuma said: By which you mean? Explain.style is the substance... Substance doesn't always about style... that's all there is to it... What? English please.for animated sotries, the way they animated (style) is their subsatnce, it is their style to tell their story telling which their substance... however, there is more than animation in animated form than mere visual representatio.... like my video example, there is few non style substance in it, since few dialogue or story, or character in there, but there is heavy substance in it... |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| I usually prefer substance more than the presentation. Tbh, this is the reason I don't like Gainax/Trigger and Imaishi and I guess Yuasa, though, I need to see more of him, I'll watch Ping Pong anime since it's a character study from what I hear. I'm just not a fan of Yojouhan or Monogatari, though, I kinda like Monogatari more than Yojouhan since the, in terms of characters I just prefer it more. And I just don't like the overall theme of Yojouhan. Edit: although, I still like substance. Millennium Actress is one of my favorite movie. |
-Lofn-Jan 6, 2018 9:07 PM
 πππ«π«π π±π¬π²π π₯ πΆπ¬π², πππ«π±π¦π«' πΆπ¬π² π΄π¦π±π₯ ππ©π© πͺπΆ πͺπ¦π€π₯π± ______________________ |
| To be honest I place much more value to style rather than substance. To me it's not that important the "what" of a show (the story, the ideas, the characters, the situations, etc), but rather the "how" of it (the way the story and the ideas are executed). A screenplay can be brilliant, but no matter how good it is, if the director and rest of the crew in charge of materializing it choose a wrong approach to do it, final product will not be as good as it could have been. Similarly, a screenplay may not be that impressive to begin with, it may be very simple and/or nothing special, even straight bad, but with great decisions and a lot of care put into its execution, final results can be indeed impressive. |
_Hero_ said: well, then, imagine you animate aria with jojo style? keep the story, simply animation... is it still same? of, or ping pong was adapted by kyoani? the story is still same right?Kuma said: Eh... No? The story is the same, no matter how you animate it.... which is what I meant... did you even read it?for animated sotries, the way they animated (style) is their subsatnce, it is their style to tell their story telling which their substance... however, there is more than animation in animated form than mere visual representatio.... like my video example, there is few non style substance in it, since few dialogue or story, or character in there, but there is heavy substance in it... let's be real... animation matter to convince your story in animated form... everyone wouldn't bother watch anime if visual doesn't important to story, just read books.... aku no hana anime and manga story is not that much different, what different is the visual representation.... |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| Yeah, but I get bloated with them. Though, like I said, I haven't watched a lot of Yuasa, just one in fact. Imaishi, just not my kind of directing. I don't even have a director in my favorites. I'm not knowledgeable with directors either, I'm leaning more on mangaka knowledge so call me a nub m8 |
πππ«π«π π±π¬π²π π₯ πΆπ¬π², πππ«π±π¦π«' πΆπ¬π² π΄π¦π±π₯ ππ©π© πͺπΆ πͺπ¦π€π₯π± ______________________ |
_Hero_ said: Kuma said: God, learn English finally, please, and if you are doing this on purpose, then stop.well, then, imagine you animate aria with jojo style? keep the story, simply animation... is it still same? let's be real... animation matter to convince your story in animated form... everyone wouldn't bother watch anime if visual doesn't important to story, just read books.... aku no hana anime and manga story is not that much different, what different is the visual representation.... You are not proving anything, yes the way it is all presented is important. But that won't affect the story itself, a story about revenge is a story about revenge, whether it is Kill la Kill or Berserk. Also I am not sure what do you mean by imagining Aria in the style of JoJo... in a way if we talk SoL itself it already exists, it is called parts 4 and 8... yes the relaxing part would not be there but that does not affect the story itself and does not change what Aria is about. no, i mean, you swap visual from both anime, and keep the story... and again, try imagine, use your brain, is it has same impact? lets said what if madoka magica already has gritty looking from beginning rather than using generic mahou shoujo style? is it has same impact? or, what if kill la kill doesn't animate dby trigger using theyr wacky imaishi sakuga, instead you got something like inferno cop? was it equally masterpiece? sorry if english is not my first language.... |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
