Battle shounen being misunderstood on this website

@DigiCat
"99% of the time the roots of the conflicts there were coming from A) Bulling and B) Dealing with the sins committed by the previous generations." -
Well, I just read it as an exaggeration meaning many of them are like this or contain themes being similarly worthless [to him]. Thanks - that clears up my question.

"i can only assume he's judging them before actually giving any attention to the story"
Tbh it's a vicious cycle. If there is little substance/meaning reaching you, you get bored. I you get bored you'll give no attention and miss more. If you miss more, you'll see even less substance/meaning with the potential of reaching you.
So even being unaware of the content of a show is a strong indicator it has little substance/meaning. Though it is kind of awkward to present yourself as knowing everything well if you didn't gave attention.

@Kenzolo-folk
"This does not prove that the series I listed have no meaning."
As long as neither one of you engages in adopting the same interpretation of 'meaning' temporarily while talking about the other's statement, you're both just going round in circles.

"Like all of his points, thats completely subjective."
To be concrete: It is a subjective assesment of an objective value of subjective opinions (at least I believe he just imposes his impression instead of having measured it). Though he sometimes is also only talking about his opinion only - but not every time.

"And adults are notorious shounen jump fans. Believe it or not but even themes as basic as "never give up" "dont abandon your friends" and "enjoy the simple things in life" still resonate a lot with adults, if not, more."
I will not fall into the trap of confidently misestimating how the relations are in different demographics ... but I would believe that the ones making shounen magazines likely know who's their target group and try to reach them. If they would not reach more teens than adults I do not see how the terms shounen/seinen came along and stayed this popular.
A statistic how age relates to rating of shounen vs. other things sounds kind of interesting though (but it seems the age median has gone from 16 to 19-24 (likely lower end) based on the statistics about shounen jump and weekly shounen jump).
I personally think the greatest similarity between shounen fans isn't the age but their high emotional reactivity, firm moral principles and low willingness to enter the first-level logic basis of higher logic (things more commonly found in younger people) ... but that's just my underlying feeling/impression of those liking shounen compared to others.

Random people have their own subjective opinion on what battle-shounen are.

I have seen people classifying One Piece as one, and I have seen people who don't, I have seen people who classify AOT as one, and I have seen people who don't, etc...

Like the chanters act edgy for the sake of it, not because people would act like this is such circumstances. If fact people wouldn't survived if they acted like that.
For example the MC of Kaijuu 8-gou would act an say stupid childish stuff which teenager would be embarrassed from, even less the 30+ years old he is.


Do you intend to ask the meaning of every word?


I agree, for example Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu is not edgy, the titles you listed are.


Which is my point exactly point (if we skip the "fair" part) - you are seeing way too much in battle shounen. This why it is you who are "misunderstanding" the genre, not the average MAL user.


I pretended it doesn't exist? Why I am even posting here than?


But I was cliticising you for seeing it as way more elaborated than it is.


Said the person who praises products which goals are to pander, addict and hype teens, for being deep products.




Not really, said action shounen needs more traits like power levels, tree of skills, the fights coming in a form of duels and other stuff.

so is my hero academia not a battle shonen? Because it doesn't have power level beyond just some characters being stronger because that's how action is, every character has their own skills and abilities and many fights aren't exactly 1v1

@Guilmon1 it's a literary genre, of course there'll be slight variations...

Anything can be a edge case, because once again, this is just a made up term with no actual definition.

@JaniSIr yes but there has to be something in common in the entire genre, other than that it's tropes. Every romance will have a romance, every slice of life will be about the life of the characters, every isekai will be about transportation to another world.
The only thing connecting every battle shonen is being an anime about fighting for teenagers, everything he said is just a common trope, not something that has to be in a battle shonen

And actual terms have an actual definition, something battle-shounen doesn't have. You can find multiple contradicting definitions across the internet. It's a subjective thing, thus trying to treat it as an objective thing is useless & retarded

That's hilarious: 9 pages of two-screen long posts (on my mobile) discussing battle shonen, and in the end we find out there is no agreement on what battle shonen is.

