Mercenary34 said: AwokenStroken said: To think I haven't seen that many Animu and I've still noticed before you Ex: My Hero Academia, Bleach, Sword Art Online Perhaps you didn't realize they were kids, they certainly aren't drawn like they are. MY hero academia cuz of this bitch.she isn't a kid.look at her boobies Bruh they ARE kids, just because they have tits doesn't they aren't |
don't tell me you've seen a kid with tits like hers |
 OBAMOS |
| Does many anime sexualise cartoon children though? Nudity in of itself isnt sexualisation @AwokenStroken what do you consider a child? Because based off my own view point of what a child is the only show I can think of right off my head that actually sexualise kids it would be kodomo no jikan Mod Note: Removed image |
dipItFooNov 3, 2020 8:25 PM
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dude she is 15, current 16. it's not a child anymore xD god i thought you're talking about loli character who are 8 years old or something. come on this is just prude. Deknijff said: Does many anime sexualise cartoon children though? Nudity in of itself isnt sexualisation @AwokenStroken what do you consider a child? Because based off my own view point of what a childish is the only show I can think of right off my head that actually sexualise kids it would be kodomo no jikan this^ this is sexualise children. Mod Note: Edited quote |
dipItFooNov 3, 2020 8:26 PM
AwokenStroken said: dude...they can draw characters however...you could give them seven arms if you want...you can give kids big titties if you want i don't see the problem in sexualizing them either.i mean they are drawings after all right? |
| OBAMOS |
AwokenStroken said: To think I haven't seen that many Animu and I've still noticed before you Ex: My Hero Academia, Bleach, Sword Art Online Perhaps you didn't realize they were kids, they certainly aren't drawn like they are. No I just fundamentally disagree with your premise because the standards are arbitrary. Take LOTGH for instance Katerose is a teenager younger than say MT Lady an adult from MHA. Around 16 vs MT Lady being 22/23. Legend of the Galactic Heroes https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CQcPkt3WwAAjfJc.jpg MHA https://static0.cbrimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/mt-lady-featured.jpg Even though she is the adult one looks vastly older than the other purely off artistic stylization. Most anime and manga have consistency issues because really the only difference between an adult or teen is literally do they wear a HS uniform or not. Realistic art style are also going to just look older due to less over the top features like big eyes which often get seen that way. Loli/shota at least has a bit more of an argument but again they can also be stand ins for petite adults. See cosplayers who have done Megumin or Tanya cosplays. The guy who plays Hinata in Haikyuu literally fits the whole legal shota aspect lol. Is the issue design? Again designs can be varied and is really a problem if someone likes more round cartoon faces or bodies? If it's age then isn't okay if I just say all my characters are adults no matter what they look like. If it's how they act are adults acting in consensual behaviours then guilty of pedophilia in school girl fantasy RP seen in tons of NSFW content and can drawings actually have any mental age forget how adults and kids regularly act older and younger in many series. So no you really haven't seen much nor actually thought about it that well. Think about it more and watch more varied stuff by era and genre and then get back to me when you can actually counter those points. There is really no set of standards and every time this moral issue gets brought up people fail to clarify how it's bad, the actual impact and what the actual strict standards should be. |
BilboBaggins365Nov 3, 2020 11:42 AM
| Well that's because there are no children in anime. Just amorphous beings with vaguely humanoid features drawn on something. Mod Note: Removed response to deleted post Personal note: unnecessary, scrub. |
FullyChargedDec 3, 2020 3:20 AM
| bruh |
DomineLkira said: My entire rant was based on how I cant recommend good shows to people due to unnecessary loli scenes. If I sit down and tell people in real life that how this fictional kid getting molested isnt actually a bad thing they will call police on me lmao. It just sucks to not being able to discuss this masterpiece with my friends just because of this. The problem is that Western norms and laws consider teenagers to be children as well. So to use the Monogatari examples being brought up in this thread, non-anime fans and "normies" would view the scenes with Hitagi, Tsubasa, Karen, and Suruga to be just or almost as "problematic" as the ones involving Shinobu, Mayoi, Nadeko, and Tsukihi. Bloomberry said: That's a myth based on the national minimum. Regional laws in Japan's various prefectures have it at 16-18.Age of consent is 13. It will be a bit normalized in japan to sexualize people those ages. |