_Hero_ said: Kuma said: no, i mean, you swap visual from both anime, and keep the story... and again, try imagine, use your brain, is it has same impact? lets said what if madoka magica already has gritty looking from beginning rather than using generic mahou shoujo style? is it has same impact? or, what if kill la kill doesn't animate dby trigger using theyr wacky imaishi sakuga, instead you got something like inferno cop? was it equally masterpiece? *sigh* no it would not have the same impact... it also would not take proper advantage of the story BUT the story would be the same which is what I mean. sorry if english is not my first language.... Neither is it mine... sure, but you can't convince your story if you don't potray them at least decently with style that fit story telling... i already give you aku no hana case while rotoscoping supposed to give more "realistic depression" feelings give you comedy gold instead... or how aria SOL works much better because the art style give you smooth feelings to begin with.... how jojo "manliness" because they give them manly visual, not some mahou shoujo style... no matter how good your massege is, if people fail to recieve it, it is a waste... not to mention series that doesn't try build a big story, but try to give you visual appealings instead.... something like TLR would not become big if not their pretty girls... and there is nothing worng with that... it is their strength.... my point is that complitely separating style and substance is false dichotomy.... none storytelling works without the style, so does the reverse.... |
KumaJan 6, 2018 9:33 PM
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| Ideally they're put together symbiotically, by which I mean that I don't necessarily think either is more important than the other. However, with a medium as flexible and expressive as anime is, I think style is especially important in this regard. I firmly believe that an anime should justify its existence as an animated product, offering an experience that live-action cannot, or even animation outside of anime for that matter. So I do love it when certain anime make full use of its style. Take Death Note for example. Particular moments are so exaggerated and over the top in a way that's endearing and also gives the show some identity. Same thing with Gurren Lagann, FMA:B, Youjo Senki, JoJo, and plenty others. Of course, substance should also be present. I never want such a uniquely stylish format to go to waste as an empty husk of disappointment. |
| They are both important to me, style to be entertaining and substance to be interesting. If an anime has or focuses only on one then I feel like it's limiting itself and I don't think I have rated a show I consider lacking more than 7. JoJo and Mononoke might not have all that substance to them but it's the style that really set them apart from other similar shows. The over-the-top characterization, dramatization, fights, poses, comedy and horror make for a great experience and enhance stories and characters that have some depth to them. Mononoke is a collection of short stories disconnected from each other with a main character who was given some fun and interesting characterization thanks to his interactions with others but it's the theatrical play vibe is what makes the anime so peculiar and memorable. However even if more emphasis is put on presentation, having no substance makes the anime entertaining but forgettable. I found Mitsudomoe hilarious but after finishing it I didn't care about it anymore. Fantastic Children on the other hand is an anime I think has plenty of substance but really lacks in presentation. The characters design are simplistic and kinda ugly while the bland of presentation makes the first half boring. It's in the second half, when it gets to the substance, that the anime managed to be engaging and even make empathize with the characters. Some people might say anime like Monster are all about the substance but I don't believe it to be true. There's a lot of style in how the story is unveiled, how the characters are portrayed, in that feel of uneasiness and tension typical of mystery shows. I think it could've been so much more bland without its style and presentation that no one would even care about Johan. |
zalJan 6, 2018 9:43 PM
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_Hero_ said: Kuma said: This is kinda funny because JoJo loses its manliness as it goes on, and it becomes only better.sure, but you can't convince your story if you don't potray them at least decently with style that fit story telling... i already give you aku no hana case while rotoscoping supposed to give more "realistic depression" feelings give you comedy gold instead... or how aria SOL works much better because the art style give you smooth feelings to begin with.... how jojo "manliness" because they give them manly visual, not some mahou shoujo style... no matter how good your massege is, if people fail to recieve it, it is a waste... Yes all of this is true... which why the presentation is important but it does not really affect what the story is now does it? And I never said to completely separate them, they have to work together to make the anime good, but they are separate to some extent, they work together but don't change each other... does that make sense?not to mention series that doesn't try build a big story, but try to give you visual appealings instead.... something like TLR would not become big if not their pretty girls... and there is nothing worng with that... it is their strength.... my point is that complitely separating style and substance is false dichotomy.... none storytelling works without the style, so does the reverse.... ehh... i don't read jojo that far, so i can't commen on that... howeever, they are prised for their manly artstyle... i disagree in here, style affected the story... maybe not indirectly, however, even your story is same, it will received different simply with different style... sure, there is sepration to defferentiate aspect in animated form to judge them separately too... but to neglect it simply because you claim it isn't about that when judge a complite product as a whole, was pretty ignorance or at least denial i would said because it is a product, because both are the substance of said product that build it... |
