KonaKoffee4 said: flannan said: Well, would you also say that Strike Witches isn't a fanservice show? They aren't wearing skirts (proudly displaying their panties) just because nobody in that setting wears skirts! I still think that Umisho (which is another anime about a swimming club, but with more girls) is quite fanservicey, because there is a lot of girls in swimsuits there. I haven't actually watched Free. If you want to call that fanservice then go ahead, but all I am saying is that the clothing of the characters don't always mean they are being degraded. It has to do with what is going on and the intent. It's a no brainer for people in free! to have shirtless scenes because they're on a swim team. If people want to call that servicing to the fans that's fine, but that doesn't mean they are being degraded. I find your link between fanservice and degradation to be hard to understand. Can you give a link to your favorite definition/explanation of "degraded"? Or give an explanation yourself, if it's not too hard. |
flannan said: KonaKoffee4 said: If you want to call that fanservice then go ahead, but all I am saying is that the clothing of the characters don't always mean they are being degraded. It has to do with what is going on and the intent. It's a no brainer for people in free! to have shirtless scenes because they're on a swim team. If people want to call that servicing to the fans that's fine, but that doesn't mean they are being degraded. I find your link between fanservice and degradation to be hard to understand. Can you give a link to your favorite definition/explanation of "degraded"? Or give an explanation yourself, if it's not too hard. Well in the context of anime and sexuality, usually a character is being degraded means that their worth is limited to only their body. They are stereotypical and/or essentially worthless, other than to be a "service" to the eyes. Fan service can be classified as a "service" for what the fans want, but the characters aren't always limited to just this. Certain scenes like in dragon ball (with Bulma) can be seen as a service to the fans, but her character isn't limited to only being a sexy bimbo. In free! each character has a purpose and meaning behind their personalities, and despite me finding the show to be stagnant that is something I must admit. You can call it fanservice because they have shirtless scenes if you want too, but I don't see how one can argue that they are being degraded based on the scenes. The same goes with certain ecchi series. |
 Banner credit to @turnip |
KonaKoffee4 said: flannan said: I find your link between fanservice and degradation to be hard to understand. Can you give a link to your favorite definition/explanation of "degraded"? Or give an explanation yourself, if it's not too hard. Well in the context of anime and sexuality, usually a character is being degraded means that their worth is limited to only their body. They are stereotypical and/or essentially worthless, other than to be a "service" to the eyes. Fan service can be classified as a "service" for what the fans want, but the characters aren't always limited to just this. Certain scenes like in dragon ball (with Bulma) can be seen as a service to the fans, but her character isn't limited to only being a sexy bimbo. In free! each character has a purpose and meaning behind their personalities, and despite me finding the show to be stagnant that is something I must admit. You can call it fanservice because they have shirtless scenes if you want too, but I don't see how one can argue that they are being degraded based on the scenes. The same goes with certain ecchi series. Thank you for the explanation. I would say that characters are rarely being degraded in anime, even in ecchi ones, but it does happen. |
| I could say a lot of things that begin with "should". Anime should try to push the boundaries and come up with innovative ideas. It should prioritize writing a coherent story with actual characters over pandering to the audience, but that's not how this works. Whatever sells is what gets made and it's the same across all mediums. Transformers, pop idols, battle harems, and this is fine. Anime is a business as well as an art, and it's ridiculous to ask creators to take these risk when we understand that making money is often the priority, but while there may be 100 Asterisk Wars for every Ping Pong we at the very least do get a Ping Pong and that is something made possible by turning an artistic medium into a business. No matter how generic modern anime may seem to you there will always be Annos and Yuasas who put everything they have into their work, and that isn't going to change just because generic sells. flannan said: Are you serious? This happens all the time, if there's a female character in a show then they will almost certanly be sexualized, which isn't inherently bad but when you combine that with archetypes that cater to weird male fantasies about having an abrasive girl who is otherwise an unpleasant badass fall in love with you simply because you're the main character, or when what could have been a meaningful or even heartwarming (often familial) relationship gets devalued by the need to cram fan service into every possible opening I find that very degrading, and I'm not even a woman. And to be clear I was referring to Asuna and Suguha with my examples but it's applicable to countless characters. I'm not sure if people just aren't very observant or if the bar has been set so low that this is what passes for an acceptable character.I would say that characters are rarely being degraded in anime, even in ecchi ones, but it does happen. This is a loaded question OP. |
merryfistmasMar 14, 2016 8:30 AM
