| I have nothing against Vtubers themselves, but I despise what the profession itself represents: a reinforcement of the kind of world-view where parasocial relationships eclipse real-world relationships in value. I won't try and speak for the entire Vtuber community...but I would guess that a great many of them, perhaps even the majority, are not only unaware of the dangers of parasocial relationships, but are unwilling to admit that such dangers even exist. Popular Vtubers tend to act as unhealthy support systems for those who struggle to interact in real life social situations. Vtubers are comfortable escapist fantasies who provide the illusion of interaction, while the barriers imposed on them by the nature of the internet preclude any attempts at genuine connection. Prolonged exposure to these environments only serves to worsen the vulnerable individual's social skills, since they are neither acknowledged in any meaningful way by the streamer, or involved in the streamer's life the way a natural friendship would allow for. Internet culture as a whole is incredibly dangerous and toxic for those vulnerable segments of the population who struggle with social situations, and even for those who are average with them. However I would argue that Vtubing presents a very specific danger in that it is extremely innocuous with respect to how it negatively affects one's life. With social media for example, it's easy to tell when you have a problem with posting too much or getting involved too deeply with arguments on Twitter or what-have-you. But if you're a fan of Vtubers, you often don't realize the damage that's being done until you're too deep in the rabbit hole to care. Not only for the fans either, but for the Vtubers themselves. Being a purely internet personality adds yet another barrier around yourself that keeps people from getting close to you, causing your own social skills to stagnate as you spend the majority of your time building up a false persona. On the one hand, anonymity allows you to express more of your feelings honestly...but being bound by the strict rules of Vshojo or Hololive or any other agency, you are unable to fully take advantage of the anonymity the internet would otherwise provide you. It's the worst of both possible worlds. Now, it's true that not everyone who watches V-tubers is in this vulnerable state, and I don't want to make hasty generalizations. But I would venture a guess and say the vast majority are. Because watching a Vtuber to satisfy that basic human need for affirmation is far easier and far more initially rewarding than developing a relationship naturally over a long period of time with someone in the real world. It also carries far less risk of rejection, and if there's one thing shy introverts struggle with, it's being rejected by others. Obviously Vtubers are people too and need to survive, so I'm not saying we should disband Hololive and get rid of all V-tubers. The trouble is that, the way our current society is structured, technology and the internet are so interconnected to our lives that finding genuine connection outside of it has become obsolete. In bringing everyone on the planet within a text-message's reach of each other, we have inadvertently wedged even more distance between ourselves. We have become desensitized to the pleasure of real-world connections, only chasing after that next brief high of happiness when someone likes your post on Facebook, for example, or replies to your Twitter tweet. Technology is an excellent servant, but a terrible master. |
| 90% of the the internet's problems come from people treating fictional people like they're real and real people like they're fictional. |
| I never really had time to watch them, both their streams and clips. Nevertheless I like (to an extent, more on this later) Vtubers. I almost never watch them but I'm subscribed to a ton of them lol. Hololive's talents I enjoy because a lot of them seem like they're being genuine (of course, this isn't without some acting to a degree) and are pretty fun to watch, as well as some of Nijisanji's talents. The thing I don't like about Vtubers generally (and I've seen this with the rise of indie ones and company ones) is how they try to act like "anime girls" and use that as an appeal which makes me cringe so goddamn hard, with their high pitched voices and everything, especially the English speaking ones. They aren't being genuine at all and only act as waifubait, and I hate that. Made even worse by some trying to be "subversive" (in this case, "unseiso" as they call it), where they pretend to be into "weird" and "kinky" things and say "shocking" or "gross" things and jokes and stuff-- it just doesn't work unless you're genuinely into this stuff and understand it, which most of them don't at all. The only ones that kinda work for me in this regard are Luto Araka and Akai Haato. Where I have a huge problem lies in the community, because oh my God I fucking hate them. I grew to really hate the Vtuber community, a lot of them are just so obnoxious and unfunny, just shut the fuck up. The ones I'm most annoyed by are those who post reaction images under lewd artwork on Twitter-- you're not funny! I used to retweet artwork with reaction images and I'm so glad I stopped. Then there are all the borderline clickbait clip videos with cancer