New
Aug 9, 9:50 AM
#1
Nabokov is the guy who wrote "Lolita", an insanely famous novel which, if I'm not mistaken, is the progenitor of Japanese anime lolis. Here is what he had to say about translation in general: Three grades of evil can be discerned in the queer world of verbal transmigration. The first, and lesser one, comprises obvious errors due to ignorance or misguided knowledge. This is mere human frailty and thus excusable. The next step to Hell is taken by the translator who intentionally skips words or passages that he does not bother to understand or that might seem obscure or obscene to vaguely imagined readers; he accepts the blank look that his dictionary gives him without any qualms; or subjects scholarship to primness: he is as ready to know less than the author as he is to think he knows better. The third, and worst, degree of turpitude is reached when a masterpiece is planished and patted into such a shape, vilely beautified in such a fashion as to conform to the notions and prejudices of a given public. This is a crime, to be punished by the stocks as plagiarists were in the shoebuckle days. It seems like JP to EN localizers do all of these and especially abuse the second and the third. Here's another interesting quote of his that can be applied to Japanese anime, video-games and other pieces of art which are being changed: The person who desires to turn a literary masterpiece into another language has only one duty to perform, and this is to reproduce with absolute exactitude the whole text, and nothing but the text. The term ‘literal translation’ is tautological since anything but that is not truly a translation but an imitation, an adaptation or a parody. Do you agree with these statements or not? Personally, these words align very well with what I've been feeling for many years. |
Aug 9, 10:00 AM
#2
I share his sentiment, but the way he expressed it is kind of dramatic. I don't think the quality of translation can completely ruin a piece of work, not unless the context is completely lost in translation, which happens very rarely. |
Aug 9, 10:04 AM
#3
Yea, I also agree with this statements. In today industry, localizers tend to be the 3rd 'evil' changing, or rather twisting text to align with their own world viewpoint. Considering in many cases, it's to conform to their viewpoint, rather then society viewpoint (regardless if their views agree with the former), one could say he is wrong. Though I still believe what he say capture the whole translation industry 'evil'. |
CielordAug 9, 10:08 AM
spiritual successor of lord rothchild. |
Aug 9, 10:07 AM
#4
Reply to Cielord
Yea, I also agree with this statements.
In today industry, localizers tend to be the 3rd 'evil' changing, or rather twisting text to align with their own world viewpoint. Considering in many cases, it's to conform to their viewpoint, rather then society viewpoint (regardless if their views agree with the former), one could say he is wrong. Though I still believe what he say capture the whole translation industry 'evil'.
In today industry, localizers tend to be the 3rd 'evil' changing, or rather twisting text to align with their own world viewpoint. Considering in many cases, it's to conform to their viewpoint, rather then society viewpoint (regardless if their views agree with the former), one could say he is wrong. Though I still believe what he say capture the whole translation industry 'evil'.
@Cielord Interestingly, unlike "professionals" machine translation only commits the first evil of the ones he mentioned - errors due to its imperfections. I hope one day translation won't require human input at all. |
Aug 9, 10:23 AM
#5
Reply to Shizuna
@Cielord Interestingly, unlike "professionals" machine translation only commits the first evil of the ones he mentioned - errors due to its imperfections. I hope one day translation won't require human input at all.
@Shizuna When it comes to machines completely replacing humans in the translation industry, I'm quite divided. I do believe that a machine doing the 1st 'evil' is preferable to a human doing the 3rd one. Though I believe the most preferable option is for human translators to not commit any of those evils. |
spiritual successor of lord rothchild. |
Aug 9, 10:28 AM
#6
Of course some adaptation is necessary (without it the old fan favorite bible passage would turn into "He so loved the world the God that the Son the only begotten gave so that whoever the believer in Him no perish but have life eternal") but it's true that some translators really love to insert their ideas into the text. Now I don't think it's generally as bad as Nabokov or a lot of weebs claim it is but it's definitely annoying and sometimes irresponsible. |
MEA·MENTVLA·INGENS·EST |
Aug 9, 10:36 AM
#7
A literal translation means turning "san" into "Mr" or "Ms," but audiences never fail to complain when that is done. |
その目だれの目? |
Aug 9, 10:36 AM
#8
Reply to Cielord
@Shizuna When it comes to machines completely replacing humans in the translation industry, I'm quite divided.
I do believe that a machine doing the 1st 'evil' is preferable to a human doing the 3rd one. Though I believe the most preferable option is for human translators to not commit any of those evils.
I do believe that a machine doing the 1st 'evil' is preferable to a human doing the 3rd one. Though I believe the most preferable option is for human translators to not commit any of those evils.
@Cielord Perhaps. I guess after so many years of vandalism I'm just very pessimistic about human translators. |
Aug 9, 10:45 AM
#9
Seems reasonable, but there was something important left out: Sometimes it's very difficult to accurately translate something into another language, because the meaning is tied to the original language, so it couldn't be sufficiently understood in another, and apparently this often seems to be the case with Japanese translations. |
ZarutakuAug 9, 11:58 PM
This dance is the pinnacle of human achievement. |
Aug 9, 10:53 AM
#10
Reply to Shizuna
@Cielord Perhaps. I guess after so many years of vandalism I'm just very pessimistic about human translators.
@Shizuna When I first started watching anime, my English wasn't the best, so I relied on fansubs translating it to my native language (Hebrew). They were mostly susceptible to the 1st 'evil', and that was a problem that was solved through time. So thanks to that experience, I have a better view of human translators. |
spiritual successor of lord rothchild. |
Aug 9, 10:54 AM
#11
Lucifrost said: A literal translation means turning "san" into "Mr" or "Ms," but audiences never fail to complain when that is done. Not myself. I'd rather see honorifics translated as well or omitted entirely, as I don't believe Japanese words (besides loanwords well-understood and assimilated into the English language, like sushi, ninja, tsunami, samurai, haiku, karate, etc.) have any business in a proper English translation. And anyone who isn't deaf or hard of hearing can still discern them easily by ear anyway, as if you watch a large volume of anime and other foreign language content, you get used to automatically and subconsciously intently both listening to and reading everything simultaneously without any real effort. |
WatchTillTandavaAug 9, 10:59 AM
Aug 9, 11:15 AM
#12
The book was the origin of the name, but absolutely not the trope for my understanding I disagree with literal translation being the only form of translation, most of what I watch and read isn't in my native language so I am very familiar with translation from a young age and sometimes not directly translating is not only more faithful but the only way to make sense in a language, as long as a core of the meaning stays and there isn't a big lose in the change then it's fine to change, the problem is, like he says, that translating while ignoring the original meaning or intentionally changing for reasons outside of the story is hurting the story, translators who want to change something need to be honest with themselves and the story and understand the language they are translating from and why a word was used |
Aug 9, 11:31 AM
#13
I think for the people who don't think this is a big deal have not seen what some of the dubs look like. I don't watch dubs so I don't know the extent of the 3rd level of translation hell but one example that was brought to my attention was a scene in dragonmaid where Lucoa is seen wearing a skimpy outfit which in the original kobayashi is kinda like "aren't you embarrased wearing that" and Lucoa says something like "but it looks cute doe" (or something similar, I am sorry I am too lazy to find the episode and check). But thats not the point, the point is what it was changed to, which is Lucoa saying she is wearing her skimpy outfit to "smash the patriarchy"... I hope this speaks for itself but in case you need me to spell out to you why this is bad, these guys are literally writing a fanfic inside the show. There is absolutely 0 respect for the source material, or for the integrity of the translation. This is no longer a translation at this point, but an literal parody that is being passed off as authentic. This doesn't affect me personally cause I know enough Japanese to follow the dialogue and only use the subs for reference but it genuinely makes me sad that people actually get away with something like this. I can only hope it is a vast minority of shows that are effectively "rewritten" in this manner. |
Aug 9, 11:41 AM
#14
Reply to Anjuro
I think for the people who don't think this is a big deal have not seen what some of the dubs look like. I don't watch dubs so I don't know the extent of the 3rd level of translation hell but one example that was brought to my attention was a scene in dragonmaid where Lucoa is seen wearing a skimpy outfit which in the original kobayashi is kinda like "aren't you embarrased wearing that" and Lucoa says something like "but it looks cute doe" (or something similar, I am sorry I am too lazy to find the episode and check). But thats not the point, the point is what it was changed to, which is Lucoa saying she is wearing her skimpy outfit to "smash the patriarchy"...
