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Battle shounen being misunderstood on this website

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Aug 15, 3:05 PM

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Jan 2021
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200 hundred replies, and not one actually managed to give a counter-argument to the OP claim.

Also, from my understanding, battle-shounen just means an action series belonging to the shounen demographic. I don't see why people treat it as a genre of its own.
Aug 15, 3:08 PM

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Oct 2012
16086
Reply to Cielord
200 hundred replies, and not one actually managed to give a counter-argument to the OP claim.

Also, from my understanding, battle-shounen just means an action series belonging to the shounen demographic. I don't see why people treat it as a genre of its own.
Cielord said:
I don't see why people treat it as a genre of its own.
Really? You don't think devoting something to a target demographic might shape its contents?
My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com
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Aug 15, 3:15 PM

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Kenzolo-folk said:
Brother how is it edgy.

Like the chanters act edgy for the sake of it, not because people would act like this is such circumstances. If fact people wouldn't survived if they acted like that.
For example the MC of Kaijuu 8-gou would act an say stupid childish stuff which teenager would be embarrassed from, even less the 30+ years old he is.

Kenzolo-folk said:
You can’t just label something without any explanation.

Do you intend to ask the meaning of every word?

Kenzolo-folk said:
Not everything with sad backstories and violence is just straight edginess

I agree, for example Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu is not edgy, the titles you listed are.

Kenzolo-folk said:
it’s unfair to say battle shounen is meaningless when it actually does have a lot of meaning to it

Which is my point exactly point (if we skip the "fair" part) - you are seeing way too much in battle shounen. This why it is you who are "misunderstanding" the genre, not the average MAL user.

Kenzolo-folk said:
but pretending like it doesn’t

I pretended it doesn't exist? Why I am even posting here than?

Kenzolo-folk said:
isn’t even a fair critique

But I was cliticising you for seeing it as way more elaborated than it is.


Said the person who praises products which goals are to pander, addict and hype teens, for being deep products.



Cielord said:
battle-shounen just means an action series belonging to the shounen demographic

Not really, said action shounen needs more traits like power levels, tree of skills, the fights coming in a form of duels and other stuff.
alshuAug 15, 3:33 PM
Aug 15, 3:18 PM
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Jul 2020
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Reply to Kenzolo-folk
@katsucats

“Whining” against injustice? As if pointing out something Injust is wrong or immature? Despite history practically revolving around people calling out injustice??
The fact you say it’s whining when injustice is argued says a lot.
And speak for yourself, all I hear in battle shounen communities IS people discussing the nuance. There will obviously always be people that only want to be entertained, but a LOT of young people pay attention to the nuances in fiction aimed at tweens and teens


When philosophers do it!“challenging each others philosophies” its deep, but when shounen does it it’s suddenly not 😅
@Kenzolo-folk

Thats not the issue here. The issue is that these shows cover these topics in the most shallow manner. The typical battle Shonen protagonists rarely introspect on their very personal philosophies, ideas and goals. Luffy never once questions his life-time goal of becoming Pirate-King, Naruto never questions his 'bond' with Sasuke, at all. It was something definite. All about 'Never giving up' and that sort.

Though, Naruto came into conflict with his idea of becoming Hokage during the Pain Arc, but all of that was quickly undone when he did that shitty talk-no-jutsu with him. But his one-sided relationship with Sasuke is never given doubt by him. When he is questioned about it, he gives the same generic answers about never giving up, and those sort of things. These types of MCs are the most convenient for authors to write because it pushes the plot forward without any need to give a character meaningful development. There's a reason why they're most common in an industry where authors are given very tight weekly deadlines.
Aug 15, 3:19 PM

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Apr 2020
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Reply to ShinyLotus
@Kenzolo-folk
Don't worry. I'm also willing to shit on him when he opens the gates instead of staying in his castle.
I'm just a little jealous of him because I tend to write endless walls of text and am unable to condense it into something that is expendable when needed. Especially when combining opinions that relate to my taste and logic/semantics in some direct or indirect way at the same time.

(I had to look up "holy gaze meaning Gen-Z" XD ... I'm already too old, even though I'm still young)
@ShinyLotus

Really fair tbh I also get envious of people on here who can organize their thoughts more coherently than me on this website
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Aug 15, 3:19 PM

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Reply to katsucats
Cielord said:
I don't see why people treat it as a genre of its own.
Really? You don't think devoting something to a target demographic might shape its contents?
@katsucats I can kind of understand him. Some of them like Chainsaw Man, Sousou no Frieren, Death Note or Nichijou don't feel like their counterparts of a [ ? (genre) x Shounen (demographic)] = ? shounen as genre to me either. Even though I can see that they are shounen and ? at the same time if you look at it separately.
"I don't know everything, I only know what the internet knows." - Definitely not best girl.
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Aug 15, 3:27 PM

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Reply to Kenzolo-folk
@katsucats

“Whining” against injustice? As if pointing out something Injust is wrong or immature? Despite history practically revolving around people calling out injustice??
The fact you say it’s whining when injustice is argued says a lot.
And speak for yourself, all I hear in battle shounen communities IS people discussing the nuance. There will obviously always be people that only want to be entertained, but a LOT of young people pay attention to the nuances in fiction aimed at tweens and teens


When philosophers do it!“challenging each others philosophies” its deep, but when shounen does it it’s suddenly not 😅
@Kenzolo-folk Be honest, you haven't read a single philosophical argument if you're comparing the shallow motivations comic book writers aim at little kids with serious discussions about the meaning of things. The fact that you are unironically saying everything you're saying proves my point.
My subjective reviews: katsureview.wordpress.com
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Aug 15, 3:32 PM

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Apr 2020
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Reply to Zlyiond
@Kenzolo-folk

Thats not the issue here. The issue is that these shows cover these topics in the most shallow manner. The typical battle Shonen protagonists rarely introspect on their very personal philosophies, ideas and goals. Luffy never once questions his life-time goal of becoming Pirate-King, Naruto never questions his 'bond' with Sasuke, at all. It was something definite. All about 'Never giving up' and that sort.

Though, Naruto came into conflict with his idea of becoming Hokage during the Pain Arc, but all of that was quickly undone when he did that shitty talk-no-jutsu with him. But his one-sided relationship with Sasuke is never given doubt by him. When he is questioned about it, he gives the same generic answers about never giving up, and those sort of things. These types of MCs are the most convenient for authors to write because it pushes the plot forward without any need to give a character meaningful development. There's a reason why they're most common in an industry where authors are given very tight weekly deadlines.
@Zlyiond

Luffy does actually have a lot of retrospect towards his personality and his goal. In the saboady arc he immediately punches a celestial dragon which puts his entire team in danger and his actions caused them to be separated for two years. Luffys overconfidence at first is endearing but quickly becomes a liability. He questions if he’s strong enough for this goal because he greatly underestimated the marines. Up until Thriller bark and arguably marineford, Luffy overhyped himself too much and thought he was invincible. When he loses ace he realizes that he has a lot of development to do. I think Naruto’s obsession with bringing back sasuke makes sense given his upbringing. Because he’s always been friendless, the one connection he made no matter how shallow it was he held onto that for an unreasonably long time. Other ninjas and even Itachi is confused by how much he’s willing to go for sasuke 😭 but I think dude was just lonely. But he’s said many times that he related to Sasuke’s loneliness. The naruto series isn’t perfect so there’s some obvious hiccups, but naruto does undoubtedly question his ideas and philosophies.

