Red_Keys said: Stop talking about feminism. Males being deemed by society as more disposable and less worthy of empathy, their pain and suffering looked on as comical and amusing for the general public, has been around since long before feminism existed. This is not because of "feminists". And no, feminists are not helping either. It's may be like that normally, but it just gets ridiculous when such "gender standards" are being applied to a situation whose premise already denies the roots of the "gender standards" (e.g. when a female is 100 times stronger than most male characters, and therefore loses her role as a 'frail' human being, but still one sidedly 'does slapstick comedy' against one or several relatively weak males.) The term for this is "double standard" and it's that "double standard" aspect that many people simply cannot stand to watch anymore. |
Grey-ZoneJun 8, 2015 4:55 PM
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| Anime girls have temper problems, I just realized. |
Bum Bum Dum Dum |
Grey-Zone said: TheBrainintheJar said: Still, I wish these people who claim feminism is a codeword for matiarchy would show me some more examples. I didn't even claim that and I am not sure who else possibly did. I am just saying the word is simply too broad and sometimes when people talk about "feminists" they talk about completely different "kinds" of feminists. It needlessly derails conversations due to misunderstandings. As for the one I was talking about: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/review/fate-stay-night-unlimited-blade-works/episode-19/.88250 Excerpt (Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV) Episode 19 spoilers): She basically implies that all watchers are "supposed to" derive pleasure from an (almost) rape scene of a rather serious TV series. It seems in her mind everyone who is watching that anime is a "sex beast" who derives pleasure from seeing females being "violated", or that the author and producers supposedly wanted it to be perceived as such, denouncing all of them. Meanwhile there are reports about critiscsm from people who disagree with her reviews being deleted. I don't like to be accused of "deriving pleasure from that scene". I have literally never seen anyone stating that the scene was "hot" or anything like that, it was all in her mind and the "purpose" of that scene the thought of is only in her delusional mind as well. The possibility of interpreting the scene like that didn't even cross my mind. Such a person is called a "feminist" alongside people who geniunly want gender equality. How am I supposed to draw a line between them, if the same word is used for all of them? That's my point. You're reading too much into it. She criticizes a scene in which a girl gets sexually harassed, but it's directed in a way that's meant to sexually arouse. That's reasonable. Art has power to change the meaning of things. Just look at all the action films that turn violence and mass destruction into a beautiful sight. She didn't elaborate on why the scene was directed like that, which is a problem. If a rape scene focuses too much on the little details I'd say it's meant to 'titillate'. After all, we know rape is bad - why linger on the details? |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| It's ment to be repulsive to the audience. Anyone who feels aroused by that is literally a piece of sh*t of a human being. Saying that both producers and audience are "a piece of sh*t of human being" is anything but reasonable, escpacially if you consider the rest of the show. |
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| How the fuck is this cliche because feminism when most of show that showing this type girls are aiming for guys? just admit that anime fans are masochist already. damn people. stop blaming something that not even relevant. |
 "If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| I wish girls would beat me up ;_; |
MeowMeowNeko said: ^I wish girls would beat me up ;_; No better feeling than getting your penis bullied by a little girl <3 |
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Unyilkdr said: How the fuck is this cliche because feminism when most of show that showing this type girls are aiming for guys? just admit that anime fans are masochist already. damn people. stop blaming something that not even relevant. speak for yourself. The fact that this thread exists already shows that it does not neccessarily apply to "all" anime fans, not even the "majority" of anime fans. |
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NewAgeOtaku15 said: That's an insane generalization right thereIt's the beauty of the tsundere archetype. Tunderes are meant for comedy anime. Yanderes for Horror. Kuuderes and Danderes for Drama and Romance. |
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NewAgeOtaku15 said: It's the beauty of the tsundere archetype. Tunderes are meant for comedy anime. Yanderes for Horror. Kuuderes and Danderes for Drama and Romance. Why is Yuno in a comedy anime then? Explain. |
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Tenshi_Shura said: depends on what your thought is on Comedy.NewAgeOtaku15 said: It's the beauty of the tsundere archetype. Tunderes are meant for comedy anime. Yanderes for Horror. Kuuderes and Danderes for Drama and Romance. Why is Yuno in a comedy anime then? Explain. |
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Grey-Zone said: this type anime will not made if it not sell. just saying.Unyilkdr said: How the fuck is this cliche because feminism when most of show that showing this type girls are aiming for guys? just admit that anime fans are masochist already. damn people. stop blaming something that not even relevant. speak for yourself. The fact that this thread exists already shows that it does not neccessarily apply to "all" anime fans, not even the "majority" of anime fans. |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