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| I've seen few people talking about "bait" in this thread, even though I'm being serious from the beginning. Is that a new convenient excuse to make others' arguments and opinions look stupid and not worthy of discussion? I'd like to have a proper debate. @Nico- ">quoting Kotaku" --> sorry, I must be wrong and these articles must be bullshit. "And I read your OP, so how dare you disrespect glorious U・M・R hai UMA janai yo." --> ;) "That show ironically perfectly describes where everyone is happy" --> you sound like it's not, at least partly, the result of cynical producers. I mean, "omg she's so cute and smart and she's an otakuxDDD lmao an Eva reference and I can project myself and true happiness is to buy to consume". Well, to be fair, I only watched the first three episodes and couple of small videos on youtube. But still. "Do you not like people being happy?" --> c'mon, drop the shocking sentences, what's the next step, "DO YOU WANT TO BE LIKE HITLER"? And it's not like I already wrote few words about it. "blah blah blah bait" --> :) "it's those who won't try new things that fall victim to new creations." --> since the majority of anime fans don't usually watch "old" shows, don't usually try new things, I don't know to whom this is addressed. "We 'consumerist otaku' actually know why we like things and that does not mean we are evil, mentally retarded, "autistic" shut-ins with no lives." --> because I've said something like that before. @flannan "I don't actually notice the quality of animation unless is sinks too deeply, so you should ask somebody who does." --> if you don't notice / care about the animation (and there is nothing wrong with that), why did you talk about making beautiful things and complicated action sequences in the first place? I'll admit that HotD has some rememberable sequences (not necessarily greatly animated ones tho), and actually accomplishes pretty well what it tries to do (the same goes for Death Note, SnK, and probably most of Tetsuro Araki's works). "I distrust moralists, because they're the people who are likely to lead you to only loneliness and unhappiness with their views which are always outdated." --> simply saying that it's moralistic so it's probably not relevant, is pretty convenient. Hideako Anno in Evangelion, among other things, criticizes "otakus" (this word hadn't exactly the same meaning in 1995 as today) and encourages them to open themselves to the world, and to communicate more (the famous "Even though humans can hurt each other, sometimes they choose not to. That is what makes human interaction worthwhile." thing)... It's kinda moralistic so it's nonsense? |
FunkyNano said: As long as people watch Happy Feet, it's ok.  I'm not particularly bothered with what people watch, It's not like you can dictate what shows people like, not yet anyway, I'll keep experimenting. I'd probably get a little salty if something I wasn't a fan of got a continuation over something I like though. Yeahh, this right here. All of it. I'm bitter that shows like Naruto and One Piece have a trillion episodes but Spice and Wolf can't even get a third season (no hate towards fans of Naruto and One Piece, those shows just really annoy me). |
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paraze said: @Gator http://kotaku.com/evangelion-creator-predicts-the-death-of-anime-1706738732 (look at the three links at the end: 1, 2, 3) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ba55wWnEn3s (you can search the full video on google I think) --> to see what some passionate people can do if they're given the freedom to make what they want https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPzeO5iPJ4M --> same http://www.capsulecomputers.com.au/2014/05/a1-pictures-animator-suicide-caused-by-overwork http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2009/03/04/national/future-of-anime-industry-in-doubt http://en.rocketnews24.com/2014/01/30/ghiblis-hayao-miyazaki-says-the-anime-industrys-problem-is-that-its-full-of-anime-fans And just look at the amount of lazy LN / manga / whatever adaptation we get every season. Also, Gurren Lagann is one of the most popular anime of all time, and is appreciated by non-mecha fans, newcomers and connoisseurs. What are you talking about. I think I get what you mean when you talk about Evangelion (blah blah blah hipsters who think that every modern anime is shitty and circlejerk with others elitists... even though I'm exaggerating, am I wrong?), but it's total non-sense. Evangelion is even more popular than TTLG, and like TripleSRank said, "The 'new anime is best, old anime sucks' group is much, much larger" than the group claiming that modern anime sucks and retro is better. Have you watched ME! ME! ME! (NSFW but still safer than DxD... well, maybe not) by the way? :) Edit: @Nico- I was just stating the obvious, you said that people didn't have the power to control the anime industry, but it's wrong. @flannan, could you give me some examples of those beautiful and complex animated sequences? Well since you decided to post links i'll gladly go through and tell you why they're not valid. The first one the current standing of the industry actually contradicts what he was saying. I will grant he was right about issues with the business model, under-payed overworked employees, tight schedules, high expectations. But ironically they also say things like "shows need to use more computer graphics to enhance effects, which almost always meets with significant backlash from people who think they're art critics. But all that being said in that past year the overall anime revenue gain has drastically increased compared to recent years because of things like licensing to other countries, like having shows air in China has been a huge revenue boost. Little Witch Academia I mentioned in a prior post, this