I hope this speaks for itself but in case you need me to spell out to you why this is bad, these guys are literally writing a fanfic inside the show. There is absolutely 0 respect for the source material, or for the integrity of the translation. This is no longer a translation at this point, but an literal parody that is being passed off as authentic.
This doesn't affect me personally cause I know enough Japanese to follow the dialogue and only use the subs for reference but it genuinely makes me sad that people actually get away with something like this. I can only hope it is a vast minority of shows that are effectively "rewritten" in this manner.
I hope this speaks for itself but in case you need me to spell out to you why this is bad, these guys are literally writing a fanfic inside the show. There is absolutely 0 respect for the source material, or for the integrity of the translation. This is no longer a translation at this point, but an literal parody that is being passed off as authentic.
This doesn't affect me personally cause I know enough Japanese to follow the dialogue and only use the subs for reference but it genuinely makes me sad that people actually get away with something like this. I can only hope it is a vast minority of shows that are effectively "rewritten" in this manner.
Anjuro said: I hope this speaks for itself but in case you need me to spell out to you why this is bad, these guys are literally writing a fanfic inside the show. There is absolutely 0 respect for the source material, or for the integrity of the translation. This is no longer a translation at this point, but an literal parody that is being passed off as authentic. Some people enjoy parodies. I don't think there's anything wrong with catering to such people, so long as faithful translations exist for those who want them. |
その目だれの目? |
Aug 9, 11:47 AM
#15
Reply to Lucifrost
Anjuro said:
I hope this speaks for itself but in case you need me to spell out to you why this is bad, these guys are literally writing a fanfic inside the show. There is absolutely 0 respect for the source material, or for the integrity of the translation. This is no longer a translation at this point, but an literal parody that is being passed off as authentic.
I hope this speaks for itself but in case you need me to spell out to you why this is bad, these guys are literally writing a fanfic inside the show. There is absolutely 0 respect for the source material, or for the integrity of the translation. This is no longer a translation at this point, but an literal parody that is being passed off as authentic.
Some people enjoy parodies. I don't think there's anything wrong with catering to such people, so long as faithful translations exist for those who want them.
@Lucifrost I have nothing against parodies, but I hope you are not saying this to excuse this behaviour. This is an official translation we are talking about here, by one of the biggest western anime providers (I am 99% sure it was a crunchyroll job). Like I said, what you have here is a parody being marketed as the original to people who either don't know any better or do not care. Quite frankly, its repulsive. Imagine how you would feel if you were the author, for people to spit on your work like this and for the audience to think you wrote it that way. |
Aug 9, 11:51 AM
#16
Reply to Anjuro
@Lucifrost I have nothing against parodies, but I hope you are not saying this to excuse this behaviour. This is an official translation we are talking about here, by one of the biggest western anime providers (I am 99% sure it was a crunchyroll job). Like I said, what you have here is a parody being marketed as the original to people who either don't know any better or do not care. Quite frankly, its repulsive. Imagine how you would feel if you were the author, for people to spit on your work like this and for the audience to think you wrote it that way.
@Anjuro I am excusing it for the reason that very same company presumably provided a version with subtitles that are more to your liking. |
その目だれの目? |
Aug 9, 11:56 AM
#17
Aug 9, 12:06 PM
#18
Reply to Lucifrost
@Anjuro
I am excusing it for the reason that very same company presumably provided a version with subtitles that are more to your liking.
I am excusing it for the reason that very same company presumably provided a version with subtitles that are more to your liking.