Unyilkdr said: this type anime will not made if it not sell. just saying. I am not denying that there are many people who do it for that. It's just not appropriate to generalize it too muc. Hope that clears up this misunderstanding. |
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Grey-Zone said: It's ment to be repulsive to the audience. Anyone who feels aroused by that is literally a piece of sh*t of a human being. Saying that both producers and audience are "a piece of sh*t of human being" is anything but reasonable, escpacially if you consider the rest of the show. I literally read your quote a few times to see where she called the audience names. She didn't. She didn't even say the audience was aroused. She said it was directed like it was meant to be arousing. There's no explaination of how the scene achieved this quality - true, but it's a legitimate criticism. I'm not saying that the scene in question is or not. I'm saying that it's definitely possible for a sexual harassment scene to be directed in a manner that makes it arousing. Focus on certain parts, use certain angles, emphasize certain things and downplay others and you can make rape seem sexy. Figuring out how artists do that is part of being a critic. Game of Thrones is full of rape scenes with attention to details that make it read more like erotica. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
Grey-Zone said: we can't deny somthing that the truth. when this type anime keep made, another concept anime that we think good, but doesn't sell well will die. just look what happened with nichijou. only hope this type era can done fast and change with better era.I am not denying that there are many people who do it for that. It's just not appropriate to generalize it too muc. Hope that clears up this misunderstanding. |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| It's BS. |
TheBrainintheJar said: There's no explaination of how the scene achieved this quality - true, but it's a legitimate criticism. I'm not saying that the scene in question is or not. I'm saying that it's definitely possible for a sexual harassment scene to be directed in a manner that makes it arousing. Focus on certain parts, use certain angles, emphasize certain things and downplay others and you can make rape seem sexy. Figuring out how artists do that is part of being a critic. But the most important part of being a critic is actually not being biased. You have to your interpretation on what is shown, but she desperately tries to make her pre-determined interpretation to somehow fit the facts instead. Anyone who objectively looks at that scene would say: "It's there to show us what a douchebag Shinji is". You must be considerably disconnected from reality and common sense to interpret that scene as "it's there to arouse the viewers". A few instances of "fanservice" DO exist in the series, but it's really grasping at straws to make THAT particular scene out to be "arousing". I can only see it as extreme bias and/or an attempt to discredit the author and the staff. It shows lack of professionalism of the reviewer. |
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| Most badly written tsunderes who abuse the males are supposed to fit into the otaku fantasy, the fantasy being "that girl who hates me so much actually loves me." Otaku are viewed as undesirable, creepy, gross, etc. in Japan, so it's totally easy to understand that a normal girl would not like the otaku, thus is born the fantasy of a girl (usually a princess/popular/perfect girl to coincide with the "normal" girl irl being of a higher standing) who hits the MC and calls him names and all actually loving the guy, it is "therapeutic" in a way to otaku, I guess. |
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| Why do people yell at hunters for killing innocent animals, but will gladly eat a steak? |
| ohhh girllll |
| I find it pretty cute when a girl does this. And other guys like this too. |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
Tally1116 said: Why do people yell at hunters for killing innocent animals, but will gladly eat a steak? Because they eat meat for better nourishment. The yelling is only an excuse, a mask to hide the fact that they are actually, PLOT TWIST, sadistic toward plants. |
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Grey-Zone said: Tally1116 said: Why do people yell at hunters for killing innocent animals, but will gladly eat a steak? Because they eat meat for better nourishment. The yelling is only an excuse, a mask to hide the fact that they are actually, PLOT TWIST, sadistic toward plants. Your theory is very amusing Also, people should keep in mind that anime is intended for the enjoyment of an audience. Obviously, female tsunderes who are violent towards males have been successful in attracting an audience, or else they wouldn't keep making them. So ultimately the reason is you, the audience. |
Tally1116 said: Also, people should keep in mind that anime is intended for the enjoyment of an audience. Obviously, female tsunderes who are violent towards males have been successful in attracting an audience, or else they wouldn't keep making them. So ultimately the reason is you, the audience. Well, it's much less nowadays than 5-10 years ago, though. |
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chinesecartoonz said: Otaku are viewed as undesirable, creepy, gross, etc. in Japan, That's not really a thing anymore. They're becoming more accepted. and it seems that it's only creepy when it's a guy. =w= |