was a series that was made as part of an anime mirai project and was basically advertising the new Studio Trigger that split off of Gainax. That being said Trigger has a ton of experienced employees, lots of backing, funding, connections, etc. even then they ended up crowdfunding through kickstarter to make a sequel to Little Witch Academia and have created Kill la Kill, their most successful original series and have focused on adaptations since. Onto the A-1 link, it's a well known fact that animators are paid less than fast food workers and the business model often includes them being paid based on how much work they do, versus the quality of the work. The sheer number of cuts they can draw up to the studio standard decides how much money they make on a project. I've already mentioned this earlier in the thread it's a tough job that only the people who really love it are able to handle. The ones who are willing to push through the rough times, get experience, and are forced to claw their way up through the business. That being said slice of life shows like Umaru would probably be a blessing, they're fun, cutesy, easy to work on because the scenes are pretty stationary. Much like the way schools are popular settings there's a very clear cut method that's easy to adapt to for even inexperienced animators. This also covers the next link you posted. Now onto Miyazaki, I know his films are very highly praised and he's a very stubborn old man who required so much perfection in his works that he literally handled 3 jobs himself while making them. Arguably Miyazaki would contradict the eva creator in saying that things should be hand drawn based on observations to make them look realistic, while the eva creator would say they need more computer graphics to make it look flashy and interesting. That is just one example of how art is completely subjective and his only criticism is that he blames the fans for buying things that he doesn't like the animation styles of. That's just another side of the coin of saying "retro anime was better because everything was hand drawn and more realistic" when let's be honest, it wasn't. It's been just as absurd, over the top, unrealistic as it ever was. The only difference now is there are computers to make the whole process much more efficient and easier. |
GamerDLMMar 14, 2016 2:45 PM
merryfistmas said: flannan said: Are you serious? This happens all the time, if there's a female character in a show then they will almost certanly be sexualized, which isn't inherently bad but when you combine that with archetypes that cater to weird male fantasies about having an abrasive girl who is otherwise an unpleasant badass fall in love with you simply because you're the main character, or when what could have been a meaningful or even heartwarming (often familial) relationship gets devalued by the need to cram fan service into every possible opening I find that very degrading, and I'm not even a woman. And to be clear I was referring to Asuna and Suguha with my examples but it's applicable to countless characters. I'm not sure if people just aren't very observant or if the bar has been set so low that this is what passes for an acceptable character.I would say that characters are rarely being degraded in anime, even in ecchi ones, but it does happen. I was specifically using KonaKoffee4's definition: the character not being limited to her/his body. And I think Asuna and Suguha aren't. Suguha's story might have been more tragic than heartwarming, but SAO is more tragic than heartwarming overall, so it fits well. paraze said: @flannan "I don't actually notice the quality of animation unless is sinks too deeply, so you should ask somebody who does." --> if you don't notice / care about the animation (and there is nothing wrong with that), why did you talk about making beautiful things and complicated action sequences in the first place? I'll admit that HotD has some rememberable sequences (not necessarily greatly animated ones tho), and actually accomplishes pretty well what it tries to do (the same goes for Death Note, SnK, and probably most of Tetsuro Araki's works). 1) I do some fanart, so I have some idea of what is pleasant or hard to do. And I sure can talk about still shots, backgrounds and things like that! 2) I just wanted to make you understand that for an artist or animator, what matters isn't the overall quality of the plot, but the beauty and challenge of individual shots and sequences. Directors and scriptwriters do the plotting. I don't really know what it's like, but I think they see their own beauty that is about pacing and tension and comically dropping all that tension with a loli barging in when things get too hot. You would not get too far with just knowledge you're working on a masterpiece - it's like those nationalists being proud they're part of an impressive nation. paraze said: "I distrust moralists, because they're the people who are likely to lead you to only loneliness and unhappiness with their views which are always outdated." --> simply saying that it's moralistic so it's probably not relevant, is pretty convenient. Hideako Anno in Evangelion, among other things, criticizes "otakus" (this word hadn't exactly the same meaning in 1995 as today) and encourages them to open themselves to the world, and to communicate more (the famous "Even though humans can hurt each other, sometimes they choose not to. That is what makes human interaction worthwhile." thing)... It's kinda moralistic so it's nonsense? Screw communication. Screw extrovert propaganda. Things should be working fine without me constantly prodding them along. That's what we have laws and rules and regulations for! Ahem. What we were talking about? Ah yes, I don't see MeMeMe's message the way you do. All I see is a man with a broken relationship drowning his sorrows in anime. I don't see the part where they claim that the relationship got broken because of anime. Relationships don't work out for any number of reasons. |
