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| What is wrong with these VN players, the episode was awesome, i can't wait to see that fight! I'm super hype! 4/5 |
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iNoto-san said: What is wrong with these VN players, the episode was awesome, i can't wait to see that fight! I'm super hype! 4/5 Tell me then, AO viewer, with the Archer flashbacks, who got more characterized, Shirou or Archer? |
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Drake1000 said: Rahkshilord said: Hyperbole attempting to get my point through the wall of salt, shirou's ideals do not change in fate or ubw, they are the same ideals. His inner thoughts about the ideals are what differs, in one he accepts them as they are and the other he accepts they're flawed but refuses to give up. HF is the only route where his ideals actually change. "- What was the theme you are trying to express? Nasu: The main theme is "conquering oneself." There are three story lines in Fate, each has a different themes. The first one is the "oneself as an ideal." The second one is "struggling with oneself as an ideal." The third one is "the friction with real and ideal." This game is describing the growth of the main character Emiya Shirou. The first storyline shows his slanted mind, the next storyline shows his resolve, and the last storyline gives another resolution for him as a human. All three storylines are essentially equal, but they have different forms." yes, shirou in ubw STRUGGLES with his ideal, his ideal that he does not actually give up on at the end. the route's theme is totally different to the fate route, but his ideals themselves are NOT. |
Zeally said: Hero of Justice/ saving everyone is such an overused concept. Please kill yourself Shirou I just want to see shit blow up pls You will probably be dissapointed then..the show is not about shit blowing up :) |
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damastah said: iNoto-san said: What is wrong with these VN players, the episode was awesome, i can't wait to see that fight! I'm super hype! 4/5 Tell me then, AO viewer, with the Archer flashbacks, who got more characterized, Shirou or Archer? Both characters, we get to see why archer really want to kill his old self. |
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damastah said: The same as in the VN during the same scene, Archer. But it heavily spills over to Shirou.iNoto-san said: What is wrong with these VN players, the episode was awesome, i can't wait to see that fight! I'm super hype! 4/5 Tell me then, AO viewer, with the Archer flashbacks, who got more characterized, Shirou or Archer? |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
damastah said: iNoto-san said: What is wrong with these VN players, the episode was awesome, i can't wait to see that fight! I'm super hype! 4/5 Tell me then, AO viewer, with the Archer flashbacks, who got more characterized, Shirou or Archer? archer duhhh :| but then again archer > shirou ..... but that is just me >_> |
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WAD1992 said: damastah said: Tell me then, AO viewer, with the Archer flashbacks, who got more characterized, Shirou or Archer? archer duhhh :| but then again archer > shirou ..... but that is just me >_> Lmao Wad |
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chat77 said: Zeally said: Hero of Justice/ saving everyone is such an overused concept. Please kill yourself Shirou I just want to see shit blow up pls You will probably be dissapointed then..the show is not about shit blowing up :) lol .... now it is :P |
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iNoto-san said: damastah said: Tell me then, AO viewer, with the Archer flashbacks, who got more characterized, Shirou or Archer? Both characters, we get to see why archer really want to kill his old self. Which only matters to archer. Archer's past is Shirou. Shirou's future is UNDEFINED. Archer is Shirou but Shirou is NOT Archer, so characterization to Archer does absolutely NOTHING to Shirou. Please do tell me what is Shirou's ideology that he stands for in this fight? What is he defending? What point of view does he have now and how is it different from the first episode? Why is he angry at Archer? Why can't he give up his ideal? |