KumaJan 6, 2018 10:04 PM
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
Kuma said: I think that the idea behind separating style and substance in the way we do is that a show tries to tell a story, not make it. Therefore style doesn't affect the story itself since the story is a concatenation of events that are independent from the way you present them, so style indubitably affects the way you perceive the story/substance but not the story/substance itself._Hero_ said: This is kinda funny because JoJo loses its manliness as it goes on, and it becomes only better. Yes all of this is true... which why the presentation is important but it does not really affect what the story is now does it? And I never said to completely separate them, they have to work together to make the anime good, but they are separate to some extent, they work together but don't change each other... does that make sense? ehh... i don't read jojo that far, so i can't commen on that... howeever, they are prised for their manly artstyle... i disagree in here, style affected the story... maybe not indirectly, however, even your story is same, it will received different simply with different style... sure, there is sepration to defferentiate aspect in animated form to judge them separately too... but to neglect it simply because you claim it isn't about that when judge a complite product as a whole, was pretty ignorance or at least denial i would said because it is a product, because both are the substance of said product that build it... Pretty much like telling what really happened to me yesterday, the facts and events that happened yesterday are what they are but depending on the way I tell you about my day can be exhaustively boring or funny or exciting even though I'd be talking about the same day. |
zalJan 6, 2018 10:26 PM
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_Hero_ said: Never heard of that anime :/Onii-chan said: Yes to thatIf you ask my opinion, well, it's style over substance, which is why I tend to watch anime that has good animation (eye-candy) or unique way to present the story. I mean what was the story of Re: Cutey Honey again? Can't put any plausible opinions, since I haven't watched it, but I think it was supposed to be action-comedy anime, that's why the animation style looks weird that suits with the story. However, whats certain is, it doesn't suit my taste. |
Onii-chan said: Kuma said: You just contradicted yourself. Based on what you said, the story remains same, but the audience will comprehend about the story in different way depends on animation style (anime) or writing style (novel). Does it mean the style didn't change the story, but affect the presentation of media to the audience? The substance doesn't change a bit.i disagree in here, style affected the story... maybe not indirectly, however, even your story is same, it will received different simply with different style... the substance isn't, but the reception out of it does.... and that's what important about conveying a message aren't it? what in writer idea might different in what viewer recieve... that's what make art interesting.... zal said: Kuma said: I think that the idea behind separating style and substance in the way we do is that a show tries to tell a story, not make it. Therefore style doesn't affect the story itself since the story is a concatenation of events that are independent from the way you present them, so style indubitably affects the way you perceive the story/substance but not the story/substance itself.ehh... i don't read jojo that far, so i can't commen on that... howeever, they are prised for their manly artstyle... i disagree in here, style affected the story... maybe not indirectly, however, even your story is same, it will received different simply with different style... sure, there is sepration to defferentiate aspect in animated form to judge them separately too... but to neglect it simply because you claim it isn't about that when judge a complite product as a whole, was pretty ignorance or at least denial i would said because it is a product, because both are the substance of said product that build it... Pretty much like telling what really happened to me yesterday, the facts and events that happened yesterday are what they are but depending on the way I tell you about my day can be exhaustively boring or funny or exciting even though I'd be talking about the same day. yes, that's my point... if we discussing about a final product, we need to adress them fully, because we aren't writer it self... we interprete it trough our experience, which is why undeniably, style does matter rather then simply substance if we also discuss overall story.... again, read my aku no hana example.... |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| Style, substance and presentation all play their parts. Depending on the genre, often one of them will be the focus while the other 2 take supporting roles. Try making a comedy with exaggerated facial expressions & body movements using full 3D CGI, it likely won't go over so well. (Not just because many people hate all CGI) Make that same comedy with traditional animation using over-exaggerated facial expressions & body movements, and it'll accent the humor. Chibi characters for ecchi, or dark-themed horror/psychological story doesn't fit well either. The mix ratio will be semi-unique for each story being told. |
