Which Battle Shounen is a masterpiece?
One Piece
18.9%
144
Naruto (Shippuden included)
11.4%
87
Bleach
2.8%
21
Fairy Tail
3.4%
26
Katekyo Hitman Reborn
1.1%
8
Hunter x Hunter 2011
30.3%
230
Dragon Ball Z
8.0%
61
Hokuto no Ken
1.2%
9
Yu Yu Hakusho
6.4%
49
None
16.4%
125
760 votes
Shrabster said: A show that I would describe as a masterpiece would have to do something that no other show has done (or at least be fairly unique) and/or do what it does extremely well and polished enough to set it above the rest. In my opinion, no battle shounen has or will do this due to their own nature. So, where is my "None" option in the poll? Sooo.......basically nothing is a masterpiece? That's a pretty downcast view to have. |
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RedRoseFring said: It sounds again like you simply weren't paying attention, then complained about everything you missed. Fishman Island had: Arlong and Jinbei's past. The Tennryubito Luffy's destruction of the Island Poseidon & Roger Big Mam New techniques & First impressions. To say it had nothing implies that you watched the intro to one episode, turned off your screen then went to a forum to sulk about how it had nothing. Amen. |
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Emnay said: Link_of_Hyrule said: Let's take a look at one of my favorite shows, I consider it a masterpiece. It just so happens that this show is considered ecchi, and we all know the tropes and cliches that come along with ecchi. Does that mean because it's ecchi, it is "formulaic and similar" to every other ecchi show out there? Not even close. Just because a show falls under battle shounen doesn't = SO MANY STEREOTYPES AND SCREAMING IT'S ALL FORMULAIC AND STEREOTYPICAL.Emnay said: Link_of_Hyrule said: You need to watch the show. You can't make a judgement on an entire genre based on a couple episodes. You can generalize every genre out there.How much screaming and fighting do I need to watch with different characters and different plots to come to the conclusion that screaming and fighting is a cliche that many battle shounens are built upon? I would argue that I have seen more than enough to draw that conclusion. Are there exceptions? Yes. Are exceptions rare? Yes. Does fighting and screaming happen in battle shounen? Yeah. But saying "battle shounen can't be considered master pieces" is stupid. You can consider them masterpieces all you want want; all I am saying is that in my opinion, it doesn't feel right to call formulaic and extremely similar shows "masterpieces". Are they all good shows? Yes. Masterpieces? Not in my opinion. Watching well over twenty episodes of several battle shounen more then qualifies me to observe tropes, patterns, and cliches in the genre. Well, you are leaving out a crucial detail; does the show you like actually contain a horde of stereotypes and tropes? If it does, then I don't think it should be considered. If it doesn't, and it is only considered "ecchi" because that's the closest thing it can be grouped into due to an otherwise unique and well-written show, it certainly can be considered. Again, this is all just my opinion. |
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| The one that's not on the poll: FMA:B However, in my opinion, both FMAs are beyond being simply labelled as a 'battle shounen' so I guess they don't have to be on this poll. |
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RedRoseFring said: Link_of_Hyrule said: Emnay said: Link_of_Hyrule said: You need to watch the show. You can't make a judgement on an entire genre based on a couple episodes. You can generalize every genre out there.How much screaming and fighting do I need to watch with different characters and different plots to come to the conclusion that screaming and fighting is a cliche that many battle shounens are built upon? I would argue that I have seen more than enough to draw that conclusion. Are there exceptions? Yes. Are exceptions rare? Yes. Does fighting and screaming happen in battle shounen? Yeah. But saying "battle shounen can't be considered master pieces" is stupid. You can consider them masterpieces all you want want; all I am saying is that in my opinion, it doesn't feel right to call formulaic and extremely similar shows "masterpieces". Are they all good shows? Yes. Masterpieces? Not in my opinion. Watching well over twenty episodes of several battle shounen more then qualifies me to observe tropes, patterns, and cliches in the genre. Well then....what do YOU consider a masterpiece? Well, two anime I consider to be masterpieces are Steins;Gate and Neon Genesis Evangelion. |
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judals said: Jal90, I see... Well, arcs like Fishman Island, for example, DID have nothing to do with the main story, if a chapter happens where some character returns, or where a new character appears, that is bound to appear later, that doesn't really redeem the whole arc, or even the episode in question, as good or even relevant. First, this arc was announced since the volume 7 or 8. I'm not a fan of this arc, but if it didn't appear it would be terrible writing. Anyway, it is completely relevant to the main story through the shit Big Mom was doing in this island. Also, chances are high, Jinbe will join the strawhat crew, and that wouldn't be possible without this arc. So no, this arc ain't filler. |
