Vinland Saga Episode 24 Discussion

keragamming said:

A lot of us when we talk about seinen series we talk about Berserk, Monster, vagabond, 20th century boy etc., I think these series set the expectation of what a seinen series should be These type of series stay clear for the most part how most of your typical shounen series are written base off the plot, characters and the overall mood, seinen series tends to be more bleak.

keragamming said:
To better sum it up, these seinen series will feel more like western books/movies and that these stay clear from the Japanese culture/troupe you would normally see in shounen manga.

keragamming said:
After reading a decent amount of manga and having those seinen series as reference, I can pin point the difference between a shounen series from a seinen series.

I do agree with him that Vinland saga is in the middle it has some shounen feel to it and seinen feel to it, it is a mixture of both, same for snk, Kingdom, deadman wonderland, akame ga kill etc. Though snk imo for season 4 material feels like a full blown seinen series to me, it got rid of most of those shounen elements in it.

keragamming said:
Now what I disagree with @Yautja's about is that he is talking poorly on vinland saga for having those shounen elements as this is imo a artistic choice, as he still want his series to feel like a anime.

keragamming said:
I don't necessarily think one is more mature/better than the other, it all depends on the context as imo Ajin fit the seinen feel, but vinland saga is far better than it and more mature as well.

keragamming said:
tldr basically certain seinen series doesn't feel like it was made in Japan and these series could easily be adapted into a tv series as it avoids most of the Japanese culture and elements you would see in the manga/light novel medium in Japan. It avoids all those quirks and distinction that would differentiate Japanese work from western works.

keragamming said:
And thus a lot of people will lean more towards these seinen series as to them they are the mature series in the medium that you can watch with anyone even people that doesn't watch anime without feeling embarrassed about it.

Yautja said:
@RealTheAbsurdist
I don't think you have any grounds to take the moral high ground and complain about being called a pain after repeatedly and fragrantly misrepresenting what I've said, even after explicit clarification was given. Also, you're the one trying to argue with me, you're the one who started this and replied to me first, so don't try and pass the buck onto me with that "he's trying to argue with me" bullshit, especially because I literally said "This is no longer about clarification or mutual understanding, it's about winning an argument and therefore pointless.".

You've complained that I've only used tropes to define the aforementioned genres, complained that my definitions aren't good even because they don't cover every possible base even though I've given you examples of abstract down to concrete, you've done exactly what you've complained about and said "I think all these websites are wrong" and refused to give corroborating explanations as to why the overwhelming majority of such places are wrong and you're right, you make equally insane claims as you assert I do by saying "a genre cannot be complex"; where is your 100s of examples & heavy research to support either of those absurd claims as 100% fact?

You've never asked what my complaints about the shounen elements were, or to expand on them, and I did list more of what I thought about VS was shounen. You didn't ask me to be more specific or expand on them after I did the first time. You don't get to complain that I haven't done something you haven't asked for or say I didn't do something I did. Anyways. In a "historic" and "seinen" series and in the absence of genres such as "supernatural", realism is at least implied, if not inherent. People should not be running around like Naruto, making modern Japanese references that gamers would make like "easy mode", they shouldn't be jumping from ship to ship like a literal superman, nor cleaving multiple people in half while dual wielding axes. The protagonist hungering for revenge and being fucked in the head is fine and not my beef / what I think makes him a shounen protag, but having little more personality than a moody teenager, who screams like a banshee and is a special and strong because his dad was a big deal being consumed with an entirely 1 dimensional revenge drive, is a bit more than that and a lot like a lot of revenge shounen characters that I'll list in a minute. If this series actually expanded upon Thorfinn and his feelings after all these years of being raised by his father's murderer, the impact Askeladd having on his life, etc, etc, instead of just solely being focused on the goal of revenge and literally nothing else, like everything done about Askeladd be it his father, the danes, or otherwise, I wouldn't be calling him a shounen protagonist. He's being too dumbed down. From what I've read, this is a problem that's resolved after this episode in the manga, and is clearly about to head in that direction since Thorfinn's lost his goal and his "shit".
Note, I understand how it looks like I'm framing shounen characters negatively, but that's not my intention or what I believe.
Also, as if to prove my point Vinland Saga was originally published in a shonen magazine. So by both our standards now, it fits the label of shounen to a significant degree.

