CuteAssTiger said: DBZisUnderrated said: I'm very glad that people are starting to notice the facade Attack on Titan puts on. Most of the major characters don't die, could anybody name at least three major characters that die? At first glance, it looks like the series has a lot of deaths, but I can't even name three characters that have died. Maybe one or two. Mhh let's see Sasha,hanji,Erwin,Ymir,Berthold,Marco,The Levi Squad is arguably part of the major characters, The Marley Party characters that join later on in the Story are Major characters and a lot of them die too , Hannes may not be a Major character but a important one , grisha has a big role and his own backstory and he is also dead So yeah all in all calling attack on titans approach to consequences a facade is delusional at best Dude you are spoiling alot 25 character limit |
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Play2X said: CuteAssTiger said: Mhh let's see Sasha,hanji,Erwin,Ymir,Berthold,Marco,The Levi Squad is arguably part of the major characters, The Marley Party characters that join later on in the Story are Major characters and a lot of them die too , Hannes may not be a Major character but a important one , grisha has a big role and his own backstory and he is also dead So yeah all in all calling attack on titans approach to consequences a facade is delusional at best Except that the MAIN characters are Armin, Eren and Mikasa. Those three. Everyone else is a side character. Are those 3 dead yet? Tiger said major characters not main characters. |
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| ^^ This. i'm waiting for the ending of the manga to judge, because if the main trio (that i don't even like that much) survive while everyone else dies in random ways then i'll be like "meh you're right" |
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| Hmm. I think it should be used correctly, but never overdone. Attack on Titan seems all death, but I think it adds to how dangerous the world really is, not really an emotional aspect. I've seen series that are way less forgiving with their characters. It's slightly overdone, but it's gotten a lot better over time. But you can't have no deaths at all. My biggest grope with Fairy Tail is that it can't bear itself to kill even a single character. Even dead characters aren't actually dead. |
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Hrybami said: I 100% agree. I want to punch every One Piece fans who wished Oda to kill Luffy within the current Wano arc and also when he was fighting with Katakuri. Same I don't know why some fans want luffy to die |
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Play2X said: I am aware that he used a different word, and as I explained a bit further up here, there is no such thing as a Major or Minor characters, only Main and Supportive. And well, our dear MCs seem to have a severe case of Plot Armour. So you are saying that killing of someone that has a lot of screentime but isn't among the main trio is the same as killing of someone that barely has any screentime, but still is a named character? |
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| I think the OP got it backwards: killing off your characters and then bringing them back again is lazy writing. The reason why dead characters usually return is because most writers don't know how to continue the plot without that character, also they don't want to risk that people start boycotting the series because the most popular character got killed. Also, this is just a theory, but I believe most mainstream audiences want important characters to always survive anyway (even if it makes no sense), so writers prefer to pander to the masses instead of some niche audience. |
AshitaNoJonasNov 4, 2020 10:31 AM
AwokenStroken said: Order-Sol said: YEAH! ONE PIECE! KILLING ????? FOR NO REASON ONE PIECE! Can you add a spoiler tag much appreciated :) I wasn't going but I did. He got killed in one piece like 11 years ago. |
| i agree with this, it might make it good depending on how the story goes but mostly it's not the best like for example Akame Ga Kill, that show had characters dying like every episode and it just made it boring because your just expecting for everyone to die and it's not even a surprise anymore, same goes for Magical Girl Raising Project. |
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Zeroflamez said: StealthBlack said: I gave Akame Ga Kill and DevilMan Crybaby an extra 1 rating for having the guts to say F your feelings, this is that type of show. Akame Ga Kill deaths weren't even done well though lol so cheesy. The first one shocked me, but I was relatively new to anime at that time. |
| We are only here for a short amount of time, I want to waste as much of that time possible doing nonsense |
| [quote=Play2X message=61066726] YeagerBonebone said: Play2X said: I am aware that he used a different word, and as I explained a bit further up here, there is no such thing as a Major or Minor characters, only Main and Supportive. And well, our dear MCs seem to have a severe case of Plot Armour. So you are saying that killing of someone that has a lot of screentime but isn't among the main trio is the same as killing of someone that barely has any screentime, but still is a named character? For the purpose of storytelling it doesn't really make much difference, yes. I completely disagree. The more screentime, dialogue and relevance a character has to a story the more important he/she is. If a character with a major role in a story dies that isn't among the "main" characters it does make alot more difference than if a character that has a name but is not relevant to the story dies. |