@Lucifrost Well I believe you are giving charity to the devil then. If it was explicitly marketed as a parody I would not bat an eye, but for a person who wants to experience the show by listening to the dialogue this is the product they got, for them this is what the story is. This argument of "you can get the accurate story elsewhere therefore its ok" makes no sense (Not to mention, why would the translator change their translation in the sub? That's like admitting the dub is misrepresenting the story but the sub needs to be more accurate for some reason). If I save a cat in the morning that doesn't give me the right to kick an old lady off a balcony in the afternoon, If the manga is faithfully translated does that give the anime the right to replace the dialogue with scat? (the music genre where lyrics are gibberish). The role of a translator is to translate, not to write fanfiction. |
Aug 9, 12:46 PM
#19
"Literal translation" does not really follow from "translation without intentional changes to fit public expectations". Or maybe the author does not mean the word "literal" in the literal sense, heh. I've only read Nabokov in 1 language, and so I cannot say how literal his own translations are. But I highly suspect that not literal at all, and instead he wrote each language version in as native of a language as possible. Literal translation between any two even remotely dissimilar languages will always be obtuse and won't make for a good read. Be real, how do you want お疲れ様です translated? Literally, "you are so tired", or with a native expression fitting the circumstances, "hello", "goodbye", "good work today" etc? Now, mistranslations and unasked creative rewrites of the text do happen of course, and it's not great.. But to go as far as say literal is the only way is I think intellectually dishonest. |
Aug 9, 1:51 PM
#20
Shizuna said: if I'm not mistaken, is the progenitor of Japanese anime lolis. Well, you are mistaken. The name was pretty much the only thing taken, but one should interpret it like you interpret a proto-germanic word that birthed a modern one: A simulacra, a victim of "Theseu's Ship". Lolita is an especially pesky term, because from all my researches, it seemed to have multiple meanings at some points in time and changed meaning a couple times. Believe me of not, during the 70-80's it was even a synonym for "hentai", because the Japanese don't have a word for "hentai". >InB4 "Wouldn't the word be... hentai?" Surprisingly not, they don't use the term like we do (Referring to 18+ anime and manga depicting and focusing on sex and pornographic themes), the closest they have is "Ero-hon, Ero-manga and Ero-Anime", but those are so broad that they also refer to "Ecchi". This whole "chaos" causes things like characters that would be considered Lolis back in the day not being considered so nowadays (The latest example was the girl from "Vampire Hunter D (1985)", she would 100% be considered a loli back then, but not today). Shizuna said: Do you agree with these statements or not? I would agree completely with the first part (Due to the choice on colors, I would assume this made you write the thread, since it fits to a T). The second, however, it's asking a bit too much, since certain things are untranslatable and/or rely on features a certain language has that other doesn't. Yesterday I saw people arguing whether or not Hegel purposefully used the ambiguity of the word "aufheben" purposefully or not. As another example, there's a famous portuguese poet named Fernando Pessoa, and one of his most famous poems is the following: "Navegar é Preciso; Viver não é Preciso." Which, translated literally, would mean "To sail is needed; To live is not needed", however, it misses core parts of it, like "Preciso" meaning "needed", but also meaning "Precise", so not only it is a poem about the sacrifices made in the age of discovery, but also a wordplay on how there are maps and compasses for sailing, but there aren't any for living. |
Aug 9, 2:01 PM
#21
there is no such thing as perfect translation anyway just less wrong translations |
Aug 9, 2:55 PM
#22
I totally agree with him and I have experienced all of the translation problems he referred to. Bad translations have been a frequent problem for me as a person living in a country that is not a member of an international copyright convention. As translated books are not licensed, you cannot rely on the work of any translator as there may be mistakes in their translation. There are only a handful of publishers and translators who truly produce excellent and acceptable translations. While it may be difficult for a translation to be literal, it's not impossible. To me, a translator must translate a book from the original language it was written in and have a complete understanding of that language. He/She should also study the author of the book and understand him/her as a person to try to make his/her translation as literal as possible. |
Alcohol is humanity's friend. Can I abandon a friend? |
Aug 9, 3:06 PM
#23
Again, as long as I get what's going on, I have no issue. I have no idea why people bitch so much. The changes are never as significant as they can be in dubs from what I've seen, and most people aren't going to actually learn the language and all the nuances just so they can understand things the exact way they were intended. So if you aren't going to do that much, I say, suck it up or watch something that you don't need translations for. |
Aug 9, 3:53 PM
#24
I'm totally fine with inaccurate translations if they "sound" and convey the message. Especially in anime with its nonsense dialogs. I mostly watch it with voice-over, often not in my language, and choose purely based on the voice performance rather than the translation quality. |
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. |
Aug 9, 4:17 PM
#25
Nabokov was based. He and his wife translated his own works into English themselves for exactly the above reasons. He also hated book clubs and collectives of any kind, to the point that he refused the honorary degrees that were offered to him because he didn't want to belong to a university. He wrote his stories to be accessible only to active and attentive readers, leaving intentional red herrings to misdirect those who were less discerning. If his words sound extreme here, keep in mind that he and his family were forced to flee both the soviets and nazis at different points in his life. |
Aug 9, 7:29 PM
#26
I don't agree with how rigid Nabokov views these things. Errors due to ignorance or lack of knowledge are bad, but sometimes they can be easy to make especially in a language as tricky as Japanese. Japanese and English are very different with Japanese being more implicit in what it tries to say compared to English which generally requires direct and rigid structure. It's easy to sometimes make an incorrect judgement call when trying to figure these things out, especially when on tight deadlines like some professionals are under. In some cases, though it is completely unfair to hold errors against the translators, especially when information on how something should have been translated doesn't come out for years until after it was originally translated. A great example of this would be the island of "Laugh Tale" in One Piece being originally translated as "Raftel" as the information of the island being named after laughter was not shown off in the series until much more recently while the island was first mentioned in very early chapters of the series. Katakana can sometimes make it really difficult to figure out what the intent was when it comes to foreign words as it is a game of telephone essentially, so it can be easy and understandable for things to get lost sometimes. These errors should really be analyzed case by case as the conditions that caused them can greatly add context as to how it happened and sometimes it's just completely understandable and shouldn't really be held against the translator whatsoever. Skipping words or passages is sometimes actually necessary during translating works of fiction for technical reasons. As someone who has learned about the process of scanlations and subtitling video, there is a lot more limitations than the average person would think. When adding a subtitle track to a show or movie, there are practices that generally need to be followed for the most professional and pleasant reading experience for the viewer. Subtitles generally should have no more than 2 lines of 42 characters of less worth of text on the screen at a given time and you need to make sure that the text is on screen for enough time to be read. Subtitling software such as Aegisub will actually have a color code to generally tell you if there are too many characters on screen in too short amount of time as it will change the color on the editor for that line from green to yellow to red the closer it gets to having a character per second rate that is too high for the average person to parse. The reason I say all this is because this sometimes leads to instances where you may have to make tough calls when translating lines of dialogue that when more directly translated goes above the character per line and second limits. This means that sometimes you may have to truncate information or cut things in order for them to both physically fit on the screen and within the time available. Sometimes this can be as easy as slightly changing your word choice, but sometimes information will need to be lost in order to fit. Translating manga also has issues like this pop up because you have to take into account the size of word balloons and text boxes which are at a fixed size. This can be especially tricky due to how with Japanese text it is way easier to write more with less characters, and how you can also write vertically in Japanese which is not an option in English. Not only do you have to take into account how much text you have to cram into these boxes, but you also have to make sure the text isn't too cramped in the text box and there is enough white space between the edges of the body of text itself as is basic comic lettering practice. Truncation just is something that is sometimes unfortunately necessary when translating dialogue in visual mediums that isn't really something you have to worry about in purely text-based ones. Translating video games used to have memory restrictions to take into account as file size limits were very strict for 8-bit and 16-bit games which meant many games HAD to have their dialogue heavily simplified or character and item names completely changed just to squeeze them onto these tiny cartridges. This isn't really that much of a problem anymore, but it is something to note when it comes to older games with either official or fan made localizations. In cases like these where technical reasons may require cuts is it really fair to hold the translator accountable? Nabokov's 3rd point about changing media to "conform to the notions and prejudices of a given public" I feel has its heart in the right place but misses the mark on a few levels. Nabokov is right in the sense that elements core to the story that may be a bit shocking to a new audience probably shouldn't be removed. As a member of the queer community, I myself have seen older dubs of anime completely erase queer content in order to be more palatable to Conservative parents who would have freaked out at two girls or two guys holding hands in a cartoon and that makes me very upset. Erasing groups of people or certain controversial topics in works of fiction that cover them generally ends up leading to an inferior product that loses some of that artistic integrity. However, I feel that Nabokov words things a bit hyperbolically and implies that any mild change to a work of fiction when translating to a new language is essentially equivalent to censorship. When translating a