I definitely agree that they’re very convenient for the authors to write but although the “never give up” theme is everywhere, it still speaks to a lot of people regardless. I think it’s also easier for authors to put themselves into their work becwuse they also had to not give up on their dreams. Like the author of naruto who was rejected numerous times by his editor and was also allegedly a social outcast when he was a kid.
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Aug 15, 3:33 PM

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Reply to katsucats
Cielord said:
I don't see why people treat it as a genre of its own.
Really? You don't think devoting something to a target demographic might shape its contents?
@katsucats It can shape its content, but it doesn't make it a genre. If you watched/read a significant number of any demographic, then you would see series totally different from each other.

Shounen: Death Note and Demon Slayer.
Seinen: Kaguya Sama & Vagabond.

I barely watched any shoujo, but from the little I watched, Natsume Yuujinchou & Mushishi are clearly different from the rest, who were generic shoujo romcoms.

And I don't think I watched any josei.
Edit: I actually watched some josei, though only 2, (Koroshi Ai & Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu) and they were very different from each other.

The series demographic depend on it's magazine, and what the magazine allows or does not allow can shape their content, and I believe this is mainly/only in cases of nudity and gore.

AOT was considered too violent for Shounen Jump, but another shounen magazine (Bessatsu Shounen Magazine), was fine with AOT violence. So we can see that different magazines of the same demographic have different ideas of what suits their demographic, making further differences within the same demographic.

There are also cases like Vinland Saga, who switched from a shounen magazine to a seinen magazine, not because of its content, but because Yukimura sensei found out he could not keep up a long-term weekly production schedule.
CielordAug 15, 3:43 PM
Aug 15, 3:35 PM

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Reply to katsucats
@Kenzolo-folk Be honest, you haven't read a single philosophical argument if you're comparing the shallow motivations comic book writers aim at little kids with serious discussions about the meaning of things. The fact that you are unironically saying everything you're saying proves my point.
@katsucats

Woah dude, I’m not saying they’re equally as deep, I’m saying they both are doing the same thing. Conceptually “challenging each others philosophies” can be deep on its own. But I’m not saying it’s to the level of actual historic philosophers😭. Does it have to be? Also love how you addressed 10% of my comment lol
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Aug 15, 3:37 PM

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Reply to alshu
Kenzolo-folk said:
Brother how is it edgy.

Like the chanters act edgy for the sake of it, not because people would act like this is such circumstances. If fact people wouldn't survived if they acted like that.
For example the MC of Kaijuu 8-gou would act an say stupid childish stuff which teenager would be embarrassed from, even less the 30+ years old he is.

Kenzolo-folk said:
You can’t just label something without any explanation.

Do you intend to ask the meaning of every word?

Kenzolo-folk said:
Not everything with sad backstories and violence is just straight edginess

I agree, for example Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu is not edgy, the titles you listed are.

Kenzolo-folk said:
it’s unfair to say battle shounen is meaningless when it actually does have a lot of meaning to it

Which is my point exactly point (if we skip the "fair" part) - you are seeing way too much in battle shounen. This why it is you who are "misunderstanding" the genre, not the average MAL user.

Kenzolo-folk said:
but pretending like it doesn’t

I pretended it doesn't exist? Why I am even posting here than?

Kenzolo-folk said:
isn’t even a fair critique

But I was cliticising you for seeing it as way more elaborated than it is.


Said the person who praises products which goals are to pander, addict and hype teens, for being deep products.



Cielord said:
battle-shounen just means an action series belonging to the shounen demographic

Not really, said action shounen needs more traits like power levels, tree of skills, the fights coming in a form of duels and other stuff.
@alshu And do you have only your words for it, or an actual definition?
Aug 15, 3:45 PM

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Cielord said:
And do you have only your words for it, or an actual definition?

I am kind of bored re-posting this around, but here we go:

It's a fantasy shounen which is specifically focused on battles and has:
- Power levels, a skill tree and those are organized under some sort of combat system (think Nen from Hunter x Hunter).
- The battles are usually individual even when part of a bigger fight and play out as duels - there are some rules and limitations.
Most used tropes:
- "Calling your attacks" - this helps fleshing out the combat system.
- Training arcs - a way of padding the story, yet an opportunity for fleshing out the combat system and characterization.
- Tournament arcs - yet another example of "lazy writing", but also the best opportunity for showcasing the combat system and characterization.
- Changing the focus to another plot thread just before something interesting is about to happen in the current plot thread.
- Flashback just before something interesting is about to happen (usually in the middle of the fight).
- Flashback in a flashback.
- Flashback in a flashback, in a flashback.
- The MC being kind of cringe in order to have room for character development.
- Tons of melodrama putted in those exact points when the story actually needs intense action (aka the cock blocking trope).
- After levelling up it's time for power fantasy and revenge porn.

The closest genre to battle shounen is sport shounen. Practically the same thing, but without the fantasy and the fighting is replaced with sport (so when about martial arts - the sport version of said fighting).


Aug 15, 3:47 PM

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Apr 2020
2907
Reply to alshu
Kenzolo-folk said:
Brother how is it edgy.

Like the chanters act edgy for the sake of it, not because people would act like this is such circumstances. If fact people wouldn't survived if they acted like that.
For example the MC of Kaijuu 8-gou would act an say stupid childish stuff which teenager would be embarrassed from, even less the 30+ years old he is.

Kenzolo-folk said:
You can’t just label something without any explanation.

Do you intend to ask the meaning of every word?

Kenzolo-folk said:
Not everything with sad backstories and violence is just straight edginess

I agree, for example Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu is not edgy, the titles you listed are.

Kenzolo-folk said:
it’s unfair to say battle shounen is meaningless when it actually does have a lot of meaning to it

Which is my point exactly point (if we skip the "fair" part) - you are seeing way too much in battle shounen. This why it is you who are "misunderstanding" the genre, not the average MAL user.

Kenzolo-folk said:
but pretending like it doesn’t

I pretended it doesn't exist? Why I am even posting here than?

Kenzolo-folk said:
isn’t even a fair critique

But I was cliticising you for seeing it as way more elaborated than it is.


Said the person who praises products which goals are to pander, addict and hype teens, for being deep products.