KonaKoffee4 said: flannan said: I find your link between fanservice and degradation to be hard to understand. Can you give a link to your favorite definition/explanation of "degraded"? Or give an explanation yourself, if it's not too hard. Well in the context of anime and sexuality, usually a character is being degraded means that their worth is limited to only their body. They are stereotypical and/or essentially worthless, other than to be a "service" to the eyes. Fan service can be classified as a "service" for what the fans want, but the characters aren't always limited to just this. Certain scenes like in dragon ball (with Bulma) can be seen as a service to the fans, but her character isn't limited to only being a sexy bimbo. In free! each character has a purpose and meaning behind their personalities, and despite me finding the show to be stagnant that is something I must admit. You can call it fanservice because they have shirtless scenes if you want too, but I don't see how one can argue that they are being degraded based on the scenes. The same goes with certain ecchi series. According to your definition, most anime characters aren't degraded. Many are used for fanservice, yes, but it's just another thing. Rarely you get an aggressive show like Green Green, but in my experience in a lot of fanservice shows the female characters, no matter how sexualized, still do a lot things. |
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TheBrainintheJar said: KonaKoffee4 said: Well in the context of anime and sexuality, usually a character is being degraded means that their worth is limited to only their body. They are stereotypical and/or essentially worthless, other than to be a "service" to the eyes. Fan service can be classified as a "service" for what the fans want, but the characters aren't always limited to just this. Certain scenes like in dragon ball (with Bulma) can be seen as a service to the fans, but her character isn't limited to only being a sexy bimbo. In free! each character has a purpose and meaning behind their personalities, and despite me finding the show to be stagnant that is something I must admit. You can call it fanservice because they have shirtless scenes if you want too, but I don't see how one can argue that they are being degraded based on the scenes. The same goes with certain ecchi series. According to your definition, most anime characters aren't degraded. Many are used for fanservice, yes, but it's just another thing. Rarely you get an aggressive show like Green Green, but in my experience in a lot of fanservice shows the female characters, no matter how sexualized, still do a lot things. Well I don't watch a lot of series that are considered moe, ecchi, shounen, or other types where degrading characters is more popular. The thing is that since anime is so diverse you can avoid the ones that have degraded female characters and other stereotypical traits. So I don't want to say most anime aren't degrading only because I haven't seen enough to make that assumption. Clothing doesn't equate to the character being degraded, it depends on the context. Society focuses so much on clothing being a symbol of misogyny that they lose sight on when the mysogny actually occurs. Yes, there are times where the character is supposed to be played off like some dominatrix strong female character, when in reality she's just a stereotype and a fetish. I have seen this many times before, and it is embarrassing. I even think tsunderes are degrading as a whole because they make it appear that a female character is only strong when she's pushing around other people instead of having true strength from within. To me, I'd rather watch a bunch of girls fighting in bikinis, that still remain strong willed and kind, than watch tsunderes punching and kicking the male lead. The same goes with most of those archetypes, they are just bad examples of female personalities. |
| Banner credit to @turnip |
flannan said: If you're talking about characters who are used for fan service at the exclusion of all else, then it's true that it rarely happens, but the number of characters who are written archetype first and character second, or are clearly created with fan service or a certain fetish in mind is huge. Kona said it perfectly.merryfistmas said: Are you serious? This happens all the time, if there's a female character in a show then they will almost certanly be sexualized, which isn't inherently bad but when you combine that with archetypes that cater to weird male fantasies about having an abrasive girl who is otherwise an unpleasant badass fall in love with you simply because you're the main character, or when what could have been a meaningful or even heartwarming (often familial) relationship gets devalued by the need to cram fan service into every possible opening I find that very degrading, and I'm not even a woman. And to be clear I was referring to Asuna and Suguha with my examples but it's applicable to countless characters. I'm not sure if people just aren't very observant or if the bar has been set so low that this is what passes for an acceptable character. I was specifically using KonaKoffee4's definition: the character not being limited to her/his body. And I think Asuna and Suguha aren't. Suguha's story might have been more tragic than heartwarming, but SAO is more tragic than heartwarming overall, so it fits well. KonaKoffee4 said: This new wave of "strong" female characters is retarded, having characters be strong or bitchy or any of these other traits that people like to bring up to deny any amount of misogyny have little