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Kuchenlight said: kiDnameDSkia said: so I think arguments like "Sanji would definitely win if this and that happened" are kinda dumb here. I've NEVER even implied that I could think of Sanji beating Doflamingo. Of course he can't. All I was saying is, that he could do "fairly good" against him. Now that is rather vague I know, but obviously it would mean keeping up with him and last a while, not getting totally annihilated. kiDnameDSkia said: Are you suggesting Sanji is equally as strong as Luffy/Law? If yes, I won't even bother going further. I knew it was coming to this. So my point is: why the duck not? Let's do it the "logical" way, all math-ish 'n stuff. Throughout the series it is heavily implied that Zoro IS on Luffy's level. Yes, he's probably slightly weaker, but not by a large margin. So what about Sanji? He's always rivaling with Zoro, they're fighting for humors sake and so on. I'm NOT saying because he can keep up with him in non-serious fights he's as strong as him, but then again it is never directly implied that he isn't. So it would be more likely that he is on Zoro's level, fitting the image of them always fighting. He might also be just sliiightly weaker. But that would make him not much weaker than Luffy, wouldn't it? Only...... slightly-slightly. After all they're always presented as the strawhats' 3 big damage dealers/fighters whatever. Not even once someone says or implies Sanji isn't on par with Luffy and Zoro or at least about their level (again, he's probably not QUITE as strong, I'm not denying that) The only official reference goes back to One Piece Blue (or was it Red?), where was stated that Sanji's strenght falls just short of theirs, but first that was waaaaay back then and second he can make up for this because he's a lot smarter than them. And I on the other hand won't accept an answer like "after they've trained, Luffy (and Zoro) have made so much progress that they're outta his league now!!!" or "Luffy is the main character, he's obviously vastly stronger!!". The first one has yet to be proven. The second one is way to simple-minded for Oda. He's not THAT linear shounen-mainstreamish (most of the time) I had to say these things because I got the feeling things were getting out of hand. Anyway, he COULD do fairly good against him for a short time, and then be totally annihilated. Someone just said it, Dofla blocking/dodging Sanji's attacks wouldn't change on land. I explained it too much already. All matish and stuff, it was Zoro who rendered Sanji unconcious at Thriller Bark, not the other way around. Everytime there's a situation where someone needs to step up to the challenge besides Luffy, it's Zoro. It's Zoro fighting mr.1 and Sanji fighting mr. 2, it's Zoro fighting Kaku (second highest ranked by that power they evaluate strength) and Sanji fighting the wolf-guy. It is so damn obviously implied Sanji is the third wheel, and it's also implied he isn't much weaker than Zoro/Luffy (their opponents always have the kind of relationship between themselves lik Zoro and Sanji have between them (mr.1 and mr.2 dont quite like each other; Kaku and wolf-guy either). In the end of Thriller Bark Zoro said something like "idiot, someone needs to protect the crew blah blah" to Sanji. Sanji is that, he's the third monster in the SHs and their protector, while Zoro and Luffy are their main offensive force. In Punk Hazard, it was Sanji running around the place and protecting, while Zoro was a wild beast biting Monet. I agree with you about the timeskip arguments, it may seem as if Zoro and Luffy are much more cool now and stronger than Sanji, but that's just because of different fighting styles (more attractive or whatever), in the end the balance between those three isn't disturbed and Sanji is behind them as much as he was 2 years before that. And while we're at it, cmon...Luffy doesn't need plot armor to fight against Sanji. Again, I'm repeating myself with this statement because I feel I have to: NOBODY IS SAYING SANJI IS WEAK But you can't compare him and Luffy, they both fight "bare-handed" in a way, but it's so obvious Luffy has the advantage there...no, I said I won't go there. You can do it by yourself, all matish and logically and stuff. I only went through this because you started attacking everyone who said "Sanji doesn't have a chance", but it's the truth man. You said it yourself, Sanji would put up a fight but lose anyway, how's that giving Sanji a chance? You yourself suggested Dofla would win without discussion. Giving Sanji a chance would be something like: "Sanji would beat Dofla if this and that" and you already said you never implied Sanji could win in any way, and agreed that the argument was lame (the this and that situation) EDIT: scratch that "attacking" word from the last segment, it's a bit too harsh, you didn't attack anyone just stated your opinion. I just formulated it that because I didn't know which other word to use that would fit |
kiDnameDSkiaOct 9, 2013 4:30 PM
| This world is mine. I think this world may even just be a long, long dream I'm watching. You guys may just be illusions, and it can't be proven whether or not you really exist either. In other words, this world was created with me at the center. So what will happen if I die? I don't know. My imagination isn't very creative; I just can't imagine myself dying. In other words, there is no way this world can completely disappear. But if I die, then everyone will disappear. I am the only one in this world who won't disappear. The rest are just people I see as if in a dream. -Claire Stanfield, Baccano! |
| Also, this statement Kuchenlight said: kiDnameDSkia said: so I think arguments like "Sanji would definitely win if this and that happened" are kinda dumb here. I've NEVER even implied that I could think of Sanji beating Doflamingo. Of course he can't. All I was saying is, that he could do "fairly good" against him. Now that is rather vague I know, but obviously it would mean keeping up with him and last a while, not getting totally annihilated. is a totally different story from this Kuchenlight said: Sure, he would've lost (and pressumably died), but that's only because he didn't know what Doflamingo's powers were ("threads, I see"). And yes, in a real battle being prepared for something like this makes the difference. But given the circumstances Sanji MIGHT have a chance, once he knows the powers of someone on Doflamingo's level or stand up to him right from the beginning and this was just some kind of "tough luck" (situation, that kind of powers etc.) . :) |
| This world is mine. I think this world may even just be a long, long dream I'm watching. You guys may just be illusions, and it can't be proven whether or not you really exist either. In other words, this world was created with me at the center. So what will happen if I die? I don't know. My imagination isn't very creative; I just can't imagine myself dying. In other words, there is no way this world can completely disappear. But if I die, then everyone will disappear. I am the only one in this world who won't disappear. The rest are just people I see as if in a dream. -Claire Stanfield, Baccano! |