Cielord said:
battle-shounen just means an action series belonging to the shounen demographic

Not really, said action shounen needs more traits like power levels, tree of skills, the fights coming in a form of duels and other stuff.
@alshu

Do you intend to ask the meaning of every word
>meaning? No, I know what edgy means. Reason behind its constant usage? Yes 😂


“Like the chanters act edgy for the sake of it, not because people would act like this is such circumstances. If fact people wouldn't survived if they acted like that.
For example the MC of Kaijuu 8-gou would act an say stupid childish stuff which teenager would be embarrassed from, even less the 30+ years old he is”

>I don’t mean to be a blabbering bitch but this whole paragraph is so incoherent, idk what ur trying to say. And can you at least explain edginess regarding the shows I actually listed? I didn’t mention Kaijuu 8 anywhere.

“Which is my point exactly point (if we skip the "fair" part) - you are seeing way too much in battle shounen“
>I’m just giving the themes that are actually there, I’m not making up philosophies or themes, it’s what’s in the show and I’m voicing it to you. Never said battle shounen is the most deep genre there is, I’m defending it against the very wrong idea that it has no substance. I very clearly proved to you that there is indeed substance, it might not resonate with you but it exists
Kenzolo-folkAug 15, 3:57 PM
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Aug 15, 3:51 PM

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Reply to alshu
Cielord said:
And do you have only your words for it, or an actual definition?

I am kind of bored re-posting this around, but here we go:

It's a fantasy shounen which is specifically focused on battles and has:
- Power levels, a skill tree and those are organized under some sort of combat system (think Nen from Hunter x Hunter).
- The battles are usually individual even when part of a bigger fight and play out as duels - there are some rules and limitations.
Most used tropes:
- "Calling your attacks" - this helps fleshing out the combat system.
- Training arcs - a way of padding the story, yet an opportunity for fleshing out the combat system and characterization.
- Tournament arcs - yet another example of "lazy writing", but also the best opportunity for showcasing the combat system and characterization.
- Changing the focus to another plot thread just before something interesting is about to happen in the current plot thread.
- Flashback just before something interesting is about to happen (usually in the middle of the fight).
- Flashback in a flashback.
- Flashback in a flashback, in a flashback.
- The MC being kind of cringe in order to have room for character development.
- Tons of melodrama putted in those exact points when the story actually needs intense action (aka the cock blocking trope).
- After levelling up it's time for power fantasy and revenge porn.

The closest genre to battle shounen is sport shounen. Practically the same thing, but without the fantasy and the fighting is replaced with sport (so when about martial arts - the sport version of said fighting).


@alshu That's not an actual definition, that's just your words.
Aug 15, 4:10 PM
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Jul 2020
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Reply to Kenzolo-folk
@Zlyiond

Luffy does actually have a lot of retrospect towards his personality and his goal. In the saboady arc he immediately punches a celestial dragon which puts his entire team in danger and his actions caused them to be separated for two years. Luffys overconfidence at first is endearing but quickly becomes a liability. He questions if he’s strong enough for this goal because he greatly underestimated the marines. Up until Thriller bark and arguably marineford, Luffy overhyped himself too much and thought he was invincible. When he loses ace he realizes that he has a lot of development to do. I think Naruto’s obsession with bringing back sasuke makes sense given his upbringing. Because he’s always been friendless, the one connection he made no matter how shallow it was he held onto that for an unreasonably long time. Other ninjas and even Itachi is confused by how much he’s willing to go for sasuke 😭 but I think dude was just lonely. But he’s said many times that he related to Sasuke’s loneliness. The naruto series isn’t perfect so there’s some obvious hiccups, but naruto does undoubtedly question his ideas and philosophies.

I definitely agree that they’re very convenient for the authors to write but although the “never give up” theme is everywhere, it still speaks to a lot of people regardless. I think it’s also easier for authors to put themselves into their work becwuse they also had to not give up on their dreams. Like the author of naruto who was rejected numerous times by his editor and was also allegedly a social outcast when he was a kid.
@Kenzolo-folk

Bro, that's not what I am talking about. I am not talking about him questioning HOW he will become pirate-king, but WHY. WHY does it appeal to him a lot? His personal philosophies, ideas and morality is not even something he is aware of. What you are talking about is the consequences of his very hard-willed and stubborn personality, though I'd argue he doesn't suffer any meaningful set-backs in the story due to his flaws, but that is a different discussion entirely.

Naruto in contrast is different. He questions his ideals and philosophy, but only when the plot demands it convenient. Like I mentioned, he is able to somewhat question his life-goal of becoming Hokage once learning Konoha's corruption through Pain, but it is entirely sold on saving and redeeming Sasuke, no questions asked (Sasuke knew him for 7 months max). Or when he cries at the fate Haku had to face, and questions the idea that Shinobis must be tools used by others, but is conveniently made to gloss over the fate Itachi had to endure by Konoha itself (Itachi was used as a tool by the elders to wipe out his clan).


The never give-up gets tiring when over 100 shows have very similar themes. That is why people dislike battle shonen. It becomes excessively repetitive.
Aug 15, 4:23 PM

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Reply to Zlyiond
@Kenzolo-folk

Bro, that's not what I am talking about. I am not talking about him questioning HOW he will become pirate-king, but WHY. WHY does it appeal to him a lot? His personal philosophies, ideas and morality is not even something he is aware of. What you are talking about is the consequences of his very hard-willed and stubborn personality, though I'd argue he doesn't suffer any meaningful set-backs in the story due to his flaws, but that is a different discussion entirely.

Naruto in contrast is different. He questions his ideals and philosophy, but only when the plot demands it convenient. Like I mentioned, he is able to somewhat question his life-goal of becoming Hokage once learning Konoha's corruption through Pain, but it is entirely sold on saving and redeeming Sasuke, no questions asked (Sasuke knew him for 7 months max). Or when he cries at the fate Haku had to face, and questions the idea that Shinobis must be tools used by others, but is conveniently made to gloss over the fate Itachi had to endure by Konoha itself (Itachi was used as a tool by the elders to wipe out his clan).


The never give-up gets tiring when over 100 shows have very similar themes. That is why people dislike battle shonen. It becomes excessively repetitive.
@Zlyiond


WHY does it appeal to him a lot?
>he wants to be completely free dude, lmao. he says it many times.


"Sasuke knew him for 7 months max" yeah, its pointed out many times that Narutos obsession with sasuke is weird, but like I said Naruto relates to his loneliness and leeches onto any relationship he makes with somebody because hes always been friendless. Also hardly anyone knew about Itachi's sacrifice except a few people, its not surprising Naruto would be oblivious to this.
I agree the theme is extremely repetitive, but i will take this over shows that support giving up tbh lol. But its not like never give up is the only theme these shows have. Naruto and One piece are really the only major battle shounens that emphasize it to such an extent. Bleach, aot, csm, jjk, fma, they usually have different themes than just that.
either way its a valid criticism to make.
Kenzolo-folkAug 15, 4:27 PM
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Aug 15, 4:30 PM

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Kenzolo-folk said:
Reason behind its constant usage?

I mentioned this before, teens love edgy stuff, this is why we are getting it a lot in shounen and shoujo.

Kenzolo-folk said:
idk what ur trying to say

Skill issue?

Kenzolo-folk said:
can you at least explain edginess regarding to the shows I actually listed?