 You're never too old to watch anime. If I ever stop watching anime, check my pulse I'm likely dead. I wake up with coffee & anime, I go to sleep with coffee & anime. Sorry if my sarcasm is bad, it's not my first language. |
| I find it's better to pick up on these nuances and subtleties during the rewatch. I know a lot of people don't indulge in that, it's kind of a pain unless you actually enjoyed the series or saw there was something to watch for the second time around, like after I had finished Paranoia Agent and the mystery at the end was revealed it brought but more insight to the original story and gave it more substance and density to the property but you'd never pick up on that the first time, I think Satoshi Kon stuff in general has that effect. But I'll even throw my hat in at Boku no Hero because I had read a bunch of old style comics in between S1 and S2 a lot of Hellboy and Watchmen and you can see a bunch of pulled inspiration and story beats Horikoshi pulled for design and plot details from those two series alone. I also love learning about the cinematography perspective since I've become more of a film buff in recent years but not everyone will pick up and point them out, so I do indulge when someone points them out for me. Haha. |
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Kuma said: However no one said here that style doesn't matter, not that I've seen at least. We're just separating them into concepts (categorizations and generalizations) so we can discuss about the different aspects of the show since discussing all at once becomes too convoluted and specifically this thread is about one's opinion regarding these two/three concepts.zal said: I think that the idea behind separating style and substance in the way we do is that a show tries to tell a story, not make it. Therefore style doesn't affect the story itself since the story is a concatenation of events that are independent from the way you present them, so style indubitably affects the way you perceive the story/substance but not the story/substance itself. Pretty much like telling what really happened to me yesterday, the facts and events that happened yesterday are what they are but depending on the way I tell you about my day can be exhaustively boring or funny or exciting even though I'd be talking about the same day. yes, that's my point... if we discussing about a final product, we need to adress them fully, because we aren't writer it self... we interprete it trough our experience, which is why undeniably, style does matter rather then simply substance if we also discuss overall story.... again, read my aku no hana example.... |
zalJan 6, 2018 11:06 PM
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Onii-chan said: Kuma said: I think you doesn't get what OP means about substance here. Take a look at this the substance isn't, but the reception out of it does.... and that's what important about conveying a message aren't it? what in writer idea might different in what viewer recieve... that's what make art interesting.... yes, that's my point... if we discussing about a final product, we need to adress them fully, because we aren't writer it self... we interprete it trough our experience, which is why undeniably, style does matter rather then simply substance if we also discuss overall story.... again, read my aku no hana example.... By Substance I mean the story, characters, themes ETC well, do you already seen my example? is there a story, or character, or theme? then, doesn't mean it supposed has no substance? but it isn't... zal said: OP try tho, like how he saying trigger/gainax is not about style... while they are one of sakuga leadings.... he even mention style over substance which also stupid concept and glorify such concept... style is their substance.... hence why i argue here how misleading it is....Kuma said: However no one said here that style doesn't matter, not that I've seen at least. We're just separating them into concepts (categorizations and generalizations) so we can discuss about the different aspects of the show since discussing all at once becomes too convoluted and specifically this thread is about one's opinion regarding these two/three concepts.yes, that's my point... if we discussing about a final product, we need to adress them fully, because we aren't writer it self... we interprete it trough our experience, which is why undeniably, style does matter rather then simply substance if we also discuss overall story.... again, read my aku no hana example.... |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
_Hero_ said: It was Evangelion with Magical robot x cop Lesbians. Same stuff about human instumentality. Existential life. Only now with lesbians instead of a bisexual incest harem.Onii-chan said: Yes to thatIf you ask my opinion, well, it's style over substance, which is why I tend to watch anime that has good animation (eye-candy) or unique way to present the story. I mean what was the story of Re: Cutey Honey again?   |
Energetic-NovaJan 6, 2018 11:51 PM
The anime community in a nutshell.  |