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| Is it... Emiya theme I was hearing? :D Oh man, next episode is going to be awesome. Lancer class really is a shitty class, uh? That E luck... You can't do anything that much luck. Kirei is such a master troll, he never saw it coming. Neither did Tohsaka. Shinji face getting crushed by Lancer fist was so satisfying that I had to rewind and check back the frames. Now, can he just die already? That fucking motherfucker has nothing for him. Well, now that everyone know who is Archer... It's a surprise that it was Kiritsugu, RIGHT?!! Ah, just kidding, such a shitty joke. Anyway, I thought the way they did the whole scene was great. I always love how Saber misunderstand Archer motivation. He doesn't want to redeem himself from his sin, he just want to disappear. That's those kind of moment where I ask myself if it would be that great to be eternal... Living an eternity in pain and bitterness seem way worse than death. |
| «Time is passing so quickly. Right now, I feel like complaining to Einstein. Whether time is slow or fast depends on perception. Relativity theory is so romantic. And so sad.» - Kurisu Makise a.k.a. The Zombie |
Rahkshilord said: WrongPriest said: he's not really 100% correct though you're right, I'm also really terrible at getting the point of my arguments across in text, if this was real life i could easily explain what I mean. all I'm saying is some people here are EXTREMELY exaggerating the flaws based on preconceptions about the show. I'm fully willing to retract any statements i made if I'm totally proven wrong, memory is a weird thing that can get stuff wrong very easily. That's a given. I deleted my comment because I didn't want to pick sides in this but I see you noticed it. It's nowhere near as bad as this amount of backlash deserves but it's certainly not perfect either. also knk6 was shit :3 |
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| Basically, this episode wouldn't have so many expositions if Shirou's characterization wasn't so rushed/changed previously. The way I see it, now ufo just trying to pander Archer's fans in a bad portrayal of anime. But well, if you want your 'perfect' adaptation of the whole thing maybe ufo should consider making this anime 40 episodes (at the cost of making things even more boring for VN readers). |
CookingPriest said: iNoto-san said: Both characters, we get to see why archer really want to kill his old self. Which only matters to archer. Archer's past is Shirou. Shirou's future is UNDEFINED. Archer is Shirou but Shirou is NOT Archer, so characterization to Archer does absolutely NOTHING to Shirou. AAAND Now you see why I asked the question. Kudos to Fai. With the way Shirou's characterization has gone, at this point he is kinda doohickey going into The Answer. |
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| And this is why they should've animated Fate route :) Alls well that ends well. |
The sun is a deadly laser |
CookingPriest said: Archer is Shirou but Shirou is NOT Archer. they are entirelly separate beings. Maybe if you actually payed any attention you'd know that the possibility for Shirou to become Archer is kind of the entire fucking point of Archer's existence at this point. Different beings yes, but Shirou's path leads to him becoming Archer. That's kind of the reason that Archer is doing what he's doing. Jesus christ. CookingPriest said: YEs in VN. IN VN at this point we also already have enough to understand Shirou's ideology, how it changed through course of UBW andw here is coming from. In here, they NEEDED to add something. They did not. Do they need to spell out Shirou's ideals and beliefs for you any more than they already have? Even if we take out how they've been doing that since the first episode of the first season and relegate ourselves only to what Archer recounts, let's make it clear that what Archer is recounting is a result of him continuing down Shirou's path and becoming who he is. Do you want them to have Shirou personally write down his ideals on a piece of plyboard in the show so you actually get this? CookingPriest said: Archer Shirou, Fate Shirou, UBW Shirou, HF Shirou are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PEOPLE with DIFFERENT beliefs and paths. This is just plain wrong. With the exception of Heaven's Feel Shirou, every single iteration of Shirou is THE SAME SHIROU EMIYA before the respective route's happenings, or in Archer's case, the future happened. Every single one of them was involved in the great fire at the end of the 4th HGW, every single one was saved by Kiritsugu, every single one had Kiritsugu's ideals passed on to them, and every single one enters the 5th HGW with the same basic ideals. The only difference between any of them is how the events shape their ideals. Only in Heaven's Feel does Shirou have the explicit possibility of entirely dropping his ideals towards any good ending. |
| Best thing about this episode is Kirei coming back. Way to many flashbacks that don't show anything or with Saber where it shouldn't be there.Why doesn't it show Shirou's ideals? 2/5 |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