work of fiction, you shouldn't just be translating the words, you should be trying to translate the ideas the author is trying to put out. If you go exactly word for word some ideas could actually be lost due to linguistic and cultural differences. A great example would be how jokes oftentimes need to be rewritten in translated works in order to makes sense as the original wordplay generally doesn't translate over to other languages for most situations. If you don't try and make the work make sense to the new audience when translating a work of fiction to another language, the authorial intent could easily become lost. Nabokov seems to double down on my deduction of seeing any mild change as amount to censorship by saying that "The person who desires to turn a literary masterpiece into another language has only one duty to perform, and this is to reproduce with absolute exactitude the whole text, and nothing but the text.... anything but that is not truly a translation but an imitation, an adaptation or a parody." Nabokov seems to miss a few things with this statement. For starters a translation is always an adaptation of the original work as it is taking the ideas and content from one culture and importing it into another even if the translator decides to go as sterile and "direct" as possible in the means of translating a work of fiction. Translation is not an exact science that can be done exactly one to one, when translating a work of fiction, you try and get in the author's head and have to make decisions on things like word choice, speech patterns, dialect, etc. just like the original author had to and there's a lot of subjectivity that isn't obvious to the average person. It is astronomically unlikely that if you asked two different translators to translate the same work of fiction that you would get the exact same results from both of them. The text will be similar and have essentially the same meaning, but the word choice, translation style, and the decisions made when it comes to trickier sections will be noticeable. The way I see it, translation is less like a science, and more akin to a puzzle in The Legend of Zelda Breath of the Wild. Just like Zelda, you are provided a task, but you have various different ways of getting to the end goal. If in this case the end goal is an English version of a Japanese work of fiction, there are multiple different approaches to getting there. Some may go for a more direct approach, only thinking of the words in front of them and their direct meanings, and while this may be effective in some cases, it is not the only way and, in some cases, may not be preferable. Meanwhile, some may go for more out of the box and creative approaches to get to the same solution. They may not have done it in the more direct method, but they put in a bit of creativity with the tools given to them to try and elevate their translation to a level that may get the intent of the work better than a more direct approach while still reaching that finished result of a translated product. Anime fans tend to be way too rigid in the first line of thinking being the only way when in reality we should allow for that out of the box thinking as it can and has led to some of the best translations out there |
This post is brought to you by your local transfem gamer goblin. Will not tolerate bigotry and will fight against "anti-woke" sentiment to make the anime community a safer place. |
Aug 9, 9:32 PM
#27
Reply to Anjuro
@Lucifrost Well I believe you are giving charity to the devil then. If it was explicitly marketed as a parody I would not bat an eye, but for a person who wants to experience the show by listening to the dialogue this is the product they got, for them this is what the story is.
This argument of "you can get the accurate story elsewhere therefore its ok" makes no sense (Not to mention, why would the translator change their translation in the sub? That's like admitting the dub is misrepresenting the story but the sub needs to be more accurate for some reason). If I save a cat in the morning that doesn't give me the right to kick an old lady off a balcony in the afternoon, If the manga is faithfully translated does that give the anime the right to replace the dialogue with scat? (the music genre where lyrics are gibberish). The role of a translator is to translate, not to write fanfiction.
This argument of "you can get the accurate story elsewhere therefore its ok" makes no sense (Not to mention, why would the translator change their translation in the sub? That's like admitting the dub is misrepresenting the story but the sub needs to be more accurate for some reason). If I save a cat in the morning that doesn't give me the right to kick an old lady off a balcony in the afternoon, If the manga is faithfully translated does that give the anime the right to replace the dialogue with scat? (the music genre where lyrics are gibberish). The role of a translator is to translate, not to write fanfiction.
Anjuro said: why would the translator change their translation in the sub? That's like admitting the dub is misrepresenting the story but the sub needs to be more accurate for some reason I agree with your take on this, but it nonetheless happens regularly. |
その目だれの目? |
Aug 9, 9:50 PM
#28
Overly dramatic but I do agree to the sentiment. Errors in ignorance would be a hard one to avoid entirely though since you would need someone bilingual who was raised in both Japan and the West and even then they might not know about certain topics, but when they do not know they need to seek out assistance. So the real flaw is not admitting to not knowing and not getting help. |
traedAug 9, 9:54 PM
Aug 10, 6:46 PM
#29
The problem with literal word for word translations, is that there are a lot of words that don't have a 1 to 1 equivalent. Someone above mentioned that a "literal" translation would for example be translating "San" to "Mr/Mrs" which isn't accurate. "Mr/Mrs" is a term of respect often given to someone older, or someone in seniority. Whereas "San" is often also used by high school students referring to each other, when was the last time you saw a teenager refer to their own classmate as "Mr/Mrs?"Most often than not, honorifics are translated very situationally and are usually dropped all together in high school settings. Other examples are things like "Tsundere" which has no single English word that matches. In order to translate it literally, you would have to write out a whole sentence, just to translate that one word. Or even a phrase like "Itadakimasu" which I have seen translated every which way except the literal way, because it's more of a cultural concept, then an actual phrase of meaning. I think the best solution is to simply start introducing new words into the English language. "Tsundere" already has a meaning, rather than trying to find an equivalent English word or phrase to replace it, we should simply insert it as is, seeing as it's a new concept, and new things need names. So, just use the name it already has. When I watch or read something in English, and I come across a word I don't know, I don't lambast the author/writer for using new words, instead I just look up what the word means, and add it to my vocabulary. I think this would be fairly easy to do with Japanese words or phrases that don't have simple 1 to 1 translation. We are living in an increasingly smaller world, where cultural bordars are slowly dwindling, and where everyone has access to an internet of information. And anime/Japanese culture is becoming far more well known. We no longer need to go out of our way to try to conform a piece of work to an audience that has no knowledge of a language/culture, and no way of learning about it. Japan has been doing it for a long time, integrating English words and phrases that don't have 1 to 1 comparison, and I think we should do the same. Heading back to honorifics, I was actually playing Mass Effect recently and was quite surprised when I ran across a character who used Japanese honorifics, despite the entire game being in English. And apart from my initial shock and having to do a double take to make sure I heard what I actually heard (especially from such an old game) it didn't sound wrong or out of place. I was messing with adding honorifics to English names and sentences, and it really doesn't sound weird at all. If someone referred to me as Jack-san, or Jack-chan, I found it flows just as naturally in English as it does in Japanese. Now I'm not advocating for introducing honorifics into everyday life, but for anime translations, I say leave the honorifics intact where possible, and not just in the sub, but in the dub version as well. Especially if the show takes place in Japan, where it's part of the culture. (The same with the use of last/first names) Shows outside of Japan, or in fictional setting have a little more leeway. One of my favorite parts about getting into anime, is how much I have learned about the Japanese culture and language, and I think that we are at a point in global society, where we can start leaving some of these cultural aspects alone, and rather than changing them to fit whatever culture is watching them, instead just start introducing those people to Japanese Culture, the culture that created the stories they are consuming. It's the only way for them to truly fully understand the work they are viewing. It would be a slow process, but one that I think would reap the most benefits. |
Jackson1333Aug 10, 6:51 PM
Aug 10, 7:47 PM
#30
2 things first i believe lolita the novel isnt exactly the origin of anime lolis tho it definitely feels like its had some impact on it. also, i personally believe this is all bullshit jargon. It is already known to an approaching consumer when a work is a translation of something. Many times, ideas and words are extremely highly connected to one another. If u were to write a story in Arabic, and then translate into Greek, perhaps a lot of the ideas that are second nature to the first language become meaningless in the second. It is important to realize, that any abstract idea that any author has, cannot really be universal. If the author himself spoke greek with the level of expertise as a native for example, there is a good chance his ideas would be different from the ones he had while originally writing in the first language. I still believe that its on the reader that if they are to be nitpicky about translation, then they learn the original language themselves and if the author is to be nitpicky about translations, then they better learn the second language themselves and translate it, or atleast play an active role with a translator. otherwise a translator is fine where they are when i watch anime/read manga or LN or VN or consume anything foreign media (basically all the time) there are times i notice the difference between what the original work meant vs what the translation was. But its never really annoying, since the nature of work as a translation is already understood. A true translation is extremely rare. A consumer who isnt aware about the nature of the very thing they are consuming and then complaining about it is basically just a Karen. |
BerriesSanAug 10, 7:51 PM
Aug 10, 8:11 PM
#31
Reply to Jackson1333
The problem with literal word for word translations, is that there are a lot of words that don't have a 1 to 1 equivalent. Someone above mentioned that a "literal" translation would for example be translating "San" to "Mr/Mrs" which isn't accurate. "Mr/Mrs" is a term of respect often given to someone older, or someone in seniority. Whereas "San" is often also used by high school students referring to each other, when was the last time you saw a teenager refer to their own classmate as "Mr/Mrs?"Most often than not, honorifics are translated very situationally and are usually dropped all together in high school settings.