| Why sanji lost to Dofla? Simple, Dofla has a DF ability & Conquers Haki. In the One Piece world DF users are stronger than non users, this is the basic rule unless the non DF user has insanely strong Haki (Reyleigh, Shanks) obviously Sanji is not on that level yet. Dofla blocked Sanji's kicks with his own, even complimenting Sanji, a way of Oda showing that he's really OP & Sanji not so weak. Sanji was the perfect example to show off Mingo's powers as he is the 3rd strongest in the SH crew with Haki/Sky Walk, and the power difference was showcased. Even Zoro would have lost. So maybe the crew members will have to team up to take Mingo down, or Luffy gets Mera-Mera for 1v1. I believe Oda sent Sanji instead of Zoro becuz he's saving Zoro from defeat. Zoro's on a better win streak than Sanji. So I'm thinking Oda's got something big planned for Zoro, You know Zoro's fights r always epic..! Now that him & Kinemon r standing outside the Colisiuem! awwww yeeeeh ! This Arc is easily my fav, I have a feeling Luffy & friends are gathering allies unintentionally for the showdown between SH crew & Dofla crew and maybe allies for the future too! |
MegaCharizardXOct 9, 2013 8:55 PM
| ~ b-boys defy the laws of gravity ~ |
kiDnameDSkia said: Well, I wasn't really saying that he'd have a way better chance on ground, just saying I don't think it takes Doflamingo any effort to fly, while it does for Sanji. As far as what the knowledge could do, if anything he's aware that something is holding him so I'm sure there's plenty of things he can probably do to break the strings... the fact that he didn't know he was being held by strings means that he had no way of knowing how to struggle or get out of it. If anything it's not like Doflamingo's strings are everywhere, he has to actually attach them to Sanji (assuming it's not like Robin's ability, which it doesn't seem to be).kiDnameDSkia said: First, I'd just like to say that you guys pretty much said the same thing. Sanji might not be equal to Zoro / Luffy, however he definitely isn't much weaker. Also, talking about Zoro knocking Sanji unconscious... it's worth noting that Zoro wasn't nearly in as bad of shape there as Sanji was, he had a clean fight against Ryuma, whilst Sanji got slashed tons of times from Absolom before their fight against Oars. Also Sanji was just recovering from unconsciousness and was barely even able to stand up. Using CP9 is a reference however is a decent way of measuring things. CP9 used Doriki to measure their strength... and Kaku / Jabra had the most miniscule gap possible (Lucci: 4000, Kaku: 2200, Jabra: 2180, Blueno: 820, etc.)... and Sanji quickly beat Jabra without any trouble, whilst Zoro took quite a while to beat Kaku, and of course Luffy nearly died fighting Lucci. Of course, like you said it's pointless to argue who's stronger, and I'm sure we could all do it all day... the point is, whether Sanji is less than or equal to Luffy / Zoro, it's by a fairly small margin.The only point I'm trying to get across is that if Luffy, and especially Zoro has any kind of chance against Doflamingo, so too does Sanji. Standing a chance and being able to win are as far apart as fire and water... to say that he has a chance to win is not to say that he's stronger than Doflamingo, just that in no way is Doflamingo some sort of god compared to Sanji. Just think of Enel... Sanji, Usopp, Zoro and Robin all got owned just as hard by him... and the only reason Luffy won and they couldn't was because he's made of rubber. Of course everyone knows Luffy is the strongest, otherwise they wouldn't follow him, especially not Zoro as he's said so himself many times. We all know that if Luffy ever slows Zoro down, he's committing seppuku. My intent isn't to tell you or others that they're wrong, or start a debate on who's the strongest character. I personally (and I think Kuchenlight as well) just think that everyone just isn't giving Sanji enough credit. I couldn't care less who is stronger, as I love all the Straw Hats equally... kinda like Bartolomeo I guess you could say (though he still disturbs me). kiDnameDSkia said: And again, I wasn't saying that in other circumstances Zoro couldn't have done better against Doflamingo (I mean swords vs. strings, who wins?). The fact is that Zoro couldn't get to the ship. But if you're saying Zoro could harm Doflamingo with any of his ranged attacks, you might as well say that Usopp or Robin could defeat him, because I'm certain their ranged attacks are 100 times stronger than Zoro's.And lastly, Zoro can't fly but if he could get to the ship he could repel Dofla's ranged attacks from the ship and cut his strings, also he can use ranged slashes. Just sayin |
HalibelTheEspadaOct 9, 2013 9:29 PM
Fair enough to me. =) You even changed the "attacking" part before I could say something about it, that was the only part still bothering me. And ye, "Sanji MIGHT have a chance etc." is an obvious contradiction to my later posts, sorry about that. Thanks for the discussion, I enjoyed it. @Halibel Yes, not enough credit given to Sanji was my point indeed, thanks. ^^ |
KuchenlightOct 9, 2013 9:35 PM
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| Post-timeskip Luffy casually dodges Pacifista beams and 1 shots them by himself. Luffy messes up the ship Noah while sky-diving. Luffy rivals Garp's punch in the coliseum. Luffy has shown great control over all forms of Haki, and Gears. Zoro slashes a galleon clean in two underwater. Zoro defeats a fishman on steroids underwater. Zoro makes a snow logia user cower in fear by showing mercy. Zoro is clearly being saved for another time by Oda. Smoker outruns Luffy to Caeser Clown's door. Smoker fights on par and gets some hits on a semi-serious Vergo Smoker does the same on Law before the Heart-steal Law defeats Smoker 1 on 1. (Heart-steal) Law slashes a serious Vergo along with a few mountains clean in two on Punk Hazard. Law holds his own a few times against Fujitora's meteors Law escapes from an Admiral and Shichibukai from point-blank range Doflamingo owns Smoker (well, a tired Smoker. But either way.) Doflamingo doesn't get 1-shot by an angry Aokiji Doflamingo handles a chunk of Fujitora's meteor Doflamingo flies like spiderman using clouds Doflimngo is only beginning to get serious. ..... Sanji gets life-threatening nosebleeds from women. Sanji cracks the bones in his leg against a half-serious Vergo. Sanji seems to be Oda's measuring stick in fights, and usually comes out underneath. Sanji makes sandwiches in the kitchen. Oh, he learned Geppou. Hopefully Rankyaku too. *runs away* |
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-Shuda- said: Though cooking doesn't necessarily make someone less bad-ass, the point that Sanji is both a cook and a fighter and Zorro is literally just a swordsman is a significant one. Zorro lives breathes and dies for sword-fighting. Sanji's goal is women and the all-blue, which have less to do with being an awesome fighter. I'm not a Sanji hater. I love Sanji's character especially after him sticking up for Tashigi. However, I hope after this he realizes he needs to power up. If he wants to protect Nami and Robin, that is. |