How are they intricate? Simple: by moving the plot forward in unexpected ways with unexpected connections. in other words, whatever happens, happens.It doesn't seem unexpected. Just seems like a writer trying to tie things together, which seems forced and unplanned. About laboon, this is a happy go lucky show, of course he'd still be relevant until he gets closure, no one "did not expect" it, they wouldn't make a whole arc about him if he were just gonna leave like that. And from your argument it seems that making up things as he goes that people don't expect is good by default? Kubo does that better. In short, character introductions, re-introductions and events that they shape are and will always be a major part of intricacy. How did one piece do it? Just randomly, that's why the character relations are not intricate, because intricacy is about how they connect, not whether or not they do (which of course, they do, as in every story) And of course, simply re-introducing a character does nothing if it has no relevance. Bringing back Vivi on Punk Hazard or Thriller Bark where she has no business being would be plain silly. Bringing back a character when they are needed is a staple of good writing from every piece of literature Except that's what happens. In fact most of the main characters aren't very relevant. A writer of course can force a task upon a character but that doesn't mean he actually accomplished something special. Any writer can do that. To make it short, every claim about how one piece is connected/intricate is the same: This character came back, this guy happens to have met this guy a couple of years ago and so on. It seems like a generic response inserted to impress instead of the reality of it. It seems especially contradicted when it tries to use that as if to make it different from its counterparts; bleach, naruto and fairy tail. Or when it claims that shows like FMA or Hunter x Hunter are simple in comparison. Besides, this is only good if it's done in an intricate way, not in itself. And if it's not so overdone that the writer seems like he's just doing these for the heck of it. |
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Link_of_Hyrule said: Okay then: name a popular battle shounen besides FMA that doesn't have fighting and screaming in every single episode. Did you even watch a good portion of Naruto? the ratio between episodes with no fights and episodes with fight is really highly in favor of the former. A lot of my favorite episodes in the series don't even have a single action scene. The fighting doesn't have screaming. I think you are referring to One Piece and Fairy Tail here. |
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Link_of_Hyrule said: And I'm stating my opinion about your opinion. People need to stop accusing others of being defensive or butthurt when they feel like they're losing.Haha, y'know, there's really no need to get so defensive when all I am doing is stating my opinion. When I see 5-10 shows of the same genre that are all built around the exact same core of writing tropes/techniques, characters archetypes, and plot structure, I have seen more then enough to get gauge of what the norm is for the genre. That is a simple fact. You may disagree with the conclusion I draw, but you can not act as if I don't have right to an opinion because you have seen more then me. It is as Shrabster said: Do you know how big some genres are? Saying you can generalize all anime in a genre that could have thousands of anime in it just from watching 5 - 10 is ridiculous. No that isn't a fact. I disagree with your conclusion, how you got your experience, and that they all use the same tropes, techniques, characters, etc. And I'm not saying you don't have the right to have an opinion because I've watched more than you. I've never mentioned how much I've watched. It doesn't matter, it's about how much you've watched which is very little. And you can still have an opinion, I'm just telling you I don't think you've seen enough to draw a conclusion. |
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YorozuyaGinSan said: I guess. Only lil' kiddies watch the shonens though. JJBA is a shounen (minus the Part 7 and 8). |
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YorozuyaGinSan said: Only lil' kiddies watch the shonens though. #truth #real talk parfaited said: This MAL anime discussion forum and its people (probably the same 4-5 people) are making me hate HxH. I know that's pathetic but it's true. #i know that feel |
tsudecimoFeb 18, 2014 2:31 PM
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SetsukoHara said: judals said: Jal90, I see... Well, arcs like Fishman Island, for example, DID have nothing to do with the main story, if a chapter happens where some character returns, or where a new character appears, that is bound to appear later, that doesn't really redeem the whole arc, or even the episode in question, as good or even relevant. First, this arc was announced since the volume 7 or 8. I'm not a fan of this arc, but if it didn't appear it would be terrible writing. Anyway, it is completely relevant to the main story through the shit Big Mom was doing in this island. Also, chances are high, Jinbe will join the strawhat crew, and that wouldn't be possible without this arc. So no, this arc ain't filler. I'm not saying it's "filler", by any means. It just felt so bad it felt like filler for me. And just because they introduced a character, that they claimed was big, doesn't really make the whole arc for me. Okay Jinbe and SH, one of the yonkou all big events, all never happened IN the arc, all of it was hype, so in other words, it's all just talk, and that could've been placed anywhere, and if it had to exist in FI, FI itself should not have been what it is. I say show, not tell/hype. All it does is make things interesting until they actually show up and disappoint. So it's good for making a fuss about a future arc rather than being a good arc itself, or the later arc being good either, perhaps. |