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Grey-Zone said: TheBrainintheJar said: There's no explaination of how the scene achieved this quality - true, but it's a legitimate criticism. I'm not saying that the scene in question is or not. I'm saying that it's definitely possible for a sexual harassment scene to be directed in a manner that makes it arousing. Focus on certain parts, use certain angles, emphasize certain things and downplay others and you can make rape seem sexy. Figuring out how artists do that is part of being a critic. But the most important part of being a critic is actually not being biased. You have to your interpretation on what is shown, but she desperately tries to make her pre-determined interpretation to somehow fit the facts instead. Anyone who objectively looks at that scene would say: "It's there to show us what a douchebag Shinji is". You must be considerably disconnected from reality and common sense to interpret that scene as "it's there to arouse the viewers". A few instances of "fanservice" DO exist in the series, but it's really grasping at straws to make THAT particular scene out to be "arousing". I can only see it as extreme bias and/or an attempt to discredit the author and the staff. It shows lack of professionalism of the reviewer. Everyone has a bias. Being a critic doesn't mean being unbiased but knowing how to explain and defend your opinion. Like her, you did not put any case as to why the scene is supposed to make us feel repulsed. You said nothing about direction or vibe or anything. You just said 'anyone who has common sense...' which can be said about anything. I can say that 'anyone who has common sense talks to bananas' but that wouldn't make it true. Even if she's wrong, it's legitimate to criticize a show for using sexual harassment as an attemp to tilltitate. It has nothing to do with female supremacy, matriarchy or girls out to get your fluids. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| So, I've started looking at this trope from a different angle: What if girls beat up dense MCs because the audience wishes they could do it themselves? ..................there's something to think about. XD Like, I am one of the few Nisekoi fans who DOESN'T hate Raku. I actually like him; he's a really good guy, treats girls well, and he's funny too. But sometimes I DO want to punch him. His density can be infuriating. |
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TheBrainintheJar said: Everyone has a bias. Being a critic doesn't mean being unbiased but knowing how to explain and defend your opinion. Like her, you did not put any case as to why the scene is supposed to make us feel repulsed. You said nothing about direction or vibe or anything. You just said 'anyone who has common sense...' which can be said about anything. I can say that 'anyone who has common sense talks to bananas' but that wouldn't make it true. Even if she's wrong, it's legitimate to criticize a show for using sexual harassment as an attemp to tilltitate. It has nothing to do with female supremacy, matriarchy or girls out to get your fluids. I guess you lack context for the discussion to lead anywhere... sometime ago the very same reviewer did a video of the source material taking scenes out of context and using an out of print and outdated version of the source material and the "review" just skips to scenes that to her seem sexist (out of context) and made a huge deal out of it. Not to mention such scenes only existed in about the first 1/6th of the source material and then didn't appear anymore... but what part did she "show"? Exactly, only this first 1/6th. Then she stated that the author Kinoko Nasu is a sexist. Right no "there are signs" or other things. She says, as if it's objective truth that Kinoko Nasu, just from playing through a game made by him can be classified personally. Can't exactly call her "professional" with that in mind and again she is being called the same way as people that fight in REAL LIFE against gender inequality. It's just ridiculous that such people get the same label. Anyway this discussion only leads to derail this thread. So we should stop this here. |
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| Sexism. |
| Jaywalker. |
Grey-Zone said: TheBrainintheJar said: Everyone has a bias. Being a critic doesn't mean being unbiased but knowing how to explain and defend your opinion. Like her, you did not put any case as to why the scene is supposed to make us feel repulsed. You said nothing about direction or vibe or anything. You just said 'anyone who has common sense...' which can be said about anything. I can say that 'anyone who has common sense talks to bananas' but that wouldn't make it true. Even if she's wrong, it's legitimate to criticize a show for using sexual harassment as an attemp to tilltitate. It has nothing to do with female supremacy, matriarchy or girls out to get your fluids. I guess you lack context for the discussion to lead anywhere... sometime ago the very same reviewer did a video of the source material taking scenes out of context and using an out of print and outdated version of the source material and the "review" just skips to scenes that to her seem sexist (out of context) and made a huge deal out of it. Not to mention such scenes only existed in about the first 1/6th of the source material and then didn't appear anymore... but what part did she "show"? Exactly, only this first 1/6th. Then she stated that the author Kinoko Nasu is a sexist. Right no "there are signs" or other things. She says, as if it's objective truth that Kinoko Nasu, just from playing through a game made by him can be classified personally. Can't exactly call her "professional" with that in mind and again she is being called the same way as people that fight in REAL LIFE against