_Hero_ said: Kuma said: No I don't? Did you even read my post?OP try tho, like how he saying trigger/gainax is not about style... while they are one of sakuga leadings.... he even mention style over substance which also stupid concept and glorify such concept... style is their substance.... hence why i argue here how misleading it is.... Energetic-Nova said: Yup, also something, something my dad was killed, something something something revenge (well that part of cutey honey seemed to be almost not there in the RE version...)It was Evangelion with Magical robot x cop Lesbians. Same stuff about human instumentality. Existential life. Only now with lesbians instead of a bisexual harem. Evangelion is also a revenge story. Especially if you focus on Gendo. |
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_Hero_ said: I never really seen it as one tbh. Rewatch is on its way soon (tm) anyways though so who knows Watch for Gendo's yandere traits , Shinji's quote "You betrayed my heart, you betrayed me like my father!!" To someone he kills. XD |
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Onii-chan said: Kuma said: Listen, those three are called substance. Story, theme and character. There's no way any media has no substance. I don't understand what are you trying to say.well, do you already seen my example? is there a story, or character, or theme? then, doesn't mean it supposed has no substance? but it isn't... they has, but few, does that mean it was inferrior substantly? and again, aku no hana substance between anime and manga is same, but because the style, the substance also has different impact.... _Hero_ said: Kuma said: No I don't? Did you even read my post?OP try tho, like how he saying trigger/gainax is not about style... while they are one of sakuga leadings.... he even mention style over substance which also stupid concept and glorify such concept... style is their substance.... hence why i argue here how misleading it is.... _Hero_ said: Your opinions on the entire Style Over Substance thing and all of that. Personally I pay a lot of attention to the style of a show, to a point where some shows in my favorites are almost exclusively there for it, or at the very least, it plays a big part of them. hence why i answering style over substance concept is misleading, especially for thing that it style is the substance strength... take OPM for example... if you judge it substance by philosophical questioning demand for well build 3 verse character, well, it is not their substance to begin with... but if you judge the style only, then you get the substance as well, it's theme as action... |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
Kuma said: OP said trigger/gainax are not all about style and in regard to LWA, Kill la Kill or Gurren Lagann I agree, on Dead leaves and Inferno Cop I disagree as I seem them as all about style even without the sakuga.Onii-chan said: I think you doesn't get what OP means about substance here. Take a look at this well, do you already seen my example? is there a story, or character, or theme? then, doesn't mean it supposed has no substance? but it isn't... zal said: OP try tho, like how he saying trigger/gainax is not about style... while they are one of sakuga leadings.... However no one said here that style doesn't matter, not that I've seen at least. We're just separating them into concepts (categorizations and generalizations) so we can discuss about the different aspects of the show since discussing all at once becomes too convoluted and specifically this thread is about one's opinion regarding these two/three concepts. he even mention style over substance which also stupid concept and glorify such concept... style is their substance.... hence why i argue here how misleading it is.... I disagree, the substance is the subject matter of the show something like the themes, the events, the characters and other elements that can be considered the "what" of the show. Style is the "how" do they convey those elements.Taking some of your previous comments: well, then, imagine you animate aria with jojo style? keep the story, simply animation... is it still same? of, or ping pong was adapted by kyoani? the story is still same right? Yes, the story and the substance of Aria with jojo's style, pig pong adapted by Kyoani and both version of Aku no hana have the same substance but different style (medium in case of Aku no hana).let's be real... animation matter to convince your story in animated form... everyone wouldn't bother watch anime if visual doesn't important to story, just read books.... aku no hana anime and manga story is not that much different, what different is the visual representation.... Just because they have same substance doesn't mean style is not important to the story, it's just that it isn't the story. Books aren't only substance either, they have styles as well and they matter a lot on how you perceive the story that is being told. No, they wouldn't have the same impact because Jojo's style wouldn't fit Aria's substance. However saying that they have the same substance is not the same as saying having the same impact or experience. Shokugeki no Souma has the same substance in both anime and manga but I have a better experience reading the manga. he even mention style over substance which also stupid concept Style over substance is not necessarily a critique, it can be just a description or even a praise. There are good style over substance examples and there are bad ones. Moreover it can also just be a matter of preference because in this thread there's even Onii-chan who says to be watching anime exactly because it is style over substance. |