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| FullMetal Alcehmist: Brotherhood is most definitely a masterpiece. It keeps a lot of traditional shonen elements, like the comedy and smart action scenes, but is also rich with character depth, philosophy, intelligence, etc. It goes up and beyond any action shonen out there with its detailed exploration of morality. It is, in short, not only the most ambitious action shonen ever made in its scope, but one of the most ambitious anime made period. The fact that it is so plot-heavy and yet features some tons of absolutely fantastic characterization and development is a testament to its greatness. The follow-up is HunterXHunter 2011, which is the only other action shonen to have a scale and scope to rival FMA:B. Psychology is as integral to its structure as philosophy is to FMA:B's. Absolutely great stuff, and the current arc is one of the best arcs I've ever seen in a shonen period. I love One Piece, but I wouldn't put it in the same category as the above two. For all the things it does right, it's still bogged down by utterly forgettable villains, dragged out action scenes, inappropriately placed humor, and has far too many characters for its own good. Still, I'd say it's the best example on how to do a 'typical' shonen right. |
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judals said: Jal90, I see... Well, arcs like Fishman Island, for example, DID have nothing to do with the main story, if a chapter happens where some character returns, or where a new character appears, that is bound to appear later, that doesn't really redeem the whole arc, or even the episode in question, as good or even relevant. Most writers work to make a good arc and Oda just makes these subpar chapters and then inserts some of these teasers like "well, I did include that part, so I guess you can say it's all pretty important and intricate" Every shonen has that, it's just that the meat of the arc is not so bad that it would stand out as much. Other arcs feel filler-ish for other reasons. To me, Water 7 felt like filler. Not the mansion/set-up part, but the second half of it. That was fights like the ones described in Link's post. Fishman Island has many things to do with the main story, I really don't know where you take that from. I'd agree with you on the Water 7 part, at least partially. The sea train thing with Sanji was a sort of downer in that sense, specially because this arc was, precisely, very focused on cliffhangers and shock moments, hence how a whole structure of short fight after short fight doesn't feel right there. I enjoyed it, but way less than the first half/two thirds. I have this sort of feeling with every arc that focuses too much on dispersed battles, so this is probably because it's just not my kind of thing. For instance the first half of Enies Lobby is sure fun but in the episode/chapter level I don't find any particularly memorable, they don't have (some brilliant exceptions here and there though) the individuality required to be as such. I guess this is why I'm enjoying the hell out of Dressrosa right now, because it has been focused on introducing elements and cliffhangers instead of dispersed action sequences here and there. |
Link_of_Hyrule said: How much screaming and fighting do I need to watch with different characters and different plots to come to the conclusion that screaming and fighting is a cliche that many battle shounens are built upon? I would argue that I have seen more than enough to draw that conclusion. Are there exceptions? Yes. Are exceptions rare? Yes. do you hate screaming an fighting that much? how come you like Fate Zero then? one of its main hooks is the fighting an it has a shit ton of screaming (Berserkers entire dialogue consists of screaming) |
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IntroverTurtle said: Link_of_Hyrule said: And I'm stating my opinion about your opinion. People need to stop accusing others of being defensive or butthurt when they feel like they're losing.Haha, y'know, there's really no need to get so defensive when all I am doing is stating my opinion. When I see 5-10 shows of the same genre that are all built around the exact same core of writing tropes/techniques, characters archetypes, and plot structure, I have seen more then enough to get gauge of what the norm is for the genre. That is a simple fact. You may disagree with the conclusion I draw, but you can not act as if I don't have right to an opinion because you have seen more then me. It is as Shrabster said: Do you know how big some genres are? Saying you can generalize all anime in a genre that could have thousands of anime in it just from watching 5 - 10 is ridiculous. No that isn't a fact. I disagree with your conclusion, how you got your experience, and that they all use the same tropes, techniques, characters, etc. And I'm not saying you don't have the right to have an opinion because I've watched more than you. I've never mentioned how much I've watched. It doesn't matter, it's about how much you've watched which is very little. And you can still have an opinion, I'm just telling you I don't think you've seen enough to draw a conclusion. "And I'm stating my opinion about your opinion. People need to stop accusing others of being defensive or butthurt when they feel like they're losing." Haha, that's cute. Don't flatter yourself. Anyway, this is where we have reached our disagreement: Do you actually not think that watching significant amounts of the 5-10 anime that everyone says "defines their genre" is enough to know what the genre is centered around, or are you just trying to play that card because you don't like my opinion? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt: If 5-10 isn't enough, how many is? 20? 30? 100? If you are seriously suggesting that there is a set amount of the genre that needs to be watched to draw ANY conclusions about the genre (which is absurd), what is that number? |