Zalis said: DomineLkira said: My entire rant was based on how I cant recommend good shows to people due to unnecessary loli scenes. If I sit down and tell people in real life that how this fictional kid getting molested isnt actually a bad thing they will call police on me lmao. It just sucks to not being able to discuss this masterpiece with my friends just because of this. The problem is that Western norms and laws consider teenagers to be children as well. So to use the Monogatari examples being brought up in this thread, non-anime fans and "normies" would view the scenes with Hitagi, Tsubasa, Karen, and Suruga to be just or almost as "problematic" as the ones involving Shinobu, Mayoi, Nadeko, and Tsukihi. Bloomberry said: That's a myth based on the national minimum. Regional laws in Japan's various prefectures have it at 16-18.Age of consent is 13. It will be a bit normalized in japan to sexualize people those ages. Pretty sure the reaction to the Araragi and Hachikuji "gag" will be much, much worse if it was shown to a non anime fan than the scenes involving Hitagi, Kanbaru etc. Because Hitagi and co are teenagers. Barely anyone giving a fuck about MHA girls being sexualised other than some twitter warriors tells us that. But I kinda see where you coming from. |
shrapn3l said: TolkienFan365 said: Most of my comment was just related to point out it isn't that common which it isn't. You kinda ignored most of my refutation which wasn't focused on the morality but that isn't common and that it has always been around. I get you aren't harping on the "objectification" angle that much. I just did take issue with that last statement which if I too it wrong fine I will drop that point of my statement. Well the question in the OP is "why does Lolicon exist and why is it so mainstream?" I was trying to frame lolicon as part of a larger trope of indulging male viewers and pandering to otaku. I used Shinbou/Shaft as an example because their M.O. is to make anime that will appeal heavily to anime fans. They are open about this fact. One of the ways they do that is evidently to put tons of fanservice, including lolicon, in their anime. In other words, they think of anime fans as males (mostly) who are interested in, rather than put off, by this type of content. It's evident in Monogatari (there are like 3 or 4 different Monogatari films/series among the top anime), but also in a show like Hidamari Sketch where the moe characters are shown bathing all the time. Gainax is also known for putting a good amount of fanservice (not "Lolicon," but sometimes underaged girls) in their anime and they're historically a pretty popular, influential studio (Evangelion, Gurren Lagann. These are the kinds of shows I was referencing that are "made for young people," but still popular with adults, though I will say at least their shows tend to give the female characters enough depth that a good number of female anime fans seem to like them). I realize that I'm conflating a few things there, but I think they're all connected to this central topic of female representation. I definitely don't think blame should be placed directly on artists, or only on artists. I agree, I don't think an artist is a terrible person for trying to make something they know will be profitable, because they often don't have a choice, but I doubt I'm the only person who thinks it's lame at times for the anime industry to be in such a state. When you're pandering constantly to one demographic in various ways, you're ignoring people who fall outside of it... I don't know if that's a "moral problem" but it seems stupid to not at least take note of it. I also brought up the point about "denial of sexualization" because people often say things like "I can recognize the difference between reality and fiction, so that's why it's ok for me to consume this content," but then I really hear those kinds of remarks: "she's not being sexualized, that's how some girls really are." I think it is important to be critical of the shit you watch even if YOU love it, but it seems like some people are not capable or not interested. When I think about how prominent this kind of thing is, I am not just thinking about "what are the best rated shows of all time," I am thinking about what content is shown to me immediately when I go to websites to watch anime/read manga, what's advertised to me through anime related youtube videos and shit like that. People don't necessarily think this content is "the best content anime has ever had to offer," but it seems silly to say it's not common or a prominent part of the culture. So much (often bad) content is pushed ONLY on the strength of ecchi and moe art (I don't think Lolicon is strictly "sexual" since Lolicon also like fantasizing about "pure" Lolis), and lewd gags. Another extension of the problem I think we can witness right here on these forums. People are allowed to make as many threads as they want in anime discussion about stuff like "who's the best waifu," "do you prefer oneesans, imoutos or okaasans," people make insanely explicit comments about wanting to fuck lolis, and so on but making a thread like "Is X anime sexist?" is outside the bounds of "discussing anime as an entertainment