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Play2X said: CuteAssTiger said: Mhh let's see Sasha,hanji,Erwin,Ymir,Berthold,Marco,The Levi Squad is arguably part of the major characters, The Marley Party characters that join later on in the Story are Major characters and a lot of them die too , Hannes may not be a Major character but a important one , grisha has a big role and his own backstory and he is also dead So yeah all in all calling attack on titans approach to consequences a facade is delusional at best Except that the MAIN characters are Armin, Eren and Mikasa. Those three. Everyone else is a side character. Are those 3 dead yet? The talk was about major character. Whenever or not they are specifically the main characters is a really arbitrary barrier to this argument Following that logic no story would have consequend writing simply for the fact that there are barely any stories that kill of their actual main character before the end of the story That's a strawman argument at best. |
YeagerBonebone said: CuteAssTiger said: Mhh let's see Sasha,hanji,Erwin,Ymir,Berthold,Marco,The Levi Squad is arguably part of the major characters, The Marley Party characters that join later on in the Story are Major characters and a lot of them die too , Hannes may not be a Major character but a important one , grisha has a big role and his own backstory and he is also dead So yeah all in all calling attack on titans approach to consequences a facade is delusional at best Dude you are spoiling alot 25 character limit Well the dude kinda asked for it Sry thought |
| ofcourse it does EX- DEVILMAN CRYBABY it makes it better all of a sudden |
 OBAMOS |
You should spoiler tag it. 25 character limit |
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| Deaths are usually made just for shock or sentimental value, but if they aren´t done correctly is just like seeing flies falling down. Gantz is a prime example of that, some deaths are truly awful, but in the end you just see people dying that you didn´t even knew existed, so it´s just feels like edge, or for the sake of it. KnY does that a lot too, but then there´s the opposite side where no one dies like FT and One Piece, and sometimes it is even worse that way. |
| na dunno, it depends on the circumstances and the writing, sure some of these deaths are dull, and not shocking more like edgy and lame. but plot armor shonen characters are far more annoying. Nurguburu said: Hey, keeping alive your characters doesn't make your story good haha nice^^ |
Play2X said: CuteAssTiger said: The talk was about major character. Whenever or not they are specifically the main characters is a really arbitrary barrier to this argument Following that logic no story would have consequend writing simply for the fact that there are barely any stories that kill of their actual main character before the end of the story That's a strawman argument at best. First, consequences by no means always have to be people dying. Thats just plain dumb to begin with. Also, of course there are stories that kill their main characters. Vikings and GoT both did that (even though I'm not a huge fan of that, or killing of characters in general). But I feel like we're turning in circles here. Allow me to bail out on this one. Nobody said that's the only way The strawman keep comming dude It would be just plain dumb to have a setting like attack on titan and not have people dying. If the story tells me the titans are scary and dangerous but that never actually is true then we run into a lot of writing issues Next off GOT for example has a multitude of many characters that can be killed off. Would AOT be better if we tagged the "main character" sticker onto 3 of the dead Characters I listed above ? Hardly so It's easy to argue that most Characters in game of thrones are major characters rather then being main characters. But you see how that doesn't change anything about the impact of their death aye ? It's just an arbitrary title that doesn't change the argument at hand I honestly don't see how this is going in circles at all So far you just put the main character sticker on the argument and people explained how that doesn't matter considering the argument was about major characters and their deaths aren't less impactful simply by missing that arbitrary sticker It's not going in circles at all But you can bail out whenever you want. Nobody is going to take you hostage or anything |
You should explain to me how to do that #25 character limit Jokes aside ,that would be helpful and I would appreciate it . |
| not disagreeing but, i personally think every character in AOT should still be alive like, wtf only large man eating giants which can't be killed normally and even with the right gear is still very hard to kill, like tf just one shot the bastards or like don't die, i think the deaths in AOT r just forced or not very realistic at all as well. |
| In the case of Shingeki no Kyojin, it's a horror anime, so it really would make no sense for the characters not to die. In the case of Yakusoku no Never land, on the other hand: |
| “Right is right even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.” ― Saint Augustine |
| Problem with these threads is that I can never be sure whether I should talk about the example given (AoT) or the title. Anwyay, no, killing a character won't instantly make your story better. But some authors actually manage to write meaningful characters who have meanigful deaths that impact other characters, the narrative or provide arguments for their themes. Every death I can remember in AoT meant something for the story or the characters. They had consequences and motives to happen. That's by no means a lazy task for a writer to do. |
CuteAssTiger said: You should explain to me how to do that #25 character limit Jokes aside ,that would be helpful and I would appreciate it . When you press "Quick Reply" there are 3 options below your text "bubble". The first one says "submit" the second one says "cancel" and the third one says "BBCode". Press on the third one and you will find the instructions you need. |
