| Seems very human to me. Is killing and murder unhuman, un-natural only for monsters or are we choosing things we dislike about our species and declaring them not a part of us. Humanity has created many forms of suffering, we cannot simply be rid of those parts of human psyche by declaring them not human, monsters with lines like "those actions were not human, they were done by a monster" when in fact the human is the monster, we were the originators of plenty of unpleasant things yet declare them not human as soon as they disturb us. Our acts as decided by our history have been mainly unpleasant, we had an easy time separating the horrors of WW2 because could blame them on the Nazi party but those people committing the acts of horror were still normal people had you taken away the war and the party all those who did crimes during ww2 would be walking the streets as normal people, all capable of such things when removed from the restrains of civilized society. Just how many normal citizens walking in the streets today are capable of such things when given the same freedom. Humanity is the monster under the bed yet we continue to deny those parts of our species. Killing is not monstrous, its human. Thats not to say we have to accept it, it still breaks the laws of a stable society but its short sighted to pretend those actions are not inherent to us as a species that killing isn't human. Things don't stop been human because we dislike looking at them. We keep trying to claim that its some kind of disease, un-natural not part of normal humanity yet since the dawn of our species we kill, we have murderers it seems very much a part of humanity to me. Give a civilized society guns and someone to kill and many will go and do it, just look at post 911 and everything since. Just how evolved are we really as a species do most people not kill because its the right thing to do, or because they're held back by society and rules, ala the Purge. It conflicts with civilized society but it doesn't conflict with human nature. No? |
SpooksJan 13, 2016 12:12 PM
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| A species that kills other members of the same species isn't completely unheard of, no. Since we're social creatures, we strive for the betterment not only for ourselves, but also for our species as a whole. If we think that some beliefs and actions are damaging to our species, then we might want to kill them to preserve our species. Well, those are just my own thoughts on the matter, but when you imagine someone you want to kill most people imagine say, a paedophile or Hitler, but when you stop to think why you would want to kill them, other than saying "It's obvious", isn't it because you think mankind would be better off? That isn't saying people are in the right by doing it, but it's the kind of rationalisation I think they use, and it's something I think a lot of social species share. |
| This post and a hannibal pic and signiture. Spooks, you're spooking the children. |
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| OP, did you recently finished Hannibal? :P |
| . |
NasalShark said: This post and a hannibal pic and signiture. Spooks, you're spooking the children. Its a scary question. To ask just how many civilized normal people would be capable of such acts given the freedom. Just how many are really morally held back or are they fighting their human nature, the half of human nature that should be expected gone from society but can humans ever be free simply from the parts of it as a species that we don't like. Constant war, death, murder in the world yet today suggests otherwise. To suggest that killing isn't just all a mental illness, you don't have to be crazy and that its just a part of human nature; just like compassion or the positive. Just how many people now would still march the streets in black uniforms putting people in camps and killing because their government says they're allowed to. Just how strong really is human compassion compared to the results of our history. When nearly a whole nation can be convinced into killing a peoples are we really held back by morality, compassion for life or just fear and the law. Its not a comfortable question for a civilized society to ask, making it a good topic for debate. Vinston said: OP, did you recently finished Hannibal? :P I just like a man who knows how to dress, I swear no bearing on the topic. |
SpooksJan 13, 2016 12:26 PM
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| It isn't human for a sane person, no one has the right to take away someone else's life. |
| Only humans uphold morals as they're essential for their survival as social beings. Killing is something that's deemed universally immoral. Therefore, killing is inhumane. Well, if I follow this line of reasoning.... |