Other examples are things like "Tsundere" which has no single English word that matches. In order to translate it literally, you would have to write out a whole sentence, just to translate that one word. Or even a phrase like "Itadakimasu" which I have seen translated every which way except the literal way, because it's more of a cultural concept, then an actual phrase of meaning.
I think the best solution is to simply start introducing new words into the English language. "Tsundere" already has a meaning, rather than trying to find an equivalent English word or phrase to replace it, we should simply insert it as is, seeing as it's a new concept, and new things need names. So, just use the name it already has. When I watch or read something in English, and I come across a word I don't know, I don't lambast the author/writer for using new words, instead I just look up what the word means, and add it to my vocabulary.
I think this would be fairly easy to do with Japanese words or phrases that don't have simple 1 to 1 translation. We are living in an increasingly smaller world, where cultural bordars are slowly dwindling, and where everyone has access to an internet of information. And anime/Japanese culture is becoming far more well known. We no longer need to go out of our way to try to conform a piece of work to an audience that has no knowledge of a language/culture, and no way of learning about it. Japan has been doing it for a long time, integrating English words and phrases that don't have 1 to 1 comparison, and I think we should do the same.
Heading back to honorifics, I was actually playing Mass Effect recently and was quite surprised when I ran across a character who used Japanese honorifics, despite the entire game being in English. And apart from my initial shock and having to do a double take to make sure I heard what I actually heard (especially from such an old game) it didn't sound wrong or out of place. I was messing with adding honorifics to English names and sentences, and it really doesn't sound weird at all. If someone referred to me as Jack-san, or Jack-chan, I found it flows just as naturally in English as it does in Japanese.
Now I'm not advocating for introducing honorifics into everyday life, but for anime translations, I say leave the honorifics intact where possible, and not just in the sub, but in the dub version as well. Especially if the show takes place in Japan, where it's part of the culture. (The same with the use of last/first names) Shows outside of Japan, or in fictional setting have a little more leeway. One of my favorite parts about getting into anime, is how much I have learned about the Japanese culture and language, and I think that we are at a point in global society, where we can start leaving some of these cultural aspects alone, and rather than changing them to fit whatever culture is watching them, instead just start introducing those people to Japanese Culture, the culture that created the stories they are consuming. It's the only way for them to truly fully understand the work they are viewing.
It would be a slow process, but one that I think would reap the most benefits.
Other examples are things like "Tsundere" which has no single English word that matches. In order to translate it literally, you would have to write out a whole sentence, just to translate that one word. Or even a phrase like "Itadakimasu" which I have seen translated every which way except the literal way, because it's more of a cultural concept, then an actual phrase of meaning.
I think the best solution is to simply start introducing new words into the English language. "Tsundere" already has a meaning, rather than trying to find an equivalent English word or phrase to replace it, we should simply insert it as is, seeing as it's a new concept, and new things need names. So, just use the name it already has. When I watch or read something in English, and I come across a word I don't know, I don't lambast the author/writer for using new words, instead I just look up what the word means, and add it to my vocabulary.
I think this would be fairly easy to do with Japanese words or phrases that don't have simple 1 to 1 translation. We are living in an increasingly smaller world, where cultural bordars are slowly dwindling, and where everyone has access to an internet of information. And anime/Japanese culture is becoming far more well known. We no longer need to go out of our way to try to conform a piece of work to an audience that has no knowledge of a language/culture, and no way of learning about it. Japan has been doing it for a long time, integrating English words and phrases that don't have 1 to 1 comparison, and I think we should do the same.
Heading back to honorifics, I was actually playing Mass Effect recently and was quite surprised when I ran across a character who used Japanese honorifics, despite the entire game being in English. And apart from my initial shock and having to do a double take to make sure I heard what I actually heard (especially from such an old game) it didn't sound wrong or out of place. I was messing with adding honorifics to English names and sentences, and it really doesn't sound weird at all. If someone referred to me as Jack-san, or Jack-chan, I found it flows just as naturally in English as it does in Japanese.
Now I'm not advocating for introducing honorifics into everyday life, but for anime translations, I say leave the honorifics intact where possible, and not just in the sub, but in the dub version as well. Especially if the show takes place in Japan, where it's part of the culture. (The same with the use of last/first names) Shows outside of Japan, or in fictional setting have a little more leeway. One of my favorite parts about getting into anime, is how much I have learned about the Japanese culture and language, and I think that we are at a point in global society, where we can start leaving some of these cultural aspects alone, and rather than changing them to fit whatever culture is watching them, instead just start introducing those people to Japanese Culture, the culture that created the stories they are consuming. It's the only way for them to truly fully understand the work they are viewing.
It would be a slow process, but one that I think would reap the most benefits.