That's hilarious: 9 pages of two-screen long posts (on my mobile) discussing battle shonen, and in the end we find out there is no agreement on what battle shonen is.

@ShinyLotus

“personally think the greatest similarity between shounen fans isn't the age but their high emotional reactivity, firm moral principles and low willingness to enter the first-level logic basis of higher logic (things more commonly found in younger people) ... but that's just my underlying feeling/impression of those liking shounen compared to others.”

>this sounds like a verbose way of saying shounen fans are dumb lmao

@JaniSIr yes but there has to be something in common in the entire genre, other than that it's tropes. Every romance will have a romance, every slice of life will be about the life of the characters, every isekai will be about transportation to another world.
The only thing connecting every battle shonen is being an anime about fighting for teenagers, everything he said is just a common trope, not something that has to be in a battle shonen

That's hilarious: 9 pages of two-screen long posts (on my mobile) discussing battle shonen, and in the end we find out there is no agreement on what battle shonen is.

Shock-desu!


That may be your opinion, but personally I saw nothing of value in those...maybe because I don't enjoy drama for the sake of it.


Think again about the rest, will you?

To the places of those I have reached:

Black Clover - MC is bullied
MHA - MC is bullied, some of the now villains are ex-heroes from the previous generation
FMA - the father of the MCs started part of the bad stuff which is going on, also they have has father issues aside of the main plot
Hunter x Hunter - haven't watched it, but the father of the MC is missing thus - father issues
Noragami - they wasted the whole first season to un-bullie the sword-person of the MC.
AOT - the world is messed up by the previous generations (MC's fathor was a key factor), the MC is bullied, has father issues aside of the main plot
Soul Eater - most of the villains are from the previous generation, the good guys from the previous generation are kind of useless, Crona's mother messed him big time
Full Metal Panic - the previous generation definitely messed up the world (this is why the Whispered appeared). Gauron was more or less a father figure for Sousuke and look what his second father figure Lt. Kalinin did in the forth season...


I think people misunderstood the show. For me it's a dark nerdy comedy about how a mahou shoujo would work with certain a type of magical system.
It's a "Lets nerd out!" kind of a show, like Dungeon Meshi or Kusuriya no Hitorigoto.


If you had watched at least as much mahou shoujo as I have watched battle shounen you would be saying that.


But that's the thing, I have never stumbled upon deep mahou shoujo either. Even a more elaborated one as Princess Tutu is still not made to have "substance".



Of course MHA has power levels - https://power-level.fandom.com/wiki/Boku_No_Hero_Academia_Power_Levels
But yeah, some battle shounen have more roundabout ways to measure power levels. Like the award money on the wanted posters in One Piece.

Shock-desu!


That may be your opinion, but personally I saw nothing of value in those...maybe because I don't enjoy drama for the sake of it.


Think again about the rest, will you?

To the places of those I have reached:

Black Clover - MC is bullied
MHA - MC is bullied, some of the now villains are ex-heroes from the previous generation
FMA - the father of the MCs started part of the bad stuff which is going on, also they have has father issues aside of the main plot
Hunter x Hunter - haven't watched it, but the father of the MC is missing thus - father issues
Noragami - they wasted the whole first season to un-bullie the sword-person of the MC.
AOT - the world is messed up by the previous generations (MC's fathor was a key factor), the MC is bullied, has father issues aside of the main plot
Soul Eater - most of the villains are from the previous generation, the good guys from the previous generation are kind of useless, Crona's mother messed him big time
Full Metal Panic - the previous generation definitely messed up the world (this is why the Whispered appeared). Gauron was more or less a father figure for Sousuke and look what his second father figure Lt. Kalinin did in the forth season...


I think people misunderstood the show. For me it's a dark nerdy comedy about how a mahou shoujo would work with certain a type of magical system.
It's a "Lets nerd out!" kind of a show, like Dungeon Meshi or Kusuriya no Hitorigoto.