CookingPriest said: iNoto-san said: Both characters, we get to see why archer really want to kill his old self. Which only matters to archer. Archer's past is Shirou. Shirou's future is UNDEFINED. Archer is Shirou but Shirou is NOT Archer, so characterization to Archer does absolutely NOTHING to Shirou. Please do tell me what is Shirou's ideology that he stands for in this fight? What is he defending? What point of view does he have now and how is it different from the first episode? Why is he angry at Archer? Why can't he give up his ideal? mmmmm, so who said this is ALL ABOUT shirou in the first place??!??! archa is a character too man !!! and his characterization matters JUST as much. i mean we understood monotonous shirou from fukin day one -_- but we still needed to get archa ..... and thats what UBW does. just sayin .... |
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CookingPriest said: iNoto-san said: Both characters, we get to see why archer really want to kill his old self. Which only matters to archer. Archer's past is Shirou. Shirou's future is UNDEFINED. Archer is Shirou but Shirou is NOT Archer, so characterization to Archer does absolutely NOTHING to Shirou. Sure it does. One still believes in his ideal, and the other is cynical |
Rahkshilord said: I don't understand the extreme salt, as a guy who's read the visual novel completely through twice this is basically the best adaption you could hope for, it suffers the same flaws literally every single vn anime has, i don't see people complaining about this shit in steins;gate when it has basically the same problems. the only issue i've had so far is weird pacing in a few episodes of this season and the very botched fight scene with berserker. Here is something important of not regarding Shirou's characterization that the *priests are forgetting, first of all it's nearly all explained in the Fate route before this, so saying "why isn't it explaining his character" makes me laugh, it was never explained here guys lmao. Second, Shirou's ideals are NOT SUPER DEEP AND COMPLEX, his ideals are "i want to be a hero like my dad" and "my life is less important than others", both of which are explained quite well. But Fai went into this expecting to hate it, he fucking called it ruined before a single pv was out entirely because of the director (who not only did the best episode of the show, but only made the worst kara no kyoukai because fucking NASU is the one who wrote the goddamn chapter it was based on) Ii also remember him complaining that they gave Shirou a jacket, his arguments are a joke, he has a few valid points but they're so twisted by his misguided hatred of the director he's wrapped them into something totally different. if you read this Fai please note that any points you make I actually agree with still piss me off, because you argue like a child throwing a tantrum. ^This. Moreover guys, ufotable is giving his best. This adaptation - compared to other VN's - is sensational, so let's stop complaining and accept that we have at least a decent UBW? About Shirou, I still think he's a shit. The only Shirou I like is in HF, so I can't say much about him. EMIYA was godly, no shit. |
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CookingPriest said: iNoto-san said: Both characters, we get to see why archer really want to kill his old self. Which only matters to archer. Archer's past is Shirou. Shirou's future is UNDEFINED. Archer is Shirou but Shirou is NOT Archer, so characterization to Archer does absolutely NOTHING to Shirou. Please do tell me what is Shirou's ideology that he stands for in this fight? What is he defending? What point of view does he have now and how is it different from the first episode? Why is he angry at Archer? Why can't he give up his ideal? To me both are still the same person and they both have a good conversation, which could be extended in the next episode when they start fighting like they use to do in a lot of animes. |
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| They need to make a spinoff with Lancer as the main character. Shirou was a mistake. |
Royalirishman said: Best thing about this episode is Kirei coming back. Way to many flashbacks that don't show anything or with Saber where it shouldn't be there.Why doesn't it show Shirou's ideals? 2/5 Because for some reason they don't want to show his ideals... |
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| This has definitely been a step up in quality from the disappointment that has been the rest of this season so far. I liked the anime original content in Archer's backstory. Now if they can just deliver on the next fight, at least they will have done justice on the most important scenes from Unlimited Blade Works. Shirou still having ginger hair in the flash... forward(?) was a bit weird though, but that's a pretty minor complaint. |