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Link_of_Hyrule said: So you say that because a show contains stereotypes, that means it can't be unique and well written? The show is certainly ecchi, it's also unique and well written. Having stereotypes doesn't turn your show into unoriginal content.Well, you are leaving out a crucial detail; does the show you like actually contain a horde of stereotypes and tropes? If it does, then I don't think it should be considered. If it doesn't, and it is only considered "ecchi" because that's the closest thing it can be grouped into due to an otherwise unique and well-written show, it certainly can be considered. Again, this is all just my opinion. |
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| Jal90, you misunderstood, I'm not saying it couldn't be relevant by say, inserting or mentioning a character. Hell, they can show Gol D. then, and then what? How would that make Hodi, and his goons and the 45 episodes of stalling and nosebleeds anymore relevant? It would just be a needle of importance in a haystack of irrelevance. And one other thing, just because it's important to the main plot, doesn't mean it has to be good... at least for me. Tobi's reveal was undeniably very important... that doesn't mean liking it is obligatory. |
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silversaint said: Link_of_Hyrule said: How much screaming and fighting do I need to watch with different characters and different plots to come to the conclusion that screaming and fighting is a cliche that many battle shounens are built upon? I would argue that I have seen more than enough to draw that conclusion. Are there exceptions? Yes. Are exceptions rare? Yes. do you hate screaming an fighting that much? how come you like Fate Zero then? one of its main hooks is the fighting an it has a shit ton of screaming (Berserkers entire dialogue consists of screaming) I don't hate screaming and fighting; I never said that. I am merely pointing out that "screaming and fighting" is one of the tropes that seem to characterize battle shounen. Battle Shounen are extremely formulaic and therefore I don't think any of them are original or different enough to be considered "masterpieces". |
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Link_of_Hyrule said: 20 episodes of 300 or even 600+ episode series is not a significant amount and 5 or 10 anime is not a significant amount in a genre that may have thousands of anime in it. And don't exaggerate, how many people have you heard say those anime "define" the genre? And even if people did say that, that doesn't mean it's true.IntroverTurtle said: Link_of_Hyrule said: And I'm stating my opinion about your opinion. People need to stop accusing others of being defensive or butthurt when they feel like they're losing.Haha, y'know, there's really no need to get so defensive when all I am doing is stating my opinion. When I see 5-10 shows of the same genre that are all built around the exact same core of writing tropes/techniques, characters archetypes, and plot structure, I have seen more then enough to get gauge of what the norm is for the genre. That is a simple fact. You may disagree with the conclusion I draw, but you can not act as if I don't have right to an opinion because you have seen more then me. It is as Shrabster said: Do you know how big some genres are? Saying you can generalize all anime in a genre that could have thousands of anime in it just from watching 5 - 10 is ridiculous. No that isn't a fact. I disagree with your conclusion, how you got your experience, and that they all use the same tropes, techniques, characters, etc. And I'm not saying you don't have the right to have an opinion because I've watched more than you. I've never mentioned how much I've watched. It doesn't matter, it's about how much you've watched which is very little. And you can still have an opinion, I'm just telling you I don't think you've seen enough to draw a conclusion. "And I'm stating my opinion about your opinion. People need to stop accusing others of being defensive or butthurt when they feel like they're losing." Haha, that's cute. Don't flatter yourself. Anyway, this is where we have reached our disagreement: Do you actually not think that watching significant amounts of the 5-10 anime that everyone says "defines their genre" is enough to know what the genre is centered around, or are you just trying to play that card because you don't like my opinion? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt: If 5-10 isn't enough, how many is? 20? 30? 100? If you are seriously suggesting that there is a set amount of the genre that needs to be watched to draw ANY conclusions about the genre (which is absurd), what is that number? Don't know if there's an exact number but 20 episodes each in 5 - 10 anime is definitely not enough. |
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Emnay said: Link_of_Hyrule said: So you say that because a show contains stereotypes, that means it can't be unique and well written? The show is certainly ecchi, it's also unique and well written. Having stereotypes doesn't turn your show into unoriginal content.Well, you are leaving out a crucial detail; does the show you like actually contain a horde of stereotypes and tropes? If it does, then I don't think it should be considered. If it doesn't, and it is only considered "ecchi" because that's the closest thing it can be grouped into due to an otherwise unique and well-written show, it certainly can be considered. Again, this is all just my opinion. Stereotypes don't automatically disqualify an anime from being good, unique, or even a masterpiece. However, building a show upon tropes and stereotypes drastically decreases that show's odds of being anything special. Have stereotypical plots been done well? Yes. Have stereotypical characters been done well? Yes. Are those cases few and far between? Yes. |