ass comments thinking said mildly funny or "lewd" interaction in the clip is the funniest and most "YABAI" shit they've ever seen. Fuuuck. Overall I'm fine with their existence and I do watch some on rare occasions and I like some of the talents, Hololive and Nijisanji in particular but I can totally understand those who dislike them as there are a lot of things I dislike about Vtubers in general as well and the community is just unbearable. Anyways my favorites are Ninomae Ina'nis (she's chill and I think she's fucking great), Petra Gurin (the exception to the high pitched waifubait thing, I think she's genuinely cute), and Oren-chan (a dude with a voice changer lol). Anyways #2 although I'm not well versed in Vtubers at least the surplus of NSFW art is undeniably great thanks to many of them having really excellent designs. Yet another large franchise which artists provide a massive supply of high quality lewd artwork of! This is a win for art collectors like me! |
 |
| the only thing I know about them is that they sing and some of their songs are amazing, listened to some myself I know some small details here and there but that it |
    |
| I mean, the most recent hololive video I saw posted tonight had over 11k views in under 13 mins... what the hell am I supposed to think about that? I'm sure I would love Vtubers but there is just too much hype surrounding them. They don't calm me down. I need a more chill energy like from classic anime. |
| I CELEBRATE myself, And what I assume you shall assume, For every atom belonging to me as good belongs to you. |
MadHobbit2 said: I have nothing against Vtubers themselves, but I despise what the profession itself represents: a reinforcement of the kind of world-view where parasocial relationships eclipse real-world relationships in value. I won't try and speak for the entire Vtuber community...but I would guess that a great many of them, perhaps even the majority, are not only unaware of the dangers of parasocial relationships, but are unwilling to admit that such dangers even exist. Popular Vtubers tend to act as unhealthy support systems for those who struggle to interact in real life social situations. Vtubers are comfortable escapist fantasies who provide the illusion of interaction, while the barriers imposed on them by the nature of the internet preclude any attempts at genuine connection. Prolonged exposure to these environments only serves to worsen the vulnerable individual's social skills, since they are neither acknowledged in any meaningful way by the streamer, or involved in the streamer's life the way a natural friendship would allow for. Internet culture as a whole is incredibly dangerous and toxic for those vulnerable segments of the population who struggle with social situations, and even for those who are average with them. However I would argue that Vtubing presents a very specific danger in that it is extremely innocuous with respect to how it negatively affects one's life. With social media for example, it's easy to tell when you have a problem with posting too much or getting involved too deeply with arguments on Twitter or what-have-you. But if you're a fan of Vtubers, you often don't realize the damage that's being done until you're too deep in the rabbit hole to care. Not only for the fans either, but for the Vtubers themselves. Being a purely internet personality adds yet another barrier around yourself that keeps people from getting close to you, causing your own social skills to stagnate as you spend the majority of your time building up a false persona. On the one hand, anonymity allows you to express more of your feelings honestly...but being bound by the strict rules of Vshojo or Hololive or any other agency, you are unable to fully take advantage of the anonymity the internet would otherwise provide you. It's the worst of both possible worlds. Now, it's true that not everyone who watches V-tubers is in this vulnerable state, and I don't want to make hasty generalizations. But I would venture a guess and say the vast majority are. Because watching a Vtuber to satisfy that basic human need for affirmation is far easier and far more initially rewarding than developing a relationship naturally over a long period of time with someone in the real world. It also carries far less risk of rejection, and if there's one thing shy introverts struggle with, it's being rejected by others. Obviously Vtubers are people too and need to survive, so I'm not saying we should disband Hololive and get rid of all V-tubers. The trouble is that, the way our current society is structured, technology and the internet are so interconnected to our lives that finding genuine connection outside of it has become obsolete. In bringing everyone on the planet within a text-message's reach of each other, we have inadvertently wedged even more distance between ourselves. We have become desensitized to the pleasure of real-world connections, only chasing after that next brief high of happiness when someone likes your post on Facebook, for example, or replies to your Twitter tweet. Technology is an excellent servant, but a terrible master. Internet personalities have been around since youtube has existed. I wonder why people only started to care about "parasocial relationships" when vtubers started to get popular? It feels like something spread by people who don't like the new competition. |