medium." Well, to me as an individual anime fan who apparently falls outside of the mainstream demographic, whether or not anime is entertaining is often somewhat hinged on whether it treats female characters like real people, because while I like indulging my fantasies at times, I'm also interested content that represents women, relationships etc. as they really are. Of course this content exists but its way less popular. Do other people really get so bent out of shape by that kind of opinion that it shouldn't be a topic of discussion? To me, pandering to otaku/teenage boys in the anime industry and in the anime fandom runs deep, and Lolicon is just one example of that. The problem is this isn't clarified if we are talking about lolicon which is different than say Gainx putting in a busty 16 year old. In comments talking with DomineLkira though I guess OP literally meant any character below 18 or looks a certain way IDK. That of course changes my perception what the thread is about. That said yeah anime and manga in large is YA material. That's partially because teens are a huge market and also partially because for adults it gives off a sense of escapism I will agree there. A lot of fanservice in shonen manga of course originally was meant to appeal to teens but of course you have a bigger male market. Secondly I mean if you want to talk about industry state that is everything. There are plenty of female characters that do have depth and aren't a focus of sexual attraction. So to me it's just accusing the industry of something I don't think it's doing. At most you could argue there is a dearth of content that is sexual targeted towards women or just sexualize men for a variety of reasons (censorship laws, women might prefer manga to anime etc) but that doesn't mean we have to paint the industry as sex crazed where the average female character is just a dull in the mind sex object. Thirdly context is needed. In really highly sexual shows or stuff that exists for fanservice no one is denying it. At most they are being defensive. Honestly the one time I actually could say I have encountered this is people acting like Kill La Kill is all about body positively and rebellion against conformity and some massive subversion critique on sex in anime and that it really wasn't conceived because Trigger was horny. I also I am not just thinking of prominent shows even the forgotten about stuff you got plenty of innocent moe do nothing SOL, sports anime, the occasional action series where there is barely any sexualization. I mean you got your typical isekai power fantasies and forgotten about ecchi series but to me it's still isn't as common as people make it out to be and when you consider the big famous stuff that actually shapes the industry and how it's remembered yeah it isn't that popular. Bakemonogatari even while known well within the anime community most casuals will have not heard about it. Finally again even if you want to talk forums it also ignores how often sexual plenty of other fanbases are. In gaming I know tons of people that only cared about what the romances and sex scenes were going to be in Mass Effect, the nudity or sexual stuff in Witcher or Cyberpunk or in TV when you had plenty of well visited articles and videos again focusing on the sex scenes (in Westworld or GOT) or how incredibly sexualized the music industry is which obviously is there for attention. Way too many fans they were are insanely sexual compared to plenty other media out there that would say otherwise. Also that's something to take up with MAL I would be insanely critical of many of those opinions but I do feel controversial stuff has the right to be on the board. If they don't want it taking up AD with toxic stuff relegated it to a specific debate section for MAL like they have for current events. Though again those threads are going to get heated because unlike just saying I like MILFs that is going to be innately controversial and because of the guilt of association I would argue is common today it can feel like a personal attack or it's being used to judge your character or morals. Finally depends on what you mean by the industry again at most I would argue maybe anime but not manga in the slightest. There is a ton of yaoi, shonen ai content and the fact tons of women support the otaku teenage boy stuff in the first place rather than saying supporting an action shojo like Yona. It's not up to guys to change that but girls both creatives in the medium and consumers but again it just depends on where you are. Sure not here or reddit anime because these boards tend to be more male dominated but in places like twitter you had plenty of posts talking about Fruits Basket and Banana Fish. In large many male characters can be just as unrealistically written as female characters and even the sexual stuff can be cringe. Even as a bi guy that one swiss guy in Yuri on Ice was about as stupid as the average fanservice scene in an ecchi anime. I don't feel the industry does treat them differently there is tropes, bad writing and shallowness. There is also good interesting characters who are well written. I mean honestly Chainsaw Man is incredibly sexual with it's characters mainly the female characters (it's actually used well and for plot reasons) and also has some of the better female character writing I have seen of late. It doesn't shape anything only execution does. |