| Hey, I cook sometimes too lol. I didn't mean anything by that, it was just for a little chuckle. I always was fond of Sanji too, he's not even close to my favourite, but I do like him. I'm just stating what's been showcased after the time-skip, since a debate was going on about Sanji's strength/battle prowess, especially in comparison to certain others. |
Kayaba-Oct 9, 2013 10:51 PM
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*cough*Probably the strongest busoshoku haki user yet. It does seem to be his specialty. Sanji doesn't falter against Vergo. Sanji stops Doflamingo in his tracks. Sanji forces Doflamingo to block and told he's strong. Vergo takes Law and Smoker to beat him. Vergo is not beaten through strength. I don't like Sanji any more than any member of the crew, but I also don't think he's weak compared to Luffy or Zoro. It's not like Sanji was defeated... yet. He did however succeed in his goal in that fight, and if there's a next time he knows what he's up against. |
HalibelTheEspadaOct 9, 2013 10:52 PM
HalibelTheEspada said: *cough*Probably the strongest busoshoku haki user yet. It does seem to be his specialty. Sanji doesn't falter against Vergo. Sanji stops Doflamingo in his tracks. Sanji forces Doflamingo to block and told he's strong. I don't like Sanji any more than any member of the crew, but I also don't think he's weak compared to Luffy or Zoro. It's not like Sanji was defeated... yet. He did however succeed in his goal in that fight, and if there's a next time he knows what he's up against. You mean the Vergo who was squeezing Law's heart while taking cheap-shots on him? And then panicking like mad when Law almost got his heart back? We all saw what happened as soon as he got it back (as I mentioned). What you just mentioned about Sanj only quantifies for time-stalling. He was saved both times, he couldn't hold his own. He cracked his leg against Vergo, and basically would've died against Doflamingo. Being told you're strong by a smiling and relaxed man just doesn't feel right. How many faces of agony has Doflamingo made, courtesy of Law? Read my first post with all the listings again. Second time is a charm. |
Kayaba-Oct 9, 2013 11:07 PM
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| Zoro would have got lost on his way back to the Sunny. |
| ~ b-boys defy the laws of gravity ~ |
-Shuda- said: My point was that Vergo's attacks are strong as fuck whether they are against Sanji or Law. And just so you know, Law didn't beat Vergo through being strong in any way, shape, or form. As far as we know there's not really much you can do to stop Law from using his ability... and his ability is pretty damned rigged. Please explain to me, if you know a counter for having your head remotely severed and attached to a railing. Also, I'd like to see this part where Vergo "panicked".You mean the Vergo who was squeezing Law's heart while taking cheap-shots on him? And then panicking like mad when Law almost got his heart back? We all saw what happened as soon as he got it back (as I mentioned). What you just mentioned about Sanj only quantifies for time-stalling. He was saved both times, he couldn't hold his own. He cracked his leg against Vergo, and basically would've died against Doflamingo. Being told you're strong by a smiling and relaxed man just doesn't feel right. How many faces of agony has Doflamingo made, courtesy of Law? Read my first post with all the listings again. Second time is a charm. I was saying that, even if his heart was being clutched, one strike to the head almost killed, Law, and completely knocked him unconscious. A small fracture in the leg is nothing for Sanji... Usopp won a fight back in Arabasta with a completely crushed skull, and you're gonna tell me a few cracks in Sanji's leg is defeat? You might as well say to someone, "Daaaaaaamn, you got hit by a train and only broke a finger? Pathetic! That train wrecked you!" . Edit: Regarding the time-stalling remark, I already mentioned that that was the only goal Sanji had in mind there. Sanji isn't the type who would rush into combat without thinking, except when he's trying to protect someone. If he was just there to win a fight, who knows maybe he could of won by letting his friends die... I guess you don't really get what the baddies mean when they say friends / loved ones are one's weakness. Also, I'd just like to say... I think it's funny that Luffy got 3 tries before he could beat Crocodile, let along stand a chance against him... yet Sanji almost loses on his first against Doflamingo, and everyone already sets him aside. All the Straw Hats have been in plenty of tighter situations and still come out victorious. |
HalibelTheEspadaOct 10, 2013 11:44 AM
HalibelTheEspada said: -Shuda- said: My point was that Vergo's attacks are strong as fuck whether they are against Sanji or Law. And just so you know, Law didn't beat Vergo through being strong in any way, shape, or form. As far as we know there's not really much you can do to stop Law from using his ability... and his ability is pretty damned rigged. Please explain to me, if you know a counter for having your head remotely severed and attached to a railing. Also, I'd like to see this part where Vergo "panicked".You mean the Vergo who was squeezing Law's heart while taking cheap-shots on him? And then panicking like mad when Law almost got his heart back? We all saw what happened as soon as he got it back (as I mentioned). What you just mentioned about Sanj only quantifies for time-stalling. He was saved both times, he couldn't hold his own. He cracked his leg against Vergo, and basically would've died against Doflamingo. Being told you're strong by a smiling and relaxed man just doesn't feel right. How many faces of agony has Doflamingo made, courtesy of Law? Read my first post with all the listings again. Second time is a charm. I was saying that, even if his heart was being clutched, one strike to the head almost killed, Law, and completely knocked him unconscious. A small fracture in the leg is nothing for Sanji... Usopp won a fight back in Arabasta with a completely crushed skull, and you're gonna tell me a few cracks in Sanji's leg is defeat? You might as well say "Daaaaaaamn, you got hit by a train and only broke a finger? Pathetic! That train wrecked you!" to someone. > You clearly don't know Sanji's legs are his strongest weapon, the strongest part of his body. Vergo wasn't even serious when he cracked Sanji's bone. > Prevent Sanji from using his legs is like preventing Zoro from using his arms. Basically weakens them. > If someone is capable of cracking the bone of Sanji's leg, that makes him superior to Sanji. Sanji fights with his legs, without them Sanji will not be able to fight back. > Please realize how strong and how important Sanji's legs are to him, and tell me a crack is no big deal, again. I dare you. |
| Honobono Log - best slice of life short -------------------------------------------- most kawaii loli overlord ---------------------------- Donquixote Doflamingo AMV - Control |