If you had watched at least as much mahou shoujo as I have watched battle shounen you would be saying that.


But that's the thing, I have never stumbled upon deep mahou shoujo either. Even a more elaborated one as Princess Tutu is still not made to have "substance".



Of course MHA has power levels - https://power-level.fandom.com/wiki/Boku_No_Hero_Academia_Power_Levels
But yeah, some battle shounen have more roundabout ways to measure power levels. Like the award money on the wanted posters in One Piece.

@alshu
barely accurate oversimplifications of the story isn’t proving anything to anyone. You still sound like a close-minded idiot who can’t handle the fact battle shounen goes outside your shitty definitions. You couldn’t even prove a single thing to the specific titles I listed because you knew you were wrong 😂

Not to mention how your definition suddenly changes. At first it was “the older generation ruined everything let’s fight them” now it’s “the problems were caused by people of the older generation.” Hella fucking vague, way too general. You just change things to fit your poor argument lmfao. None of the animes are characters fighting the older generation because “they messed things up.”

@Kenzolo-folk in his defence the theme of the problems caused by the older generations does appear a lot in shonen, but it appears a lot in anime in general

"They see fights and screaming characters and immediately their first instinct is ...it can't possibly be deep." YUP- that's exactly right. Those two things are not deep in any way. You nailed it there.

"I mean there's a reason a lot of people say their lives were changed after watching... One Piece and Naruto". Indeed- and all those people are FIVE.
Kids entertainment is for kids.

"Just because it's packed with fights scenes..." Yes, it being packed with just fights does mean it lacks substance. That is precisely the description of lacking in substance. I AGREE.

Easily digestible action (your words)

is just that.

@Guilmon1

Right, but how is a story meaningless or not deep just because some of the problems were caused by the older generation? Literally the NEW generation also causes problems 😂. It’s called having a layered plot and some worldbuilding. I’m sure we can nitpick tons of anime from his list with the exact same premise (or for that matter repeated premises in his favorite shows). In battle shounen (except for One piece) it’s hardly even the theme or the focus.

@Kenzolo-folk that isn't a problem, gundam has that as one of its main themes and it's a really interesting theme when done well

That's hilarious: 9 pages of two-screen long posts (on my mobile) discussing battle shonen, and in the end we find out there is no agreement on what battle shonen is.

I don't think they are one monolith thing, as far as I know the One Piece one is fine...so you tell me.



I don't think there's a point of arguing with you since you ignored a lot from what I said and focused on one thing you though you got me with - edgy...than ignored what I said about it too.
So yeah - you are free to disagree, but you should know that when you use expressions like "close-minded idiot" and "outside your shitty definitions" it's to your own detriment.

OK, if there aren't power levels it's not battle shounen...but people keep talking about said levels - https://www.quora.com/How-do-you-guys-scale-My-Hero-Academia
Maybe one should be a manga reader of MHA or something.

Shock-desu!


That may be your opinion, but personally I saw nothing of value in those...maybe because I don't enjoy drama for the sake of it.


Think again about the rest, will you?

To the places of those I have reached:

Black Clover - MC is bullied
MHA - MC is bullied, some of the now villains are ex-heroes from the previous generation
FMA - the father of the MCs started part of the bad stuff which is going on, also they have has father issues aside of the main plot
Hunter x Hunter - haven't watched it, but the father of the MC is missing thus - father issues
Noragami - they wasted the whole first season to un-bullie the sword-person of the MC.
AOT - the world is messed up by the previous generations (MC's fathor was a key factor), the MC is bullied, has father issues aside of the main plot
Soul Eater - most of the villains are from the previous generation, the good guys from the previous generation are kind of useless, Crona's mother messed him big time
Full Metal Panic - the previous generation definitely messed up the world (this is why the Whispered appeared). Gauron was more or less a father figure for Sousuke and look what his second father figure Lt. Kalinin did in the forth season...


I think people misunderstood the show. For me it's a dark nerdy comedy about how a mahou shoujo would work with certain a type of magical system.
It's a "Lets nerd out!" kind of a show, like Dungeon Meshi or Kusuriya no Hitorigoto.