Naaah. man. I will say for example Eren, you will ask for even more derails ect to infinity.
You know perfectly well what I am talking, don't pretend...

Kenzolo-folk said:
I didn’t mentioned Kaijuu 8 anywhere.

Yes but:
1. It's a battle shounen.
2. It demonstrates how edgy battle shounen characters are written.

Kenzolo-folk said:
I’m just giving the themes that are actually there, I’m not making up philosophies or themes

Having a serious theme doesn't mean the show is making something particularly meaningful with it.

Kenzolo-folk said:
Never said battle shounen is the most deep genre there is

Not "deepest", but you said we aren't "undersetting" how deep those are...but actually we are.
Some show simply going dark is not that big of achievement - you need it to execute it skilfully. Naruto screaming his emotions in the face of the viewer is kind of blunt.

Kenzolo-folk said:
I’m defending it against the very wrong idea that it has no substance

What substance means to you (a rhetorical question)? Repeating some obvious stuff like "Have more friends and allies!" isn't, because we are talking teens here, not kindergarteners. They already know that.
alshuAug 15, 5:04 PM
Aug 15, 4:31 PM

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Reply to Cielord
200 hundred replies, and not one actually managed to give a counter-argument to the OP claim.

Also, from my understanding, battle-shounen just means an action series belonging to the shounen demographic. I don't see why people treat it as a genre of its own.
@Cielord If you consider all the tropes of the shows labelled you'll see it is indeed a genre.
Isekai is also a genre, even though technically it just means someone went to another world, but you know full well what people actually mean when they say that word.
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Aug 15, 4:35 PM

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Reply to alshu
Kenzolo-folk said:
Reason behind its constant usage?

I mentioned this before, teens love edgy stuff, this is why we are getting it a lot in shounen and shoujo.

Kenzolo-folk said:
idk what ur trying to say

Skill issue?

Kenzolo-folk said:
can you at least explain edginess regarding to the shows I actually listed?

Naaah. man. I will say for example Eren, you will ask for even more derails ect to infinity.
You know perfectly well what I am talking, don't pretend...

Kenzolo-folk said:
I didn’t mentioned Kaijuu 8 anywhere.

Yes but:
1. It's a battle shounen.
2. It demonstrates how edgy battle shounen characters are written.

Kenzolo-folk said:
I’m just giving the themes that are actually there, I’m not making up philosophies or themes

Having a serious theme doesn't mean the show is making something particularly meaningful with it.

Kenzolo-folk said:
Never said battle shounen is the most deep genre there is

Not "deepest", but you said we aren't "undersetting" how deep those are...but actually we are.
Some show simply going dark is not that big of achievement - you need it to execute it skilfully. Naruto screaming his emotions in the face of the viewer is kind of blunt.

Kenzolo-folk said:
I’m defending it against the very wrong idea that it has no substance

What substance means to you (a rhetorical question)? Repeating some obvious stuff like "Have more friends and allies!" isn't, because we are talking teens here, not kindergarteners. They already know that.
@alshu


are you trolling? lmfao. its so obvious you know you're just saying bullshit at this point
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Aug 15, 4:41 PM

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Reply to alshu
Cielord said:
And do you have only your words for it, or an actual definition?

I am kind of bored re-posting this around, but here we go:

It's a fantasy shounen which is specifically focused on battles and has:
- Power levels, a skill tree and those are organized under some sort of combat system (think Nen from Hunter x Hunter).
- The battles are usually individual even when part of a bigger fight and play out as duels - there are some rules and limitations.
Most used tropes:
- "Calling your attacks" - this helps fleshing out the combat system.
- Training arcs - a way of padding the story, yet an opportunity for fleshing out the combat system and characterization.
- Tournament arcs - yet another example of "lazy writing", but also the best opportunity for showcasing the combat system and characterization.
- Changing the focus to another plot thread just before something interesting is about to happen in the current plot thread.
- Flashback just before something interesting is about to happen (usually in the middle of the fight).
- Flashback in a flashback.
- Flashback in a flashback, in a flashback.
- The MC being kind of cringe in order to have room for character development.
- Tons of melodrama putted in those exact points when the story actually needs intense action (aka the cock blocking trope).
- After levelling up it's time for power fantasy and revenge porn.

The closest genre to battle shounen is sport shounen. Practically the same thing, but without the fantasy and the fighting is replaced with sport (so when about martial arts - the sport version of said fighting).


alshu said:
Flashback in a flashback, in a flashback
Wait what? Is that an actual thing? It's hard to believe that something like that could possibly exist.
Cucumber ice cream is the best!
Aug 15, 4:42 PM

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Apr 2020
2907
Reply to JaniSIr
alshu said:
Flashback in a flashback, in a flashback
Wait what? Is that an actual thing? It's hard to believe that something like that could possibly exist.
@JaniSIr


hes quite literally making up shit. i bet dude cant bring up one example where hes seen this
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Aug 15, 4:44 PM
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I don't have a problem with this myself everybody can have their taste but some are disrespectful. like saying One Piece is shit without even watching it or saying I hate MHA because the MC is shit without actual reasoning and a solid explanation. I say that Deku is not my type because he is a crybaby that is my reason but some people find a show as their punching bag.
Aug 15, 4:45 PM

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Kenzolo-folk said:
are you trolling? lmfao. its so obvious you know you're just saying bullshit at this point

Are you trolling?
Is it that hard to understand that battle shounen is pretty easy to get and that it has nothing deep about it?
Even the intended demographic is seeing it simply as entertainment, not as the substantial life lessons you see in it.


JaniSIr said:
Is that an actual thing?

One of the reasons battle shounen fans love this genre - they are masochists.
alshuAug 15, 5:07 PM
Aug 15, 4:48 PM

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alshu said:
Flashback in a flashback, in a flashback
Wait what? Is that an actual thing? It's hard to believe that something like that could possibly exist.
JaniSIr said:
Wait what? Is that an actual thing? It's hard to believe that something like that could possibly exist.


The closest thing I ever seen something like this happening was in "Record of Ragnarok" the freaken Anime is flooded with flashbacks which was one of the reasons why I completely lost interest in such an Anime. Ironically "Record of Ragnarok" is a Seinen Anime, technically not even a Battle Shounen. For what it's worth it might as well be Battle Shounen Boner Material just for the fact it quite literally tries hard to draw in such viewers.
ColourWheelAug 15, 5:09 PM
Aug 15, 4:49 PM

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JaniSIr said:
@Cielord If you consider all the tropes of the shows labelled you'll see it is indeed a genre.
Isekai is also a genre, even though technically it just means someone went to another world, but you know full well what people actually mean when they say that word.

The point is the labeling. Who decides the labeling?

If we go by my definition, then the shows labeled as such will be very different from each other.

My definition and other definitions mean nothing, because this is a made-up term with no official definition of its own. What random users think about it means nothing.

That's why I think all the obsession (and preferably the term itself) should just disappear.