Jackson1333 said: Japan has been doing it for a long time, integrating English words and phrases that don't have 1 to 1 comparison, and I think we should do the same. Yeah, but they often invent new meanings for those English words that differ from their original meanings. A translation that uses the same Japanese honorifics in exactly the same places as the Japanese original is obviously not intending to give them new English meanings. Rather than becoming true loan words, they maintain their original Japanese meanings that only weaboos understand. At this point, one must ask if the majority of readers can be assumed to be weaboos, and is there is any particular reason for excluding normies from the story? |
その目だれの目? |
Aug 11, 1:32 PM
#32
Anjuro said: No, there was never anything about "smashing" the patriarchy. Here are the actual lines, from S1 Ep 12 4:50:a scene in dragonmaid where Lucoa is seen wearing a skimpy outfit which in the original kobayashi is kinda like "aren't you embarrased wearing that" and Lucoa says something like "but it looks cute doe" (or something similar, I am sorry I am too lazy to find the episode and check). But thats not the point, the point is what it was changed to, which is Lucoa saying she is wearing her skimpy outfit to "smash the patriarchy"... English_Sub said: Tooru: What's with that outfit? Lucoa: Everyone was always saying something to me, so I tried toning down the exposure. How is it? Tooru: You should change your body next. English_Dub said: Tooru: What're you wearing that for? Lucoa: Oh, those pesky patriarchal societal demands were getting on my nerves, so I changed clothes. Tooru: Give it a week, they'll be begging you to change back. Honestly, Tooru's last line is a greater departure from the JP script, yet it's the "patriarchal" bit from Lucoa that made everyone lose their minds. (Even though a society that criticizes well-endowed women for exposing too much skin and tells them to dress more modestly could reasonably be described as "patriarchal.") I post these quotes not in the expectation of changing people's minds on this, but to present a picture of "this is what the dub actually said." Anjuro said: Nope, the dub was made by Funimation before they were ever associated with CR. And one controversial line is hardly "effectively rewriting the show." Yes, it it a vast minority of shows, and even a vast minority of lines within those shows affected by changes like this. It's just that a half-dozen or so examples over the past decade have been endlessly repeated and exaggerated by the culture warriors and clickbait artists out there, to the point where the anime viewerbase gets this distorted, funhouse-mirror vision of official localizations. People are welcome to their own opinions, but not their own alternative realities.This is an official translation we are talking about here, by one of the biggest western anime providers (I am 99% sure it was a crunchyroll job). *** I can only hope it is a vast minority of shows that are effectively "rewritten" in this manner. |
Aug 11, 1:35 PM
#33
I agree with him 100%.. A good translation should not be afraid of being amoral or offensive. Accuracy should be the 1st priority. I think this is a big reason for why machine translations are becoming so commonplace over flawed human translators. I think a lot of big corporate localizers have 2 big problems. 1. Afraid of association to something offensive which causes censorship like Onimai removing the line hair is a woman's life. 2. Trying to adhere to global standards which neuters character details like age and associations. Why the swastika and mankind get changed. |
rohan121Aug 11, 1:50 PM
Aug 12, 12:49 AM
#34
Reply to Zalis
Anjuro said:
a scene in dragonmaid where Lucoa is seen wearing a skimpy outfit which in the original kobayashi is kinda like "aren't you embarrased wearing that" and Lucoa says something like "but it looks cute doe" (or something similar, I am sorry I am too lazy to find the episode and check). But thats not the point, the point is what it was changed to, which is Lucoa saying she is wearing her skimpy outfit to "smash the patriarchy"...
No, there was never anything about "smashing" the patriarchy. Here are the actual lines, from S1 Ep 12 4:50:a scene in dragonmaid where Lucoa is seen wearing a skimpy outfit which in the original kobayashi is kinda like "aren't you embarrased wearing that" and Lucoa says something like "but it looks cute doe" (or something similar, I am sorry I am too lazy to find the episode and check). But thats not the point, the point is what it was changed to, which is Lucoa saying she is wearing her skimpy outfit to "smash the patriarchy"...
English_Sub said:
Tooru: What's with that outfit?
Lucoa: Everyone was always saying something to me, so I tried toning down the exposure. How is it?
Tooru: You should change your body next.
Tooru: What's with that outfit?
Lucoa: Everyone was always saying something to me, so I tried toning down the exposure. How is it?
Tooru: You should change your body next.
English_Dub said:
Tooru: What're you wearing that for?
Lucoa: Oh, those pesky patriarchal societal demands were getting on my nerves, so I changed clothes.
Tooru: Give it a week, they'll be begging you to change back.
Tooru: What're you wearing that for?
Lucoa: Oh, those pesky patriarchal societal demands were getting on my nerves, so I changed clothes.
Tooru: Give it a week, they'll be begging you to change back.
Honestly, Tooru's last line is a greater departure from the JP script, yet it's the "patriarchal" bit from Lucoa that made everyone lose their minds. (Even though a society that criticizes well-endowed women for exposing too much skin and tells them to dress more modestly could reasonably be described as "patriarchal.") I post these quotes not in the expectation of changing people's minds on this, but to present a picture of "this is what the dub actually said."
Anjuro said:
This is an official translation we are talking about here, by one of the biggest western anime providers (I am 99% sure it was a crunchyroll job).
***
I can only hope it is a vast minority of shows that are effectively "rewritten" in this manner.
Nope, the dub was made by Funimation before they were ever associated with CR. And one controversial line is hardly "effectively rewriting the show." Yes, it it a vast minority of shows, and even a vast minority of lines within those shows affected by changes like this. It's just that a half-dozen or so examples over the past decade have been endlessly repeated and exaggerated by the culture warriors and clickbait artists out there, to the point where the anime viewerbase gets this distorted, funhouse-mirror vision of official localizations. People are welcome to their own opinions, but not their own alternative realities.This is an official translation we are talking about here, by one of the biggest western anime providers (I am 99% sure it was a crunchyroll job).
***
I can only hope it is a vast minority of shows that are effectively "rewritten" in this manner.
