Do you think series like Ergo Proxy and Angel's Egg can be directed to become more engaging?

x_101 said:
I think they could work on unfolding the mystery in a more gradual and coherent way. With Ergo proxy at least (didn't watch the other one yet), it felt like things were leading to nowhere for most of the time and then, close to the finale, we got bombarded with info in a very lazy way.

There's no need for flashy battles or handholding, but that space between the exposition of clues could be filled with something a bit more interesting and relevant to the story, not just for the sake of ''atmosphere''. It felt like it was dragging, in a 23 eps show.

Just my opinion. I know there are people who love this as it is and I liked it too, but I think it could've been better.

MSK3 said:
At some point, things are just subjective to one person or another. I doubt that changing superficial aspects of either of the mentioned will really make the narrative more engaging to you. Based on the way that you've labeled both Ergo Proxy and Angel's Egg ("painfully slow" . . . "barely explains anything and instead bombard you with inane expositions"), you probably appreciate the fact that both pieces of media try to have a discussion around "intelligent themes," and not the themes themselves. If you did, then you'd find the each of them interesting probably. In the end, it just might not be for you, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Futari_no_Ossan said:


That's exactly what I felt too. I love it after watching the whole thing and put all the puzzle pieces together, however there are things that you definitely need to have an "outside" knowledge base in order to catch on the nuances.

For example, the cogito virus. For someone who doesn't know latin and doesn't know Descartes, they won't understand that it's a reference to "cogito ergo sum" and how the virus makes the infected able to think for themselves and seek out their raison d'etre. I don't think it was ever explained or alluded to in the anime.

Angel's Egg got that same issue in that it's chock full of references to Christianity but for non-Christian how are they supposed to understand those riddles?



This is such an unnecessarily messy paragraph to read lol please paraphrase it better next time

MSK3 said:

You would probably still be able to fully understand the anime without any knowledge of either Descartes or latin at all

Futari_no_Ossan said:
I can appreciate the plot but I wonder what can be done to make it more engaging/entertaining to "watch"

inim said:
Your way of thinking reminds me of this incident ...

Futari_no_Ossan said:
Hahaha I remember seeing that but again, who knows? My way of thinking could lead to another fiasco (Berserk, HxH) or an improvement (Dai no Daibouken). It's all speculation until someone decides to remake these series

MSK3 said:


??
I mean it seems pretty easy to read, but to each their own.

As for the Descartes reference, it's pretty simple. The reason it's not explicitly stated is because it doesn't add anything to the narrative or to the message that Ergo Proxy is trying to convey. It's just an allusion, or maybe even more of an "easter egg" type thing. You would probably still be able to fully understand the anime without any knowledge of either Descartes or latin at all. The "cogito ergo sum" and the virus share a link, but watching Ergo Proxy without any real knowledge of the link itself doesn't take away from the experience most likely.

Ghemotoc said:
... I thought ergo proxy was about exploring various cases where free will clashes with predestination, and that the Cogito virus was the most obvious key to decypher most of the show.

inim said:
The point is a work of art can not be created that way. If remaking art would work, why don't we all now own an improved Mona Lisa version? Because art is about being first, being unique, and being fresh. Else it's as boring as the 25th remake of Disney's "Princess Story". Art isn't more of the same. No self-respecting and talented artist would agree on your deal to remake what already are masterpieces.

Remakes can work if the brilliant part of an audio-visual work is the story. I.e. when the book would work without animation at all. But as you noticed correctly, neither Ergo Proxy nor Angel's Egg is about the story.Take the themes of Ergo Proxy and Angel's Egg. Find new ways to invoke the same emotions, in your own artistic language. Anything else is boring plagiarism.

shrapn3l said:
Similar (allegedly) to the biblical allusions in Evangelion.

Anyway, is cogito ergo sum really that obscure of a reference in any case? I think most people at least have heard the expression "I think, therefor I am," so cogito ergo sum should typically ring a bell... Compared to some other philosophers who are (even more pointlessly) referenced throughout the series, I think Descartes is pretty well known.