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Link_of_Hyrule said: silversaint said: Link_of_Hyrule said: How much screaming and fighting do I need to watch with different characters and different plots to come to the conclusion that screaming and fighting is a cliche that many battle shounens are built upon? I would argue that I have seen more than enough to draw that conclusion. Are there exceptions? Yes. Are exceptions rare? Yes. do you hate screaming an fighting that much? how come you like Fate Zero then? one of its main hooks is the fighting an it has a shit ton of screaming (Berserkers entire dialogue consists of screaming) I don't hate screaming and fighting; I never said that. I am merely pointing out that "screaming and fighting" is one of the tropes that seem to characterize battle shounen. Battle Shounen are extremely formulaic and therefore I don't think any of them are original or different enough to be considered "masterpieces". That exact statement can be applied to basically anything. I could easily just say that almost every mecha is about war and involves robots therefore making them all generic, common and relying on similar tropes which means I won't consider any of them a masterpiece. |
judals said: Jal90, you misunderstood, I'm not saying it couldn't be relevant by say, inserting or mentioning a character. Hell, they can show Gol D. then, and then what? How would that make Hodi, and his goons and the 45 episodes of stalling and nosebleeds anymore relevant? It would just be a needle of importance in a haystack of irrelevance. And one other thing, just because it's important to the main plot, doesn't mean it has to be good... at least for me. Tobi's reveal was undeniably very important... that doesn't mean liking it is obligatory. Then again, if you come with the shit about how "it doesn't matter how relevant it is, it's just no good", I'll kindly inform you that FI is my overall least favorite canon arc of the series and probably by a mile. I don't try to label it as filler for that reason and know of its relevance for the overall story, though. |
SolBlade said: YorozuyaGinSan said: I guess. Only lil' kiddies watch the shonens though. JJBA is a shounen (minus the Part 7 and 8). HAHA That's a good one, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure totally wasn't published in Weekly Shounen Jump for 15 years. You haven't even read it though... #SHOTS FIRED |
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IntroverTurtle said: Link_of_Hyrule said: 20 episodes of 300 or even 600+ episode series is not a significant amount and 5 or 10 anime is not a significant amount in a genre that may have thousands of anime in it. And don't exaggerate, how many people have you heard say those anime "define" the genre? And even if people did say that, that doesn't mean it's true.IntroverTurtle said: Link_of_Hyrule said: And I'm stating my opinion about your opinion. People need to stop accusing others of being defensive or butthurt when they feel like they're losing.Haha, y'know, there's really no need to get so defensive when all I am doing is stating my opinion. When I see 5-10 shows of the same genre that are all built around the exact same core of writing tropes/techniques, characters archetypes, and plot structure, I have seen more then enough to get gauge of what the norm is for the genre. That is a simple fact. You may disagree with the conclusion I draw, but you can not act as if I don't have right to an opinion because you have seen more then me. It is as Shrabster said: Do you know how big some genres are? Saying you can generalize all anime in a genre that could have thousands of anime in it just from watching 5 - 10 is ridiculous. No that isn't a fact. I disagree with your conclusion, how you got your experience, and that they all use the same tropes, techniques, characters, etc. And I'm not saying you don't have the right to have an opinion because I've watched more than you. I've never mentioned how much I've watched. It doesn't matter, it's about how much you've watched which is very little. And you can still have an opinion, I'm just telling you I don't think you've seen enough to draw a conclusion. "And I'm stating my opinion about your opinion. People need to stop accusing others of being defensive or butthurt when they feel like they're losing." Haha, that's cute. Don't flatter yourself. Anyway, this is where we have reached our disagreement: Do you actually not think that watching significant amounts of the 5-10 anime that everyone says "defines their genre" is enough to know what the genre is centered around, or are you just trying to play that card because you don't like my opinion? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt: If 5-10 isn't enough, how many is? 20? 30? 100? If you are seriously suggesting that there is a set amount of the genre that needs to be watched to draw ANY conclusions about the genre (which is absurd), what is that number? Don't know if there's an exact number but 20 episodes each in 5 - 10 anime is definitely not enough. That is your opinion. You are now using your opinion to try to disprove my opinion, which is a logical fallacy. When people ask: "What is a shounen?" What examples are given 95% of the time? The big three: Bleach, Naruto, One Piece. Done. That is how I know that they are "genre defining". The anime community doesn't reach that kind of unanimous consensus without there being a great amount of truth to it. I have seen more then enough to know what makes the shounen genre tick (the 5-10 I mentioned is only talking about the ones not on my list). If you disagree, so be it, but you won't change the clear repetition and cliches that are clearly present in the genre, which you are choosing to ignore for some reason. You can ask anyone who has seen more shounen then me and the vast majority of them will agree with me; the shounen genre is built upon a series of cliches and tropes. More so then other genres. |