gender inequality. It's just ridiculous that such people get the same label. Anyway this discussion only leads to derail this thread. So we should stop this here. Well, if the purpose of the video is to focus on sexism/gender in the series it's obvious she'll skip to these scenes. Sexism is a big deal in my review of the new Mad Max - so I spend half the review talking about it. Just because the scenes appear only the beginning doesn't mean they're not worth commenting on. If they are such a small part though, I might say writing off the entire series is irrational - but I haven't seen the video so I can't tell. Art is communication. The things we create say something about us. If a person writes a lot of sexist books, it's logical to assume he's sexist. If I spend half the review of an action film discussing gender roles, it's logical to assume I care about the subject. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
| Yes but if the only "sexist-seeming" scenes (which have been removed in more recent versions of the VN) appear in the first 1/6th of the work and there even being a revelation that shows that the supposedly "sexist" scenes were merely an excuse for a completely different issue (that the reviewer never noticed) and using that to call author himself "sexist" based on that is really stretching it, escpacially since the same author also creates works with female protagonists (kara no kyoukai). I mean she even DELIBERATLY used an outdated version to make her point. The fact that her review would have much less impact if she used a more up-to-date version of the VN shows that she didn't really care much about the review, but just wanted people to react as strongly as possible. |
Grey-ZoneJun 11, 2015 1:59 PM
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Skyzblue said: Because those creepy ass otaku's like it that way.. ....Otaku's aren't always creepy. And yes it outrages me. People think that guys are strong and girls are weak, so guys can take all of the hits, but it really is bs. People are so sexist towards men, and no one realizes it. If a guy gets hit eh no big deal, but if a girl does, it's like committing murder. #meninistFTW |
| ♜♞♝♛♚♝♞♜ ♟♟♟♟♟♟♟♟ Join Me, Pawns! |
Grey-Zone said: Yes but if the only "sexist-seeming" scenes (which have been removed in more recent versions of the VN) appear in the first 1/6th of the work and there even being a revelation that shows that the supposedly "sexist" scenes were merely an excuse for a completely different issue (that the reviewer never noticed) and using that to call author himself "sexist" based on that is really stretching it, escpacially since the same author also creates works with female protagonists (kara no kyoukai). I mean she even DELIBERATLY used an outdated version to make her point. The fact that her review would have much less impact if she used a more up-to-date version of the VN shows that she didn't really care much about the review, but just wanted people to react as strongly as possible. Just because it was updated doesn't mean it's not worth commenting on the old one. Her comments would remain only relevant to the old version though. Female protagonists doesn't remove sexism. It's part of the 'strong female character' fallacy. The Mad Max film has all the women be the good guys, and it's still very chauvinistic - the only character who's allowed to be developed is male. This whole analyzing sexism thing is messy. You need to be very good at literary criticism first. I haven't seen people who know how to handle this subject, although Anita did a good job with video games. EDIT: Guy above me is right about how sexist this is towards men. It's an invisible sexism that's swept under the rug because of MALE PRIVILEGE. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
Cuckold said: Maybe they want to promote the true fact that girls should be allowed to bully guys irl too! >_< They aren't allowed to? |
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Grey-Zone said: As if. Girls bullying guys is justice.--Cuckold said: Maybe they want to promote the true fact that girls should be allowed to bully guys irl too! >_< They aren't allowed to? |
Grey-Zone said: Cuckold said: Maybe they want to promote the true fact that girls should be allowed to bully guys irl too! >_< They aren't allowed to? It's just difficult. When I try to smack guys, they laugh at me because I can't reach their stupid face. XP |
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| I'm really half-kidding. The guy in question said something like "Women are trash". So I tried to hit him. But I won't do that unless I'm seriously angry at someone. He said that and I snapped. Maybe that doesn't justify a slap on the face....but at the time, I felt it did. |
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| If you honestly can't figure it out for yourself then I'd suggest you stop watching anime. |