to do with gender equality. This is why I don't have a problem with Kill la Kill. They're nearly naked the whole show but they're actually characters, there's development, their personalities are meaningful in the story, and do you want to know why that is?Clothing doesn't equate to the character being degraded, it depends on the context. Society focuses so much on clothing being a symbol of misogyny that they lose sight on when the mysogny actually occurs. Yes, there are times where the character is supposed to be played off like some dominatrix strong female character, when in reality she's just a stereotype and a fetish. I have seen this many times before, and it is embarrassing. I even think tsunderes are degrading as a whole because they make it appear that a female character is only strong when she's pushing around other people instead of having true strength from within. To me, I'd rather watch a bunch of girls fighting in bikinis, that still remain strong willed and kind, than watch tsunderes punching and kicking the male lead. The same goes with most of those archetypes, they are just bad examples of female personalities. Imaishi said: Because they were written as males. (keep in mind this decision was made very early on so I can't say what changed afterwards in produciton or writing)One of my favorite things about Kill la Kill is the wildness of the female cast. So often in anime, I feel like the female characters are meant to hold back, just be a little funny or a little angry, but nothing so wild as they are in Kill la Kill. Did you have any specific feelings towards the wildness and variety in Kill la Kill's women? Imaishi: I think some part of it has to do with me favoring strong, centered women--you know, like for action-heavy stuff--but the original story of Kill la Kill was actually meant to be done with all male characters. The scripts Nakashima-san wrote had that intent in mind. So we just changed the sex of the cast to female, and that's probably why the characters are so wild. |
merryfistmasMar 15, 2016 11:36 AM
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flannan said: KonaKoffee4 said: Also, I can't speak for all women like me, but I would never consider shows like free! fanservice lol they just swim and they're only shirtless because they swim. Well, would you also say that Strike Witches isn't a fanservice show? They aren't wearing skirts (proudly displaying their panties) just because nobody in that setting wears skirts! The girls in that show don't really have a reason to not wear pants. So yeah, it's pretty much a fanservice show. In Free!, they're shirtless because they're swimming. |
KonaKoffee4 said: Although I will say that it's not just men who enjoy fanservice, because as cherry said there are men who don't enjoy fanservice. With that said, I know other women who enjoy fanservice (yes, even when the fanservice involves female characters). But like I said, they will always generalize. I'm one of those who find fanservice to be unnecessary. Most of the times it shows that the Anime doesn't have its focus on the important stuff. Oh, and don't forget there is also manservice :).. what is your feminist opinion on that? (i dunno if this question got already asked; sorry if this is redundant) |
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| I can't give you a simple yes or no answer. As long as there is enough material I find personally entertaining I'm completely happy with the status quo. The moment I cannot is where I start to have a problem. While I currently have many cartoons and novels to fall back on when I can't find any enjoyable animes that might not always be the case. It's a selfish viewpoint I know but it's the one I hold. |
abudura said: KonaKoffee4 said: Although I will say that it's not just men who enjoy fanservice, because as cherry said there are men who don't enjoy fanservice. With that said, I know other women who enjoy fanservice (yes, even when the fanservice involves female characters). But like I said, they will always generalize. I'm one of those who find fanservice to be unnecessary. Most of the times it shows that the Anime doesn't have its focus on the important stuff. Oh, and don't forget there is also manservice :).. what is your feminist opinion on that? (i dunno if this question got already asked; sorry if this is redundant) Yeah the comments i stated above are basically my opinion on that subject. |
| Banner credit to @turnip |
| omg all this "degrading" talk.... its not fucking real lol.... anyone should be able to make fiction however they want... thats kind of the point of fiction... ANYTHING is possible... i don't understand why people compare anime to real life... theyre fictional characters.... in a fictional world.... theyre fictional characters... who act fictionally..... and the people who created them have fantasies... thats all it is.... a fantasy.... lol anime is full of stereotypes... who cares lol? |