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| Team substance would be like Space operas like Legend of the Galactic Heroes. Or dramas like Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu. Sure, this is a "style" but to say that the style is more important to people who watch them it would be false. Team substance would also enjoy the manga Banana Fish as every moment feels important but it is a story that is spread out and giving room to breath. Anime which are style over substance would be anime like Pokemon or bananya. Then I would say in a different space are Autors- meaning people who can't help but have a consistent body of work which shows their personal style. Examples being Miyazaki, Watanabe,Leiji Matsumoto many of the Gainax stuff but including Hideaki Anno, Tadashi Hiramatsu, Yoshiyuki Sadamoto (and yeah, I have full on recognized work from those last two, you can almost always tell it is them working on a project), Masaaki, Yayusa, Gen Urobuchi, Kunihiko Ikuhara, Satoshi Kon, Osamu Dezaki, Tezuka, Go Nagai, Toshio Maeda, Junji Ito, Shungiku Nakamura, Studio Trigger, Studio Shaft, and Kyoani. They have a brand. It isn't so much that they are style over substance so much as, these people are Alfred Hichcock kay. You know what to expect from something directed by Anno or a manga by Junji Ito. It is like having a favorite author more than it is a style over substance or substance over style thing. The thing is, they have a STYLE and whatever the story is, will probably also be told in that style with tropes they have. And yeah character designers like Sadamoto, can have a very distinctive style which you can spot easily if you watch enough stuff designed by him. Also, hot damn does everyone just want to be Go Nagai 9/10 times. Though I gotta say, being Dezaki or like... Leiji Matsumoto- that would be pretty difficult. |
Energetic-NovaJan 7, 2018 12:58 AM
| The anime community in a nutshell. |
Onii-chan said: Kuma said: The substance is the same. The only difference is the adaptation fail to deliver what the substance supposed to be perceived.they has, but few, does that mean it was inferrior substantly? and again, aku no hana substance between anime and manga is same, but because the style, the substance also has different impact.... and they fail becase the style, right? their subsatance fail too because of that? am i wrong? _Hero_ said: Kuma said: Oh that... what about the first part of that sentence? you only answered part of the question.hence why i answering style over substance concept is misleading, especially for thing that it style is the strength... And thus far you've done nothing to prove that this concept is stupid. if people who liking style like you, it isn't that big problem... but when people discrediting a series using "lack of substance, only style" as somewhat legetimate critics.... i am criticizing that because you are part of concept... zal said: Kuma said: OP said trigger/gainax are not all about style and in regard to LWA, Kill la Kill or Gurren Lagann I agree, on Dead leaves and Inferno Cop I disagree as I seem them as all about style even without the sakuga.well, do you already seen my example? is there a story, or character, or theme? then, doesn't mean it supposed has no substance? but it isn't... OP try tho, like how he saying trigger/gainax is not about style... while they are one of sakuga leadings.... i disagree that false dichotomy it self not that they are about style... because their style is also their substance... for example, kill la kill action theme wouldnt be as lit if it isn't given imasihi sakuga... zal said: he even mention style over substance which also stupid concept and glorify such concept... style is their substance.... hence why i argue here how misleading it is.... I disagree, the substance is the subject matter of the show something like the themes, the events, the characters and other elements that can be considered the "what" of the show. Style is the "how" do they convey those elements.Taking some of your previous comments: well, then, imagine you animate aria with jojo style? keep the story, simply animation... is it still same? of, or ping pong was adapted by kyoani? the story is still same right? Yes, the story and the substance of Aria with jojo's style, pig pong adapted by Kyoani and both version of Aku no hana have the same substance but different style (medium in case of Aku no hana).let's be real... animation matter to convince your story in animated form... everyone wouldn't bother watch anime if visual doesn't important to story, just read books.... aku no hana anime and manga story is not that much different, what different is the visual representation.... Just because they have same substance doesn't mean style is not important to the story, it's just that it isn't the story. Books aren't only substance either, they have styles as well and they matter a lot on how you perceive the story that is being told. No, they wouldn't have the same impact because Jojo's style wouldn't fit Aria's substance. However saying that they have the same substance is not the same as saying having the same impact or experience. Shokugeki no Souma has the same substance in both anime and manga but I have a better experience reading the manga. i can agree