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Mummykun said: In the case of Shingeki no Kyojin, it's a horror anime, so it really would make no sense for the characters not to die. In the case of Yakusoku no Never land, on the other hand: To be fair the kids were supposed to be super smart. And for the most part they got out of situations by using their big brain but yeah the author really protects those kids . Not gonna spoil the end but it's basically " this bad thing is gonna happen if you do that" and then there is a really cheap solution so nothing bad happens after all The best part of the story was pretty much everything that the anime covered |
| Yes it does, but you have to handle it well. |
| Jolyne Kuujou + Steel Ball Run Universe = Billie Eillish |
Sheklon said: Problem with these threads is that I can never be sure whether I should talk about the example given (AoT) or the title. Anwyay, no, killing a character won't instantly make your story better. But some authors actually manage to write meaningful characters who have meanigful deaths that impact other characters, the narrative or provide arguments for their themes. Every death I can remember in AoT meant something for the story or the characters. They had consequences and motives to happen. That's by no means a lazy task for a writer to do. ^^ Wish I could've worded my initial comment on the thread like this, totally agree w what you said! :) |
"It wasn't your fault. You do not have to carry that burden." Violet Evergarden  |
YeagerBonebone said: CuteAssTiger said: You should explain to me how to do that #25 character limit Jokes aside ,that would be helpful and I would appreciate it . When you press "Quick Reply" there are 3 options below your text "bubble". The first one says "submit" the second one says "cancel" and the third one says "BBCode". Press on the third one and you will find the instructions you need. I'm not seeing it tbh but might be because I'm on mobile right now. Or maybe I'm just blind. Sry |
CuteAssTiger said: I'm not seeing it tbh but might be because I'm on mobile right now. Or maybe I'm just blind. Sry You just need to write (spoiler)Text(/spoiler), except instead of () you use []. Image of the BBCode button: https://i.imgur.com/midJfsx.png vCalamity said: Sheklon said: Problem with these threads is that I can never be sure whether I should talk about the example given (AoT) or the title. Anwyay, no, killing a character won't instantly make your story better. But some authors actually manage to write meaningful characters who have meanigful deaths that impact other characters, the narrative or provide arguments for their themes. Every death I can remember in AoT meant something for the story or the characters. They had consequences and motives to happen. That's by no means a lazy task for a writer to do. ^^ Wish I could've worded my initial comment on the thread like this, totally agree w what you said! :) Well, I'm glad to be able to voice the opinion of someone who thinks like me. I think others said the same too in different words, hopefully you'll get ideas in this thread to improve next time you find yourself having to talk about the same or a similar topic. |
| @sheklon Thank you. My keyboard allows me to add common phrae s so I'm gonna include it there so I can access it whenever needed |
| I get what you're saying. I personally think it's all down to execution. Character deaths can be impactful and amazing if executed well, but killing off like 60-70% of the main cast for no real meaningful reason kinda turns me off a show. |
| "The world is not beautiful, therefore it is." -Kino's Journey |
Play2X said: CuteAssTiger said: Nobody said that's the only way The strawman keep comming dude It would be just plain dumb to have a setting like attack on titan and not have people dying. If the story tells me the titans are scary and dangerous but that never actually is true then we run into a lot of writing issues Next off GOT for example has a multitude of many characters that can be killed off. Would AOT be better if we tagged the "main character" sticker onto 3 of the dead Characters I listed above ? Hardly so It's easy to argue that most Characters in game of thrones are major characters rather then being main characters. But you see how that doesn't change anything about the impact of their death aye ? It's just an arbitrary title that doesn't change the argument at hand I honestly don't see how this is going in circles at all So far you just put the main character sticker on the argument and people explained how that doesn't matter considering the argument was about major characters and their deaths aren't less impactful simply by missing that arbitrary sticker It's not going in circles at all But you can bail out whenever you want. Nobody is going to take you hostage or anything I can't really bail if you keep arguing... First off, neither the first nor the second argument is a strawman argument. There is a huge difference in what you call major characters and what I call main characters, and they have different purposes in the story. You calling my arguments strawman arguments in itself is doing strawman arguments. But whatever. No, a Setting like Shingeki no Kyojin without people dying wouldn't make it a dumb story or whatever you called it. It would merely be a different kind of story. Like, you know? A story of hope, in which people don't die but survive hardships through power of friendship? This, in anime circles is called a shounen story. Just because you, Mr. Edgelord, might not like that kind of story, doesn't mean it has no reason to exist nor that it would be a stupid story. Also, the last time I checked Game of Thrones the Main Character at that point, Ned Stark, did die. And because he was the main character, his death worked as an inciting incident to the rest of the characters, causing them to develop and become the new main characters of the show. And as much as I hate both GoT and SnK, SnK could've done that with Eren as well. Unfortunately for you, the only really relevent death in the story is that one death to a person I would label the actual Main Character. Sure, those other deaths do SOMETHING, but it doesn't change the main arc of the story. Sad for you that you can't see that circle, when we're literally going, "You're wrong! No, you are!" at this point, but ok. When the point being argued is major character deaths and you change that arbitrarily to be talking about main characters then that is by definition a strawman Argument A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, meanwhile the proper idea of argument under discussion was not addressed or properly refuted. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man". "There is a huge difference in what you call major characters and what I call main characters, and they have different purposes in the story" I thought that argument was going somewhere but I guess it's just going to stay a statement .well whatever The premise of attack on titan requires people to die . Attack on titan is the very opposite of "Like, you know? A story of hope, in which people don't die but survive hardships through power of friendship?" What kind of argument is that ?. That's like saying a zombie movie where litterally nobody, nobody, not a single human dies or gets infected is not stupid if you make it a bad shonen Instead . That's like saying a Car design would not be a bad car design if you make it a shower instead. You fail the aspect that makes it a car in the first place. The premise, the very idea of SNK is scary big titans eating people , your suggestion simply fails before the story itself even begins. If you want to tell a story about big scary titans eating people you have to convince the audience that they are big,scary and dangerous to humans. And how do you do that ? Well definitely not by making an anime for children about the power of friendship. It's actually kinda impressive that I have to explain that. Unfortunately for you,multiple people here have already explained to you how the main character sticker doesn't change the argument. Why bring up a dead argument ? Killing of Ned was a brilliant move to convince the audience of this being a serious story. But whenever or not Ned would be the main character or a major character would have had the same effect. At the same time something being a good move in one story doesn't mean it is required or helpful in another story SNK could have had an additional character that was the main,died, and then we got eren. Would that have helped ? Not really . It's the same situation as sticking the main character sticker onto 3 additional deaths as we previously established. It would have been arbitrary in the previous example and it's also arbitrary now . "Sure, those other deaths do SOMETHING, but it doesn't change the main arc of the story." You may want to look into basic story writing a little bit. The purpose of any given death is not to change the main arc of a story It can be used to do that. But that doesn't mean that that has to be done . The deaths in aot obviously serve to sell the idea and atmosphere of SNK. As explained previously. Just because one aspect of something works well in one story doesn't mean that is how you have to apply that thing to everything else. It's not really people saying " you are wrong" Vs " you are wrong" It's people bringing up really good reasons why certain things are certain ways while your points where that you consider something to be different from something else ( wich doesn't change the argument at hand) and making suggestion that fail the basic idea of a story Go figure wich one is propably "wrong" Every form of opposition argumentation is going to propose reason why an opposing idea might be wrong. But that does not mean it's going in a circle. If that was the case no argumentation of any form has any point |
CuteAssTigerNov 4, 2020 2:23 PM
| If there's emotional payoff the death scene can be really impactful, but if the writer lacks balls to actually kill characters and instead brings them back all that goes to waste and I start to question why even include death then. Other option is that those death scenes are fun af then I'm all in. |
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Play2X said: CuteAssTiger said: When the point being argued is major character deaths and you change that arbitrarily to be talking about main characters then that is by definition a strawman Argument A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, meanwhile the proper idea of argument under discussion was not addressed or properly refuted. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man". "There is a huge difference in what you call major characters and what I call main characters, and they have different purposes in the story" I thought that argument was going somewhere but I guess it's just going to stay a statement .well whatever The premise of attack on titan requires people to die . Attack on titan is the very opposite of "Like, you know? A story of hope, in which people don't die but survive hardships through power of friendship?" What kind of argument is that ?. That's like saying a zombie movie where litterally nobody, nobody, not a single human dies or gets infected is not stupid if you make it a bad shonen Instead . That's like saying a Car design would not be a bad car design if you make it a shower instead. You fail the aspect that makes it a car in the first place. The premise, the very idea of SNK is scary big titans eating people , your suggestion simply fails before the story itself even begins. If you want to tell a story about big scary titans eating people you have to convince the audience that they