huge lack of respectable female protagonists or heroines in anime?

TheBrainintheJar said:


If don't like it when people try to convince you, I suggest avoiding communication with anyone. It's a side-effect.

I use 'gender' as a shorter term for 'gender role', and 'gender' is jumping from the IS to the OUGHT as I explained above. You're welcome to show me an alternative definition.

tragedydesu said:
A female character can be respectable without being strong
Cute girls are respectable in my opinion

SuperRed said:


How about cute girls who can also kick ass?

TheKawaiiZombie said:
Asuna is still a better character than Kirito...

tragedydesu said:

In general I have more respect for kind weak characters than arrogant strong ones

Cute + strong at the same time is great

DoubleMangekyo said:

In what way exactly, if you'd be so kind as to educate me on the matter? I'm genuinely curious here.

Since, to my mind at least, and sorry if anyone gets triggered by this, she's the most boring/uninteresting main female in any anime I've seen. A character who's only purpose, outside of Mother's Rosary and maybe SAO Progressive, is to be Kirito's waifu.

(Keep in mind, I've only read the novels up to to Mother's Rosary, so I know nothing of what happens in Alicization.)

jal90 said:

I wasn't discussing with you and your claims have nothing to do with the conclusion I was defending.

When you stop being condescending for the sake of being condescending you can answer why am I supposed to jump to the conclusion that you were talking about gender roles from the beginning and if you quoting me meant something.

Here you have a definition and now please can we move on from needlessly answering claims that have nothing to do with the discussion, thanks. If I am talking about the scientific concept of the term, please tell me where the hell is the argument about gender being cool or horseshit you've been trying to start here by quoting me and either misinterpreting what was going on at all or assuming that I had an opinion I hadn't pronounced because this is. Not. The. Topic. Of. Our. Discussion. And how you feel about gender is irrelevant to understand how stablished the term is and the existence or not of genders beyond the binary categorization.

Agh, I'm redundant as fuck.

TheBrainintheJar said:


Telling someone he's condescending is meaningless in a discussion. If I said "The earth is round you piece of shit", the earth would remain round.

I clarified my statement, what I meant by 'gender' when I said so you'll understand my argument better. An important aspect of a good discussion is always clarifying our terms.

TheKawaiiZombie said:


Kirito is arguably the worst protagonist in anime. At least Asuna has some kind of decent role in the arc with Yuuki. Kirito... Well i can't say anything even decent about him as a character. Now don't get me wrong, Asuna is a bad charater, i just think Kirito is even worse. Now i haven't read the novels, this is based on the anime.

Ironclad_Cobra said:
[*]Tacit implication that being a love interest inherently makes a character unrespectable...

rvbrick said:

Major Kusanagi from Ghost in The Shell.

Noriko Takaya from Gunbuster, though I'm less confident she fits exactly what you're looking for.

Nausicaa from.. well, Nausicaa (duh).

The biggest example I could think of going by just your post was Gally/Alita from Battle Angel Alita/Gunnm but the anime adaptation was really short.

There are plenty of these kinds of female characters, you just have to look past a decent chunk of the most popular stuff. You'll find it's not as uncommon as you think.

flannan said:
@TheBrainintheJar can you re-state what exactly are you trying to argue here? It kind of got lost in the quote towers, and I have good enough opinion of you to actually discuss this stuff.


You know, it's impressive how you managed to say exactly nothing.
Here, try answering questions instead:
1) Do you care about anime characters as characters in a story or as people?
2) What do you think makes a good protagonist?
3) How does Kirito fail to do that?
4) How does Asuna fail to do that?