| One of the worst tropes ever. I don't actually have a problem with girls beating up dudes in of itself. It's how it's presented, and how people react to it. It's clearly presented as cute. They want you to like this girl, to find her cute, and to buy merchandise with her adorable lil' tsundere face on it. And it works, people worship these jackasses. And that's just the fanbase. Even in-universe the characters usually enable everything these characters actions. Hell, sometimes the MC themselves actively pursue a relationship with them like some bizarre case of Stockholm syndrome. If that sounds like an exaggeration it's because that's how they try and portray it, they try to present it as "cute and heartwarming" as though it makes even a modicum of sense. If all of these girls were presented as villains/antagonists in-universe, I would have zero problem with it. After all I like characters who have done worse things. But instead they're heroines and even love interests most of the time. I can't think of anything else where there's such a clear distinction between a character's actions and how they're presented by the author/received by other characters. What makes it all worse if how often girls are stronger than guys in anime. I'm a big fan of strong girls in anime in general, just not when they're bullies. Using an objective "don't bully the weak" standard, which society usually adheres to, some of these cases are effectively equivalent to a 6'5 guy beating up on a 5'2 girl in terms of power difference. But of course if that was portrayed in anime, the guy would immediately deemed a disgusting villain (rightly so too, given it was a unprovoked attack on someone weaker than him). I don't dislike tsunderes specifically. The main kind of character I dislike is one who clearly does bad things, but is still portrayed positively in-universe and thus adored in the fanbase too. There just happens to be a lot of crossover between this and tsunderes, though there are non-tsunderes I dislike too. It's usually girls, simply because it's much harder to get away with this for a male character. It would take some huge balls for a writer to try and present a guy who beats up on a girl for no reason (or even worse something that's actually their own fault - this is what happens a lot of the time) as a wonderful guy everyone loves and we should too. With girls it's very easy, even a bad writer can get away with it if he attaches a cute face. |
| It's funny watching their faces go all anime, and also you're wondering why the dude is putting up with it, which shows that he is actually a gentleman because he is not hitting the girl... and lets be honest, if you use that logic whats your view on bugs bunny cartoons? |
| The Inzaniac |
Inzaniac said: It's funny watching their faces go all anime, and also you're wondering why the dude is putting up with it, which shows that he is actually a gentleman because he is not hitting the girl... and lets be honest, if you use that logic whats your view on bugs bunny cartoons? equality!  |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
-hydro said: One of the worst tropes ever. I don't actually have a problem with girls beating up dudes in of itself. It's how it's presented, and how people react to it. It's clearly presented as cute. They want you to like this girl, to find her cute, and to buy merchandise with her adorable lil' tsundere face on it. And it works, people worship these jackasses. And that's just the fanbase. Even in-universe the characters usually enable everything these characters actions. Hell, sometimes the MC themselves actively pursue a relationship with them like some bizarre case of Stockholm syndrome. If that sounds like an exaggeration it's because that's how they try and portray it, they try to present it as "cute and heartwarming" as though it makes even a modicum of sense. If all of these girls were presented as villains/antagonists in-universe, I would have zero problem with it. After all I like characters who have done worse things. But instead they're heroines and even love interests most of the time. I can't think of anything else where there's such a clear distinction between a character's actions and how they're presented by the author/received by other characters. What makes it all worse if how often girls are stronger than guys in anime. I'm a big fan of strong girls in anime in general, just not when they're bullies. Using an objective "don't bully the weak" standard, which society usually adheres to, some of these cases are effectively equivalent to a 6'5 guy beating up on a 5'2 girl in terms of power difference. But of course if that was portrayed in anime, the guy would immediately deemed a disgusting villain (rightly so too, given it was a unprovoked attack on someone weaker than him). I don't dislike tsunderes specifically. The main kind of character I dislike is one who clearly does bad things, but is still portrayed positively in-universe and thus adored in the fanbase too. There just happens to be a lot of crossover between this and tsunderes, though there are non-tsunderes I dislike too. It's usually girls, simply because it's much harder to get away with this for a male character. It would take some huge balls for a writer to try and present a guy who beats up on a girl for no reason (or even worse something that's actually their own fault - this is what happens a lot of the time) as a wonderful guy everyone loves and we should too. With girls it's very easy, even a bad writer can get away with it if he attaches a cute face. Tsundere is a pretty insulting fetish. It's all about 'conquering the strong woman'. It's so much sexier when she hates you before she loves you. It doesn't come off that creepy in anime but it's there. Tsunderes often decieve you into think there's a cool character in there somewhere. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
TheBrainintheJar said: Tsunderes often decieve you into think there's a cool character in there somewhere. Normally there IS. Tsundere isn't a fetish though. It's a trope. There's nothing insulting about it, really. |
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| The reason why girls beat up guys in anime for no reason and everyone is fine with it is because that's what the authors and/or animators chose to do. |
Rebel_Roo said: i think it fans who want it.The reason why girls beat up guys in anime for no reason and everyone is fine with it is because that's what the authors and/or animators chose to do. |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
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