Ghost in the Shell, also by Oshii? It's not really remotely as action heavy as the series, but still critically lauded and one of the most beloved films of older Anime fans

Futari_no_Ossan said:
Not sure about that bro, Anno said himself he derives the story heavily from teh Bible itself

https://www.animemaru.com/hideaki-anno-admits-some-of-evangelions-religious-symbolism-may-have-deeper-meaning/

So if you're not a fan of the Bible, you probably won't draw out as much enjoyment as someone who does, same with Angel's Egg which I'm sure I missed tons of references.

Yudina said:
The Cogito virus and the android story is honestly mostly just window dressing for Ergo Proxy's much larger interests; I'm not really convinced that Ergo Proxy is really all that much about free will/predestination and is more specifically invested in identity and spiritual awakening, what is real/illusion and how do we enlighten ourselves to that spiritual knowledge. The virus is essentially a dropped topic that is maybe addressed a handful of times in meaningful fashions, but even if it wasn't, the reference to Descartes with respect to the "Cogito" virus in and of itself has nothing to do with free will, it's much more along the lines of being able to distinguish what is real and what is not; it was a awakening in a sense in Western philosophy that upended the notion of doubt in our material existence and is used in similar fashions in Ergo Proxy, but it's unnecessary to know the reference to get the other cues that are lobbed on top of it.

Ghemotoc said:
The quest for identity... isn't it what free will vs predetrmination is about? Is there a single man on this earth who didn't wonder if he was here for a purpose, or if he had any control over the external world? Isn't it the most fundamental question about human nature?

alshu said:
"Do you think series like Ergo Proxy and Angel's Egg can be directed to become more engaging?"

Wow, comparing Ergo Proxy to Angel's Egg.
We have a fake elitist here!

Futari_no_Ossan said:
But let's face it, anime is art and there's remakes being done all the time, are you saying the author of FMA or HxH are not self-respecting and talented? Since they allow their art to be improved and remade? [...] And I don't agree with the assertion of Angel's Egg and Ergo Proxy not being about story. In fact, they are very story-heavy, there's so much content to be digested and for us to figure out. That's why I want to keep the best part, story, intact and focus on tweaking the other elements to make them even better.

inim said:

Both Angel's Egg and Ergo proxy are atmospheric, symbolic, and driven by character development a lot more than by a linear plot. That type of anime benefits a lot less from higher production values. In fact, given the mix of emotions, visuals, music and so on creates art, i.e. something greater than the sum of the parts. You can not possibly recreate that with more money and production values. You need to be an Oshii who has just lost his faith in the Christian god, kicked his career as a catholic priest out of utter frustration with the church to make Angel's Egg. Even he himself probably couldn't remake it today, because that anger has cooled and a remake would lose it's primary driving emotion: frustration and anger.

We have a proverb in German: "Kunst kommt von können.", roughly translates to "art comes from ability". Which in German works because the words for "ability" and "art" actually share the same etymological root , in English that is lost.

See 1001 lame old age albums by aging musicians, lame Marvel movies, and Disneyfication of good stories. They throw shitloads of money at the attempt, but all they get is mediocrity.

But art can not be reproduced, only be re-envisioned. But that takes another artist, the right time, and a new original idea. Art creates art. But no remakes.

Ghemotoc said:
@Yudina Hmmmm... I'll be honest, I never thought for a second Re-L might be wondering if people around her are real. For some reason I didn't extend Descartes' skepticism to the other characters. They're indeed skeptic of the world around them, and of their own reality/reasons to be there, but I didn't feel they were skeptical of each other's reality. Maybe because they embark together on what's essentialy the same journey.