When I hear isekai, I only know it means a person transported to another world.
Aug 15, 4:49 PM

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Kenzolo-folk said:
are you trolling? lmfao. its so obvious you know you're just saying bullshit at this point

Are you trolling?
Is it that hard to understand that battle shounen is pretty easy to get and that it has nothing deep about it?
Even the intended demographic is seeing it simply as entertainment, not as the substantial life lessons you see in it.


JaniSIr said:
Is that an actual thing?

One of the reasons battle shounen fans love this genre - they are masochists.
@alshu


I proved to you how it can have some deep substance, and you literally have not made one single argument against this. since my response its just been incessant bullshit from your end.
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Aug 15, 4:54 PM

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JaniSIr said:
@Cielord If you consider all the tropes of the shows labelled you'll see it is indeed a genre.
Isekai is also a genre, even though technically it just means someone went to another world, but you know full well what people actually mean when they say that word.

The point is the labeling. Who decides the labeling?

If we go by my definition, then the shows labeled as such will be very different from each other.

My definition and other definitions mean nothing, because this is a made-up term with no official definition of its own. What random users think about it means nothing.

That's why I think all the obsession (and preferably the term itself) should just disappear.

When I hear isekai, I only know it means a person transported to another world.
@Cielord The community has been labelling shows battle shounen for decades probably, and everyone understands exactly what they mean when they say that term.

And when I say everyone I do mean everyone, even those that go out of their way to label Alice in wonderland an isekai just to start an argument.
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Aug 15, 4:56 PM

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JaniSIr said:
Wait what? Is that an actual thing? It's hard to believe that something like that could possibly exist.


The closest thing I ever seen something like this happening was in "Record of Ragnarok" the freaken Anime is flooded with flashbacks which was one of the reasons why I completely lost interest in such an Anime. Ironically "Record of Ragnarok" is a Seinen Anime, technically not even a Battle Shounen. For what it's worth it might as well be Battle Shounen Boner Material just for the fact it quite literally tries hard to draw in such viewers.
@ColourWheel A while ago I decided to watch Hell's Paradise, that had some flash backs too, but what was really dumb is that the villains spent half the fight giving a step by step tutorial to the heroes on how to use magic to beat them.
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Kenzolo-folk said:
I proved to you

You did nothing of that, you claimed Naruto is deep and has substance (whatever this means in your school of thought)...and that's hilarious.

Kenzolo-folk said:
have not made one single argument against this

Of course you will ignore what I wrote or pretend to "idk what ur trying to say". No point of repeating the whole thing for the N-th time.

Kenzolo-folk said:
incessant bullshit

Said the person who accused us of not understanding properly mainstream blockbusters.

alshuAug 15, 5:08 PM
Aug 15, 5:03 PM

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JaniSIr said:
@Cielord The community has been labelling shows battle shounen for decades probably, and everyone understands exactly what they mean when they say that term.

And when I say everyone I do mean everyone, even those that go out of their way to label Alice in wonderland an isekai just to start an argument.

"For decades" I heavily doubt that.

The "community" is a group of individuals. Many of those individuals have differing and contradicting opinions about literally anything. The "community" can't and isn't some sort of official authority.
Aug 15, 5:04 PM

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Kenzolo-folk said:
I proved to you

You did nothing of that, you claimed Naruto is deep and has substance (whatever this means in your school of thought)...and that's hilarious.

Kenzolo-folk said:
have not made one single argument against this

Of course you will ignore what I wrote or pretend to "idk what ur trying to say". No point of repeating the whole thing for the N-th time.

Kenzolo-folk said:
incessant bullshit

Said the person who accused us of not understanding properly mainstream blockbusters.

@alshu

your "argument" is literally just "its edgy." Your example for this? From an anime I didn't even list. When I ask you to do it from an anime I list, "Nah man,"
Like cmon you have to be trolling. Not once did you respond to the themes from the animes I listed and actually took the effort to explain how its edgy or meaningless.

"Of course you will ignore what I wrote or pretend"
Im not gonna pretend to know what youre talking about if I dont actually understand it. Maybe its a skill issue, but your grammar is definitely a skill issue for you. That whole paragraph was an incoherent mess. I wanted more clarity so I could actually respond to it.
Kenzolo-folkAug 15, 5:08 PM
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Kenzolo-folk said:
your "argument" is literally just "its edgy." Your example for this? From an anime I didn't even list. When I ask you to do it from an anime I list, "Nah man,"
Like cmon you have to be trolling. Not once did you respond to the themes from the animes I listed and actually took the effort to explain how its edgy or meaningless.

"Of course you will ignore what I wrote or pretend"
Im not gonna pretend to know what youre talking about if I dont actually understand it. Maybe its a skill issue, but your grammar is definitely a skill issue for you. That whole paragraph was an incoherent mess. I wanted more clarity so I could actually respond to it.

No point of repeating the whole thing for the N-th time.

Dude, you are so lost.
Aug 15, 5:11 PM

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Kenzolo-folk said:
your "argument" is literally just "its edgy." Your example for this? From an anime I didn't even list. When I ask you to do it from an anime I list, "Nah man,"
Like cmon you have to be trolling. Not once did you respond to the themes from the animes I listed and actually took the effort to explain how its edgy or meaningless.

"Of course you will ignore what I wrote or pretend"
Im not gonna pretend to know what youre talking about if I dont actually understand it. Maybe its a skill issue, but your grammar is definitely a skill issue for you. That whole paragraph was an incoherent mess. I wanted more clarity so I could actually respond to it.

No point of repeating the whole thing for the N-th time.

Dude, you are so lost.
@alshu

Repeat what exactly? You've said virtually nothing. Ive never seen someone lose so hard at an argument and pathetically hang onto the nothing sauce of arguments they've made. What im getting at is that you're just lazy. I thought you had some actual validity to you but you just rambled onto bullshit halfway through, im ashamed I wasted my time with you.
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Shonens can be well written and thematically rich, Toyko Revengers is dogshit though.
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JaniSIr said:
@Cielord The community has been labelling shows battle shounen for decades probably, and everyone understands exactly what they mean when they say that term.

And when I say everyone I do mean everyone, even those that go out of their way to label Alice in wonderland an isekai just to start an argument.

"For decades" I heavily doubt that.

The "community" is a group of individuals. Many of those individuals have differing and contradicting opinions about literally anything. The "community" can't and isn't some sort of official authority.
@Cielord There are not many people who have different opinions about the definition of battle shonen, that's nonsense. There might be some edge cases where you could argue if a show is in it or not, because it's a genre definition and not a rigid mathematical one, but overall it's still a very descriptive genre label.
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Aug 15, 5:17 PM

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DigiCat said:
the type of person who judges a show simply because it's a certain genre

Thing is I have watched some of those you listed and their "substance" was "putrid water", not to mention 99% of the time the roots of the conflicts there were coming from A) Bulling and B) Dealing with the sins committed by the previous generations.