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Link_of_Hyrule said: This is what I've been looking for.Have stereotypical plots been done well? Yes. Have stereotypical characters been done well? Yes. This statement contradicts your original statement about battle shounen not being masterpiece worthy, you've seen 20 episodes for each battle shounen, correct? That means you can't form an accurate statement on these shows. Considering you just said stereotypical plots can be done well then this includes battle shounen, yes? Battle shounen contain stereotypical characters, yes? This means they can be done well, thus being able to be called a masterpiece. To sum it up, you generalized a genre, said they can't be masterpieces because they're all the same stereotypical shit, but then said stereotypical things can be done well. I don't get it. Please, correct me if I've missed something. |
BadLuckBeckyFeb 18, 2014 2:57 PM
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YorozuyaGinSan said: SolBlade said: YorozuyaGinSan said: I guess. Only lil' kiddies watch the shonens though. JJBA is a shounen (minus the Part 7 and 8). HAHA That's a good one, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure totally wasn't published in Weekly Shounen Jump for 15 years. You haven't even read it though... #SHOTS FIRED Good point... ouch #Shotstaken. And I did read the first 3 parts, going to start the rest once the Stardust Crusaders anime finishes. Well played, Gin-san. |
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| Jal90, There's a difference between labeling something as filler, and calling it filler as a synonym for bad. He is basically a monster created by the accumulated hatred against humans for years and years. A character we've seen bred for years, and now with worse execution than ever. What is that consequence supposed to mean? An event did not just dissipate into nothingness and actually had an effect, and in turn was affected by something else, like anything would be, but what exactly is the point of that sentence? |
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| I don't like Naruto or Bleach but I can't take someone's opinion seriously if they're judging the WHOLE SERIES from the first 10-20+ episodes. It's one thing if they gave you a meh first impression but c'mon now. It's like watching the first 4-8 episodes of Evangelion and writing it off as a generic mecha with a whiny main character and shitty tsundere as leads. |
judals said: Hell, they can show Gol D. then, and then what? How would that make Hodi, and his goons and the 45 episodes of stalling and nosebleeds anymore relevant? It would just be a needle of importance in a haystack of irrelevance. They're relevant because of the way The New World actually works. The 4 Emperors are the rulers of this part of the world and rules over the countries it contains. If Luffy wants to be on their level, it is necessary for him to have some allies, this is the first Island that he claimed. And all that wouldn't have been possible if he didn't handle the Hodi problems. |
Miketyson555 said: Link_of_Hyrule said: silversaint said: Link_of_Hyrule said: How much screaming and fighting do I need to watch with different characters and different plots to come to the conclusion that screaming and fighting is a cliche that many battle shounens are built upon? I would argue that I have seen more than enough to draw that conclusion. Are there exceptions? Yes. Are exceptions rare? Yes. do you hate screaming an fighting that much? how come you like Fate Zero then? one of its main hooks is the fighting an it has a shit ton of screaming (Berserkers entire dialogue consists of screaming) I don't hate screaming and fighting; I never said that. I am merely pointing out that "screaming and fighting" is one of the tropes that seem to characterize battle shounen. Battle Shounen are extremely formulaic and therefore I don't think any of them are original or different enough to be considered "masterpieces". That exact statement can be applied to basically anything. I could easily just say that almost every mecha is about war and involves robots therefore making them all generic, common and relying on similar tropes which means I won't consider any of them a masterpiece. You could SAY that, and then I would show you a mecha anime like Neon Genesis Evangelion that may be considered a mecha due to, well, giant robots, but it is so, so much more then that. It is a masterpiece because it does not adhere to the stereotypes of the genre. Are there elements of stereotypes in it? Yes, there are elements of stereotypes in everything, but the overall writing of the anime broke out of the mold and accomplished something hat no other anime has before and no anime has accomplished since. |
| The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth |
judals said: Jal90, There's a difference between labeling something as filler, and calling it filler as a synonym for bad. He is basically a monster created by the accumulated hatred against humans for years and years. A character we've seen bred for years, and now with worse execution than ever. What is that consequence supposed to mean? An event did not just dissipate into nothingness and actually had an effect, and in turn was affected by something else, like anything would be, but what exactly is the point of that sentence? There's a difference between labelling something as red, and calling it red as a synonym for blue. Sorry but this just stopped making sense. Glad to see that we have similar opinions on the quality of the arc, I guess. |