@Zalis Right, so in due diligence I went and actually checked and I have confirmed this is correct. Thanks for providing the context so we can at least have an accurate representation. Just as a small addition, I'll add here the original Japanese Lucoa: Itsumo iwareteru kara roshutsudo osaetanda, dou ka na? Touru: Tsugi wa karada wo kaeru to ii desu yo. (which I would translate as: Lucoa: I'm constantly being told to, so I toned down the level of exhibitionism, how does it look? Touru: Next time you would do well to change your body you know. I'm just providing this a reference for what I understand to be the original meaning, but I am not Japanese. All I will say is, for all intents and purposes the sub is close enough in this case). So yeah, I mean obviously the problem in the dub is Lucoa's line, but Touru's response also goes off script as a result. Tbh, I don't care what the line says, I care whether it is conveying the same meaning as the original, and in this case it's really not, hence I don't approve of it. I think its obvious people are going to start complaining when you start injecting buzzwords like "patriarchy" into their entertainment. I don't know if what you're saying about patriarchical societies is even true. Patriarchical literally means something like "father first", so it refers to a situation where the greatest influence for decisionmaking is held by fathers (as a term, to me it feels like it is not even really applicable to a lot of modern societies). But there are many types of partiarchies, like a tribe in africa could be a patriarchy. Point is, its not built in to the concept of patriarchy that women must cover themselves like nuns. I think what you are thinking about is "conservative values". Well ok, if it wasn't crunchyroll I guess they can not be blamed, but all the same, this was one of the biggest dubbers in the west releasing this. The way I was made aware of this situation was a 40 minute video essay which had quite a few examples, so even if it is a minority, it still seems to happen enough that I view it as a problem. Not to mention, I think its a better outcome if people complain when the mistranslations are few and far between, ratherr than waiting for the problem to become so deep rooted that there is no escape. Of course people are going to clickbait, that is inevitable, but as long as they are not faking the evidence I say they're in the clear. I can completely understand the fanbase lashing out though. After all, this is like one of the last bastions of entertainment for many people, entertainment that isn't tarnished by political narratives, activism, "social issues". Of course they are desperate to protect it. In this situation, it is those infringing on the source material that have the explaining to do, not those who are protecting it. |
Yesterday, 8:49 PM
#35
A lot of great points were made in this thread, but I still consider the growing lack of good faith to be a problem. Therefore, I’d say I agree. When it comes to subtitles, the 1st grade was my main concern in the past and mostly when it comes to fan translations, while these days I observe predominantly the mix of 2nd and 3rd grades, and when it comes to official translations no less, which is disheartening. Overall, it often presents itself in the form of what people mention from time to time: some translator gets to work, discovers that the author did something that doesn't align with their personal/political etc. beliefs and takes it upon themselves to "correct" it, effectively censoring the work in the process. The main excuse seems to be "it's impossible to do a literal translation, so we're adapting it the best we can", which is incredibly disingenuous because the corrections themselves are very much translatable. At least I have yet to encounter such a controversy where it was done due to the actual language difference rather than a purposeful manipulation. This is in no way similar to the Ace Attorney game adaptations or anything even remotely close to that, so when people use the term "adaptation" to manipulate and hide their precise and malicious intent - it's deeply unsettling. I don't even know if it can be qualified as a 3rd grade because it can be done simply out of personal vindictiveness and probably isn't even an attempt to conform to some given public, even though it will as a side effect anyway, so maybe it's more like a "hidden" 4th grade or something, the bottomless abyss of purposeful mistranslations lol Quite a problem that is incredibly easy to encounter in any official translations these days, whether it's some anime, a random game, a BL visual novel - everywhere. In fact, one of my relatively recent experiences with a BL VN was exactly a slight mix of 2nd and 3rd grades, so I'll touch a bit upon this more "personal" genre. As I’ve mentioned in some other thread, you don’t translate “bakabakashii” as “that’s gay”, unless you mock the game and want to ruin the atmosphere during the important scene (while some person knowledgeable in Japanese claimed that the entire personality of the main character was twisted by the translation, on top of all the other less impactful problems). Doesn't sound like a language difference problem, now does it? A lack of professionalism is what it is. You think it's just "silly gay porn" or something? Then fuck off and don't take the job! And have some respect for the original writers. On top of that, I've seen blatant mistranslations that ruined the context and cut the sentences literally in half, which I was able to notice even with my extremely limited knowledge of Japanese, and there was no excuse for that - plenty of space on the screen. And that's just BL VNs! Imagine the situation everywhere else, especially when you add the political aspects and all the other "fun" stuff to the mix. Uncontrollable censorship and vanity running rampant. So, every time you go into an officially translated piece of Japanese media, you have to worry about what you're reading, how accurate it is, what was the original context etc. because there is a high chance that the official translations are done by someone with malicious intent and/or total lack of professionalism? You can't trust what you're reading in those subs anymore? What kind of nonsense is that? This is insane, and people responsible for such translations need to be held accountable. And then from time to time someone gets genuinely surprised that people are happy about those AI translations. Well, there aren't many alternatives, are there? I'd say that a low-quality translation due to ignorance or lack of skill is more preferable than the purposeful mistranslation done due to whatever egotistical power trip is going through the translator's mind, even though the lack of human touch is obviously quite unfortunate. At this point, it often seems to be a "pick your poison" situation: choose a human-made translation and pray to whatever deities you believe in that said person won't go on a delusional power trip while translating in an attempt to satisfy their entitled ego or pick an AI-made translation and pray that it'll be "creative" enough to deliver something that isn't too bland. All in all, there is a lot of malicious intent and lack of professionalism coming from so-called “official” translators these days, which is concerning. Well, at least when it comes to English ones, but I've seen it occasionally happen in other languages I'm familiar with as well. One of the solutions I'd propose, aside from blacklisting all the people with known and proved scummy behavior when it comes to translation (but then again, who is going to blacklist them when the companies that hire them often have the same vile mentality lol), is to make a simple poll and an open-ended thread on a dedicated website or some social media: ask the audience what they think. Let them comment, let the people who also have the knowledge of Japanese propose their own corrections, review the most sensible and popular propositions and implement them in a patch. Easy! Especially for media pieces that have no dubs, and you only need to correct the subtitles to implement any changes. Is it really such an outrageous and impossible idea to gather genuine feedback this way? Am I missing something? Just share your own experience that you had as an official translator and what struggles you had with a particular media piece, and then ask people what they think, whether they were satisfied or not and what changes they'd propose. Sounds sensible to me and that's what I'd do if I was a translator, at the very least. If anything, not having this kind of approach seems already like a lack of professionalism at best, and a malicious intent, i.e. no desire to have any negative feedback and fix mistakes, at worst. Jackson1333 said: Heading back to honorifics, I was actually playing Mass Effect recently and was quite surprised when I ran across a character who used Japanese honorifics, despite the entire game being in English. And apart from my initial shock and having to do a double take to make sure I heard what I actually heard (especially from such an old game) it didn't sound wrong or out of place. I was messing with adding honorifics to English names and sentences, and it really doesn't sound weird at all. If someone referred to me as Jack-san, or Jack-chan, I found it flows just as naturally in English as it does in Japanese. Oh yeah, I remember Benezia-sama and all that stuff :p I don't know how to feel about that...sounded somewhat silly to me, but since it wasn't a translation and considering the context of languages being auto-translated in that universe - I think it's an entirely different situation on its own. While I definitely prefer to just leave honorifics in subs, if for no other reason than it simply being easier to hear and read the same thing, I'm not sure about the dubs. But I'm talking about the dubs that are an actual translation from Japanese that I never watch anyway - not the Mass Effect situation. I guess if there is an exotic situation where honorifics are used despite there being no Japanese spoken - it's more than fine to use them in dubs as well. That said, maybe I wouldn't mind honorifics being used on me as well, Jack-san :p not entirely sure on this one, though. |
Yesterday, 10:05 PM
#36
@-YaoiBoy- You reminded me of the Corpse Party Blood Drive translation. It's narrated in 1st person even though the Japanese is 3rd person. The translator explained that he disliked the game and wanted it to be more like the 1st Corpse Party (a common complaint, at least among western fans). The result is that characters now narrate events they can't possibly be aware of. I think translations can be improved by providing more exposure to translators. If we know who translated a given work, we can choose to support good translators over bad ones. |
その目だれの目? |
4 hours ago
#37
Reply to Lucifrost
@-YaoiBoy-
You reminded me of the Corpse Party Blood Drive translation. It's narrated in 1st person even though the Japanese is 3rd person. The translator explained that he disliked the game and wanted it to be more like the 1st Corpse Party (a common complaint, at least among western fans). The result is that characters now narrate events they can't possibly be aware of.