Waqalamo said: It isn't human for a sane person, no one has the right to take away someone else's life. Nobody has any rights naturally, rights are given; or taken by society. In reality you are born, from that point on your only right is the rights to attempt to survive. You subscribe to the line of thought that all killers are insane. What of soldiers who function normal within society, or the self defense killer taking a life so theirs can go on. What of the man who kills to better society, who throws the switch during an execution of a killer. The only difference is that one of the killers is approved by the state. We live in a world where killing is human and acceptable only if it benefits the country. If a soldier can go and kill and live a normal life what does that say about the idea that all killers must be crazy monsters. Or what does that say about normal people walking the streets who can go out and kill simply by joining an army. Take a bus of civilized people tell them its legal and they have to kill everyone else to survive and go home and most will attempt to kill other people to survive aka a battle royale situation. This shows that survival and killing others to better your chances is higher a priority in human nature than morality its just in modern society we have tried to remove the threats to human survive meaning we get to use morality more. Take that away though and human need to survive and to kill to do it would return quickly to it's dominant position. |
SpooksJan 13, 2016 12:57 PM
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Natsuroto said: This is what's always interested me. People always moan about the violence in nature, like the jewel wasp which paralyses a cockroach to lead into its tomb as its babies eat it alive. The wasp does that for that one specific purpose. It's not evil, unless God has some twisted humour. But then you look at chimps and their behaviour is just mental and random. Also when the fox hears the rabbit scream he comes running. But not to help. - Mason Verger further more. I believe it was either Socrates or Epictetus who said human beings are the only evil animals because we have the capacity to act while knowing our actions are "evil" A lion can kill a gazelle or it's own young and not be evil because it doesn't know what it's doing, it just does it. |
 Vor uns liegt MAL, in uns marschiert MAL, und hinter uns, kommt MAL! |
| killing another human isn't much different than killing a deer in the forrest, but our society needs rules and laws against it and the safety that comes with it, to let us focus on more important tasks than surival - still taking someones else's life isn't evil in itself. |
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Spooks said: Waqalamo said: It isn't human for a sane person, no one has the right to take away someone else's life. Nobody has any rights naturally, rights are given; or taken by society. In reality you are born, from that point on your only right is the rights to attempt to survive. You subscribe to the line of thought that all killers are insane. What of soldiers who function normal within society, or the self defense killer taking a life so theirs can go on. What of the man who kills to better society, who throws the switch during an execution of a killer. The only difference is that one of the killers is approved by the state. We live in a world where killing is human and acceptable only if it benefits the country. If a soldier can go and kill and live a normal life what does that say about the idea that all killers must be crazy monsters. Or what does that say about normal people walking the streets who can go out and kill simply by joining an army. Yes, it's true that society leads us to believe that killing is morally wrong. While the people in power kill remorselessly. It is pretty hypocritical if you ask me, but killing in some form is necessary, to save a life for example. But killing for killing's sake? That really is insane. As for the idea that killing is inherently a part of human nature, that might be true, but it's definitely not without a purpose. |
Nigami_Shin said: killing another human isn't much different than killing a deer in the forrest, but our society needs rules and laws against it and the safety that comes with it, to let us focus on more important tasks than surival - still taking someones else's life isn't evil in itself. You realize human's have had laws for about 300,000 years, murder for no reason was treated fairly seriously even on the plains of Africa, the perpetrator would be exiled. You can't use reductionism on something multifaceted, you can't reduce the idea of killing down to non-inhernece without reducing the other components. Killing is not evil in and of itself when killing leaves society in a neutral or positive state. Killing a mother of 3 in cold blood =/= killing a pedophile who raped 12 children. One is evil, one is neither good or evil. However, if you caught the pedophile in the act (or claimed you did) in the USA you could kill him and justify it. You have the right to use as much force as you want to prevent a violent felony. |
| Vor uns liegt MAL, in uns marschiert MAL, und hinter uns, kommt MAL! |
| I see your points now, I think. This is what I think. War, for starters, leaders start these, the soldiers are then sent to do the killing. When sat at the front lines, rifle aimed at the enemy, most people are going to shoot, you can think they want to kill the enemy, I think they're acting out of self-preservation. There's people who wants to go to war, you can think they do it to get an excuse to kill, I think there are other explanations for this as well, impressing others is a big one, showing that you're a good person for wanting to stand up for your country. Murderers, there's many things that can bring a person to murder, dehumanizing your foe like the Germans and Japanese did during WW2 is one way, and when everyone keeps saying someone isn't human, you might start to believe it eventually. This is because it's easier to kill someone who "isn't even human". Furthermore, if killing humans was an integral part of our species, we probably wouldn't have the mindset that it is wrong, but we do act in a way that we think is best at the time, killing in the name of self-defence for example. Anyway if anyone is genuinely curious on this matter, I'd apply Occam's razor. So there's two hypotheses: 1: Humans want to murder. We don't murder because it's against the law and it'd get us in trouble et.c 2: Humans don't want to murder. This doesn't necessarily prove anything, but to me it feels simpler to assume that hypothesis 2 is correct since it makes fewer assumptions. |