Natsu12345 said: Exactly. Being his primary weapon, they're going to take some amount of damage. I dunno what you guys think happens in a fight... but when you get in a fight you're gonna take some hits, and a good amount of damage. When you fight with your fists, you're gonna bruise and break your knuckles... you're going to probably get a cracked jaw... and there's a good chance you're gonna break a rib or two. > You clearly don't know Sanji's legs are his strongest weapon, the strongest part of his body. Vergo wasn't even serious when he cracked Sanji's bone. > Prevent Sanji from using his legs is like preventing Zoro from using his arms. Basically weakens them. > If someone is capable of cracking the bone of Sanji's leg, that makes him superior to Sanji. Sanji fights with his legs, without them Sanji will not be able to fight back. > Please realize how strong and how important Sanji's legs are to him, and tell me a crack is no big deal, again. I dare you. And... maybe I'm the only one reading this series, or perhaps mis-reading but I haven't seen the Straw Hats go up against anyone who wasn't small fry (and even then it's rare) and come out unscathed. If it's any consolation, Usopp's eyes would probably be considered his main weapon too, and the crushed skull situation didn't stop him from winning. Zoro had his sword destroyed, but still beat Ryuma with 2 swords. Luffy beat Crocodile and had the life drained from him twice. Sanji and Usopp got destroyed by Enel, but still went on to save Nami. |
HalibelTheEspadaOct 10, 2013 11:23 AM
| @HalibelTheEspada You're missing the point. No logic needs to even be mentioned here. The fact is that no matter what you have in your arsenal, be it a devil fruit, or raw power, what matters is how you fare in a life/death situation, a.k.a battle prowess. You can cry all day that Law has a cheap fruit and what-not but it's not changing the fact that in this manga, One Piece, Law has that fruit, not Sanji, not Vergo, and Law is more effective in life/death situations, a.k.a battles. I am just mentioning the things that characters have pulled off after the time-skip (Crocodile is fucking pre-timeskip, Ryuma is fucking pre-timeskip, Ussop's skull is fucking pre-timeskip). Sanji is the least impressive by far, and nothing you say can change that fact. He even said himself that if the battle went on, he would lose to vergo. Smoker didn't crack any bones against him, and he's purely melee. On the listings I made, Luffy, Zoro, Smoker, and especially Law are in a league of their own. Sanji cannot compete with them in this, as of now. Everything I'm saying is in accordance to what is in the manga, why are you spouting bullshit about how physical damage and face-offs work in real life. Thats not what my listings were saying. Oda is the writer, he's portraying it clearly to us by making him the measuring-stick for antagonists after the time-skip, and requiring to be saved, so that another character can have the glory, as of now. Sanji needs to use more tactics in battle and be able to win/survive against every crew's number 3 that he has to fight, and Vice-Admiral level enemies in the Government. No one is expecting him to do more than that, and I'm not discrediting those accomplishments either (Number 3's can be intense - Ace/Jozu). Maybe someday in a dream beyond a dream, he could hold off an Admiral like Ace/Jozu have (Aokiji). |
Kayaba-Oct 10, 2013 5:50 PM
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-Shuda- said: I'm not crying about Law's fruit. I couldn't give two shits about Law being a cheap bastard... it's a series about pirates, if they weren't cheap bastards I would be disappointed. Only reason I said that was because you decided to use him as a reference for power, so I assumed it was alright for me to gauge their powers powers in an intelligent manner. As for Sanji saying "if the battle went on, he would lose to vergo", source or gtfo... most I see is him saying "shit if I keep going on like this..." because his leg hurt, in a totally separate situation. Hairline fractures, which is what it is, don't actually do anything but cause pain.You're missing the point. No logic needs to even be mentioned here. The fact is that no matter what you have in your arsenal, be it a devil fruit, or raw power, what matters is how you fare in a life/death situation, a.k.a battle prowess. You can cry all day that Law has a cheap fruit and what-not but it's not changing the fact that in this manga, One Piece, Law has that fruit, not Sanji, not Vergo, and Law is more effective in life/death situations, a.k.a battles. I am just mentioning the things that characters have pulled off after the time-skip (Crocodile is fucking pre-timeskip, Ryuma is fucking pre-timeskip, Ussop's skull is fucking pre-timeskip). Sanji is the least impressive by far, and nothing you say can change that fact. He even said himself that if the battle went on, he would lose to vergo. Smoker didn't crack any bones against him, and he's purely melee. But I guess that's the last time I'll use logic here, since you said it's pointless. -Shuda- said: Lol at you comparing Smoker to those three in current events. If you honestly think Sanji's just a "measuring stick" then you must have a really low opinion of either Oda or this manga if you think it's simply an unending pattern, full of random and generic fights (which you're free to have)... now I know how the series got to be #1.On the listings I made, Luffy, Zoro, Smoker, and especially Law are in a league of their own. Sanji cannot compete with them in this, as of now. Everything I'm saying is in accordance to what is in the manga, why are you spouting bullshit about how physical damage and face-offs work in real life. Thats not what my listings were saying. Oda is the writer, he's portraying it clearly to us by making him the measuring-stick for antagonists after the time-skip, and requiring to be saved, so that another character can have the glory, as of now. Perhaps you're right, let's just screw logic to Fabulous Max. I predict Sanji will betray the crew, burn the ship, kill Nami and Robin, eventually becoming Fleet Admiral in the Marines, and buy a harem of mermaid slaves. -Shuda- said: Never for a moment did I consider Sanji or even Luffy to be able to take on an Admiral... I already said before, it Doflamingo is even half as powerful as an Admiral, then the Marines are already screwed. Again, I'm not saying that Sanji is best pirate, simply stating my opinion that Sanji is not a toad compared to Luffy / Zoro... sorry I don't only read the series for the sake of those two, since you seem to think anyone else is <= a measuring stick. Sanji needs to use more tactics in battle and be able to win/survive against every crew's number 3 that he has to fight, and Vice-Admiral level enemies in the Government. No one is expecting him to do more than that, and I'm not discrediting those accomplishments either (Number 3's can be intense - Ace/Jozu). Maybe someday in a dream beyond a dream, he could hold off an Admiral like Ace/Jozu have (Aokiji). I suppose it's time for me to bow out as well, because it seems I've made a mistake in going against public opinion. |
HalibelTheEspadaOct 10, 2013 8:27 PM