FMA:B, Soul Eater and Full Metal Panic (which is not battle shounen as mentioned above) were even fun...still quite shallow.
@alshu Thing is, their substence being "putrid water" is your opinion, and it's fair, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but opinions are subjective

Claiming "99% of the time the roots of the conflicts there were coming from A) Bulling and B) Dealing with the sins committed by the previous generations" is not a subjective opinion though, this is just telling me you disregarded those shows you watched before even attemptinbg to pay attention to them, because out of those shows i listed, only 2 of them have characters who their problems stem from bullying, and by have characters i mean 1 character per show out of the whole cast

You're opinion on (insert random battle shounen) is my opinion on Madoka, i think it's substence is, to use your words, putrid water, but that is my personal opinion, i'm not going to go out of my way to say "99% of mahou-shoujo are stereotipical and mechanical" or look down on people who do find depth in it and connect to the characters
Aug 15, 5:19 PM
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what's there to misunderstand, some of em just ain't that deep
Aug 15, 5:23 PM

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JaniSIr said:
@Cielord There are not many people who have different opinions about the definition of battle shonen, that's nonsense. There might be some edge cases where you could argue if a show is in it or not, because it's a genre definition and not a rigid mathematical one, but overall it's still a very descriptive genre label.

Do you have proof of this claim?

And even if we assume the majority does think like that, trying to use it as an argument will just be the ad populum fallacy.
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@alshu


are you trolling? lmfao. its so obvious you know you're just saying bullshit at this point
@Kenzolo-folk
I actually think you are unable to understand the basics of his perspective and only consider him trolling for this reason.
He's just trolling a little ... provoking would be more correct. He doesn't started spouting bullshit either, but he sticks to his world view since the beginning (very obvious if you compare his posts) in a serious way.
But I would agree that he is trying to convince others (like you) half-heartedly and is already satisfied if only some will understand him.

"I mentioned this before, teens love edgy stuff, this is why we are getting is a lot in shounen and shoujo." -
>He gave a lazy but direct answer.

"Skill issue?"
>He is annoyed with you don't getting his points and provokes you. So yes ... he's trolling a little.

"Naaah. man. I will say for example Eren, you will ask for even more derails ect to infinity.
You know perfectly well what I am talking, don't pretend..."
>He's being lazy again and maybe overestimating you. You probably just associate edgy with provocative and indecent, like most younger people (myself included). But it also has been used as trendy/fashionable, eccentric (like Avant Garde) or jittery. So it is easily applied to many things.

"Yes but:
1. It's a battle shounen.
2. It demonstrates how edgy battle shounen characters are written."
"Having a serious theme doesn't mean the show is making something particularly meaningful with it."
"Not "deepest", but you said we aren't "undersetting" how deep those are...but actually we are.
Some show simply going dark is not that big of achievement - you need it to execute it skilfully. Naruto screaming his emotions in the face of the viewer is kind of blunt."
>He's answering very direct and honest.
>Although he reinstates his low opinion of Naruto with a very stereotypical and simplistic explanation.

"What substance means to you (a rhetorical question)? Repeating some obvious stuff like "Have more friends and allies!" isn't, because we are talking teens here, not kindergarteners. They already know that."
>He does not mean objective substance. He does not mean things that he can do something with. He does not mean the average opinion about how much substance something has. He weights this average by regarding opinions as more valuable that do not change or only arise in the course of growing up - one of the natural interpretations that can be associated with this word (since most people consider their former self as dumb/inexperienced and therefore worth less).
>He states that he thinks to understand how you use the word substance and thinks it's less sensible than his usage in this context. (Spoiler: I actually agree with him. Stating that something has substance because it has some sort of objectively existing content that reaches at least some real persons [like you] is a nothing-burger.)
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@Kenzolo-folk
I actually think you are unable to understand the basics of his perspective and only consider him trolling for this reason.
He's just trolling a little ... provoking would be more correct. He doesn't started spouting bullshit either, but he sticks to his world view since the beginning (very obvious if you compare his posts) in a serious way.
But I would agree that he is trying to convince others (like you) half-heartedly and is already satisfied if only some will understand him.

"I mentioned this before, teens love edgy stuff, this is why we are getting is a lot in shounen and shoujo." -
>He gave a lazy but direct answer.

"Skill issue?"
>He is annoyed with you don't getting his points and provokes you. So yes ... he's trolling a little.

"Naaah. man. I will say for example Eren, you will ask for even more derails ect to infinity.
You know perfectly well what I am talking, don't pretend..."
>He's being lazy again and maybe overestimating you. You probably just associate edgy with provocative and indecent, like most younger people (myself included). But it also has been used as trendy/fashionable, eccentric (like Avant Garde) or jittery. So it is easily applied to many things.

"Yes but:
1. It's a battle shounen.
2. It demonstrates how edgy battle shounen characters are written."
"Having a serious theme doesn't mean the show is making something particularly meaningful with it."
"Not "deepest", but you said we aren't "undersetting" how deep those are...but actually we are.
Some show simply going dark is not that big of achievement - you need it to execute it skilfully. Naruto screaming his emotions in the face of the viewer is kind of blunt."
>He's answering very direct and honest.
>Although he reinstates his low opinion of Naruto with a very stereotypical and simplistic explanation.

"What substance means to you (a rhetorical question)? Repeating some obvious stuff like "Have more friends and allies!" isn't, because we are talking teens here, not kindergarteners. They already know that."
>He does not mean objective substance. He does not mean things that he can do something with. He does not mean the average opinion about how much substance something has. He weights this average by regarding opinions as more valuable that do not change or only arise in the course of growing up - one of the natural interpretations that can be associated with this word (since most people consider their former self as dumb/inexperienced and therefore worth less).
>He states that he thinks to understand how you use the word substance and thinks it's less sensible than his usage in this context. (Spoiler: I actually agree with him. Stating that something has substance because it has some sort of objectively existing content that reaches at least some real persons [like you] is a nothing-burger.)
@ShinyLotus

"Stating that something has substance because it has some sort of objectively existing content that reaches at least some real persons [like you] is a nothing-burger.)"

>And stating it doesnt exist because it doesnt particularly resonate with you or its "edgy" makes any more sense? What.

""Have more friends and allies!" A completely meaningless point. I specifically gave examples of animes with themes that don't even cross that threshold. But of course he chose to ignore that. Saying its "edgy" and "shallow" with no specific explanation is not an argument, hardly even a response.


" "Having a serious theme doesn't mean the show is making something particularly meaningful with it.""
>
Okay so what is your definition of meaningful? How can something be meaningful by your standards?
Just looking it up, here it is: Definition of meaningful: "having a serious, important, or useful quality or purpose." "communicating something that is not directly expressed."
My examples fit these.
Kenzolo-folkAug 15, 5:42 PM
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JaniSIr said:
@Cielord There are not many people who have different opinions about the definition of battle shonen, that's nonsense. There might be some edge cases where you could argue if a show is in it or not, because it's a genre definition and not a rigid mathematical one, but overall it's still a very descriptive genre label.

Do you have proof of this claim?

