Kaguya-sama wa Kokurasetai?: Tensai-tachi no Renai Zunousen Episode 11 Discussion

FMmatron said:
The drama is definitely not my cup of tea, even tho directing and execution were top notch as usual. I mean the whole scenario played out like some chunii fantasy of someone who likes to think of himself as the silent hero xD

Nonetheless loved this uplifting episode and it had some very quoteable lines xD

mosam00 said:


Lol what a load of bullshit. I hate fans like you who act like you're above stuff like this in anime. Firstly, it's not even like Ishigami was going out of his way to help her, he just overheard her boyfriend by accident and decided to confront him about it, then the guy provoked him into beating him up by showing those videos. Ishigami didnt have any weird sort of delusions or saviour complex, this stuff happened by accident when he overheard him first. And secondly, Ishigami feeling bad about people being treated poorly like Iino and wanting to help them doesnt make him some sort of deluded Chuuni, it just makes him a good person lmao? While he hates everyone else, he doesn't act like he's entitled to them being nice to him (even though he is tbh), he just tries to avoid them. Idk what you're trying to imply here about these delusions but its a load of crap.

FMmatron said:


I just genuinely didn't like how some things were portrayed or how heavy-handed it was and stated how I perceived it. It isn't about whether Ishigami had good intentions, I didn't even say anything about him

"I mean the whole scenario played out like some chunii fantasy of someone who likes to think of himself as the silent hero xD"

Keywords are

played out like a chuunii fantasy scenario

To elaborate on that


It's about the fact that he got punished for doing something seemingly selfless and that he had to rot alone for not telling the truth. Most people wouldn't suck it up, but he stubbornly did while dwelling in self pity. Miracously big brain Shirogane pulled up. At last someone who said the liberating truth, telling the tragic silent hero that he didn't suffer for naught.

So yeah, it's pretty much a depiction of a misunderstood loner facing the evil popular guy followed by months  of misery porn till the noble saviour bringing the redemption arrived. Not only that, in a twisted way Ishigami also kept the moral high ground till that point. I mean he was petty and to be fair he even acknowledged it, yet the narrative sold him us as winner in the end. He even got to say the "Go to hell dumbass" ( I liked that part because it showed that he has grown and doesn't give a fuck anymore) which was supposed to give the viewer additional satisfaction. Of course it was Shirogane who encouraged him to that.

Overall it played out pretty conveniently and I guess it's supposed to be some sort of wish fulfillment and considering the Ishigami crowd who's labeling him as our guy I feel strenghtened in my believe.

mosam00 said:


I don't see the issue with Ishigami keeping the moral high ground? What exactly did he do wrong in that scenario?

How did it play out conveniently? How else could it have played out?

What even do you mean by the 'Ishigami crowd'? And how is it wish fulfiment? Yea, Ishigami is one of the more popular characters, but that's cuz he's funny, he was popular even before this backstory.

And even if it is wish fulfilment (which I don't see how), so what lol? Why are you acting like you're so above wish fulfilment in anime? Anime doesn't need to be boring and realistic all the time.

FMmatron said:



To me it's just hilarious how Ishigami kept silent about the truth, but on the other hand wasn't able to apologize, even tho it was also his fault for the whole situation to escalate.

Sure the popular normie added oil to the fire when he said he would forgive Ishigami after an apologize and it's not like I'm not able to understand how much of a provocation it must've been for a 15 year old(?) boy. Here's the thing, tho, I thought it was added to justify Ishigami completely shutting down. You see, all that so that Ishigami can still be seen as the good guy while he shut himself in his room to rage and to feel self pity. Imo he behaved like a loser in that situation.

Being petty like that is usually nothing to glorify, yet this series kinda did or at least it tried to evoke a similar sensation by presenting him us as victim who got punished for trying to be nice. Ishigami was stubborn and still won in his way since the couple broke up. I guess it's supposed to give satisfaction to fellow underdogs who can relate. Now to be fair his actions left an impact and resulted in the break up. You gotta hand that to him. Still how events were presented left a sour taste and I didn't like the message I took for myself. Essentially Ishigami gave up after things became tough. Taking that into account it's extremely convenient how everything played out with the appearance of Shirogane.