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KonaKoffee4 said: TheBrainintheJar said: According to your definition, most anime characters aren't degraded. Many are used for fanservice, yes, but it's just another thing. Rarely you get an aggressive show like Green Green, but in my experience in a lot of fanservice shows the female characters, no matter how sexualized, still do a lot things. Well I don't watch a lot of series that are considered moe, ecchi, shounen, or other types where degrading characters is more popular. The thing is that since anime is so diverse you can avoid the ones that have degraded female characters and other stereotypical traits. So I don't want to say most anime aren't degrading only because I haven't seen enough to make that assumption. Clothing doesn't equate to the character being degraded, it depends on the context. Society focuses so much on clothing being a symbol of misogyny that they lose sight on when the mysogny actually occurs. Yes, there are times where the character is supposed to be played off like some dominatrix strong female character, when in reality she's just a stereotype and a fetish. I have seen this many times before, and it is embarrassing. I even think tsunderes are degrading as a whole because they make it appear that a female character is only strong when she's pushing around other people instead of having true strength from within. To me, I'd rather watch a bunch of girls fighting in bikinis, that still remain strong willed and kind, than watch tsunderes punching and kicking the male lead. The same goes with most of those archetypes, they are just bad examples of female personalities. Tsundered definitely have the whole 'conquering the strong female' fetish going on. It's sexier becaus the women fight until they submit. An anime like Green Green doesn't just have ecchi. It's not like DXD where Rias Gremory wakes up naked next to Issei. Green Green is full of sexually humiliating situations which are played off for laughs. A lot of ecchi shows are guilty of that, but nothing like Green Green. Some come close - Freezing has its share, but at the same it's a series where the female characters are active. You cannot remove them. Many moments are created to show off their sexiness, but at the same time they drive the plot. In my experience, in Western films you can remove the hot girl and no one would notice. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
Mamster-P said: i don't understand why people compare anime to real life... theyre fictional characters.... in a fictional world.... theyre fictional characters... who act fictionally..... 1) Basically, they hold the opinion that media is a propaganda effort that forms the world of tomorrow. This opinion is often contested by people who love the media where socially unacceptable things happen, be it crime, violence or lolicon. Like me. They see it as the outlet for things that trouble people today. By the way, today's Japanese people don't see much physical violence (there is plenty of political and psychological violence in Japan from what I know), and have a lot of troubles in opposite sex relationships (or lack of them). 2) While modern anime does a good job teaching that girls are not all the same (something western media has trouble with), people feel that its portrayal of women is troublesome anyway. Particularly in the "you can get any girl" part - a lot of more popular women want men (who are not up to their standards) to stop thinking like that. I feel that accusations of female characters being "walking tropes" are unjustified - most works give both male and female characters roughly equal complexity. A harem lead is no more fleshed-out than his/her harem. |
| @flannan you i agree for me its like, you should NEVER feel degraded by a fictional character, unless the fictional character is supposed to be a representation of the real word, which anime clearly isn't. maybe a movie that is meant to represent real life i can understand, but not a cartoon character lol |
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| everyone has their own standard what it should call a good or great anime. |
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Nico- said: Mamster-P said: @flannan you i agree for me its like, you should NEVER feel degraded by a fictional character, unless the fictional character is supposed to be a representation of the real word, which anime clearly isn't. maybe a movie that is meant to represent real life i can understand, but not a cartoon character lol Right, and Japanese cartoon characters mind that. It's supposed to be fiction, but it's the author who decides how realistic it is. The only people who feel degraded by anime are probably insecure or just flat out ignorant and will always view anime as something too foreign to them. It boggles my mind as to why they constantly watch something they know will be so unsettling and unfamiliar. God bless your soul, you're one of the few remaining people with direct common sense here. Shame people have to rail you for being that way. If the community wanted to think rationally, they'd be more like you, not scattered like the pseudo-critics here. lol well thanks.... yes.. fiction should remain fictional, and be looked as fictional... don't bring those ideas into the real world the more you speak your mind the more you'll be bashed... whether what you're saying is good or bad COUGH!!!DONALD DUMB-ASS SHOULD NEVER GET ELECTED TRUMP i at least try to stay rational with all my opinions concerning anime, and just fiction in general... which is why i constantly find myself whining about the people who whine about it, as if whining on the internet has any impact on anything |
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| @Mamster-P Daily reminder that you're defending this. Quite a lot of women work at KyoAni btw, so by following your logic I guess most of them are lesbian... yeah. I recently watched Kaleido Star, and the episodes directed by Takaaki Wada (the episodes where Rosetta appears a lot) contain some fanservice, and that's understandable since he finds Rosetta very cute, likes her character a lot, and might have a little perverted mind. And it's ok because it was actually, you know, subtle, these episodes weren't full of weird bouncing and angles. Seriously it almost sounds like you seriously think that an anime's staff can't control themselves and their fantasies. Also, "b-but, it's fiction, it's not real", sure fictional stuff cannot possibly influence our mind, sure sexist anime like SAO don't make some teenagers thinking that the guy has to protect his girlfriend cause he's a real man and she's a girl for example, sure advertising (radio, tv) doesn't work, sure propaganda is bullshit. "b-but, videos games don't make you violent!", thing is, most people who enjoy SAO actually project themselves into Kirito, tries to identify to him, they want to be like Kirito (I mean, he is best and coolest player in the world, has a harem, etc). At the very least, such anime don't help people to act and think less sexist (especially if they watch ton of shows like that). |