BilboBaggins365Nov 3, 2020 1:16 PM
shrapn3l said: TolkienFan365 said: Though again those threads are going to get heated because unlike just saying I like MILFs that is going to be innately controversial and because of the guilt of association I would argue is common today it can feel like a personal attack or it's being used to judge your character or morals. At least we have been able to have a civil talk about it xd I agree with a lot of your points. Especially about Kill La Kill, that's an example I think of all the time. Even though there are a lot of things I like about it, I always felt it was so stupid that the characters outfits are so ridiculously revealing. To me, it's like, what's the point of putting all these good female characters in the show if half of the girls who watch it are gonna be like "🙄 wow just another ecchi fueled action anime," and they're not really wrong to feel that way. Manga I agree as well is pretty diverse, though maybe not perfect, and I tend to favor manga over anime for that reason. I think things being more balanced and varied is just better for everyone, but sometimes parts of the community are so defensive of the stuff they like that they seem to think asking for more variety is the same as saying "you're not allowed to like what you like/your favorite shows shouldn't exist" I am free to have any civil conversation as long as the person themselves are giving me the same respect. Plenty of these conversations I am willing to talk about like the morality of sexualization in anime and manga or charged political or social topics anime can spark. The problem with the internet is that because it's just text and that is all it is words may not come off like you wish and empathy is just going to be lessened. That usually means conversations that could be interesting even if opposed can get overly heated and in turns from interesting to toxic. I have had probably like one or two good conversations on sexualization in anime with someone I opposed. So considering how often it gets brought up it isn't that often. That said yeah I would be up for MAL just creating a debate zone for controversial topics related to anime as I don't think people want to see that on Current events. Right now there isn't a place to discuss that stuff. As long as there is a chance for mutual dialogue I am up to argue on this because I do feel at least on sexualization and female rep people do underrate this entire medium a lot in terms of how it handles that. Not asking to change anyone's mind but at least considering thinking about series or looking at content I have liked to at least maybe see somewhat where I am coming from. Edit: As for Kill La Kill you cut out the dumb dad and kid with the typical fanservice jokes I hate I would argue Kill La Kill did it well. It's not like those themes don't exist I am just saying that at the end of the day it still is mainly about an over the top action series that is sexualized. It's sexy and fun that is the point of Kill La Kill. Anyway it's up to the people you talk to I guess maybe because as a bi guy I might interact more with the non hetro community too but lots of female fans seem to enjoy it. It might not be their first pick but most guys don't watch Yuri on Ice either. Manga is pretty much the kicker especially if you want to talk about sex within the industry because honestly a lot of H-manga can be good in talking about it and using it and actually have good relationships that many romance anime lack. I mean it's there with you know all the insane fetish and very unhealthy if IRL stuff too but people are capable of actually using it well that stuff just rarely gets adapted. Though even for normal manga there is so much that doesn't get adapted and I don't know how true it is but I remember hearing women and men read a lot of manga but not as many women watch anime preferring to watch live action dramas. Don't know how true that is. The lack of shojo an josei adaptions means I bet there is some truth to it. Finally I mean sometimes there is reason for the defense and moral arguments are a good reason for that. It's less about just being critical of say how a show handles something and more that if you support this you support x bad thing in IRL and I see this a lot. Well are you shocked people then get defensive over controversial topics? If you want to make that more normal you have to take the personal stakes out of these arguments so people don't feel they are being accused of say sexism if you want to accuse an anime they like of it and they disagree it is. |
BilboBaggins365Nov 3, 2020 1:59 PM
| What about Shoujo Ramune. Has anyone watched this one? |
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| It sells, anime fans are the biggest consumers of this loli thingy it's disgusting for me tho |