TheKawaiiZombie said:


Sorry, i just didn't have time to write when i wrote that so i simplified by saying Kirito is the worst protagonist.
1) I'd say both.
2) Not being just like every other shitty protagonist is a good start. Characters with interesting personnalities (As in not just archetypes), they can be archetypes but must more to them than just that. It must make sense for them to be like they are. Being unique is a huge plus. I could continue writing but i'll stop there.
3) Kirito is just plain uninteresting, he is just a plot driven piece of cardboard who is op for no damn reason, sure you could say he played the beta, and things like that, or that he practiced sword wielding, but all in all, it makes no sense for him to be that OP, oh and being a solo player would be even more retarded as a way of convincing me of the opposite as being a solo player in MMOs actually makes you level slower... Kirito has absolutely NOTHING unique to him. There just is nothing to him, dunno how some people even like him... He's also an idiot, so maybe he's not even as perfect as the stupid story makes him out to be...
4) Asuna is just one of Kirito's bitches, they all are just there to make Kirito's harem and act like retards. She is slightly more interesting than the others only because i think she may actually not be part of the harem if she wasn't the main girl. Still super bad. At least in the arc with Yuuki we saw her be more than what she was before... If only by a little bit.
I'd give Kirito a 1/10 score as a character and Asuna a 2/10.
Keep in mind that i haven't read the novels, and i'm sure they are at least slightly better characters in the novels, but in the anime they are REALLY BAD.

flannan said:

2) I find your desire for uniqueness to be self-destructive. When somebody has used a personality, all the ones similar to it become non-unique.
Well, it's your problem, so I would not argue with you here. Kirito is there because the story needs a protagonist, not to make some big point.

3) Kirito is not overpowered - he is exactly as powerful as the main character needs to be. You modern kids are just too used to underpowered MCs like Yukki. The anime is bad in this regard, I'll give you that.
He is not powerful without reason. He has plenty of reasons, have a link to my rant about reasons for his power. But in the end, it's all survivorship bias - there is always somebody who is the strongest, and it happens to be Kirito.
Kirito isn't "an idiot". He just makes mistakes that are reasonable for a teenage boy like him to do. That's how a believable smart character should be. (Screw you, sociopath masterminds like Light! We are not like you!)
But most importantly, he takes virtual reality way too seriously. He is the only guy in all of anime who is like that.

4) So, you're one of the people who believe it is wrong for a girl to be in love? For me, one of the strong points of SAO was its romantic subplot with Asuna. Too many anime delay romance indefinitely, but SAO does it right.

TheKawaiiZombie said:
3) Yukki ? You mean that shithead from Mirai Nikki ?

TheKawaiiZombie said:
A main character doesn't need to be powerful or weak, he can be anything, as long as it is explained and makes sense.

TheKawaiiZombie said:
Again, in an MMO, the big guilds will level up faster than solo players yet Kirito was the highest level.

TheKawaiiZombie said:
4) It's not wrong for a girl to be in love, it's wrong for her to go full retard when she is in love. The romance in SAO wasn't really good tbh. (It was enjoyable, i'll give you that, it changed the pacing a bit and for the best). The fact i love romance anime just counters the very things you just said.

flannan said:

Yes, I'm talking about the PoV character from Mirai Nikki. Full of complex internal world (where Deus Machina lives), with personality and proper character development (from a kid who talks to imaginary friends to psycho killer on par with Yuno). And not remotely cool enough, even as he manages to kill a few people with his own strength.

Whenever I see a normally powerful main character called "overpowered", I think people want more MCs to be like Yukki.


No, just no. There is one special thing about a main character. He/she is the one who gets things done. His relative strength is what determines the genre. And Kirito has the right amount of strength for an action MC - a bit stronger than Worthy Opponents. (small-time bandits and dragons are, naturally, outclassed)
Get the MC weaker, and it will be a battle shounen, where every fight has to be won with power of friendship instead of one's own power.
Get the MC even weaker, and it's a story about sneaky bastards, not heroes.


I don't know how it was in the MMO you've played, but SAO works fairly - the experience for slaying monsters is divided among the people who have slain them, thus a player who goes solo can hog all the exp. The trick is not getting in over your head, since a party is more powerful than a solo player, even as the solo has more levels.
Why do people assume all their prior MMO experience applies to SAO the game, when it's obvious it doesn't? I mean, that game doesn't even have classes except for "fighter".