I think translations can be improved by providing more exposure to translators. If we know who translated a given work, we can choose to support good translators over bad ones.
You reminded me of the Corpse Party Blood Drive translation. It's narrated in 1st person even though the Japanese is 3rd person. The translator explained that he disliked the game and wanted it to be more like the 1st Corpse Party (a common complaint, at least among western fans). The result is that characters now narrate events they can't possibly be aware of.
I think translations can be improved by providing more exposure to translators. If we know who translated a given work, we can choose to support good translators over bad ones.
@Lucifrost That's pretty bizarre :) I guess all those characters suddenly gained a supernatural ability lol was it a fan translation or the official one? I remember encountering a situation like that with a fan translation, where the translator was basically like "I don't like this guy, so I'm going to make him sound more of a jerk". A strange beef to have, but well, I guess you can't really put the fan translators' back against the wall, since they're not obligated to deliver anything in the first place. I just wish they'd put their personal feelings aside in situations like this. That's true. I definitely pay more attention to who is translating what and what their previous works were like, at least more than I used to, and having more exposure would definitely inform a larger number of people that don't want to dig for information. |
4 hours ago
#38
@-YaoiBoy- Corpse Party was translated by xseed. |
その目だれの目? |
3 hours ago
#39
@Lucifrost Thanks :) wow, that's a big one! And it was still allowed? Interesting. Seems like a pretty significant change, especially considering how it impacts the whole narrative. If it was a common complaint, I'd say that it should have just remained the way it was originally, so that people could just dislike it for what it is. I really see no reason to introduce such changes or trying to "fix" it, aside from the translator's "I want to!", because it would just garner more credit and praise from the fans of the 1st game - undeservedly so. I don't know if it actually did get a better reception or not, but just an assumption that it might've happened. |
3 hours ago
#40
All translations should be like the dub of Ghost Stories |
2 hours ago
#41
Reply to -YaoiBoy-
@Lucifrost
Thanks :) wow, that's a big one! And it was still allowed? Interesting. Seems like a pretty significant change, especially considering how it impacts the whole narrative. If it was a common complaint, I'd say that it should have just remained the way it was originally, so that people could just dislike it for what it is. I really see no reason to introduce such changes or trying to "fix" it, aside from the translator's "I want to!", because it would just garner more credit and praise from the fans of the 1st game - undeservedly so. I don't know if it actually did get a better reception or not, but just an assumption that it might've happened.
Thanks :) wow, that's a big one! And it was still allowed? Interesting. Seems like a pretty significant change, especially considering how it impacts the whole narrative. If it was a common complaint, I'd say that it should have just remained the way it was originally, so that people could just dislike it for what it is. I really see no reason to introduce such changes or trying to "fix" it, aside from the translator's "I want to!", because it would just garner more credit and praise from the fans of the 1st game - undeservedly so. I don't know if it actually did get a better reception or not, but just an assumption that it might've happened.
-YaoiBoy- said: I don't know if it actually did get a better reception or not It didn't. The story got all kinds of other criticism. |
その目だれの目? |
1 hour ago
#42
I would argue the second and third level are equally criminal as its willfully wrong, however I guess it doesn't matter when the corporation paying them to do it doesn't even care and the Japanese who wrote it are not bothering to pursue legal action against them for this. I will say that I think there is a small point where I disagree, in the sense that I agree with being as close as possible with the text, but not 100% the text especially with grammar because it is impossible for it to be comprehensible any more, and that can't really count as a translation in my opinion if nobody can understand even with context clues surrounding it. I think there are many cases where people are too liberal with this sentiment, going as far as to specify things in English that were not specified in Japanese for example, under the guise that an English person surely wouldn't have been so vague is wrong to me. But I also think when the line is something like 私の前で should be translated as "in front of me", not "me in front of." Do you get what I mean? I think when you can do it word for word it absolutely should be done, but when you need things shifted around or you need an extra obvious piece of grammar that isn't there but has to be there for the English sentence to make sense, it should also be done, what I aim for when I translate something is keeping the words the same but using simple grammar fixes. If there is zero 1:1 equivalent then either you should use the Japanese romaji alongside translator notes in my opinion, or in some cases if there is a short definition that can be worked in it to the sentence without disrupting it that could be acceptable perhaps. Basically the main thing I am alright with is switching word order if it really feels necessary to make sense and not create an incorrect impression of what was said. I still like to leave certain things there even if they feel odd but do not give off the wrong impression. Either way the level I am talking about is infinitely better than anything that has released via official services this year, and I think it is at an acceptable level that the story does maintain what the author wanted to convey, whereas current localizations do not. I really do understand where he is coming from, but the degree he is requesting brings it to the point that you would have to learn the entire structure of the other language, which is an impossible ask for 99% of people I would argue. However on the other hand most localizers blatantly lie and overstate the difficulty of keeping most things intact, and I think most are primarily out of laziness, but there are clearly many who do it to push an agenda as well sadly. I also understand your frustrations and why you might not agree with me, but just know that the absolute shitty localization we had that I realized was only getting worse and not better, was the driving point that convinced me to go down the road of learning Japanese to begin with. In an odd turn of events it makes me feel just the tiniest bit grateful to these pathetic people, because it has helped me realize I am capable of learning new things and has helped to heal my brain that was sort of numb and not being used for anything. But still I do hope that eventually it changes for the better for people who want to experience the Japanese culture that is so blatantly in the anime but not represented at all through the subtitles. As for Peoples debate on suffixes, I think they should obviously all be there. There is no true 1:1 as much as that might make people upset. I personally would say people who think -san translates to Mr/Mrs are making a level 1 error, of misguided knowledge, and that it is extremely common because it is clear that people are taught this incorrectly, despite it not applying in the same circumstances and being used so differently. Same with pre-fixes, like o- they belong there as well with translator notes. These are huge cultural things that do not deserve the disrespect of being tossed out the window and doing so is personally in my opinion a level 2 error that is commonly made. If they say o-tomodachi you should specify that and explain what the o- means. The truth is people will pick up on it after watching a few anime if every anime did that and it wouldn't be a problem. です Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk though this means a lot to me. 日本語が一杯いっぱいいいいい大大大大大大好きいいいいいですうううううううううううわ~ (ほんとにごめん) |
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