>Yea, Ishigami is one of the more popular characters, but that's cuz he's funny,

Oh my sweet summer child xD Yeah, he's funny and I like him too, but there's more to him. It's true, already before the flashback he was popular. He appealed to a certain group of people for being that weird, gloomy, gamer-otaku. He rather plays games than to study and he would accept the bad grade. He's jealous because he can't get a gf and so on. The stuff you associate with your average loser/loner. No surprise that character has fans for being so relatable, hence the Ishigami crowd who labeled him as "our guy". It's almost like a cult worshipping him. Episodes like this one here elevated him to the next level and Ishigami became their God.

With that knowledge you still don't think that this was finest wish fulfillment for those who can relate to him or even went through something similar?

I love Hajime no Ippo and One Piece which have a lot of wish fulfillment. This episode just had some aspects that I didn't feel and I pointed that out. Maybe I wasn't in the right mood and I would've enjoyed it more on another day. Or maybe not.

mosam00 said:


How is it Ishigami's fault though that the situation escalated? That guy was showing him revenge p*rn lmao? I don't see how him locking himself in his room was bad either? Wasnt that partly because the school said he can't come back until he apologises? Also lol, why would he say sorry to that guy? That guy was completely in the wrong lmao, true Ishigami punched him, but he was provoked into it lmao? And a guy who cheats and plans to use revenge p*rn deserves to be beaten up lmao. You say he gave up, what exactly should he have done instead lmao? The whole school was against him.

I don't see this appeal about him being a weird gloomy, gamer-otaku either, hes an anime character so obviously everything is exaggerated, but it's not like he's some raging women hater lmao, sure he hates seeing couples, but I think that's the case for most single people lmao, it's not like he actually hates girls, he's fine with everyone in the student council, obviously there are clashes for comedy but he also obviously cares about them.

Even if it is wish fulfilment, I don't see how that's such a bad thing, this is more entertaining to me to watch than something where Ishigami continues to be hated by everyone (which tbh he still is annoyingly). This sort of wish fulfilment just seems like a normal underdog story, it's not much different to wish fulfilment in One Piece tbh or in Haikyuu with Karasuno being underdogs and overcoming teams much better than them. I don't really see the issue with this wish fulfilment?

Fafette said:


So, about this episode's cons :

-Maybe if they provided Ishigami more development before this episode, I would've been able to care a bit more. Before for now why I could relate to him which helped me sympathize, and while I found him pretty funny, I just never managed to consider that I know him as a person compared to Kaguya, Miyuki and Chika. That's too bad. The problem is probably coming from me since I seem to be the only one not to consider Ishigami the "best girl", but I thought it was still important to mention
-It was forced... So forced... It's like they slammed my face with a sign where there's written in blood red letters "LOOK ! THESE PEOPLE ARE MEAN ! THEY'RE BULLYING ISHIGAMI ! HE IS A GOOD GUY ! HEAVY FEELS ! HEAVY FEEEEEEELS !!! Are you feeling it already ?" Andandandand come on just a little bit of subtlety wouldn't be too much to ask, right ? Riiiight ?
-Why was Ishigami isolated to start with ? Because I perfectly understand why he became isolated after that incident, but before ? Why was he isolated ? Because he likes it ? That's a lie, the entire ending proves it. So why ? I need an answer. I'll wait. Forever if I need to. But I'll wait.
-Similar thing, it escalated way too quickly. In real life, it is a succession of very little things that gradually become bigger things. Unless two things : there was an issue with the victim before, or, the victim disappointed everyone because they thought the victim was better than that. The rest of the time, bullying happens progressively. In Ishigami's case, it felt way too abrupt. I don't even know how to explain it correctly because in a way it feels like this is just how it should happen given the situation but no. There's something that just doesn't work.
-The moral is too naive. No, popular people aren't all nice. That's an utopia I'd love to see come to reality, but generally they're just not nice. Of course there are nice people in the bunch, fortunately, but no overall it's not Carebear World. And furthermore, once you're isolated it takes way more than that for people to accept you as an actual person with actual feelings and here it really doesn't make me laugh because it is something way too many people suffer from, it shouldn't be disregarded by saying "But look, there are so many nice and friendly people out there, just open yourself to them and you'll see :D" Thanks for the advice but it doesn't work like that.