Luckyin said: strength doesn't determine who wins in a fight ~ Yes, I didn't once claim it did. Battle Prowess includes a lot more than strength. Though sometimes a clear strength advantage is the difference maker/deciding factor. @HalibelTheEspada 1) "Source or GTFO?" You think this is a battledome or something? Sanji clearly said it'd be bad for him if he kept fighting Vergo. "Shit, if this goes on" means he's at an increasing disadvantage the longer the fight goes. About the comment on logic, I meant your logic/real-world references about how injuries in a fight should be is pointless in One Piece battles. People have lost enough blood, but lived. People have burst their internal organs by moving high-speed under water, but lived. So Sanji's bone cracking was definitely a showcase of the difference between Vergo and Sanji (especially since they both clashed with attacking intentions) on Oda's standpoint, or else why didn't Smoker get visible fractures just from fighting Vergo? Sanji's fighting style is his legs/physical strength, Law's his is "room", so who had better result on Vergo at full power? Sanji can't take out two mountains, a laboratory, and a jacked up Haki Vergo with one strike. Or deflect meteors for that matter. So Law > Sanji, point 1. 2) Smoker also held his own against Law, and against Vergo better than Sanji did. He and Luffy technically raced to Caeser's door and Smoker was chilling while Luffy was out of breath. Also, why are you pointing out Smoker in my post? Wasn't this about Luffy/Zoro and Sanji? Also, about the measuring, I said Sanji is a measuring stick as of now. "As of now". I didn't once mention it would be a never-ending pattern. Also, this series is not #1 in favourites (#2!), or in ratings (#6). Do you even see it on my favourites? 3) Holding off an Admiral someday would be necessary (I'm sure you agree) if they want to conquer the Grand Line. Jozu was the number 4 of Whitebeard's crew and he stalled Aokiji for a bit before he got distracted. I said Sanji so far after the timeskip has been used to demonstrate a new antagonist a few times (not never-ending), and not every character other than Luffy/Zoro is a measuring stick... lol. I'm saying that compared to what we've seen of the mentioned characters so far after 2 years, Sanji is the least impressive. There are no power levels in this series, so we can only go by what they have done. So we can't say Sanji is a toad either, nor can we say he is "near" the strenght of the others. He's just not been shown to be on their level so far. 4) "Sorry, I don't read the series only for those two?". Are you implying that battle-prowess is the main reason you read this series? That's a low priority for me when it comes to One Piece. So we can't enjoy a character outside of fighting? Now, I know you didn't say that and I won't pursue this, but that's the vibe I got from your sentence. Also, you're nitpicking/attacking the small things in my posts more than actually challenging the big picture of what I've said. You are trying though. Back on topic: So far, after the time-skip... It's still here just in case. |
Kayaba-Oct 10, 2013 10:28 PM
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-Shuda- said: I'm done arguing on this matter, because there's not enough facts to attempt to convince you, or vice versa. Originally just stated my own opinions, had no intention of starting a cock fight with you. However I will just clarify, since you seem to have been confused / misinterpreting some of what I said... 1. Since you didn't even attempt for a source, the part I mentioned (like I said) was in a different situation, and not in his fight. My apologies for assuming their anatomy is the same... and I didn't realize mentioning Usopp's skull completely being crushed wasn't part of One Piece logic, now I understand that after the time-skip these are entirely new characters, and anything they did before now never happened. I'm a bit confused how you argue about all the things people should die from and don't, then say that getting a fracture is defeat, but hey maybe I'm just ignorant. Once again, I didn't say Law wasn't stronger than Sanji, in fact I mentioned that Sanji is weaker than Luffy / Zoro? 2. Vergo ran away from Sanji, not from Smoker + Law, so your point's invalid. And Law was playing with Smoker in their fight. If responding to the things you say implies desperation, then I guess I'm groveling here. As I've already said countless times, no this has nothing to do with Luffy or Zoro... I don't care how strong they are. I just don't think he's weak compared to them, if you do, fine. 700+ chapters in... I'm pretty sure any pattern that's gone on this long I get the feeling is going to continue. Apologies once again for not being clear... I wasn't referring to you there, I was referring to the fact that One Piece is the #1 seller in manga worldwide. 3. My bad, I was under the impression that you thought Sanji was stronger than the majority of the crew, which is why I said less than or equal to (<= not an arrow). Well there you go, what I've been saying all along. There is no actual statement on their full potential... so it's at best our opinions. 4. No, I don't know how you got this impression at all. I just don't think that Luffy and Zoro are the only important characters, and everyone else is just an added bonus. The fights are also on the bottom of my priorities. I am bowing out of this argument, because it seems like there won't be any progress, and I have no desire to convince you... I said my piece. My "nitpicking" is simply responding to your comments, if you want me to not reply to certain things you said, then why say them? Sorry again, if you were hoping I'd just reply with "Nuh uh! Sanji's da best! He's mah waifu!"... maybe next time. |
HalibelTheEspadaOct 10, 2013 10:59 PM
| Man, I actually got a nice laugh out of your last post. "He's my waifu" was overkill. HalibelTheEspada said: and I didn't realize mentioning Usopp's skull completely being crushed wasn't part of One Piece logic, now I understand that after the time-skip these are entirely new characters, and anything they did before now never happened. I'm a bit confused how you argue about all the things people should die from and don't, then say that getting a fracture is defeat, but hey maybe I'm just ignorant. You think Usopp could pull that off on Bon Clay, Mr. 1, or Crocodile? That is also One Piece logic. Sanji got injured when they knowingly clashed attacks, not taking a hit. So in essence it was a clean power-gap, and that is saying something since kicks are Sanji's main weapon. He was also facing the respectable "big boss" alone. No, they're not new characters, but the powers are different, the enemies are different, and it's wasn't the climax of the arc where match-ups were clear as day like Alabasta. In Usopp's case, Oda portrayed his injury as an emotional scene, whereas in Sanji's it was a power-gap. More logic. So you say you're done arguing, but you slap on the sarcasm? Well, in summary, it seems we both agree that Sanji can neither be clearly "way weaker", or "near" Luffy/Zoro/Law, as there is no such numbers, but he is below. So case closed. Yes, you're responding to what I'm writing which seems convenient, but it's irrelevant, so I urged you to reply to my original post since that's where my bold statement was, is, and will be until Sanji does something comparable after the time-skip. Just a little farewell gift, - Saying Vergo ran from Sanji is just sickening. There was gas. - Law seems to have some intense facial expressions "while playing" then. Could he be a masochist? (You inspired this one) - There is nothing wrong with nit-picking but I was just directing your efforts to the right place. - Sarcasm didn't do anything for you. See ya. I'm sure 99.9% of the readers can judge for themselves with the facts. Sanji isn't worth this much of my time, and this chapter discussion will be buried next week. What a waste of time. You could've potentially been the coolest guy ever on a different topic, in a different place lol, we;d never know. So I'll part with a nod. |