What makes you think Asuna "went full retard"? Apart from the classic "sacrifice yourself for the one you love" part?

TheKawaiiZombie said:


What i just read is enough, it is pointless to continue, you are too biased towards certain anime and it shows. Battle shounen need to be won with friendship power ? Wow, talk about hating a genre unfairly, have you seen FMAB ? Or Hunter X Hunter ? Those 2 anime are not only hundreds of times better than shit like SAO but their main characters (Especially FMAB's) are much better than Kirito. And guess what, they aren't that strong, yet not a single one of their fights was won thanks to friendship power. Weird huh ?
I'm gonna end the conversation here as i've had enough, there is absolutely no point in continuing it.

Onyx-Sentinel said:
@flannan
You hypocrite, so apparently you won't watch a show because all the mains are male, yet Strike the Blood is in your favourites, which 90% of the cast are female, and 2 outta 3 mains are female.

flannan said:
@TheBrainintheJar can you re-state what exactly are you trying to argue here? It kind of got lost in the quote towers, and I have good enough opinion of you to actually discuss this stuff.


You know, it's impressive how you managed to say exactly nothing.
Here, try answering questions instead:
1) Do you care about anime characters as characters in a story or as people?
2) What do you think makes a good protagonist?
3) How does Kirito fail to do that?
4) How does Asuna fail to do that?


The problem is, the whole opening post if full of such tacit implications, making us assume the OP is intellectually dishonest.

jal90 said:

«If you don't like it when people try to convince you, I suggest avoiding communication with anyone.»

Give me a fucking break.

I didn't even claim to disagree with your statement here (which was totally uncalled for) so why the hell am I supposed to antagonize you.

TheBrainintheJar said:

- Gender = Gender roles, when I currently use it

- Gender roles are a solution to an is-ought problem:
IS: The average man is stronger than the average woman
Therefore, OUGHT: Only men should so physical labour\

- My objection: It does not follow. The IS doesn't show all men are stronger than all women. Beyond that, what's important for physical labor is only strength, regardless of your biological sex.

- Therefore, these gender roles are utterly pointless. Regardless of your biological sex, you decide what to do with your body.

flannan said:
Onyx claims that there are exactly two sexes/genders (he uses the words interchangeably), and each of them is hard-wired with major parts of gender roles. That is, not only men are stronger than woman, they are pre-programmed to want to do physical labor. Any man that refuses to do physical labor (for example because he is lazy like Houtarou Oreki from Hyouka) is unrealistic.

jntdo said:



Is that an actual opinion? If so, that's pretty close-minded.


There are people like me that refuse to do physical labor because of a heart condition.

flannan said:

The way I see this discussion, Onyx claims that there are exactly two sexes/genders (he uses the words interchangeably), and each of them is hard-wired with major parts of gender roles. That is, not only men are stronger than woman, they are pre-programmed to want to do physical labor. Any man that refuses to do physical labor (for example because he is lazy like Houtarou Oreki from Hyouka) is unrealistic.
Other people in the discussion, in particular me and @jal90, find this claim both stupid and badly outdated.

jal90 said:
@TheBrainintheJar

Did you actually read my previous post or just reacted to the «condescending for the sake of being condescending» part? It honestly doesn't sound like you want a conversation here if I repeat the same thing various times and you still haven't seemed to make any substantial effort to understand what I say, which is, by the way, quite basic and straightforward I think.

If you quote me and try to drag me into a discussion then at least make sure that I have an opinion on the matter we can actually discuss about. Don't quote a completely different discussion and try to diverge the topic towards something neither Onyx nor me have tackled specifically here.