Dazel1412 said:


This is all just my perspective/opinion, so take it as you will...

"Why was Ishigami isolated to start with?"
From what I can tell, Ishigami was always very introverted and because of that people didn't really interact with him. That's why he describes his (former) friendship with Kyoko, because she was one of the first people to ever approach him and be genuinely nice to him, unlike others who most likely avoided him because of his stand-offish nature. And as seen in his backstory, he already felt uncomfortable whenever he saw couples so he probably also avoided people because of that.

About it being forced...
To be fair, his isolation and others' hatred of him has been built up since Kaguya helped him study for exams (there were those two girls in the library who were whispering about him and worrying for Kaguya, plus Ishigami didn't want his association with her to taint her image). Anyone who wasn't in the Student Council or good friends with members of the Student Council (especially female students) disliked him because of the incident. Osaragi states that all of the first-year girls loathe Ishigami--at the sports festival, while it did come on a bit suddenly, I think it was valid. We've only ever seen Ishigami's interactions with the Student Council, so we don't really know his perspective when it comes to the other students and how they treat him. Plus, Kyoke was visiting the sports festival, so her coming back would most definitely bring up their dislike for him even more.

"It escalated way too quickly"
Well Ishigami was already isolated from his peers beforehand, so even if they were never mean to him, they never bothered to interact with/get to know him, so they would never have a reason to believe him even if he explained everything he saw (especially since Ogino was popular in school). From his classmates' perspective, he beat Ogino up because Ishigami was supposedly stalking and in love with Kyoko. There was no hint of people bullying him before the incident, only after. No one ever got to know Ishigami as a person or his side of the story. All they saw was him, the pessimistic loner, beat up the popular kid supposedly out of jealously. That's all they saw and knew, so that was what they judged him based off of.

"The moral is too naive"
The moral wasn't necessarily saying that "popular people are all nice"--but rather that some people are nicer than you give them credit for. Ishigami just talked about it in context of the "normies" (popular kids) because he'd never associated himself as/never truly got to know anyone of that status. The lesson Ishigami learned/remembered here was that he was too afraid to face what was in front of him, and he learned to overcome that fear (f.e. his past and how afraid he was of Kyoko after everything) and see people for who they truly are. That group of popular kids just happened to be super nice and friendly--they'd already accepted him, but Ishigami himself was the one not sure. He used to think of a lot of people were one thing before he truly got to know them. And in terms of the cheer team, they'd already accepted him--Ishigami just didn't know how he felt about that, because of how socially cut-off he was. He even said before Kyoko showed up that that was the most fun he'd ever had at the sports festival before. It was about him learning to be just a bit more optimistic, to not let his past define his future or who he was. It's about him opening up, like you said, but it wasn't just about seeing people from a different perspective--it was also about him taking the steps forward to improve himself and his life, because his negative perspective had just had a negative impact on himself/his life.

To me, Ishigami is such a fascinating character. I highly recommend reading the manga, as Ishigami gets a whole lot of development, especially after the sports festival. He gets his own romance (sort of love triangle) subplot that was just as, if not more emotional than the sports festival flashbacks (IMO). You see the slow shift in his perspective of stuff like friendships, love, couples/relationships, etc. His subplot was a very long slow-burn, but (without spoiling it) the pay off was very emotional and worth it.

removed-user said:
Still the best episode of 2020 not even close.

-Stray said:
It was so close to having the perfect adaptation but they removed Kaguya’s scenes, first her being the most involved in wanting to find out what happened with Ishigami during his expulsion, she was actually the one who kept on bringing it up to the stuco when it came to Ishigami, and then they also removed her last bit when she was planning to sadistically tell Ootomo the truth and wonder what kind of face she’d make when she does, Also her being the step in having Ootomo’s bf kicked out, those 3 parts were supposed to have a helping hand when it came to Kaguya and Ishigami’s supposedly weird brother sister relationship. Oh well... other than that it was an ok episode.

Anyways, read the manga!

Niansuh said:

the statement still stands

civonad said:

chill with aoty, if attack on titan final season's out its not close