I'm also surprised when you say Re-L comes to peace with others' reality earlier than Vincent, as it seemed to me that Vincent was actually much more comfortable with others' existences. In that 16th episode, Re-L is the one who seems to get upset at anything that is out of her control/the results of the others' actions.
For me, ep 16 is again relevant to the "goal vs free will" thing. The characters are on a road trip, wich is the very definition of having a goal/set destination. You start at A and want to go to B. Episode 16 simply removes the goal and leaves the characters with nothing to do. The characters become individualities again instead of being a group, and they're confronted to each others' existences and individualities. it's no longer a long, continuous walk towards a common destination, but instead a succession of random little decisions and choices that affect the others in the group.

Ghemotoc said:
Anyway, I like the opposition between free will and determinism, and like to see it everywhere.
I wasn't paying much attention in philosophy classes as it's funnier to discuss with other nerds, but I always saw Descartes's skepticism and Diderot's mechanical determinism (lets pick two frenchies so I'm more comfortable) as opposites. Descartes doubts the world, and the only real thing he can't doubt in this is his own consciousness/thoughts. This, to me, seems to imply that free will is. Because if your thoughts are real (and moreover the only thing you can't doubt), then every choice you make is yours, totally.
Mechanistic philosophies on the other hand, suppose that you're driven by external factors you're unaware of. In that sense, free will is negated. You don't make a choice, you just act like a machine who believes she makes decision. Diderot doubts his own mind and searches reality in the world around him.
It's probably a gross oversimplification (huh no joke Ghem you're summarizing hundreds of pages in three sentences), but would you agree or say I totally misunderstood Descartes? (I read Diderot more, cool guy, gotta love annoying atheists)
So yeah, maaaaybe I just dropped Diderot in a fully cartesian anime. Maybe.

katsucats said:
Angel's Egg and Ergo Proxy are united on one front: They lack focus. Or rather, they're so focused on the atmospherics that they forgot to move the plot forward. Nothing could be more obvious that the pacing is amiss than, I think episode 17 (?) of Ergo Proxy where they had to make a pseudo-game show to fill the audience in on what's going on. On one hand, they could have made the message more direct and have the characters narrate them like many other anime do, but on the other hand, that would make them not Angel's Egg or Ergo Proxy. What they could have done better, in my opinion, is to tie the symbolism better into a cohesive narrative plot. Personally, despite their acclaim, I feel like their respective authors just didn't have the storytelling chops to pull that off. But then again, Angel's Egg is practically an experimental project by someone before he got famous.

Futari_no_Ossan said:
I see. This is a pretty good point that I haven't considered: artistic inspiration. Then again, since I'm more invested in the story and what it's trying to convey I usually don't look into much of the emotions and artistic nuances side of things, except for those that obviously make an effort to catch my eyes like SHAFT works (Ef, Madoka)

inim said:

Both Angel's Egg and Ergo proxy are atmospheric, symbolic, and driven by character development a lot more than by a linear plot. That type of anime benefits a lot less from higher production values. In fact, given the mix of emotions, visuals, music and so on creates art, i.e. something greater than the sum of the parts. You can not possibly recreate that with more money and production values. You need to be an Oshii who has just lost his faith in the Christian god, kicked his career as a catholic priest out of utter frustration with the church to make Angel's Egg. Even he himself probably couldn't remake it today, because that anger has cooled and a remake would lose it's primary driving emotion: frustration and anger.

Yudina said:
I think there's a lot of instances where a writer, a director, or artist creates something rather innovative or interesting in the opening years of their career; it has powerful passionate impulses but is perhaps held back by something, could be anything really, and would be worth exploring further now that they've had a career to look back on.

Makoto Shinkai comes to mind since the tone of his newer works has flipped from the films that he made when he was a lot less known as a director, and he's never really gone back to examine those roots, if anything he's essentially discarded them.