kingcity20 said: Oh for the love of -_- nvm gotta love MAL |
WAD1992 said: mmmmm, so who said this is ALL ABOUT shirou in the first place??!??! archa is a character too man !!! and his characterization matters JUST as much.. But Shirou, the MC, has lesser overall characterization compared to Archer. That's bad. |
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damastah said: WAD1992 said: mmmmm, so who said this is ALL ABOUT shirou in the first place??!??! archa is a character too man !!! and his characterization matters JUST as much.. But Shirou, the MC, has lesser overall characterization compared to Archer. That's bad. oi Damastah..Wad is trolling....>.> |
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damastah said: WAD1992 said: mmmmm, so who said this is ALL ABOUT shirou in the first place??!??! archa is a character too man !!! and his characterization matters JUST as much.. But Shirou, the MC, has lesser overall characterization compared to Archer. That's bad. so?? nasu-verse is NOT about one character. shirou might be an MVP but he isnt the only one ..... :< archa is MORE interesting in UBW and shirou , well he got enough fukin development , the guy isnt goin anywhere new .... we GOT HIM already , its archa that is the enigma. |
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WrongPriest said: Rahkshilord said: you're right, I'm also really terrible at getting the point of my arguments across in text, if this was real life i could easily explain what I mean. all I'm saying is some people here are EXTREMELY exaggerating the flaws based on preconceptions about the show. I'm fully willing to retract any statements i made if I'm totally proven wrong, memory is a weird thing that can get stuff wrong very easily. That's a given. I deleted my comment because I didn't want to pick sides in this but I see you noticed it. It's nowhere near as bad as this amount of backlash deserves but it's certainly not perfect either. also knk6 was shit :3 Cracks are beginning to appear on that mask of yours, Priest of the Lilies. |
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Zeally said: They need to make a spinoff with Lancer as the main character. Shirou was a mistake. yes. |
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| How they switch between scenes lol xD And Archer killing ISIS confirmed? Also, F/Z flashbacks, True F/Z sequel confirmed! |
CookingPriest said: Archer Shirou, Fate Shirou, UBW Shirou, HF Shirou are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PEOPLE with DIFFERENT beliefs and paths. Shirou is the same person in every single route. What changes is the circumstances and how he's basically forced to adapt to the situation. That may lead to different beliefs by the end of each route, but you can't compare his decisions out of context - everything he does is directly related to what goes through in each route. Yes, they could have included more monologues before, yada yada yada. But this episode was perfectly fine. Talking about monologues yet again is kinda silly. The first cour is already out, so they can't go back in time and fix that. They've clearly improved in this regard in the second cour as well, since we have some monologues now. Like Rin talking to herself right before Lancer is ordered to kill himself and other stuff that was included in the previous episodes. Ditching Archer's motivations and backstory at this point or anything else we saw in this episode would have been atrocious. Pretty much everything was important. Everything is connected to Shirou. Even if you claim that Archer is Shirou, but Shirou isn't necessarily Archer, that's like Shirou looking in the mirror right there. He's looking at a different person from who he is at this point, yet he's still facing a possible consequence of his ideal. That's still very personal. |
| the best moment |
| BAN ME |
chat77 said: damastah said: But Shirou, the MC, has lesser overall characterization compared to Archer. That's bad. oi Damastah..Wad is trolling....>.> This is serious business though, note the lack of stickmen. WAD1992 said: so?? nasu-verse is NOT about one character. shirou might be an MVP but he isnt the only one ..... :< archa is MORE interesting in UBW and shirou , well he got enough fukin development , the guy isnt goin anywhere new .... we GOT HIM already , its archa that is the enigma. Remember all those statements the previous year about Nasu wanting this adaptation of UBW to make Shirou a more central character? Well central characters should have lots and I mean LOTS of characterization. More so if it's the damn MC. Shirou is an MC, Archer isn't. Now I could let slide Rin upping Shirou in this adaptation too in terms of characterization because she is also under MC status in this route(but again Shirou should have more even compared to her), but Shirou should not be overshadowed like this by Archer. The point of Archer is that he is a FAILED version of a future Shirou. Shirou coming to terms with his ideals not being as perfect as he thinks they are(ala his Fate route incarnation being all go on his ideals) is the damn point of this route. And we NEEDED the characterization to portray that better. Did Ufotable deliver in that regard? It came short. |