| Say, if there would be no more murder laws all of a sudden, I am sure quite a hefty amount of the population would murder another. And that would pretty much continue as a chain reaction more than anything. Since for sure, even those that don't have the "guts", will try to defend themselves. I'd say that after a while though, all of it will stop and people will just form more closed groups and fend for themselves and for the members of the group, AKA tribes. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
| It is humane. You're telling me putting somebody out of their misery. Isn't? |
| that's just one way of looking at it but they're saying killing in general dear |
| Surely, by social and law standards, murder in most cases is not "humane". But, is it "human"? Well, what pushes someone to commit murder anyway? That's what answers that question. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
| It is because we are weak minded and have long since abandoned our survival mentality that we are affected by killing now. You know we can ignore the damage killing does to our brain. The question is how to do that. Still a myth tho. |
| who said that? you can kill other species for food, but humans have morality and killing for fun and killing your own species are the ways of animals and not humans, so you have to weed out the human who have turned into animals/monsters |
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| It is condemned by society but society won't progress without it anyway. |
| real hard discussions on the My Anime List website |
| Killing isn't bad, in and of itself. Killing your rapist is fine. Killing yourself is fine. Killing becomes a problem because of the reasons we do it. However, it's not inhuman at all. Violence is an integral part of nature. In fact, violence is underrated. It's a lot of fun. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| Killing isn't any more or less human than anything else it is humans are capable of. Killing is just a part of nature, animals kill in order to feed themselves, in order to defend themselves, and in order to kill off competition. Humans mostly kill for the same reasons (sans the feeding themselves part, unless they're cannibals, or killing a non-human animal), especially killing others over competition; we're always killing each other over resources, competing ideologies, or just simply because some of us enjoy the pleasure of killing. |
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| Idk but IMO, whether it's for work, revenge, lawful punishment, for your senpai or because it's your hobby, it's still wrong to me. Idk it feels like taking another one's life isn't for you to decide whether it's for good or bad, it's God's decision... |
Gin-chan said: Anime - it's not something that can be thought of in a hall for conferences. It is made out of strange juices current from the brain of animators.  |
Yuki-Shiro said: Abnormalities and disorders defined as such by society.Anyone who is killing other human beings without any reaction can actually be diagnosed with mental problems. Abnormalities in the brain and all that. So it isn't human to kill each other, no. It's a result of some sort of disorder. Since when murder happens, there's simply a disconnect from you and the situation, there's a whole lot of work to get over your brain wiring, but it's not a "disorder" or "abnormality". Murder in general does not happen at random either. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Immahnoob said: Abnormalities and disorders defined as such by society. Pretty much everything is defined by society though, is it not? Life itself is a concept that society came up with, right? Just how far the borders of what can be called murder go then? |
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| Not necessarily, but that's not really my point. Society in our case can easily be wrong by it's own findings. E.g. schizoid disorder isn't really a disorder by definition, neither of the characteristics a schizoid has can necessarily make the life of a schizoid harsher in society in a relevant manner like for example, being a schizophrenic, which includes shit like hallucinations. That's why "schizoid disorder" has been criticized from many points of view, including number of "patients" and effect on day to day life, making it more of a style of life rather than a "disorder". You can also think of psychopaths and sociopaths. Most function in society really well. Something is defined "abnormal" when obviously, it's not "normal" or part of the majority of cases in THIS society. It's a "disorder" when it also proves to be hard for someone to function in THIS defined society. So, if say, a relevant majority were "sociopaths", we wouldn't be saying it's a "disorder". |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
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