  "elles sont bien noires les pensées des nuits blanches"  |
IpreferEcchi said: Because freedom of expression. I fap to lolis. Drawings don't have rights. God fucking dammit, im gonna print this, put it in a frame and sell it to an art museum, pure facts. |
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| You wouldn't happen to be a member of the Australian government would you? |
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Neku-tan said: What about Shoujo Ramune. Has anyone watched this one? Not much to say, masterpiece and a certified hood classic. |
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HentaiIs4Losers said: Neku-tan said: What about Shoujo Ramune. Has anyone watched this one? Not much to say, masterpiece and a certified hood classic. I see you are a man of culture. Brilliant series. |
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| Idk dude, Japan's kinda weird I guess. |
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| Isn't everything sexualized nowadays? and isn't that essentially Rule 34? |
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DomineLkira said: Because some people are fuckin weirdos that get off to sexi lolis, so the industry has to cater to them. Do you understand how many legitimately good shows I can never recommend to anyone because of naked lolis? People see my fucking anime list, see Monogatari in it (which I have rated highly), search it on youtube and the next day give me weird stares. Do you know why? Because they see this fucking clip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eOefd87-rk A 17yr old kissing a 500yr old who looks like 8 Fucking hell. I hate loli culture. There are a lot of sexualised teenage girl in anime too,but I can get why. These type of shows are mainly aimed at teenagers and wants to attract them ,so it makes sense why they will do that. Hero Aca is a good example. But loli? Who the fuck are you making loliporn for? 8yr olds? Holy shit. I mainly don't care about it that much. This shit only becomes a problem when I have to recommend shows to people. I myself just ignore it. But holy fuck Japan please stop. It is THIS easy to not show a 11yr old sexualised (Goddamnit No Game no Life) my guy is just a drawing relax hahaha imagination has no boundaries lol |
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DomineLkira said: yea that's especially annoying when you like something on the whole and people think you like one of the parts that you actually hate. and for some reason it's hard to explain "but I agree, I dislike that part too, but the rest is good" they might even think you're sucking up when you're not.Because some people are fuckin weirdos that get off to sexi lolis, so the industry has to cater to them. Do you understand how many legitimately good shows I can never recommend to anyone because of naked lolis? People see my fucking anime list, see Monogatari in it (which I have rated highly), search it on youtube and the next day give me weird stares. Do you know why? Because they see this fucking clip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eOefd87-rk A 17yr old kissing a 500yr old who looks like 8 Fucking hell. I hate loli culture. There are a lot of sexualised teenage girl in anime too,but I can get why. These type of shows are mainly aimed at teenagers and wants to attract them ,so it makes sense why they will do that. Hero Aca is a good example. But loli? Who the fuck are you making loliporn for? 8yr olds? Holy shit. I mainly don't care about it that much. This shit only becomes a problem when I have to recommend shows to people. I myself just ignore it. But holy fuck Japan please stop. It is THIS easy to not show a 11yr old sexualised (Goddamnit No Game no Life) horrible. and I'm talking about anything in life, not just animes. Chro0oIsAWeeb said: WHY DOES EVERYWORD YOU TYPE START IN CAPS AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAwrong. in that case, it's a pedophile being shown, in that case, you see the pedophile in the anime, whearas he is talking about when kids are actually being sexualized, sexual fanservice.DomineLkira said: Because some people are fuckin weirdos that get off to sexi lolis, so the industry has to cater to them. Do you understand how many legitimately good shows I can never recommend to anyone because of naked lolis? People see my fucking anime list, see Monogatari in it (which I have rated highly), search it on youtube and the next day give me weird stares. Do you know why? Because they see this fucking clip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eOefd87-rk A 17yr old kissing a 500yr old who looks like 8 Fucking hell. I hate loli culture. There are a lot of sexualised teenage girl in anime too,but I can get why. These type of shows are mainly aimed at teenagers and wants to attract them ,so it makes sense why they will do that. Hero Aca is a good example. But loli? Who the fuck are you making loliporn for? 8yr olds? Holy shit. I mainly don't care about it that much. This shit only becomes a problem when I have to recommend shows to people. I myself just ignore it. But holy fuck Japan please stop. It is THIS easy to not show a 11yr old sexualised (Goddamnit No Game no Life) Don't look at my favorites I Don't Really Sexualize Loli's Simply Because It's Not Really My Thing I Would Be Lying If I Said I Haven't Searched It Up But I Don't Really Get The Issue People Have With Characters That "Look Too Young" If The Age Is Confirmed And Legal What Gives You The Right To Call Me Fucked Up Or Sick? Especially If The Character Isn't Human Btw DomineLkira I'm Not Really Talking About You I'm Just Quoting You Because You Brought Up Shinobu From Monogatari Which Is One Of My Favorite Characters https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFZQCbnEyMI |
| Don't forget incest too. Japan is an extremely close knit and related society. They are also Shinto and Buddhists. Don't judge them by Christian standards. Oh by the way, girls were being wed right after menses around the world less than 200 years ago or so. |
Zehennagel said: DomineLkira said: yea that's especially annoying when you like something on the whole and people think you like one of the parts that you actually hate. and for some reason it's hard to explain "but I agree, I dislike that part too, but the rest is good" they might even think you're sucking up when you're not.Because some people are fuckin weirdos that get off to sexi lolis, so the industry has to cater to them. Do you understand how many legitimately good shows I can never recommend to anyone because of naked lolis? People see my fucking anime list, see Monogatari in it (which I have rated highly), search it on youtube and the next day give me weird stares. Do you know why? Because they see this fucking clip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eOefd87-rk A 17yr old kissing a 500yr old who looks like 8 Fucking hell. I hate loli culture. There are a lot of sexualised teenage girl in anime too,but I can get why. These type of shows are mainly aimed at teenagers and wants to attract them ,so it makes sense why they will do that. Hero Aca is a good example. But loli? Who the fuck are you making loliporn for? 8yr olds? Holy shit. I mainly don't care about it that much. This shit only becomes a problem when I have to recommend shows to people. I myself just ignore it. But holy fuck Japan please stop. It is THIS easy to not show a 11yr old sexualised (Goddamnit No Game no Life) horrible. and I'm talking about anything in life, not just animes. Chro0oIsAWeeb said: WHY DOES EVERYWORD YOU TYPE START IN CAPS AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAwrong. in that case, it's a pedophile being shown, in that case, you see the pedophile in the anime, whearas he is talking about when kids are actually being sexualized, sexual fanservice.Don't look at my favorites I Don't Really Sexualize Loli's Simply Because It's Not Really My Thing I Would Be Lying If I Said I Haven't Searched It Up But I Don't Really Get The Issue People Have With Characters That "Look Too Young" If The Age Is Confirmed And Legal What Gives You The Right To Call Me Fucked Up Or Sick? Especially If The Character Isn't Human Btw DomineLkira I'm Not Really Talking About You I'm Just Quoting You Because You Brought Up Shinobu From Monogatari Which Is One Of My Favorite Characters https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFZQCbnEyMI Caps Give Me The Ability To Flex My Masculinity And Stupidity |
| I see dead people |
| well that would be the problem though, not that it's what is being discussed directly, but in a society where everything is sexualized, sexual frustration only goes up. Chro0oIsAWeeb said: it's so horrible to read manZehennagel said: yea that's especially annoying when you like something on the whole and people think you like one of the parts that you actually hate. and for some reason it's hard to explain "but I agree, I dislike that part too, but the rest is good" they might even think you're sucking up when you're not. horrible. and I'm talking about anything in life, not just animes.WHY DOES EVERYWORD YOU TYPE START IN CAPS AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAwrong. in that case, it's a pedophile being shown, in that case, you see the pedophile in the anime, whearas he is talking about when kids are actually being sexualized, sexual fanservice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFZQCbnEyMI Caps Give Me The Ability To Flex My Masculinity And Stupidity |
it's so horrible to read man I'm glad :) well now i need some filler words so lets think... MARTIAL HEARTS IS A MASTERPIECE |
| I see dead people |