I'm getting really sick of explaining this: our discussion was about gender as considered by science, its definition and its reach. We were discussing whether it existed or not as a fully established term in science. You enter suddenly and try to add a point to the argument nobody asked for: «gender is horseshit» (thanks for clarifying by the way). What am I supposed to do here? Engage in a discussion about how gender roles should or should not exist? Expose my personal opinion on them? Do you realize that this is not what we were talking about at all?

In a nutshell:
Onyx: gender is a social construct and it's binary
Me: gender is a term recognized by modern science and it's not binary
You: hey guys I believe gender (roles) are bad and should disappear

Do you see the digression here? Hey, if you were referring to gender roles the whole time, then you quoting me makes even less sense because we were not talking about that. None of us.

Honestly it sounds like you want a discussion and don't care with whom, which is cool, but you know... choose your oponents.

TheBrainintheJar said:


Find the claim I put forward, or Onyx's?

TheBrainintheJar said:
As for my claim, I come from the pessimist bent. I already look down on any big social narratives. Nationality, ethnicity, race, and gender are all silly groups we box ourselves in that don't help us. So I deliberately reduce sex to a few body parts and strip it of its meaning. Society can give it meaning all it wants but it doesn't prove it has meaning.

flannan said:

Onyx's claim.


To @jal90 , biological component of sex is not reducible to "a few body parts", since, as the article he has linked demonstrates, it is affected by interplay of a lot of factors that don't necessarily result in a classic "male" or "female" human.
In practice, "gender roles" can be safely ignored (you might have to nuke a few countries who disagree, but they always needed nuking), but "gender identity" is not. Having a gender identity that is not in line with one's physical body can give such "transsexual" people a lot of suffering.

TheBrainintheJar said:


What is 'gender identity'?

TheBrainintheJar said:
How come biological component of sex isn't reducible? Why can't I reduce it to penis-and-vagina?

flannan said:

'Gender identity' means the gender that the owner of the identity considers oneself to belong to. This can be pretty complicated (especially for intersex individuals who are in harmony with their bodies), but "attack helicopter" probably does not belong here - it must be somewhere near "therian" people. (Therians identify with animals)


You are immediately faced with the fact at least some results in that article seem to be classic futanari, with both a penis and a vagina.
Oh, and genetics-first people will disagree with you a lot.

TheBrainintheJar said:


Merely talking about 'what you feel you belong to' doesn't explain gender identity. What are the traits?

TheBrainintheJar said:
Intersex are mutations, abnormalities. They don't exist in significant amount so I'll throw the whole binary out.

flannan said:

You keep saying this, but it means "I want to oppress millions of people".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex#Population_figures
"According to Blackless, Fausto-Sterling et al., 1.7 percent of human births are intersex, including variations that may not become apparent until, for example, puberty, or until attempting to conceive."

Nyu said:


Why are you purposely misleading him?
1.7% of Human births are not XXY.
1.7% of Human births have minor abnormalities and mutations.
You are being purposely vague with "Intersex".

What you're trying to do is no different than all those articles claiming more girls played Video Games than guys, this was because their sources took into account Phone Games, which everyone knows aren't real games.

flannan said:

The article I have linked to has more detailed info. I just needed to have an order-of-magnitude approximation. I also don't care what exactly do you consider to be "true" intersex - said article says Blackless and Fausto-Sterling's estimate is good for people like UN, so it is good enough for random chat on the net.

By the way, 1 in 1000 figure specifically for "Klinefelter syndrome (XXY)" in that article still means "about 7,5 millions of people" (given an estimate of 7 500 000 000 people from Wikipedia). Which is a whole damn lot of people, if you ask me!

Nyu said:


So only 0.1% are XXY, not 1.7%.
Anyway, I'm happy, I've pointed out your deception.

flannan said:

What deception? I do not consider XXY to be the only kind of intersex. Only you do.
@TheBrainintheJar considers genitals, not genes to be the primary criterion.

Nyu said:


XXY is the same as hermaphrodite. Anyway, you were still deceiving him as your statistics includes more mutations and abnormalities than just hermaphrodite.

flannan said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity
"Gender identity is one's personal experience of one's own gender".
What kind of "traits" are you looking for? Gender identity is a state of mind, so you will not be able to observe it directly with modern technology.