And even if we assume the majority does think like that, trying to use it as an argument will just be the ad populum fallacy.
@Cielord It's a genre definition. Words literally only have meaning *because* people agreed on them meaning something. Ad populum is not a fallacy here, because we are literally looking for what the popular usage of the word is.
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@DigiCat How do you come to that conclusion?
I just see him saying that he doesn't know one of them and that X is not analysed in depth here [in Battle Shounen], an impression he might have gained by actually having watched several instead of judging the cover. Maybe I'm missing something though.
@ShinyLotus

ShinyLotus said:
How do you come to that conclusion?


This line
alshu said:
99% of the time the roots of the conflicts there were coming from A) Bulling and B) Dealing with the sins committed by the previous generations.


Considering he said he watched some of the ones i listed, and only 2 of those listed have the roots he claims 99% have, and one of those is the one he hasn't watched, i can only assume he's judging them before actually giving any attention to the story
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JaniSIr said:
@Cielord It's a genre definition. Words literally only have meaning *because* people agreed on them meaning something. Ad populum is not a fallacy here, because we are literally looking for what the popular usage of the word is.

Random people have their own subjective opinion on what battle-shounen are.

I have seen people classifying One Piece as one, and I have seen people who don't, I have seen people who classify AOT as one, and I have seen people who don't, etc...
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@DigiCat not disagreeing with you there but typically the non shounen fan is looking to talk about other anime with the other person but when their recommendation is dismissed so quickly it leads to a biased dislike of that genre. Again, I don't think its one particular reason, it has to do with multiple factors and being that the genre is so huge and defended so vehemently makes it easy for people to get turned off. From the outside, it tends to look like a cult like behavior even though it's not the intention of the fanbase overall.
@smilebit Hello there :)

These post just reminded me of what you said and i found it quite ironic and pretty funny

The shounen fan: https://myanimelist.net/forum/?goto=post&topicid=2173971&id=71548644
The non-shounen fan: https://myanimelist.net/forum/?goto=post&topicid=2173971&id=71548697


Like i said, i don't think one side does this more than the other, it just got a laugh outta me that it's happening right on this thread

Btw, i'm reading the rest of the conversation and it just gets more hilarious
DigiCatAug 15, 6:01 PM
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@ColourWheel A while ago I decided to watch Hell's Paradise, that had some flash backs too, but what was really dumb is that the villains spent half the fight giving a step by step tutorial to the heroes on how to use magic to beat them.
@JaniSIr

lol I remember that happening in "Hell's Paradise" (It was one of the things I found hilarious about the series). Though, with "Record of Ragnarok", if I was to take the entire series and use some editing software to cut out the endless and sometimes pointless mid battle flashbacks, likely I could imagine literally condensing the entire 27 episode ONA into at most 3 to 4 episodes. lol
ColourWheelAug 15, 6:22 PM
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@ShinyLotus

"Stating that something has substance because it has some sort of objectively existing content that reaches at least some real persons [like you] is a nothing-burger.)"

>And stating it doesnt exist because it doesnt particularly resonate with you or its "edgy" makes any more sense? What.

""Have more friends and allies!" A completely meaningless point. I specifically gave examples of animes with themes that don't even cross that threshold. But of course he chose to ignore that. Saying its "edgy" and "shallow" with no specific explanation is not an argument, hardly even a response.


" "Having a serious theme doesn't mean the show is making something particularly meaningful with it.""
>
Okay so what is your definition of meaningful? How can something be meaningful by your standards?
Just looking it up, here it is: Definition of meaningful: "having a serious, important, or useful quality or purpose." "communicating something that is not directly expressed."
My examples fit these.
@Kenzolo-folk
[Sorry for potential bad grammar ... was to lazy to rewrite it with an online translator]

"And stating it doesnt exist because it doesnt particularly resonate with you or its "edgy" makes any more sense? What."
First of all (so there is no misunterstanding): Not his explanations or opinions are better. The thing he tries to argue about has more potential than the thing you try to argue about (the different thing is btw how you both use the word substance/meaning not like the other one).

And yes: That does make more sense based on this (if your goal is to fire up and resolve discussions). Nobody here is really arguing if something has substance/meaning based on ~it has some sort of objectively existing content that reaches at least some real persons~ but discussions/disputes only arise because people use different interpretations. Why?: Because no person with common sense would try to refute the claim based on how you use of the word in most contexts.
Thats why almost all of my first posts were about interpretations of substance/meaning (in an subjective, objective, objective based on subjective way) or about formulating it as relative/absolute ... to clear up whats the reason why most of you argue without reaching some common ground instead of doing the simple thing of just agreeing with the subtext of your original topic.

""Have more friends and allies!" A completely meaningless point. I specifically gave examples of animes with themes that don't even cross that threshold. But of course he chose to ignore that."
I believe that he believes your examples were of no more value than 'have more friends and allies'. He likely thinks all of these themes content/presentation is something mostly children/teens would find interesting or intriguing and since he weighs the opinions by age/matureness regarding the value of somethings meaning/substance it does not change anything for him.

"Saying its "edgy" and "shallow" with no specific explanation is not an argument, hardly even a response." -
Thats indeed him standing still and rewording his opinion. Though he combined 'edgy' with the taste of teens so at this point it became more obvious what he is about.
There is also little need for him to argue since he is just blocking you off whilst he believes you are not understanding his prior position. He does not want to argue about things that are leading him further away but also isn't very interested in you understanding his prior positions.
So he is just stubbornly answering so it doesn't seem like he fled/gave up on his standpoint.
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@Kenzolo-folk
[Sorry for potential bad grammar ... was to lazy to rewrite it with an online translator]

"And stating it doesnt exist because it doesnt particularly resonate with you or its "edgy" makes any more sense? What."
First of all (so there is no misunterstanding): Not his explanations or opinions are better. The thing he tries to argue about has more potential than the thing you try to argue about (the different thing is btw how you both use the word substance/meaning not like the other one).

And yes: That does make more sense based on this (if your goal is to fire up and resolve discussions). Nobody here is really arguing if something has substance/meaning based on ~it has some sort of objectively existing content that reaches at least some real persons~ but discussions/disputes only arise because people use different interpretations. Why?: Because no person with common sense would try to refute the claim based on how you use of the word in most contexts.
Thats why almost all of my first posts were about interpretations of substance/meaning (in an subjective, objective, objective based on subjective way) or about formulating it as relative/absolute ... to clear up whats the reason why most of you argue without reaching some common ground instead of doing the simple thing of just agreeing with the subtext of your original topic.

""Have more friends and allies!" A completely meaningless point. I specifically gave examples of animes with themes that don't even cross that threshold. But of course he chose to ignore that."
I believe that he believes your examples were of no more value than 'have more friends and allies'. He likely thinks all of these themes content/presentation is something mostly children/teens would find interesting or intriguing and since he weighs the opinions by age/matureness regarding the value of somethings meaning/substance it does not change anything for him.