If you had watched at least as much mahou shoujo as I have watched battle shounen you would be saying that.


But that's the thing, I have never stumbled upon deep mahou shoujo either. Even a more elaborated one as Princess Tutu is still not made to have "substance".



Of course MHA has power levels - https://power-level.fandom.com/wiki/Boku_No_Hero_Academia_Power_Levels
But yeah, some battle shounen have more roundabout ways to measure power levels. Like the award money on the wanted posters in One Piece.

Well, different shows which are considered being battle shounen and are quite popular kept doing those same things...it's only natural to lump them together.


It's one of the core themes tho and it's everywhere. The more exotic themes in shounen and battle shounen feel more like cosmetic changes.


Yes it can. It's always the new generation fixing the mistakes of the previous ones or dealing with their bad heritage, almost without any outside help.


Twisting my assumptions like that is quite funny...like unintentionally funny.

Imagine me changing my mind only because you told me so...

It's a miracle!


If "it" is against my personal experience, no amount of your gaslighting will convince me.


Said by person who finds Black Clover, MHA, FMA, Noragami, AOT, Soul Eater and Full Metal Panic deep. (I included the non-battle shounen for comparison and to filter my supposed prejudice against the genre.)
Yes, some of those go dark, have trauma and shock in store for its characters, so what? None treats/executes those deeply and meaningfully. Said e;ements are used simply as tools to push your emotional buttons. They are cheap melodrama instead of serious drama.
If you see something more in those its your subjective perception.

By the way I like some of the list (FMA:B, Soul Eater and FMP), but I fail to see those as deep and meaningful.



And you still cannot trigger me with such obvious methods.

Now where's the fun of that?


Yeah, personal attacks will convince me...that you are grasping at straws to have at least some sort of impact on me.


But you call those same personal opinions of yours the "objective true"...if I understood you correctly...kind of unfair.


But I never said that mine are objective, it kind of goes without saying that they are subjective, isn't it?


Interesting way to twist my words again...actually not that interesting.


Random examples from the top of my head (I already used in this topic, but I am too lazy to find new ones) - Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu and Oooku.


Thing is that you even don't really need themes which are that dark to have a quality drama,

Well, you said earlier:

Which means that from your perspective your take was objectively true,


Well, I am not surprised and since now you have trashed one of my favourites, can you finally calm down and go doing something fun?

Most of the distaste for battle shounen in general that I’ve seen throughout the years were found in the MAL forums. Battle shounen appears to be pretty popular outside of online forums though. I haven’t spent much time looking at anime Subreddits, but I would imagine that there might be some distaste for battle shounen in some of them as well. 

The takeaway for me is that niche online communities will tend to have an aversion to battle shounen, while many anime fans outside of the internet wouldn’t have as much of an aversion to battle shounen. Basically, it's a non-mainstream vs mainstream communities sort of thing.

But as for whether it's a misunderstanding of battle shounen on the haters'/critics' part or not, well, I think it kind of depends on whether they've seen the shows or not. There are those who've seen the shows before criticizing, and those who've never seen the shows and still criticize them. I would imagine that most who've seen at least a pretty good chunk of the original Naruto series for example, would at least know why a good number of the characters and themes resonate with people so much. There are themes like childhood loneliness, the importance of family and friends, zero to hero, loyalty vs betrayal, peace vs war, life and death, etc. On paper, it probably doesn't seem that deep for people, but I think it's the addition of the soundtrack as well as the overall execution that probably sold it for the fans.

@GinInYourJuice Battle shounen is like the genre that the people who watch anime, but don't really watch anime watch.

@JaniSIr I think there are some longtime anime watchers/veterans that still prefer battle shounen over most other genres, but there are also those who only got into anime and battle shounen because their friends have an interest in them, and because it’s considered safe and acceptable to like lol. But yeah, I think a lot of battle shounen lovers either quit anime altogether shortly after, or they continue to watch anime but grow out of battle shounen over time.