 |
Nutella71 said: Maybe you can try to watch some zatsudan a.k.a. chatting streams from various vtubers. They're the most chill stream types where the vtuber just talks about different topics (apart from cooking streams imo, I sometimes put a cooking stream in the background when I'm working on something else and take a peek once in a while to see what they made). Some vtubers even have their content to be mostly chatting streams and they usually talk slowly and eloquently. Might be cool then, I haven't really had the chance to find new ones. |
| I CELEBRATE myself, And what I assume you shall assume, For every atom belonging to me as good belongs to you. |
Nutella71 said: Thanks I'll check them out I mean I do already sub to Mori Calliope hahahWell I can give you a few suggestions if you want. Off the top of my head, Aia from NijisanjiEN does pretty chill drawing zatsudans. And from HolostarsEN, Shinri (recently debuted) and Vesper do almost only chatting streams. Vtubers from the JP side also do frequent zatsus as well. |
| I CELEBRATE myself, And what I assume you shall assume, For every atom belonging to me as good belongs to you. |
| vtuber music, such as big iron is kinor or mori mori9s raps. or even a jubun woi cover |
| There actually exists a discord that is made up of VTubers that banned from the VTuber thread on Kiwifarms (Not attacking VTubers, but VTubers talking about Vtube shit). They had 16 different types of lewd discord channels. |
Mao said: If you have to shit, shit! If you have to fart, fart!  |
| Pippa pipkin is the best vtuber and the only one I unironically watch |
 |
| I don't know a lot about the topic, but it seems there are degrees of v-tubers. I think an avatar is a good idea for people who want to stream with some sort of visual representation, but don't necessarily want to show their face. Though oftentimes the characters' movements look so stilted and awkward to the point of it being distracting when viewed alongside gameplay and such. The other side seems more like roleplaying, where the person behind the avatar takes on a persona and hams it up as a character. I'm not really into that and find many clips that I have seen very grating. I like what CodeMiko does with various 3D characters and such, her ideas are creative and fun while still being herself. |
| The first one that came to my attention was Projekt Melody. I thought her design was very pretty and the idea was not that surprising. A few others have crossed my screen before but I do not watch them it just seems dumb. But I don't understand the controversy that much- you have these cute anime girls who are voiced by digitally enhanced sound, and they interact with people in real time so it's like live anime. ...I caught on to the whole Put-the-coin-in-the-slot thing pretty fast- but it makes sense. Yet the criticism here seems really harsh. I sort of expected them to be popular on a site like this. I dunno.. |
| I watch them every now and again, but I don't spend any time in the vtuber community. |
 |
| It just depends on their behaviour, I don't like to 'childish' behaviour and especially over the top screaming and hyper active stuff. |
| "Most people talk about killing time while time is killing them. You can outrun everything but you'll never outrun the hands of time. Use it wisely before you expire". - Toonen1988 "Cyberpunk show us the dark side, reveiling the dangerous side effects of the drug of futurism." - Indigo Gaming |
| I only watch some clips now, i used to be more into it but not anymore But anyway hating on entire vtuber community just because there's a lot of annoying people is just silly. By that same line of thought, you shouldn't want to associate with the anime community either. |
 |
| I was obsessed with them until I wasn't. Got bored of their content real quick once I realized I am not their target demographic. |
"The Yang Sword cuts what I want to cut." "Look, it's my victory again." |
Narmy said: Mainly because the concept of parasocial relationships itself has only just recently become relevant (i.e. concerning). While internet personalities existed before Vtubers, the internet itself was in a vastly different state than it is today. The interaction between previous personalities and their fans was almost always 1-sided, and almost never in real-time. Whether or not a Vtuber actually reads your comment is irrelevant, since in the mind of the sender, the Vtuber has already done so by the mere fact that your text has appeared in the chat. On the other hand, when someone interacts with an internet personality via delayed communication such as YouTube comments, it doesn't emulate a real conversation accurately enough to form that illusion of connection. MadHobbit2 said: I have nothing against Vtubers themselves, but I despise what the profession itself represents: a reinforcement of the kind of world-view where parasocial relationships eclipse real-world relationships in value. I won't try and speak for the entire Vtuber community...but I would guess that a great many of them, perhaps even the majority, are not only unaware of the dangers of parasocial relationships, but are unwilling to admit that such dangers even exist. Popular Vtubers tend to act as unhealthy support systems for those who struggle to