are big,scary and dangerous to humans. And how do you do that ? Well definitely not by making an anime for children about the power of friendship. It's actually kinda impressive that I have to explain that. Unfortunately for you,multiple people here have already explained to you how the main character sticker doesn't change the argument. Why bring up a dead argument ? Killing of Ned was a brilliant move to convince the audience of this being a serious story. But whenever or not Ned would be the main character or a major character would have had the same effect. At the same time something being a good move in one story doesn't mean it is required or helpful in another story SNK could have had an additional character that was the main,died, and then we got eren. Would that have helped ? Not really . It's the same situation as sticking the main character sticker onto 3 additional deaths as we previously established. It would have been arbitrary in the previous example and it's also arbitrary now . "Sure, those other deaths do SOMETHING, but it doesn't change the main arc of the story." You may want to look into basic story writing a little bit. The purpose of any given death is not to change the main arc of a story It can be used to do that. But that doesn't mean that that has to be done . The deaths in aot obviously serve to sell the idea and atmosphere of SNK. As explained previously. Just because one aspect of something works well in one story doesn't mean that is how you have to apply that thing to everything else. It's not really people saying " you are wrong" Vs " you are wrong" It's people bringing up really good reasons why certain things are certain ways while your points where that you consider something to be different from something else ( wich doesn't change the argument at hand) and making suggestion that fail the basic idea of a story Go figure wich one is propably "wrong" Every form of opposition argumentation is going to propose reason why an opposing idea might be wrong. But that does not mean it's going in a circle. If that was the case no argumentation of any form has any point At this point I'm genuine just amazed how much bull you say. Like I said, this argument is going nowhere. You seem to neither understand the difference between a main character opposing what the former person called a mayor character, nor do you seem to understand the basics of writing. All I can see from your arguments is that you want dead people in your shows, because apparently its the only way for you to see any consequences, probably because your senses has dulled so far that you don't recognize anything beyond blood splattering on your screen as a consequence to begin with. So far every point I made just got ridiculed by you, without giving anything worthwhile yourself. Like I said, this is going in circles, and everything beyond this point will only result in us going at each others throats, so I will stop here. Good day to you. "At this point I'm genuine just amazed how much bull you say. Like I said, this argument is going nowhere. You seem to neither understand the difference between a main character opposing what the former person called a mayor character, nor do you seem to understand the basics of writing" Ah yes another statement without going so far to make an actual argument out of it. The writing line is especially rich given what was already established. "All I can see from your arguments is that you want dead people in your shows, because apparently its the only way for you to see any consequences, probably because your senses has dulled so far that you don't recognize anything beyond blood splattering on your screen as a consequence to begin with" Let's just ignore the already existing explanation as to why this is in that context. If you can't counter the truth just ignore it and start making things up about the other person ,I guess "without giving anything worthwhile yourself." Let's just ignore all the structured arguments . When you can't counter truth just ignore it , I guess? With that kind of argumentation you will propably be able to make a circle out of everything. But if you want to leave do so. Nobody is taking you hostage |
| My friend, you have discovered what I like to call the “Cowboy Bebop Syndrome”. What is this bizarre disease that infects certain anime series you ask? Simply put, it means nearly every side character introduced in the series gets killed off and, in bad cases, some lead cast members die off as well. I remember thinking the first time I watched Cowboy Bebop “Do any side characters NOT get killed off?!” It was yet another attempt by the show to come across as “deep”, yet it just came across as grim and frustrating to me. |
CuteAssTiger said: YeagerBonebone said: When you press "Quick Reply" there are 3 options below your text "bubble". The first one says "submit" the second one says "cancel" and the third one says "BBCode". Press on the third one and you will find the instructions you need. I'm not seeing it tbh but might be because I'm on mobile right now. Or maybe I'm just blind. Sry  Press "quick reply" at the bottom left of the image first.  Then press "BBCode" next to the "Cancel" button. Once you have done that you will find the instructions you need to make spoiler tags. |
YeagerBoneboneNov 4, 2020 6:43 PM
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I liked the Deaths at first. They caught me off guard but then I realized the only thing keeping me tuned in was to see who would die next. Then the deaths just got more and more cheap and the story and characters got more and more edgy. Best thing to come out of Akame Ga Kill is Esdeath. |
| Even though I love AOT, I somewhat see where you're coming from. |
on 
| Can be said the same way dead/alive aslong as its logical and deepens the story |
 Made by k3ti |
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