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chat77 said: damastah said: But Shirou, the MC, has lesser overall characterization compared to Archer. That's bad. oi Damastah..Wad is trolling....>.> lolol |
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| Wow, another Lancer commits sudoku. |
WAD1992 said: chat77 said: oi Damastah..Wad is trolling....>.> lolol Wad |
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damastah said: -kV- said: Who the fuck cares about his hair color and skin? Somebody who have never read the VN would be wondering why this dude in his 30s/40s has hair color randomly changed from reddish to pure white without being an old man. Because if they did it like they did just now, then it would imply that Shirou got his tan and white hair via CG status, but he did NOT. And it makes sense, if you freaking consider why he made the deal in the first place, that he should've been in a "semi-rekt" state aka the tan and white hair due to all that magic stuff. That is more intuitive to VN readers. And even if it does imply that, it doesn't really affect the story in any way. If they left the exact same flashback but changed his color to white and kept the hair style, anime-only people will wonder why it randomly changed even though older Shirou doesn't look any older than 40 in that scene. |
chat77 said: WAD1992 said: lolol Wad Archer is shirou though. |
 Anime is good, fucking deal with it. |
astroprogs said: [im g]http://i.imgur.com/DABompH.png[/img] [img]http://i.imgur.com/pnd0dmA.jpg[/i mg] Nice. Nasu. Never failing to deliver Seiba since 2004. |
The sun is a deadly laser |
-kV- said: damastah said: Because if they did it like they did just now, then it would imply that Shirou got his tan and white hair via CG status, but he did NOT. And it makes sense, if you freaking consider why he made the deal in the first place, that he should've been in a "semi-rekt" state aka the tan and white hair due to all that magic stuff. That is more intuitive to VN readers. And even if it does imply that, it doesn't really affect the story in any way. If they left the exact same flashback but changed his color to white and kept the hair style, anime-only people will wonder why it randomly changed even though older Shirou doesn't look any older than 40 in that scene. Maybe we will see that in the next episode. |
chat77 said: WAD1992 said: lolol Wad damastah said: Remember all those statements the previous year about Nasu wanting this adaptation of UBW to make Shirou a more central character? Well central characters should have lots and I mean LOTS of characterization. More so if it's the damn MC. Shirou is an MC, Archer isn't. Now I could let slide Rin upping Shirou in this adaptation too in terms of characterization because she is also under MC status in this route(but again Shirou should have more even compared to her), but Shirou should not be overshadowed like this by Archer. The point of Archer is that he is a FAILED version of a future Shirou. Shirou coming to terms with his ideals not being as perfect as he thinks they are(ala his Fate route incarnation being all go on his ideals) is the damn point of this route. And we NEEDED the characterization to portray that better. Did Ufotable deliver in that regard? It came short. |
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damastah said: chat77 said: oi Damastah..Wad is trolling....>.