shrapn3l said: TolkienFan365 said: Finally I mean sometimes there is reason for the defense and moral arguments are a good reason for that. It's less about just being critical of say how a show handles something and more that if you support this you support x bad thing in IRL and I see this a lot. Well are you shocked people then get defensive over controversial topics? If you want to make that more normal you have to take the personal stakes out of these arguments so people don't feel they are being accused of say sexism if you want to accuse an anime they like of it and they disagree it is. Yeah.. some people feel that way i.e. if you say you are fine with watching "sexist content" you're a misogynist or whatever. To me life is just more complicated than that. Obviously something like "misogyny" existing is terrible, but I think people sometimes put too much faith in the political/psychological narratives they create about reality when they're really just that: hypothetical narratives. Some people really do consume/produce sexist content because they actively hate women, some do so in total ignorance, and some people do it wittingly but it has nothing to do with their personal beliefs about women. Regardless it's not like you can always simplify a show to one idea like that. I think like you kinda pointed out, when you make shows catered toward people of various genders, sexualities etc., the shows don't suddenly become perfect, they are deficient in other ways. Maybe the male characters are poorly written instead. So in my mind the goal is never "let's eliminate this type of content, plz nobody watch it or you're a bad person" it's just "let's create a lot of different content and actually try to be mindful about these issues in our lives in general." My niece is actually the person I first found out about Kill la Kill from years ago, but I would never recommend it to my current roommate (a queer woman who has become a big fan of anime in the past couple years via Fruits Basket and Yuri on Ice). I remember when I explained what fanservice typically refers to in the anime fandom to my roommate she was just like "yeah.. that's disgusting." I think a lot of people actually feel that way, more or less. On the other hand, Chika Umino specifically asked for Studio Shaft to adapt March Comes in Like a Lion because she likes Monogatari... Maybe more guys would be interested in Yuri on Ice if they looked through Yamamoto Sayo's past projects. I believe misogyny certainly exists in reality, and female representation in various entertainment is undoubtedly tied to it... but I don't think it's something that can be solved by trying to force people to consume content they don't care about. I have no misconception abt the fact that, perhaps first and foremost, I am critical about things like fanservice, lolicon etc. because they often annoy or disturb me personally. Sometimes I encounter people who really are misogynistic whether they may or may not know it though... Of course they are going to react harshly if I call them a misogynist, but I'm going to stand by my convictions in that case. It's not something I assume about every person just based on what anime they watch. The point is it's not as objective you make it out to be and even then intent is incredibly important (like again if it's heavily sexualized many people get turned on from being degraded so you have people enjoying content on the surface level is incredibly misandrist or misogynistic). Secondly well yeah everyone is for that I would like to see more varied content that caters to me as anyone but it goes back to this the industry is responsive. If the money is there it will get made. I would like more war drama's, historical titles, well animated hentai that adapts more vanilla, yaoi and other kinds of content but again it goes back to is it profitable? As for second point again it depends I knew plenty who at least like sexualized designs and or like KLK because of the yuri aspects. Obviously you feel strongly about it as a guy that it's not great and that's fine I don't have an issue with that. Even if I come out often in defense against it I do feel divided on "fanservice" more than say sexualization due to how it's used. This can be varied and not as clear cut down to sexuality or gender as people try to make it out to be. This is often when you see tons of women say that yaoi and shonen ai inherently is objectifying gay or bi men and of course I disagree with that and I see plenty other gay and bi guys disagree with that often themselves being a fudanshi. Moralizing arguments often actually ignore the people they are supposedly protecting. Thirdly I never said it or any form of sex based discrimination or biases do exist. Of course they do and like any representation of men or women art can often make those biases very obvious. I also didn't say people should or have to consume anything. In large I am no prude I like H-manga and a lot of art but a lot of ecchi stuff isn't really my cup of tea or at best meh with a few exceptions. That is true of a lot of fanservice. I can empathize and understand why many people find it disgusting or want to avoid it. You can critique or dislike all of it I don't feel that is wrong but I am sorry because that is incredibly an ultra specific claim and no I don't think you can at all derive that view from what they enjoy in entertainment alone. So when those conversations do turn personal unless it's something actually the person stated about their world view I think that detracts from any controversial topics and is also the reason why it rarely turns out good. |
BilboBaggins365Nov 3, 2020 4:20 PM
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