that it isn't the story, look my first post.... not every substance is visual, however, in animated form, you need to convey the story make it visually understanding to viewer... i don't said style is exaly substance... style is part of substance... the story need to be conveyed so the substance is go trough the viewer.... it's about "why"... why we shouldn't said "i only adore style" or "i only adore substance"... it is alwasy booth, maybe the other is stronger, depend on the prefference, but what i argue is when you try to make a clear dichotomy difference... so i don't disagree with you here... zal said: he even mention style over substance which also stupid concept Style over substance is not necessarily a critique, it can be just a description or even a praise. There are good style over substance examples and there are bad ones. Moreover it can also just be a matter of preference because in this thread there's even Onii-chan who says to be watching anime exactly because it is style over substance.yeah, i kinda jumped out of gun in there, my mistake... |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| Honestly I don't understand the whole style over substance vs substance over style argument. I don't even know where I even stand on this. Would a moe SOL anime be technically considered style over substance? On one hand, I do remember pretty nasty experiences with anime that are purely substance with nothing to engage the audience. Sure people give the whole 2deep4you argument, but I was bored out of my head. On the other, I've also had nasty experiences with anime that are purely style. I was unable to get invested in the show given none of it (or anything the characters do) makes sense. Sure cool shit happens on screen, but I can't focus on any of that at all. |
| If your favourite character is Tsutsukakushi Tsukiko, you are my soul mate. Been a long time since I've been here, I'll continue expressing myself freely and believe everyone should too. My MAL Interview |
_Hero_ said: This starts giving me a headache... @Kuma if people who liking style like you, it isn't that big problem... but when people discrediting a series using "lack of substance, only style" as somewhat legetimate critics.... i am criticizing that because you are part of concept... A concept you failed at criticizing let's face it. Over and over again me and everyone tells you what is meant by both of those ideas, or at least what I meant it when creating this thread... then you agree to it, prove me right and then somehow attempt at saying that because something something I am wrong even though you yourself proved and admitted that I am right.i disagree that false dichotomy it self not that they are about style... because their style is also their substance... for example, kill la kill action theme wouldnt be as lit if it isn't given imasihi sakuga... No it is not their substance, not in the way I present both of those ideas in this very thread. I am really losing my patience. i don't said style is exaly substance... style is part of substance... Which no one, including fucking myself denies, they complement each other I said that 10000 fucking times.For fuck sake. no, it's not about right or wrong... i simply disagree with style and substance dichotomy which i addresed in my original post... i don't disagree the difference as particular, what i simply disagree using it as somewhat polarization from different side as a whole... i simply adressing my opinion about the whole style vs substance thing which you asked in your OP... my opinion that Style VS Sbbstance is already misleading to begin with, because it isn't "VS"to begin with... they are oftenly working together and oftenly, the style is more noticable, it become part of series message try to convey or the substance it self rely on style to convince it.... so yeah, kill la kill sakuga style is part of their substance as action theme... you are the one that asking me first tho,... |
KumaJan 7, 2018 1:13 AM
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
Onii-chan said: @Kuma Oh, my God. The substance is SAME. The story centered around Nakamura, Saeki and Kasuga. I don't what I and everyone should tell to make you understand. again, does the story received same between anime and manga by you? they both had some story, oftenly even same dialogue and scane... the difference only in style... is it has exactly same substance given to you? |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| I'm giving more credit to style lately, though the way the style ties to the substance is what matters the most to me. Perfect Blue, for example, showcases Mima's insanity while she loses grasp of reality and her own identity through continuous precise scene cuts, alternating cameras angles, long shots, detailed scenarios to grant more humanity to her in specific moments, characters realistically "ugly" while the pop-idols are all idealistically "beautiful" delineating what is and what appears to be, etc. It's simply fascinating. However, in Paprika that people praise even more for its amazing visuals, I honestly can't see that much of substance being represented by them. Dreams being rich in detail, but what do those visuals convey in the end? It's surely a visually pleasing show, but never caused more effect on me than simply "yeah, it's visually amazing". There's only one scene in the entire movie where a few shots try to establish a relationship between the