"Saying its "edgy" and "shallow" with no specific explanation is not an argument, hardly even a response." -
Thats indeed him standing still and rewording his opinion. Though he combined 'edgy' with the taste of teens so at this point it became more obvious what he is about.
There is also little need for him to argue since he is just blocking you off whilst he believes you are not understanding his prior position. He does not want to argue about things that are leading him further away but also isn't very interested in you understanding his prior positions.
So he is just stubbornly answering so it doesn't seem like he fled/gave up on his standpoint.
@ShinyLotus

"I believe that he believes your examples were of no more value than 'have more friends and allies'. He likely thinks all of these themes content/presentation is something mostly children/teens would find interesting or intriguing and since he weighs the opinions by age/matureness regarding the value of somethings meaning/substance it does not change anything for him."

Like all of his points, thats completely subjective. This does not prove that the series I listed have no meaning. And adults are notorious shounen jump fans. Believe it or not but even themes as basic as "never give up" "dont abandon your friends" and "enjoy the simple things in life" still resonate a lot with adults, if not, more.
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@ShinyLotus

ShinyLotus said:
How do you come to that conclusion?


This line
alshu said:
99% of the time the roots of the conflicts there were coming from A) Bulling and B) Dealing with the sins committed by the previous generations.


Considering he said he watched some of the ones i listed, and only 2 of those listed have the roots he claims 99% have, and one of those is the one he hasn't watched, i can only assume he's judging them before actually giving any attention to the story
@DigiCat
"99% of the time the roots of the conflicts there were coming from A) Bulling and B) Dealing with the sins committed by the previous generations." -
Well, I just read it as an exaggeration meaning many of them are like this or contain themes being similarly worthless [to him]. Thanks - that clears up my question.

"i can only assume he's judging them before actually giving any attention to the story"
Tbh it's a vicious cycle. If there is little substance/meaning reaching you, you get bored. I you get bored you'll give no attention and miss more. If you miss more, you'll see even less substance/meaning with the potential of reaching you.
So even being unaware of the content of a show is a strong indicator it has little substance/meaning. Though it is kind of awkward to present yourself as knowing everything well if you didn't gave attention.
"I don't know everything, I only know what the internet knows." - Definitely not best girl.
"To ask is a moment's shame. Not to, lifelong." - I quoted with a posed look.
Aug 15, 6:54 PM

Offline
Dec 2012
9647
Reply to alshu
Cielord said:
And do you have only your words for it, or an actual definition?

I am kind of bored re-posting this around, but here we go:

It's a fantasy shounen which is specifically focused on battles and has:
- Power levels, a skill tree and those are organized under some sort of combat system (think Nen from Hunter x Hunter).
- The battles are usually individual even when part of a bigger fight and play out as duels - there are some rules and limitations.
Most used tropes:
- "Calling your attacks" - this helps fleshing out the combat system.
- Training arcs - a way of padding the story, yet an opportunity for fleshing out the combat system and characterization.
- Tournament arcs - yet another example of "lazy writing", but also the best opportunity for showcasing the combat system and characterization.
- Changing the focus to another plot thread just before something interesting is about to happen in the current plot thread.
- Flashback just before something interesting is about to happen (usually in the middle of the fight).
- Flashback in a flashback.
- Flashback in a flashback, in a flashback.
- The MC being kind of cringe in order to have room for character development.
- Tons of melodrama putted in those exact points when the story actually needs intense action (aka the cock blocking trope).
- After levelling up it's time for power fantasy and revenge porn.

The closest genre to battle shounen is sport shounen. Practically the same thing, but without the fantasy and the fighting is replaced with sport (so when about martial arts - the sport version of said fighting).


alshu said:
I am kind of bored re-posting this around, but here we go:

It's a fantasy shounen which is specifically focused on battles and has:
- Power levels, a skill tree and those are organized under some sort of combat system (think Nen from Hunter x Hunter).
- The battles are usually individual even when part of a bigger fight and play out as duels - there are some rules and limitations.
Most used tropes:
- "Calling your attacks" - this helps fleshing out the combat system.
- Training arcs - a way of padding the story, yet an opportunity for fleshing out the combat system and characterization.
- Tournament arcs - yet another example of "lazy writing", but also the best opportunity for showcasing the combat system and characterization.
- Changing the focus to another plot thread just before something interesting is about to happen in the current plot thread.
- Flashback just before something interesting is about to happen (usually in the middle of the fight).
- Flashback in a flashback.
- Flashback in a flashback, in a flashback.
- The MC being kind of cringe in order to have room for character development.
- Tons of melodrama putted in those exact points when the story actually needs intense action (aka the cock blocking trope).
- After levelling up it's time for power fantasy and revenge porn.

The closest genre to battle shounen is sport shounen. Practically the same thing, but without the fantasy and the fighting is replaced with sport (so when about martial arts - the sport version of said fighting)


I support this definition, it works for me. Most battle shounen do indeed have most if not all of these.
KruszerAug 15, 6:58 PM
"The name's Gambit. Remember it."
-Gambit "X-Men '97"

Aug 15, 7:19 PM

Offline
Nov 2018
156
Reply to Kenzolo-folk
@ShinyLotus

"I believe that he believes your examples were of no more value than 'have more friends and allies'. He likely thinks all of these themes content/presentation is something mostly children/teens would find interesting or intriguing and since he weighs the opinions by age/matureness regarding the value of somethings meaning/substance it does not change anything for him."

Like all of his points, thats completely subjective. This does not prove that the series I listed have no meaning. And adults are notorious shounen jump fans. Believe it or not but even themes as basic as "never give up" "dont abandon your friends" and "enjoy the simple things in life" still resonate a lot with adults, if not, more.
@Kenzolo-folk
"This does not prove that the series I listed have no meaning."
As long as neither one of you engages in adopting the same interpretation of 'meaning' temporarily while talking about the other's statement, you're both just going round in circles.

"Like all of his points, thats completely subjective."
To be concrete: It is a subjective assesment of an objective value of subjective opinions (at least I believe he just imposes his impression instead of having measured it). Though he sometimes is also only talking about his opinion only - but not every time.

"And adults are notorious shounen jump fans. Believe it or not but even themes as basic as "never give up" "dont abandon your friends" and "enjoy the simple things in life" still resonate a lot with adults, if not, more."
I will not fall into the trap of confidently misestimating how the relations are in different demographics ... but I would believe that the ones making shounen magazines likely know who's their target group and try to reach them. If they would not reach more teens than adults I do not see how the terms shounen/seinen came along and stayed this popular.
A statistic how age relates to rating of shounen vs. other things sounds kind of interesting though (but it seems the age median has gone from 16 to 19-24 (likely lower end) based on the statistics about shounen jump and weekly shounen jump).
I personally think the greatest similarity between shounen fans isn't the age but their high emotional reactivity, firm moral principles and low willingness to enter the first-level logic basis of higher logic (things more commonly found in younger people) ... but that's just my underlying feeling/impression of those liking shounen compared to others.
"I don't know everything, I only know what the internet knows." - Definitely not best girl.
"To ask is a moment's shame. Not to, lifelong." - I quoted with a posed look.
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