Kayaba-Oct 10, 2013 11:31 PM
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-Shuda- said: I agree, it was pointless. And I assure you it was 100% serious... I'm not sure what this "original post" of yours is that I didn't respond to, as I wasn't even talking to you to begin with. Lol... I don't have anything to prove to you, I'm not the one acting all egotistical... I stated my opinion on a manga discussion, if this bothers you, you probably shouldn't be here. Man, I actually got a nice laugh out of your last post. "He's my waifu" was overkill. HalibelTheEspada said: and I didn't realize mentioning Usopp's skull completely being crushed wasn't part of One Piece logic, now I understand that after the time-skip these are entirely new characters, and anything they did before now never happened. I'm a bit confused how you argue about all the things people should die from and don't, then say that getting a fracture is defeat, but hey maybe I'm just ignorant. You think Usopp could pull that off on Bon Clay, Mr. 1, or Crocodile? That is also One Piece logic. Sanji got injured when they knowingly clashed attacks, not taking a hit. So in essence it was a clean power-gap, and that is saying something since kicks are Sanji's main weapon. He was also facing the respectable "big boss" alone. No, they're not new characters, but the powers are different, the enemies are different, and it's wasn't the climax of the arc where match-ups were clear as day like Alabasta. In Usopp's case, Oda portrayed his injury as an emotional scene, whereas in Sanji's it was a power-gap. More logic. So you say you're done arguing, but you slap on the sarcasm? Well, in summary, it seems we both agree that Sanji can neither be clearly "way weaker", or "near" Luffy/Zoro/Law, as there is no such numbers, but he is below. So case closed. Yes, you're responding to what I'm writing which seems convenient, but it's irrelevant, so I urged you to reply to my original post since that's where my bold statement was, is, and will be until Sanji does something comparable after the time-skip. Just a little farewell gift, - Saying Vergo ran from Sanji is just sickening. There was gas. - Law seems to have some intense facial expressions "while playing" then. Could he be a masochist? (You inspired this one) - There is nothing wrong with nit-picking but I was just directing your efforts to the right place. - Sarcasm didn't do anything for you. See ya. I'm sure 99.9% of the readers can judge for themselves with the facts. Sanji isn't worth this much of my time, and this chapter discussion will be buried next week. What a waste of time. You could've potentially been the coolest guy ever on a different topic, in a different place lol, we;d never know. So I'll part with a nod. |
HalibelTheEspada said: I agree, it was pointless. And I assure you it was 100% serious... I'm not sure what this "original post" of yours is that I didn't respond to, as I wasn't even talking to you to begin with. Lol... I don't have anything to prove to you, I'm not the one acting all egotistical... I stated my opinion on a manga discussion, if this bothers you, you probably shouldn't be here. All's well that ends well, screw the minor details. I was more entertained than bothered, and egotistical was the last impression I felt I made. You don't have to prove anything. I just called Sanji out like I saw it, and I do wish for him to grow. I don't comment on weekly One Piece often (guess that means One Piece is getting exciting again), but the opportunity to throw that listing in was too enjoyable to pass up. I see a few others got something out of it too. Opinions are cool, but they shouldn't be presented like facts. Peace. |
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| I will say, I just noticed that I did fuck up here: HalibelTheEspada said: not noticing the conversation shifted to yet another person. Dumb mistake on my part.Only reason I said that was because you decided to use him as a reference for power... And, of course I was too imposing, I already said my first mistake was going against public opinion. |
HalibelTheEspadaOct 11, 2013 2:50 AM
| Only thing this arc is missing is a yonkou, cmon kaidou, come on out :D |
| Does anyone else need a doctor to confirm that someone without a head is dead? |
| I actually read the whole argument of Espada and Shuda, lol me. I feel like it's my fault because that conversation started out of what I was discussing with Kuchenlight (np m8). I think it's pretty obvious for everyone here who reads this manga carefuly about the distance between Sanji and Zoro (I said from the beginning there's no way I'll compare those two with Luffy/Law because they're in a different league, although Zoro is someone I can see standing up to them, and Sanji simply isn't) and we all said the same thing over and over again, from one chapter to another about comparing powers in One Piece, it's just those small details that matter. Now that I said this, I don't mean to reincarnate the argument because all has already been said, But I do have the need to correct a thing HalibelTheEspada mentioned about Law's fruit: In order for Law's fruit to be directly effective against someone (cutting them in half etc), it is top priority that that someone he's fighting against has weaker haki than him, because we saw Smoker not getting cut within the room, as well as Law not even attempting to cut Dofla in his fight (until now, when he can finally fight him 1v1 directly next chapter), while all the others (marines in PH for instance) we're insta KOed by it. That being said, the moment Law got his heart back and Vergo (the 'strongest' armament haki user we saw) lost that advantage and went beast-black-haki-look-at-my-giant-biceps mode, Law cut through it so hard I don't even.. those 2 mountains behind the factory know what I mean. If that isn't a clear show of gap between Law > Vergo > and lastly, Sanji I don't know what is. Also, Vergo left his fight with Sanji behind because Law entered the S.A.D. room and was about to wreck it, so it was only natural Vergo rushed to stop him. I do admit Law's power is one hell strong/op, that's why it has limited range of actions obviously. But for now, I like it most because of all the possibilities it gives you. here's the pic about Vergo and Law http://i34.mangareader.net/one-piece/690/one-piece-3726521.jpg http://i26.mangareader.net/one-piece/690/one-piece-3726523.jpg |