interact in real life social situations. Vtubers are comfortable escapist fantasies who provide the illusion of interaction, while the barriers imposed on them by the nature of the internet preclude any attempts at genuine connection. Prolonged exposure to these environments only serves to worsen the vulnerable individual's social skills, since they are neither acknowledged in any meaningful way by the streamer, or involved in the streamer's life the way a natural friendship would allow for. Internet culture as a whole is incredibly dangerous and toxic for those vulnerable segments of the population who struggle with social situations, and even for those who are average with them. However I would argue that Vtubing presents a very specific danger in that it is extremely innocuous with respect to how it negatively affects one's life. With social media for example, it's easy to tell when you have a problem with posting too much or getting involved too deeply with arguments on Twitter or what-have-you. But if you're a fan of Vtubers, you often don't realize the damage that's being done until you're too deep in the rabbit hole to care. Not only for the fans either, but for the Vtubers themselves. Being a purely internet personality adds yet another barrier around yourself that keeps people from getting close to you, causing your own social skills to stagnate as you spend the majority of your time building up a false persona. On the one hand, anonymity allows you to express more of your feelings honestly...but being bound by the strict rules of Vshojo or Hololive or any other agency, you are unable to fully take advantage of the anonymity the internet would otherwise provide you. It's the worst of both possible worlds. Now, it's true that not everyone who watches V-tubers is in this vulnerable state, and I don't want to make hasty generalizations. But I would venture a guess and say the vast majority are. Because watching a Vtuber to satisfy that basic human need for affirmation is far easier and far more initially rewarding than developing a relationship naturally over a long period of time with someone in the real world. It also carries far less risk of rejection, and if there's one thing shy introverts struggle with, it's being rejected by others. Obviously Vtubers are people too and need to survive, so I'm not saying we should disband Hololive and get rid of all V-tubers. The trouble is that, the way our current society is structured, technology and the internet are so interconnected to our lives that finding genuine connection outside of it has become obsolete. In bringing everyone on the planet within a text-message's reach of each other, we have inadvertently wedged even more distance between ourselves. We have become desensitized to the pleasure of real-world connections, only chasing after that next brief high of happiness when someone likes your post on Facebook, for example, or replies to your Twitter tweet. Technology is an excellent servant, but a terrible master. Internet personalities have been around since youtube has existed. I wonder why people only started to care about "parasocial relationships" when vtubers started to get popular? It feels like something spread by people who don't like the new competition. |
| 90% of the the internet's problems come from people treating fictional people like they're real and real people like they're fictional. |
yuurei_tokyo said: I'm chill with normal youtubers using an avatar for privacy reasons or whatever, but vtubers who put on a fake persona (especially if they try to act like anime characters) are incredibly stupid. Yeah pretty much my exact thoughts. I like the clips of them saying bad words that they encounter while playing GTA5 though. |
 |
XiaXueYi said: I cannot remember ever having a good experience with a vtuber fan. Who hurt you son. I’ve joined like 2 vtuber discords and they are like some of the liveliest and friendliest online folks I know. |
 |
| I personally don’t really mind about vtubers, they’re doing their own thing. |
 "You fought to the end. You survived. That's why you're here now. I think that's something you should be more proud of." - Vladilena Milizé |
XiaXueYi said: On discord, they always talk about how they are addicted to masturbating and how they jerk off daily to hololive. In the past I was tolerant towards it but after a while I realized most of the people who I hung out with (and were big vtuber fans to the point it made up their whole personality) were just awful and disgusting. The thing is the people I knew were one of the better ones, Ive seen even worse since then. So yeah I dont seek them out because I dont want to interact, when I see someone be interested in vtubers its just a red flag for me.where are you meeting these people and how do you greet them? I never had an issue myself lol, they're fun at conventions XiaXueYi said: No, I tried watching some of it, its not entertaining.you should take a look at Hololive's online anime series, lots of good running gags. They have great music too,especially Suisei. |
|
| I'm indifferent to them. I'll watch Mori Calliope or Ouro Kronii on occasion if one of their videos happens to pique my interest. Even then, I rarely watch the entire video. My issue is that a lot of Vtuber videos are just way too long. With Mori, I like her music more than her streams. |