Futari_no_Ossan said:

If you don't have anything meaningful to add to the discussion, then kindly GTFO my thread

Futari_no_Ossan said:
thank you and by thank you I absolutely don't mean that

Yudina said:
I hated the game show episode when I first watched it, but I actually enjoy that episode the more I watch it in the years after. On one level, I think it's at least a fairly neat attempt at some kind of satirical play on the mid-season recap episode. Most people don't really hate on those episodes, no matter what show they're from, they're more just frequently ignored and hand waved away as some kind of filler episode that don't really diminish the quality of a show, so I'm kind of surprised at how much hate this episode in particular gets.

But on the other hand, I actually think there's a lot of insight in that episode if you just look past the plot information (which, yes it's an info dump, granted), and look at the context in which this episode arises. The episode does advance the plot in a way, it's consistent with Ergo Proxy's universe, it features yet another insight into some element of postmodernity/mass media American culture, and as a result there's a lot to consider at the end of it. Ergo Proxy is, after all, a kind of road trip across America, and I think the attempt to unmask a lot of the characteristic tropes that television uses to manipulate and create a kind of atmosphere and audience is actually quite well done.

The overarching plot of Ergo Proxy is kind of just whatever, but that's not necessarily the same as the storytelling, and I disagree that the the writers didn't really have the storytelling capabilities to pull it off. In many senses, Ergo Proxy has some of the most expertly constructed anime episodes of all time. There are certainly things that it lacks, but the quality of its storytelling is not one of them. It has a great story.

katsucats said:
I like Ergo Proxy. That game show episode is not just a recap in my opinion. It does push forward the plot, but in a hamfisted way that was almost necessary because the earlier episodes didn't. It's one of those narrative devices that signal the beginning of the end. The writer was rambling, and the producer signaled, "Look, I know you got something to say, but we gotta wrap this up." Yes, it was satirical and philosophical in a way, but absolutely not the best way, the most cohesive way, in my opinion, to tell a story.

Having expertly constructed arcs is not sufficient, in my view. The arcs need to be weaved together to make it conducive to an overall narrative. Ergo Proxy did have a solid philosophical ending I think. The message is somewhere in there. Its weakness is the middle, the progression toward the main conflict was not well done. I'll give another example of an expertly constructed arc, in my opinion: Around episode 7-11 of Psycho-Pass. They beat the dramatic drum and steadily built up the tension, and then -- nothing. The narrative ran out of steam and changed direction mid-way. Similar, Zetsuen no Tempest had a run in the middle that entertained me greatly, despite its seriously flawed premise. It did not carry it through.

In my opinion, Ergo Proxy similarly struggled, but the difference is it had a palatable ending that was consistent with its messaging throughout. It was that consistency that made the show. It was like it dropped the ball, but picked it back up just in time. A minute later, and the ending would have been a mess, which was probably why they had to resort to the game show in the first place. To me, it did not seem like a deliberate design choice, but a forced hand.

inim said:
Just accept we exist, and should have our share of anime production as well.

I think Fate/Zero and Your Lie in April are crappy anime, just for the record.

Who knows, maybe in 20 years you see things like I do and are glad Angel's Egg & Ergo are what they are.

syncrogazer said:

So, in other words you want something completely different, more in line with how anime is 'supposed' to (in your view) look and feel. Why not just watch something else instead then?

I am sure there are plenty of anime that have your superficial notion of 'muh ntelligent themes' and that take a more obvious and familiar approach. Hell, every anime wants you to think that it's doing exactly that.

Watch some dystopian/cyberpunk action anime or something. Unless I hallucinated it, Ergo Proxy kinda had that going on.

Futari_no_Ossan said:
Not sure why this bothers you so much lol if you don't like my proposition and don't wanna participate in a harmless discussion, you can take the same advice that I gave to @alshu and go join another thread that won't harm your little comfort bubble.

syncrogazer said:

lolwut. Your whole post is basically 'why isn't this what I want it to be?' So I told you to watch something else instead. Like, what do you want me to say, squint harder and maybe it'll be presented differently? I can't tell you why you don't like something.

In the end I don't have the issues you have with the show. Seems like you're the one trying to make your own comfort bubble ITT.