| It's hard to not get super biased answers outta this thread. Most people have only watched one, maybe two of the long running ones that are on the list, and some of them are even weighed down by heavy nostalgia too. That being said, HxH 2011 seems most deserving of the title out of what I've seen, but I know next to nothing about One Piece, so my opinion doesn't mean much. |
☕ Truth be told, I'm quite proud of my house blend. To attain my flavor and fragrance, I use five different types of coffee beans. ☕ |
SetsukoHara said: judals said: Hell, they can show Gol D. then, and then what? How would that make Hodi, and his goons and the 45 episodes of stalling and nosebleeds anymore relevant? It would just be a needle of importance in a haystack of irrelevance. They're relevant because of the way The New World actually works. The 4 Emperors are the rulers of this part of the world and rules over the countries it contains. If Luffy wants to be on their level, it is necessary for him to have some allies, this is the first Island that he claimed. And all that wouldn't have been possible if he didn't handle the Hodi problems. You know that's how they try to tie in fillers into the canon in series? Yes they need progress but if we're gonna go by it 'technically' we can have another 1000 episodes excused as "yeah they need this" and give it the same reasoning. Hodi was a weak character, not in power, though he was, but as a villain, and it was a whole arc of him, and a whole arc of Sanji's bleeding that led to this arc. Basically what I'm trying to say, this arc was very, very badly written, even by shonen standards. P.S this thread is over-crowded. |
GrunbeldFeb 18, 2014 2:57 PM
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Link_of_Hyrule said: You could SAY that, and then I would show you a mecha anime like Neon Genesis Evangelion that may be considered a mecha due to, well, giant robots, but it is so, so much more then that. It is a masterpiece because it does not adhere to the stereotypes of the genre. Are there elements of stereotypes in it? Yes, there are elements of stereotypes in everything, but the overall writing of the anime broke out of the mold and accomplished something hat no other anime has before and no anime has accomplished since. My point was if you only watched the first several episodes of NGE along with a portion of episodes from a couple gundam and some other mecha series, you wouldn't be able to say that they aren't essentially just series featuring robots in a war. It's essentially the same concept of what you said about only seeing 10-20 episodes of some battle shounen and them all being screaming during fights. |
Emnay said: Link_of_Hyrule said: This is what I've been looking for.Have stereotypical plots been done well? Yes. Have stereotypical characters been done well? Yes. This statement contradicts your original statement about battle shounen not being masterpiece worthy, you've seen 20 episodes for each battle shounen, correct? That means you can't form an accurate statement on these shows. Considering you just said stereotypical plots can be done well then this includes battle shounen, yes? Battle shounen contain stereotypical characters, yes? This means they can be done well, thus being able to be called a masterpiece. To sum it up, you generalized a genre, said they can't be masterpieces because they're all the same stereotypical shit, but then said stereotypical things can be done well. I don't get it. This is where the subjectivity of the word "masterpiece" comes into play. A "Masterpiece" to me is doing something incredible that nobody has ever done before. Therefore, a stereotypical setup may be done "well", or even "very well", but it is doubtful that it can even be unique or groundbreaking enough to be called a masterpiece? |
| The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth |
Miketyson555 said: Link_of_Hyrule said: You could SAY that, and then I would show you a mecha anime like Neon Genesis Evangelion that may be considered a mecha due to, well, giant robots, but it is so, so much more then that. It is a masterpiece because it does not adhere to the stereotypes of the genre. Are there elements of stereotypes in it? Yes, there are elements of stereotypes in everything, but the overall writing of the anime broke out of the mold and accomplished something hat no other anime has before and no anime has accomplished since. My point was if you only watched the first several episodes of NGE along with a portion of episodes from a couple gundam and some other mecha series, you wouldn't be able to say that they aren't essentially just series featuring robots in a war. It's essentially the same concept of what you said about only seeing 10-20 episodes of some battle shounen and them all being screaming during fights. Haha, are you trying to imply that NARUTO has some sort of epic downward spiral of symbolism that completes itself as a near-perfectly written allegory? Thus forever cementing itself as a "masterpiece"? What I mean by that is: we are talking about a show that literally makes things up as it goes; when the writers started writing it, they didn't write it from beginning to end, they just write what ever story arcs they think the audience will like. I grow tired of watching shows with this kind episodic nature that really don't go anywhere in the grand scheme of things, so why should I have to watch every single story arc of 200+ episode anime to draw a basic generalization? |
| The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth |
Sasugay said: Naruto, fyeah! ^ |