> This is serious business though, note the lack of stickmen. WAD1992 said: so?? nasu-verse is NOT about one character. shirou might be an MVP but he isnt the only one ..... :< archa is MORE interesting in UBW and shirou , well he got enough fukin development , the guy isnt goin anywhere new .... we GOT HIM already , its archa that is the enigma. Remember all those statements the previous year about Nasu wanting this adaptation of UBW to make Shirou a more central character? Well central characters should have lots and I mean LOTS of characterization. More so if it's the damn MC. Shirou is an MC, Archer isn't. Now I could let Rin upping Shirou in this adaptation too in terms of characterization because she is also under MC status in this route(but again Shirou should have more even compared to her), but Shirou should not be overshadowed like this by Archer. The point of Archer is that he is a FAILED version of a future Shirou. Shirou coming to terms with his ideals not being as perfect as he thinks they are(ala his Fate route incarnation being all go on his ideals) is the damn point of this route. And we NEEDED the characterization to portray that better. Did Ufotable deliver in that regard? It came short. note that developing archa helps u understand shirou. also, even with the effort to make him a centralized character, the story doesn't support it any more then it already has, so , okay he needs more screen time ?? doing what exactly ?? rin's dialogue about archa and some of the dialogue between shirou and rin in first cour helped us understand him pretty well i think .... there isnt much layers to the guy im tellin ya .... thats far as he gets. and as for UFO's archa, KUDOS for them , they realized who is the more relevant MVP here and focused on that, naturally , its archa that makes UBW happen hence he gets more characterization (which comes naturally since his take on the whole ideal issue is the more relevant here, shirou is still shirou until the 3 routes diverge and this is where UBW leads) |
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| WTF why does archer have so much characterization but shirou has close to none? having a foil to a character that is almost non existant loses impact muira. |
| all other archers pale in comparison. |
| So, Alaya is Obama? |
black1blade said: Archer is shirou though. u know , you'd think people would have figured this shit out by now <_<; |
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WAD1992 said: damastah said: This is serious business though, note the lack of stickmen. Remember all those statements the previous year about Nasu wanting this adaptation of UBW to make Shirou a more central character? Well central characters should have lots and I mean LOTS of characterization. More so if it's the damn MC. Shirou is an MC, Archer isn't. Now I could let Rin upping Shirou in this adaptation too in terms of characterization because she is also under MC status in this route(but again Shirou should have more even compared to her), but Shirou should not be overshadowed like this by Archer. The point of Archer is that he is a FAILED version of a future Shirou. Shirou coming to terms with his ideals not being as perfect as he thinks they are(ala his Fate route incarnation being all go on his ideals) is the damn point of this route. And we NEEDED the characterization to portray that better. Did Ufotable deliver in that regard? It came short. note that developing archa helps u understand shirou. also, even with the effort to make him a centralized character, the story doesn't support it any more then it already has, so , okay he needs more screen time ?? doing what exactly ?? rin's dialogue about archa and some of the dialogue between shirou and rin in first cour helped us understand him pretty well i think .... there isnt much layers to the guy im tellin ya .... thats far as he gets. and as for UFO's archa, KUDOS for them , they realized who is the more relevant MVP here and focused on that, naturally , its archa that makes UBW happen hence he gets more characterization (which comes naturally since his take on the whole ideal issue is the more relevant here, shirou is still shirou until the 3 routes diverge and this is where UBW leads) No it does not. If helping Archer is helping Shirou, then why up to this point are you STILL pointing out Archer as "who is the more relevant MVP here and focused on that, naturally" and not Shirou? You see it's clear to me you don't even consider Shirou as the MC. "its archa that makes UBW happen hence he gets more characterization (which comes naturally since his take on the whole ideal issue is the more relevant here, shirou is still shirou until the 3 routes diverge and this is where UBW leads)" No, and secondly Shirou is still SHIROU in all 3 routes. It's the way his ideals are extrapolated on that differs in each route, it's why the start is even the same for all 3 in the 1st place. |
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MostRealArcher said: WTF why does archer have so much characterization but shirou has close to none? having a foil to a character that is almost non existant loses impact muira. Becuz it's an AU? It was obviously Archer's personal anime since day 1 ~.~ How people failed to notice, I have no idea. The prologue was even from Archer's perspective. |
The sun is a deadly laser |
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