You keep saying this, but it means "I want to oppress millions of people".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex#Population_figures
"According to Blackless, Fausto-Sterling et al., 1.7 percent of human births are intersex, including variations that may not become apparent until, for example, puberty, or until attempting to conceive."
That's about the same order of magnitude as homosexuals.

TheBrainintheJar said:


This doesn't mean I want to oppress people. Please, no mind-rape, telling people "I know what you REALLY think!". This time of technique get us nowhere.

When I say you're a mutation or an abnormality, I do not say you don't exist, but that you don't overthrow a fact. I'll bring it close to my home. I'm suicidal and believe dying is a right, yet I readily agree the desire to live is hard-wired in us. Just because a few of us want to die doesn't mean the whole pattern is thrown off.

TheBrainintheJar said:
I still don't get 'gender identity'. I'm a man only because I have a penis. I don't define myself as 'genderqueer' although I don't fit the 'man' template, only because I doubt the genderqueers would accept me among them.

antonn said:
Someone call a plumber. Tumblr is leaking.

HyperL said:
@TheBrainintheJar
Let me try to explain gender identity for you.
You know those movies where a man and a woman switch bodies? Imagine if happened to you, how would it feel?
Well, for the sake of the explanation, let me tell you how would you feel:
Firstly, your mind wouldn't change a bit. Your instincts and emotions would still be the same, you would still be attracted to woman (at least I assume you are to begin with) and most importantly you would still feel like and perceive things as (have the perspective of) a man even though you have the looks and reproductive organs of a woman.
Secondly, because you still feel like and perceive things as a man, there's a possibility that you would feel some sort of disconnection or dissonance to your current body, as if it belonged in a different body, a male one.

And that is basically what a transgender is (or at least my interpretation of it. But that's what I got from reading and hearing about the subject), but without the body swap stuff and possibly from the very start of their lives. They have the mind state, perspective and sense of self pertencing to a gender within a body (with reproductive organs) of the opposite gender.

Thus gender identity is, in a way, the gender of the mind, though the LGBT community and its supporters considers it the ideal view of gender and fight so that being trangender can be viewed as normal and to have them be addressed for what they consider themselves.

flannan said:

I do assume you do not want to oppress people. But the way you're saying it does say the opposite. I wanted to highlight that.
One common way of oppressing a class of people is assuming they do not exist, and making policy decisions without taking them into account.
To use your example: sure, desire to live is hard-wired into people. That doesn't mean suicides do not exist, and every case of suicide should be considered a very well concealed murder, and investigated until the police finds somebody (probably innocent) to put into jail.


Let me put it in anime terms. Major Motoko Kusanagi, MC of GitS, might not be a stereotypical woman (she is a badass spec ops leader), but she consistently chooses feminine cyborg bodies, even if it is not the best choice. Because she self-identifies as female (probably because she was born female). Hence, we can say that her gender identity is female. Even though she has an uber-masculine gender role.

Sorry I could not find a good example among your watched anime. It seems that "Ore, Twintail ni Narimasu" is the only one that can be used to explore this question (there are also Ergo Proxy and a few other anime that might be relevant but I don't know well enough).

TheBrainintheJar said:


I truly wonder what would happen if I switched bodies. See, I consider my body nothing more than some matter that can movie on its own. Society prescribes it meaning. I don't.



Another way of oppressing people is classifying them as dangerous. So I'd be wary of pointing the finger and calling someone a racist or a transphobic. Such name-calling can only ruin the discussion, not support it. I will not cower just because someone called me something nasty.

A problem here is that I don't consider our bodies to be meaningful except as a bunch of matter we control. See above. Of course I don't feel connected to my body. I'm stuck with it, I was cursed with it and I live with it.

The only reason I'd prefer a woman's body is because they do better socially than men.