judals said: You know that's how they try to tie in fillers into the canon in series? Yes they need progress but if we're gonna go by it 'technically' we can have another 1000 episodes excused as "yeah they need this" and give it the same reasoning. Hodi was a weak character, not in power, though he was, but as a villain, and it was a whole arc of him, and a whole arc of Sanji's bleeding that led to this arc. Basically what I'm trying to say, this arc was very, very badly written, even by shonen standards. I don't know exactly what we're even arguing about. I didn't say this arc was good or anything, just that it wasn't filler. But if you want to talk about the quality, I'd say this arc wasn't that bad, and ther was actually way more than Sanji bleeding or Hodi. Oda for example put a lot of thought on the topography of this island and how it could even make sense in the world of One Piece. There was also a long flashbacks about the story of the Fishmen that expands the history of the One Piece world. Nevertheless, I thought it was really disapointing especially because of Hodi which was a quite bland character. I also expected something a bit more ambitious from Oda considering the 'racial' problem that was dealt in this arc. |
Link_of_Hyrule said: Haha, are you trying to imply that NARUTO has some sort of epic downward spiral of symbolism that completes itself as a near-perfectly written allegory? Thus forever cementing itself as a "masterpiece"? What I mean by that is: we are talking about a show that literally makes things up as it goes; when the writers started writing it, they didn't write it from beginning to end, they just write what ever story arcs they think the audience will like. I grow tired of watching shows with this kind episodic nature that really don't go anywhere in the grand scheme of things, so why should I have to watch every single story arc of 200+ episode anime to draw a basic generalization? I haven't watched Naruto so no I'm not implying anything about it or any specific series in general for that matter. You don't need to watch 200+ episodes of anything, when did I even say that? The only thing I've pointed out is that you're essentially generalizing EVERY battle shounen (even if you are exaggerating, that's beside the point) as being the same shit despite the fact that it was proven earlier that it clearly isn't true. ie; FMA:B. You've essentially only tried to make fact out of your assumption that every battle shounen is a copy and paste clone of another which doesn't break any generic mold and it isn't true. |
Miketyson555 said: Link_of_Hyrule said: Haha, are you trying to imply that NARUTO has some sort of epic downward spiral of symbolism that completes itself as a near-perfectly written allegory? Thus forever cementing itself as a "masterpiece"? What I mean by that is: we are talking about a show that literally makes things up as it goes; when the writers started writing it, they didn't write it from beginning to end, they just write what ever story arcs they think the audience will like. I grow tired of watching shows with this kind episodic nature that really don't go anywhere in the grand scheme of things, so why should I have to watch every single story arc of 200+ episode anime to draw a basic generalization? I haven't watched Naruto so no I'm not implying anything about it or any specific series in general for that matter. You don't need to watch 200+ episodes of anything, when did I even say that? The only thing I've pointed out is that you're essentially generalizing EVERY battle shounen (even if you are exaggerating, that's beside the point) as being the same shit despite the fact that it was proven earlier that it clearly isn't true. ie; FMA:B. You've essentially only tried to make fact out of your assumption that every battle shounen is a copy and paste clone of another which doesn't break any generic mold and it isn't true. I never said they are copy paste clones or that they are shit. Most of them are actually good, but they are all built upon the same tropes and stereotypes; that is a simple fact. In fact, it is more true with shounen then with any other genre. Naruto was just a random example. |
| The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth |
RedRoseFring said: There's a few anime that I would consider masterpieces, just not any battle shounens.Shrabster said: A show that I would describe as a masterpiece would have to do something that no other show has done (or at least be fairly unique) and/or do what it does extremely well and polished enough to set it above the rest. In my opinion, no battle shounen has or will do this due to their own nature. So, where is my "None" option in the poll? Sooo.......basically nothing is a masterpiece? That's a pretty downcast view to have. |
ShrabsterFeb 18, 2014 3:58 PM
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| If a masterpiece is something without a flaw, then none of the series on the poll is a masterpiece. Disregarding the minor flaws, Chibi-Alice said: One Piece. I know it has it's flaws, but i still think it's a masterpiece. This. One Piece is a masterpiece in it's own way. |
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| Setsu, I know I just thought I made it clear what I mean by felt like filler. Well for 50 episodes, i'd say the bad proportion was very high. The FI details are not exactly impressive either, they are no skypiea for sure, and I hoped it'd be more than that but then again it's the hype's fault for making me overthink it. |
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| One Piece. i dont watch the anime but i do read the manga and for the shounen genre,one piece is the closest one i would considered master piece. |
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| HxH & One Piece are the only ones worthy. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Forgetfulness said: It's a glorious poll. No love for Reborn!? :c Come on, even Fairy Tail and Bleach have at least 3 votes :/ I know people liked Katekyo but rarely do people think it's a masterpiece or better than the rest of the shounens. |
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