| This world is mine. I think this world may even just be a long, long dream I'm watching. You guys may just be illusions, and it can't be proven whether or not you really exist either. In other words, this world was created with me at the center. So what will happen if I die? I don't know. My imagination isn't very creative; I just can't imagine myself dying. In other words, there is no way this world can completely disappear. But if I die, then everyone will disappear. I am the only one in this world who won't disappear. The rest are just people I see as if in a dream. -Claire Stanfield, Baccano! |
| also, the longer we discuss about Sanji and where lies in the whole story, the more I feel I want him to get the mera mera no mi, lol. I don't want to spoil his character with it and all that, but I do feel he needs to have some different moves, or something new up his sleeve. His style of fighting is getting kinda boring and predictable in my opinion. The only thing I've seen so far after the timeskip was him learning gap closers (air walk, blue walk), and amplifying his kicking strength (no need for spinning to activate diable jumble or w/e is it called, stronger attacks he used before like collier etc) But I don't see him refreshed as a character, atleast in my opinion. Zoro has his asura, the tatsumaki move (tornado, whirlwind or w/e) is now so strong it literally created a tornado that lasts on the battlefield lol, etc etc His attacks just seem more colorful and interesting than Sanji's already used up moves. It's no that they're bad, but Sanji seriously needs something more than that |
| This world is mine. I think this world may even just be a long, long dream I'm watching. You guys may just be illusions, and it can't be proven whether or not you really exist either. In other words, this world was created with me at the center. So what will happen if I die? I don't know. My imagination isn't very creative; I just can't imagine myself dying. In other words, there is no way this world can completely disappear. But if I die, then everyone will disappear. I am the only one in this world who won't disappear. The rest are just people I see as if in a dream. -Claire Stanfield, Baccano! |
kiDnameDSkia said: I don't intend to start anymore arguments either, 'specially not like that one... so I'll just say that yeah I have feeling that there is probably some way to counter haki. But I'd also like to point out that Law did later steal Smoker's heart after that point, and there's also the fact that he moved Doflamingo in this chapter. So if haki can counter it, it still has its limits. I'm sure we'll see how Dofy counters real soon, because I definitely don't think Law could beat Doflamingo like he did Vergo... and having no counter for fruits would just be overpowerful.But I do have the need to correct a thing HalibelTheEspada mentioned about Law's fruit: In order for Law's fruit to be directly effective against someone (cutting them in half etc), it is top priority that that someone he's fighting against has weaker haki than him, because we saw Smoker not getting cut within the room, as well as Law not even attempting to cut Dofla in his fight (until now, when he can finally fight him 1v1 directly next chapter), while all the others (marines in PH for instance) we're insta KOed by it. Also, just want to add that I don't think Law is weak without his fruit, I just think that in those situations saying it was through "level of power" wasn't a great way to measure, because I think Law wasn't even showing his full potential. |
HalibelTheEspadaOct 11, 2013 2:39 PM
| ^ true. I forgot to say it before about this chapter, but I think this situation is Oda creating a setup where will Luffy be able to save Law from a sure-death situation and when he'll emotionally be most tattered (thus mentioning the ghosts from the past and payback time for Dofla), because Luffy needs to go back to zero with Law and pay him back for saving him after Whitebeard war. They are rivals after all, and a pirate alliance isn't something that should last, so I would like them to continue after this arc as respected rivals who won't go head on with each other necessarily, but neither so needing to discard that kind of scenario if push comes to shove. A kind of relationship Shanks had with Whitebeard I think. EDIT: also, can you point it out where did he exactly move Dofla with his DF? Because I had the impression Trafy can just move himself and things he cut/he holds, not all living beings in room |
| This world is mine. I think this world may even just be a long, long dream I'm watching. You guys may just be illusions, and it can't be proven whether or not you really exist either. In other words, this world was created with me at the center. So what will happen if I die? I don't know. My imagination isn't very creative; I just can't imagine myself dying. In other words, there is no way this world can completely disappear. But if I die, then everyone will disappear. I am the only one in this world who won't disappear. The rest are just people I see as if in a dream. -Claire Stanfield, Baccano! |
kiDnameDSkia said: Well from what I gather, he's got kind a kind of telekinesis ability in addition to simply being able to sever things. Being an operation fruit, it seems like his operation room lets him have complete control over anything within its grasp; a good example being when he lifted the G-5's battleship, or when he deflected the meteor.EDIT: also, can you point it out where did he exactly move Dofla with his DF? Because I had the impression Trafy can just move himself and things he cut/he holds, not all living beings in room His shambles ability seems to be capable of swapping anything with something else within his room. This being a really good example: http://www.mangapanda.com/one-piece/723/15 Where he switches himself with a boulder. The scene I mentioned with him moving Doflamingo is this: http://www.mangapanda.com/one-piece/724/7 http://www.mangapanda.com/one-piece/724/8 Now, he may have moved Sanji... but what it looks like to me is he threw the log, and then swapped Doflamingo with the log (since you can see in the top panel on page 8 that Sanji is still near the ship), which is why Doflamingo ended up accidentally striking that tower. So far I haven't really been able to determine what benefit Law gets out of using a sword instead of always using his hands... unless it's something to do with reach / range. And he's been shown to be able to sever people without using a sword... so I don't really get it yet, but I'm sure there's a good reason. |
| ^ to me it looked like he swapped himself with the log when threw it so he can close up the distance and then later when reused room--> shambles either swapped himself with Dofla. But yeah, it's quite possible he swapped him. Yeah I know how his ability basically works but I was thinking atleast some limit must be implanted :D because for now the only thing stopping Law within room is haki it's kinda interesting to have those kind of paramecia fruits that scale way above logias (also, mythic zoans), like Laws for instance EDIT: also, the flying marine battleship wasn't the work of Law, I think it has something to do with Fujitora. But his ability is too messed up, I can't figure out what is he doing with it and what it has to do with him drawing his sword. At first I thought gravity (it would fit with flying the battleship too), but the only thing we've seen so far is him throwing meteors.. |