Of any of those series you listed and in regards to any which fit a similar setting or theme, quite literally none have a protagonist anything like Thorfinn. If you want a seinen, about revenge, look to Blade of the Immortal (Rin), Ubel Blatt (Koinzell), Tokyo Ghoul, Drifters, Goblin Slayer. The differences between the protagonists & Thorfinn are stunningly obvious. If you list shounen with revenge elements, like AOT (Eren), Naruto (Sasuke), Owari no Seraph (Yu), FMA, he's A LOT more like the revenge seekers in these series. This is not saying anything about quality or what I think is good, but it's clear which ones he's more like.

There already is endless confusion. Those debates are already had on a smaller scale about other genres, and that's what happens when words morph into new meanings. Those debates can also already be had about if a magazine is the correct space for a given series to be published. As I've repeatedly said, would you not have a problem with Berserk being labeled a Shoujo if it were for some reason published in a shoujo magazine; on what basis do these magazines decide what is published and can they not make mistakes? Your complaints about "feels" applies exactly to you too, because that's what magazines use to decide whether or not a given manga belongs in their magazine and demographic any given manga appeals to. At least I've given examples of things that differentiate shounen, seinen and the like and what makes them genres. What have the magazines you seem so keen on using as arbitrators done? How do you feel about VS being listed as a seinen, but not Akame Ga Kill. How do you feel about Beastars being a shounen, or Shi Ga Futari a seinen? You can bitch about my opinions being unclear, but things already are extremely unclear and arbitrary with magazines just haphazardly throwing such labels around.

Again, you never asked what my beef with those dark elements is or to expand upon what I've said there. I didn't refuse to do something you didn't ask. This is exactly why I called you a PITA. I'm saying those are things erroneously associated with seinen or "mature" series. Rape, gore, w.e does not make something seinen or appeal to older audiences, especially because it can be done gratuitously and childishly. Sort of like how drinking alcohol or smoking doesn't make you mature but they are things associated with adulthood; it's like saying having a Japanese setting automatically makes something appeal to Japanese people. It is not a topic that inherently appeals to older audiences, having gore or rape doesn't make something seinen like a heavy focus on romance makes something a romance. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying that, outside the magazine argument, it's pretty much one of the only justifications to call this seinen at this point, and is used to distance itself from shounen, and that is already a damaged position because of series like Akame Ga Kill which have the same such things. At this point, I still think it's neither.

It's funny how I'm the one being completely scrutinized but the moment I turn things onto you, it's completely ignored. You say you didn't respond because I have anger problems and I slighted you by calling you a PITA, I think it's because you can't handle being on the opposite side of what you're doing. You can't deal with me repeatedly pointing out you putting words in my mouth, or pointing you're claiming I'm not doing things you've asked for (things which you've never asked for), or the burden of proof being pushed onto you a la websites & genres "being unable to be complex", etc, etc.

I've made my point about what I think defines these genres as such, you have not refuted that, you've just said "not enough info". The most you've done is whataboutism and say other series can have X, something that I agree to and does not crack my opinion because you've not addressed it (collection of tropes, themes, settings, atmosphere, characters, etc), only the straw-man of it (tropes being the only things that define shounen). I think it's your turn to actually support the what you've said. How and why are the vast majority of websites wrong in labeling those tags genres, how do you respond to the obvious fact that words can have multiple meanings as illustrated by the "ice & icecream" example (it's confusing is not a rebuttal), how you respond to the fact that even by your own standards those tags fall under the definition of the word "genre" that I listed, where's your proof or support for the claim that no genre can be complex, how do you classify seinen and the like and how would you respond to a situation where Berserk was published in a shoujo manga? Because as far as I can tell, you'd have absolutely no justification to say it's wrong.


👍 assuming the "but" doesn't mean you think I disagree with everything after it. I just don't think those things make something seinen or mature, but do make it harder (not impossible because of things like Akame Ga Killl) to call something shounen. If this anime were Vikings but as an anime, I'd basically have no problem with anything / its labels.