Meusnier said: Desolated said: @Meusnier Waaaa waaa modern art sucks!! Entertainment centuries ago is much better!! You know what? Entertainment is entertainment, and it's fucking subjective, the only thing that at is objective about it the amount of material needed to produce such entertainment. Go cry me a river. Please, your pitiful videos do not qualify as modern—the first word that you do not understand in this post—art (sic), and when it comes to entertainment of the past, it was not about mindless blabber, but social games like Pharaoh, "sports"—because the concept of sports did not exist at the time—like jeu de paume, elegant games like diabolo. Children used to play with magic lanterns, it was something else than glorified gambling like Genshin Impact that will never lead anyone to write a page like Proust... Your enjoyment or art is indeed subjective, but the quality of art is not. In other words, you can—but you need good faith for that, something a gulag apologist is incapable of—recognise the value of something that you do not "like" or "enjoy." The very idea that good art should provoke a positive emotional response is already regressive. Is that so hard to understand for your crude soul? 'Tis too easy to hide against pseudo-subjectivism—that would make all discussions pointless—whiles you simply cannot fathom what objective criteria enter in the appreciation of an artwork. In a word, and as usual with you: Desolated said: Different people likes different things. Who knows if what you like isn't liked by others? And stupid people like stupid things. If an old man's favourite anime is Lucky Star, I will have doubts about his intellectual maturity. Desolated said: Unrelated but, as someone who put a lot of effort in producing high pitched voice, all the negative comments about it being "fake" somewhat annoys me because it reminds me of the deep voice I produce without all those efforts that I hate. The world does not revolve around you, their voices are fake because they are not natural (dictionary definition); this is not how Japanese women speak, no matter how high-pitched their voices are. It is as stupid as if an average man was trying to speak like Miles Davis. Just listen to this video where a voice actress and Suisei speak, you see that even the "new" voice of Suisei sounds odd in comparison: Bro I know like 2 local scholars and high flyers who like Lucky Star and Yuru Camp. Your silly judgmental opinions are invalid and as shallow as your mind. If you're not trolling then honest GSH lmao Maybe take your own opinion of "world does not revolve around you" and stop posting cringe lmao, this poop take is just as bad as the average Twittard's. |
XiaXueYiMay 18, 2023 10:55 PM
| The only V Tuber I ever cared for, was Kizuna Ai. And even that was because she was fucking revolutionary in 2017. |
 |
XiaXueYi said: Narmy said: bro how do you watch Shuba and not realise the rest have their own "varied content". Most of them have more than 500k subs each for a reasonEnglish vtubers are 100% cancer but I like some Japanese vtubers. My favorite is Oozora Subaru since she does varied content instead of just Apex/Minecraft/meme games like a lot of others. Do any others do weekly anime watchalongs? |
|
| They're OK, never really watched any. But it's funny seeing them swear in broken English or talking about lewd figures of them that are made. |
| "Well, she's flatter than a pancake" -Mimi Alpacas |
| My opinion on vtubers is stretching both middle fingers.. |
 |
| The ones that are just acting how they would act if they weren't using an avatar I am mostly okay with..........it's the really popular ones I dislike. The ones playing a character like the Vshojo lot, Hololive etc, or indie Vtubers like Shylily. These Vtubers are unbearable. They have the behaviour of a child, the emotional well being of a child and they even talk childish. I find it disturbing that any adult can find entertainment in this. It's even more disturbing that all of these types of Vtubers merch and art seems to center around lewdness. These types of Vtubers just come across as pedo bait. The communities of these types of vtubers are weird, gross and come across so socially abnormal that you end up wanting absolutely nothing to do with them. I quickly got out as soon as I saw how weird it all was. If you stick around and find yourself comfortable constantly surrounding yourself with these things, then something is very off with you. |
XiaXueYi said: Meusnier said: Bad would be an understatement, but the V-tubers fanatics are even worse—if possible—than those fellows who hide behind ugly, awkwardly moving avatars to say—with a fake high-pitched voice—more mind-numbing things than an average MAL thread contains. It is said that Boulez died of a heart attack after listening to a V-tuber "song." I can't really see why you would link a thread of people talking about a popular vtuber's graduation and then call them "fanatic" when I see nothing but people being sad for her leaving. There is no link or connection with fanaticism whatsoever lol. This is really no different from toxic normies calling us weebs "fanatic" when they don't understand anime. Ironic when weebs judge other weebs here. I would gladly explain if I were not certain that it would fly way over your head. Look at your