kiDnameDSkiaOct 12, 2013 6:08 AM
| This world is mine. I think this world may even just be a long, long dream I'm watching. You guys may just be illusions, and it can't be proven whether or not you really exist either. In other words, this world was created with me at the center. So what will happen if I die? I don't know. My imagination isn't very creative; I just can't imagine myself dying. In other words, there is no way this world can completely disappear. But if I die, then everyone will disappear. I am the only one in this world who won't disappear. The rest are just people I see as if in a dream. -Claire Stanfield, Baccano! |
kiDnameDSkia said: ^ to me it looked like he swapped himself with the log when threw it so he can close up the distance and then later when reused room--> shambles either swapped himself with Dofla. But yeah, it's quite possible he swapped him. Yeah I know how his ability basically works but I was thinking atleast some limit must be implanted :D because for now the only thing stopping Law within room is haki it's kinda interesting to have those kind of paramecia fruits that scale way above logias (also, mythic zoans), like Laws for instance EDIT: also, the flying marine battleship wasn't the work of Law, I think it has something to do with Fujitora. But his ability is too messed up, I can't figure out what is he doing with it and what it has to do with him drawing his sword. At first I thought gravity (it would fit with flying the battleship too), but the only thing we've seen so far is him throwing meteors.. But the meteors can come from space with a massive gravity pull :D you could argue that the earth would get a hole in it from gravity that huge, but it's one piece, a world where lava burns fire, lol. |
| Does anyone else need a doctor to confirm that someone without a head is dead? |
kiDnameDSkia said: Yeah, swapping the Log with himself then himself with Doflamingo could make sense too, hard to really tell there. It does seem like haki's the only known counter for any Devil Fruit powers (though we only know that it works kinda like Kairoseki in terms of a counter), I'm sure haki does do some things we dunno about, and if anyone knows about it I'm sure Doflamingo does.^ to me it looked like he swapped himself with the log when threw it so he can close up the distance and then later when reused room--> shambles either swapped himself with Dofla. But yeah, it's quite possible he swapped him. Yeah I know how his ability basically works but I was thinking atleast some limit must be implanted :D because for now the only thing stopping Law within room is haki it's kinda interesting to have those kind of paramecia fruits that scale way above logias (also, mythic zoans), like Laws for instance EDIT: also, the flying marine battleship wasn't the work of Law, I think it has something to do with Fujitora. But his ability is too messed up, I can't figure out what is he doing with it and what it has to do with him drawing his sword. At first I thought gravity (it would fit with flying the battleship too), but the only thing we've seen so far is him throwing meteors.. And yeah, with haki, Logias really aren't as powerful as they used to seem... Zoans are usually fairly straightforward, but Paramecias are the really unpredictable ones... pretty much anything goes. Also, nah I wasn't talking about the ship this chapter. I meant the G-5 ship back in the start of the Punk Hazard arc, my bad... I can see how that was kinda misleading. |
HalibelTheEspadaOct 12, 2013 8:38 AM
| Law sounds so ready to die I cant handle this. |
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| Boring, except for the last 4 pages This past thing better be good with all the hype. |
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| Sanji just got destroyed. |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
Shuda- said: HalibelTheEspada said: Law almost dies to a single kick to the head from Vergo. *cough*Probably the strongest busoshoku haki user yet. It does seem to be his specialty. Sanji doesn't falter against Vergo. Sanji stops Doflamingo in his tracks. Sanji forces Doflamingo to block and told he's strong. I don't like Sanji any more than any member of the crew, but I also don't think he's weak compared to Luffy or Zoro. It's not like Sanji was defeated... yet. He did however succeed in his goal in that fight, and if there's a next time he knows what he's up against. You mean the Vergo who was squeezing Law's heart while taking cheap-shots on him? And then panicking like mad when Law almost got his heart back? We all saw what happened as soon as he got it back (as I mentioned). What you just mentioned about Sanj only quantifies for time-stalling. He was saved both times, he couldn't hold his own. He cracked his leg against Vergo, and basically would've died against Doflamingo. Being told you're strong by a smiling and relaxed man just doesn't feel right. How many faces of agony has Doflamingo made, courtesy of Law? Read my first post with all the listings again. Second time is a charm. what are you talking about? vergo did destroy law without him crushing his heart(vergo was only hurting law with his heart after he beat law up to the ground), it was a legit victory on vergo's part. you're also missing the part that sanji bloodied up and burried vergo's face twice and vergo can't even land a single hit on sanji. you guys are soo underestimating sanji, he had no knowledge of doffy's powers that's why he was trapped, and the only way to fight off that technique is to dodge it, and knowledge plays an important role in dodging it which sanji had none of. if you remember a few chapters back jozu, a freaking commander of WB who was pretty much on the level of admirals was also stopped on his tracks by the same technique doffy used on sanji, only reason law was able to get out of it was because of his teleport. |
death604Jul 18, 2015 1:13 AM
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| They managed to escape. Wow, Law wants Doffy to get killed by Kaidou. |
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| Doflamingo isn't that bad, well...not at least to his subordinates. He seems determined to save them, or maybe there's actually a reason behind it. They might be valuable to him. |
 She got him back. If you understand the characters well enough, you'd know she did! |
| Bro Doffy just cut a damn building in half with that whip!! Oh now it's confirmed that Doffy has the power of the String-String fruit. AND HE FLIES BY SWINGING ON CLOUDS?? HAHAHAH I can't lie, considering all that's happening at the moment, I feel kinda bad for Caesar 😂 Hints at Law's backstory with Doffy? What happened 13 years ago!? |
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| So basically DoFla is Spiderman. Too bad for Sanji though. Think he would have lost even if he knew DoFla's powers. Zoro seems to be the best bet against him. |
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| 13 years ago?! Law hates Doflamingo!!!! kekeke |
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