monsters in the parade and social problems, but that's as far as it goes. So, I like Style and how it ties to the themes and atmosphere the show tries to convey. However, while I'm able of forgiving a good story/characters despite being visually poor most of the time, the opposite is hard to happen. If the only thing a work can provide is pretty colors, even if it's eye-candy as fuck, it is surely not gonna captivate me as much as something that makes use of good visuals to go beyond the surface. Now, whether I watch something for the visuals alone or not depends on my mood and some scenes are really extremely fucking beautiful for me not to praise. For example, the first scene of Little Witch Academia's first OVA. Once in a while, I checked it and showed to some of my friends, and I have no problems with style > substance as long the substance is decent enough. In the end, style can build a narrative as much a dialogue can, so it's all about circumstance and situation. I prefer to talk about specific shows rather than generalize, as for example I gave fucking 9 to Angel's Egg that has a simple narrative and points to make, but it's simply too gorgeous and I fell in love with it. |
_Hero_ said: Kuma said: But no one who says Style over Substance or the other way around says that it is a VS thing... only YOU. When people say Style > Substance they mean that the show prioritizes the presentation over the story itself which is neither a bad thing nor a good thing. Shitty MAL pseudo-critics who misunderstand that don't matter, considering that there are people that think ecchi is inherently bad, realistic or unrealistic are quality aspects and all that it does not matter, some people are just stupid. That does not alter what people mean by that phrase, and especially what those concept mean in this thread in specific.no, it's not about right or wrong... i simply disagree with style and substance dichotomy which i addresed in my original post... i don't disagree the difference as particular, what i simply disagree using it as somewhat polarization from different side as a whole... i simply adressing my opinion about the whole style vs substance thing which you asked in your OP... my opinion that Style VS Sbbstance is already misleading to begin with, because it isn't "VS"to begin with... they are oftenly working together and oftenly, the style is more noticable, it become part of series message try to convey or the substance it self rely on style to convince it.... so yeah, kill la kill sakuga is part of their substance as action theme... you are the one that asking me first tho,... Now, excuse me, but I am fucking done with you. exactly, i addressing those people kind of people, if you feel the one that being addressed then i am sorry.... that's my opinion on whole style and substance thing.... and i am saying it is on this thread about because it still fit with this thread about which showed in your opening post... am i wrong? Onii-chan said: Kuma said: The substance isn't changed, the impact given is different. Substance one, the impact given by the way substance conveyed by style is another.again, does the story received same between anime and manga by you? they both had some story, oftenly even same dialogue and scane... the difference only in style... is it has exactly same substance given to you? so, the substance you mean is what the story it purely story telling has (which nobody exactly know except writer), not the substance that you get trough style? lets said, what if madoca magica already has death note or aoi bungaku kind of art style to begin with than generic mahou shoujo visual style in beginning, is it still a "original" different mahou shoujo with a twist, or usual thriller where main character get false hope in harsh time? |
KumaJan 7, 2018 1:27 AM
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
_Hero_ said: Ok, maybe "purely substance" wasn't the best word choice here. You get what I mean though, substance heavy anime. Anime with lots of exposition heavy scenes, long inner-monologues etc.On one hand, I do remember pretty nasty experiences with anime that are purely substance with nothing to engage the audience. Sure people give the whole 2deep4you argument, but I was bored out of my head. It is hard to be 2deep4u with substance alone, you need to present the idea in a harder to understand way in order to be well... hard to understand, so they are definitely not all out of style, not at all.I'm not specifically referring to anime that are presented in a way that is hard to understand, but rather anime that spend a lot of time going into the details about one idea/concept. It's makes it hard to hold a person's attention, especially when the person isn't particularly intrigued about that one thing. |
BurningSpiritJan 7, 2018 1:25 AM
| If your favourite character is Tsutsukakushi Tsukiko, you are my soul mate. Been a long time since I've been here, I'll continue expressing myself freely and believe everyone should too. My MAL Interview |
Onii-chan said: Kuma said: This is what you call substance. And the answer is crystal clear. The substance remain same with different animation style.it still a "original" different mahou shoujo with a twist, or usual thriller where main character get false hope in harsh time so, what is the answer? is it the first or the second? |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
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