behaviour, quoting everyone in the thread in a laughable attempt to spread your V-religion, you are closer to a fanatic than you think. Those so-called "normies" are right though for most anime fans (a shortened form of "fanatic" FYI) are true to the cliché: dirty, loud, stupid, and crassly ignorant about everything including their own medium of predilection. In a word, people like you. XiaXueYi said: Meusnier said: Please, your pitiful videos do not qualify as modern—the first word that you do not understand in this post—art (sic), and when it comes to entertainment of the past, it was not about mindless blabber, but social games like Pharaoh, "sports"—because the concept of sports did not exist at the time—like jeu de paume, elegant games like diabolo. Children used to play with magic lanterns, it was something else than glorified gambling like Genshin Impact that will never lead anyone to write a page like Proust... Your enjoyment or art is indeed subjective, but the quality of art is not. In other words, you can—but you need good faith for that, something a gulag apologist is incapable of—recognise the value of something that you do not "like" or "enjoy." The very idea that good art should provoke a positive emotional response is already regressive. Is that so hard to understand for your crude soul? 'Tis too easy to hide against pseudo-subjectivism—that would make all discussions pointless—whiles you simply cannot fathom what objective criteria enter in the appreciation of an artwork. In a word, and as usual with you: And stupid people like stupid things. If an old man's favourite anime is Lucky Star, I will have doubts about his intellectual maturity. The world does not revolve around you, their voices are fake because they are not natural (dictionary definition); this is not how Japanese women speak, no matter how high-pitched their voices are. It is as stupid as if an average man was trying to speak like Miles Davis. Just listen to this video where a voice actress and Suisei speak, you see that even the "new" voice of Suisei sounds odd in comparison: Bro I know like 2 local scholars and high flyers who like Lucky Star and Yuru Camp. Your silly judgmental opinions are invalid and as shallow as your mind. If you're not trolling then honest GSH lmao Maybe take your own opinion of "world does not revolve around you" and stop posting cringe lmao, this poop take is just as bad as the average Twittard's. Pitiful wall of projection. Who are you? I am not your "bro," dude. You know two pedophiles who masturbate on quantum mechanics (or gender theory...) during the day? And I should care about it because?... Anecdotes are worthless. How much time did it take you to write this post? Probably not more than 10 seconds, and what have you brought besides your Memenglish? Nothing of value in this post, just childish insults that are perhaps good for your Twitter buddies, but will just make you appear for who are you: a twittidiot who cannot argue about anything... |
| the one good thing about these forums is that sometimes people post some copypasta worthy stuff |
|
| I think Vtubers are the pinnacle of this era toxicity. |
| Location: Turin, Italy Hobby: Music, karate, manga Favourite food: Hey, why are still interested in my stuff? |
Meusnier said: Looking at all your posts’ content I would say I have better time spent with the average poster than a 100% certified troll lmao, but whatever floats your ふね broXiaXueYi said: I can't really see why you would link a thread of people talking about a popular vtuber's graduation and then call them "fanatic" when I see nothing but people being sad for her leaving. There is no link or connection with fanaticism whatsoever lol. This is really no different from toxic normies calling us weebs "fanatic" when they don't understand anime. Ironic when weebs judge other weebs here. I would gladly explain if I were not certain that it would fly way over your head. Look at your behaviour, quoting everyone in the thread in a laughable attempt to spread your V-religion, you are closer to a fanatic than you think. Those so-called "normies" are right though for most anime fans (a shortened form of "fanatic" FYI) are true to the cliché: dirty, loud, stupid, and crassly ignorant about everything including their own medium of predilection. In a word, people like you. XiaXueYi said: Bro I know like 2 local scholars and high flyers who like Lucky Star and Yuru Camp. Your silly judgmental opinions are invalid and as shallow as your mind. If you're not trolling then honest GSH lmao Maybe take your own opinion of "world does not revolve around you" and stop posting cringe lmao, this poop take is just as bad as the average Twittard's. Pitiful wall of projection. Who are you? I am not your "bro," dude. You know two pedophiles who masturbate on quantum mechanics (or gender theory...) during the day? And I should care about it because?... Anecdotes are worthless. How much time did it take you to write this post? Probably not more than 10 seconds, and what have you brought besides your Memenglish? Nothing of value in this post, just childish insults that are perhaps good for your Twitter buddies, but will just make you appear for who are you: a twittidiot who cannot argue about anything... |
XiaXueYiMay 22, 2023 2:08 AM
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