parazeMar 16, 2016 11:55 AM
| @Alexmakina well yea ofcourse i mean, the non generic anime that make the most money are going to make more money than the generic ones. its just that if a non generic anime flops its money down the drain, since generic anime don't have to battle eachother |
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@Paraze: You sound exactly like this Alexmakina said: Actually non generic animes can make a lot of money (monogatari, madoka, NGE) All three of those anime are "generic" anyways, kek |
| @Nico-, Oh c'mon, try to prove me wrong, try to prove me that SAO isn't sexist and can't make some easily influenced teenager thinking that it's the man's job to protect his woman for example, try to prove me that DxD isn't garbage, try to don't use "argument" like that. Just you to know, I almost never made researches on feminism, or discussed with a feminist. I just try to be open-minded and respectful. Nice fallacy, tho. P.S: I guess NGE is generic because of the grope scene. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) |
| Sure, why the fuck not? Being happy is good right? |
 |
| @Paraze @Nico-, Oh c'mon, try to prove me wrong, try to prove me that SAO isn't sexist and can't make some easily influenced teenager thinking that it's the man's job to protect his woman for example, try to prove me that DxD isn't garbage, try to don't use "argument" like that. Just you to know, I almost never made researches on feminism, or discussed with a feminist. I just try to be open-minded and respectful. Nice fallacy, tho. Why don't you actually prove that it's sexist? No one needs to disprove a statement hat wasn't even proven yet.P.S: I guess NGE is generic because of the grope scene. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Immahnoob said: @Paraze @Nico-, Oh c'mon, try to prove me wrong, try to prove me that SAO isn't sexist and can't make some easily influenced teenager thinking that it's the man's job to protect his woman for example, try to prove me that DxD isn't garbage, try to don't use "argument" like that. Just you to know, I almost never made researches on feminism, or discussed with a feminist. I just try to be open-minded and respectful. Nice fallacy, tho. Why don't you actually prove that it's sexist? No one needs to disprove a statement hat wasn't even proven yet.P.S: I guess NGE is generic because of the grope scene. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) Was about to list few obviously sexist elements in SAO, but hey. Seriously dude, Asuna is presented as a strong and dependent woman, as a badass... but don't worry Kirito is going to fight for you against a random inoffensive player! She actually saves him... but no it's Kirito who saves her at the end! And she gets locked in a dungeon or whatever during the second half of the first season, can't do anything, and Kirito saves again and again Asuna. And that's just one thing among others. |
Nico- said: @Paraze: You sound exactly like this Alexmakina said: Actually non generic animes can make a lot of money (monogatari, madoka, NGE) All three of those anime are "generic" anyways, kek Im not gonna talk about eva since its 20 years old so calling such and old anime generic doesnt make sense, Im not really into mahou shojo anime but from what I've seen madoka is kind of diferent (I know there are other anime like Utema or nanoha which also are different from standar happy little girls having fun). But a supernatural anime which uses metaphors and tons of dialogue in order to get to understand their problems combiend with a unioque animation style should not be ocnsider generic (in spite of its fanservice). |
| @paraze paraze said: So fitting tropes is now sexist? Phew, and I thought you had an argument. Here we are when you don't...Was about to list few obviously sexist elements in SAO, but hey. Seriously dude, Asuna is presented as a strong and dependent woman, as a badass... but don't worry Kirito is going to fight for you against a random inoffensive player! She actually saves him... but no it's Kirito who saves her at the end! And she gets locked in a dungeon or whatever during the second half of the first season, can't do anything, and Kirito saves again and again Asuna. And that's just one thing among others. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
| @Immahnoob I didn't talk about tropes after the link, what are you talking about. Why don't you answer me. Also: I'm not saying it's wrong to use these tropes. I don't understand you... Don't only read the original post btw, well read it properly first, then read the rest. |
| @paraze You gave me a list of supposed reasons for why SAO is sexist, the list involved tropes. That list didn't prove that it's sexist though, it just tells me that you guys have no idea what you're talking about. What you wrote after the link does not prove it to be "sexist" either. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
| Whoever said the purpose of "entertainment" was to provoke happiness? |
 |
Polychrome said: Whoever said the purpose of "entertainment" was to provoke happiness? to entertain people they must be happy. |
PoeticJustice said: Producers always look like a sorry bunch to me.Polychrome said: Whoever said the purpose of "entertainment" was to provoke happiness? to entertain people they must be happy. |
|
| @Immahnoob I don't know what's your definition of sexism but I'm pretty sure that SAO is sexist. Well, to be fair, I don't exactly know the difference between sexism and misogyny or whatever, but SAO is definitely offensive against women, and treats its female characters pretty badly. Or do you think that almost always presenting girls as weak people who need to be protected, having the main character saving them all even though it's not needed, seeing them as prize... is totally legit (because he's a man right ^^''')? And I didn't even talk about sexualization. Another cool (and better IMO) link. |
parazeMar 16, 2016 3:05 PM
Polychrome said: Producers always look like a sorry bunch to me. I mean for people to be entertained they must be happy. |
| I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend to be one of those deaf-mutes |
I'm also filled with pure-hearted ulterior motives. |
ilovewendy16 said: It's fine as long as they keep it to themselves? What if I applied that reasoning to this opinion of yours? As it is, to me, much like you said, overly and completely, disgustingly, logically depraved.If people want to watch boring anime that's fine, if you don't think its boring, good for you. The only problem i have is when people rave over actually bad anime. I mean anime with no morals/no respect for life/overly violent/a completely disgustingly depraved plot. I am kinda disturbed by what people call entertainment sometimes. There are certain things that are just not okay to enjoy, in my opinion. |
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CrappyGod-sama said: I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend to be one of those deaf-mutes Can I inherit your profile, so you can accurately portray this role? |
 |
Tylaen said: There are so many risks with that... I don't know if I can trust you, Tylaen-kun. I want to belieeeeeeeeeve but I can't bring myself to do it.CrappyGod-sama said: I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend to be one of those deaf-mutes Can I inherit your profile, so you can accurately portray this role? |
| I'm also filled with pure-hearted ulterior motives. |
CrappyGod-sama said: Worry not, I've taken a bachelors degree In trustworthiness so your fears are largely unfounded; I promise I'll return it when you return with an oscar. After decorating your page with lewd Fate/stay night art There are so many risks with that... I don't know if I can trust you, Tylaen-kun. I want to belieeeeeeeeeve but I can't bring myself to do it. |
|
paraze said: No, it's not sexist against women or treats them unfairly. This is what we call nitpicking.@Immahnoob I don't know what's your definition of sexism but I'm pretty sure that SAO is sexist. Well, to be fair, I don't exactly know the difference between sexism and misogyny or whatever, but SAO is definitely offensive against women, and treats its female characters pretty badly. Or do you think that almost always presenting girls as weak people who need to be protected, having the main character saving them all even though it's not needed, seeing them as prize... is totally legit (because he's a man right ^^''')? And I didn't even talk about sexualization. Another cool (and better IMO) link. I mean, I could laugh at your ass and tell you how unfairly Kirito is being treated for always having to be so strong. Why can't he stay down and have the women do the work instead? Why can't he just be a weakass protagonist? How sexist towards men... It's like you didn't read or watch the Anime. Every character has their moments and personalities. If they don't fit your agenda, that does not make them sexist. Hell, your worst example is Asuna, because you have no idea she got an entire arc to herself. Don't bother replying to me if you're going to have such a weak argument. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Tylaen said: Only if you can make me a more like-able person at the end of the day. I fear that the MAL community perceives me as a pretentious douchebag that is nothing but a shit stain in the forums of this website who does nothing but berate other users with sarcasm and insults without ever giving a proper and thoughtful response to the questions of topic. I wish to be back with a following of nerds and be held in higher esteem than the good-for-nothing loser that I am right now. Do you happen to have a bachelors degree in charisma as well, my friend? Will my life MAL reputation be turned around and will I be an object of admiration and desire in the community? Will I be happy and therefore okay?CrappyGod-sama said: Worry not, I've taken a bachelors degree In trustworthiness so your fears are largely unfounded; I promise I'll return it when you return with an oscar. After decorating your page with lewd Fate/stay night art There are so many risks with that... I don't know if I can trust you, Tylaen-kun. I want to belieeeeeeeeeve but I can't bring myself to do it. |
| I'm also filled with pure-hearted ulterior motives. |
| @Immahnoob "This is what we call nitpicking" --> This is what I call a convenient excuse for not answering properly. "Why can't he stay down and have the women do the work instead?" --> Ever heard of nuance? Balance? Equality? I could laugh at Kirito for being overpowered for no reason and a poorly-written character, but that's another debate. "Hell, your worst example is Asuna, because you have no idea she got an entire arc to herself." I'm talking about 90% of the anime (and I guess 90% is nitpicking btw). You didn't answer me, you didn't read the other thread properly, and probably didn't bother read the article. Dude I'm asking for a discussion, for real. Seriously, "nitpicking", try to answer me for god's sake, |
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