Pathetic Mc EVERYWHERE!

real psychopath that rip someone to shreds without mercy

a pathetic wimp

Lucidbro said:
Yeah, if talking strictly about MC's there really aren't many in the grand scheme of things, that don't fit into that general "pathetic or generic MC" mold, at least in some way. Maybe even +95% of all modern shounen/seinen is like that, I've never liked it, and I still don't.
A lot of it I think has to do with the increasing targeting of the Otaku crowd, who I guess either like the MC to be relatable, or just in general feel uncomfortable about more masculine and assertive characters, because they feel it gives them social pressure to not be a pathetic loser in real life as well.
People have to realize though, that these characters, like Shinji for example have nothing to do with reality. Shinji is not a normal person, he is a loser. And if that's who you are, then unfortunately you're a loser. But don't lump up normal people with you.

hoopla123 said:


lol what? You know the more recent trend for light novels, manga and anime tend to be premises with OP as hell MCs (start off really OP and strong, not weak or wimpy)?

Sword Art Online, Rakudai Kishi no Eiyuutan, Mushoku Tensei (kind of...), Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei, Overlord, Gangsta, Arifureta Shokugyou de Sekai Saikyou, RE:Monster, Taimadou Gakuen 35 Shiken Shoutai and ShieldBro (not OP but not wimpy in the slightest and revengeful).

And many many more.

Honestly the trope itself (OP as hell MC that trashes anything in sight) is getting old itself. Too much of it in recent manga/anime/light novels.

But I agree, I hate Shinji too.

Lucidbro said:

I thought we were talking about Anime and Manga, not Light Novels. I don't really read them. But I do know that both Kirito and the MC in Mushoku Tensei are wimps. With the Mushoku MC being near (if not worse) Shinji level on top of being a pedophile. Both him and Kirito have a lot of power but are either cowards or unassertive and weak willed. That's a lot more important than your powerlevel for an enjoyable protagonist.

hoopla123 said:


Wut? Did u even read all the novels for both? Oh wait nvm... "I don't really read them."

Kirito roflstomps everything in his world like its nothing and doesn't pussy out at all. Not saying he is a good protagonist (not a fan of SAO if you couldn't tell) but he isn't wimpy at all.

As for Rudeus, whether he is a pedophile or not has nothing to do with this discussion talking about wimpy characters. But ya, in a way he could be classified as a pedophile but this discussion is for another thread (as this has been discussed so many times on everywhere)... But ya, Rudeus is kind of a pussy but for a good reason. He doesn't go into fights he knows he will lose and goes for help when he can.

As for all the things I posted above, they all have their own manga minus Arifureta.

And the fact that you said you don't really read them shows that you don't know much when you say Kirito is a wimp or a coward.

Rudy on the other hand, he could be classified as a coward I guess...

hoopla123 said:
Give me an example of when Kirito is a wimp. He fights laughing coffin and multiple members of another pk guild knowing fully well that he could be killed. He goes on to clear a raid boss that could have killed him as well as heathcliff who was the most OP character in existence when given the option to fight him on the spot or run away. Also in the second fairy dance arc, Kirito fights a GM who pretty much owned the entire server to save his girlfriend without backing down.

And you keep talking about the qualities of what makes a good protagonist. You're right, Kirito is not a good protagonist. But the thread we are discussing on is about whether MCs (in this case Kirito) is a wimp or not. Provide some examples where he is a coward, weak willed and a wimp. Any MC at some point can be scared shitless like he was when he fought that raidboss (not the first tower one) but that doesn't make the MC a wimp or a coward if he fights back without backing down.

Lucidbro said:


Just off the top of my head, I remember him being depressed like a wimp earlier on in the season after an experience he had with another guild. And I remember him being scared shitless when fighting that 1 floor boss solo. I would have to rewatch the series to go over all of the occurrences where he's acting like a pushover. But they are relatively frequent.
I guess calling him a flat out wimp is a bit unfair, but he isn't that far from it. Just compare his overall demeanor to that of some other actually strong personalities in anime/manga like the 2 examples I gave earlier. He has a meek personality.

hoopla123 said:


I would say that the scene where he was depressed from the death of his friends in that guild trap incident does not make him a wimp. He is just depressed over the death of his acquaintances. Besides he doesn't even take this trauma to heart (unlike a crap ton of other MCs) and just goes on to do more life risking things without being too indecisive.

And honestly Alucard isn't that much of a deep character either. He is vastly overpowered compared to his enemies and all he does is kill brutally without much thought. He pretty much has zero development through the story as well. Is he a badass and not a wimp? Yes of course. Is he a good example of what a well developed/deep character should be like? At least not in my opinion he isn't.

Lucidbro said:

It's not just how Kirito is depressed over the death of some people he barely knows. It's how he carries himself and react to things on just a general level. He's a flustered little boy. The only thing that separates him from countless other generic bland weak-willed protagonists is that he is skilled at video games. I can agree that calling him a wimp is maybe a bit too harsh but I think he just barely isn't. The difference is that while he gets scared and insecure a lot he manages to overcome it, usually within a lesser time frame than normal wimp characters. And the worst wimp characters never overcome anything.

A character doesn't have to be deep to be successful and a character doesn't need to have an arc to be deep.
In Alucards case, yes there's a lot of elements in him that are just badassery, but there are nuances in him that separate him from just a regular madman that is achieved without going through this silly shounen notion of trial and error and a "growing up" story.
He wants to die, he hates human weakness because he loathes himself and what he did in exchange for his own humanity. He considers monsters like himself worthless but he wants to see human strength overcome him before actually letting himself succumb to death. Basically he wants to have faith in humanity, despite(or because) being one of the most depraved humans in history.
The difference is that the way his depth is conveyed isn't hammering it onto readers heads like in shounen, when you have a character make a decision or act in a certain way, and the entire series condemns him for it.
Hellsing itself isn't terribly deep as far as manga goes but Alucard and the main antagonist are good and well thought out characters. They just aren't in any way normal.

hoopla123 said:


Give me an example of when Kirito acts insecure? As far as I know (until the Alicization Arc, which is where the novel currently is), other than the part where he was depressed from the causing of the death of his friends, he was never insecure and even if he was (which from my memory he almost never did), it never made him back down from a fight or hesitate too long to make a decision.

Besides, what you said about how "Alucard has hope for humanity but is depraved and wants humanity to kill him" has been done multiple times in SHOUNEN manga. One example would be Zeref from Fairy Tail. Hell he creates a whole group of monsters in hope of them killing him, takes over an empire to start a war that would hopefully kill him and even created the OP as fuck main character so that he could kill him too. By the way, this is from a shounen manga so ya... even shounens do this (not just seinen and Hellsing).

Hellsing is just a good manga, but is not a good example of a great character in anyway. There are plenty more "growing up" or developing stories for characters in manga genres for not just shounen, but seinen as well.

For example: Doctor Tenma from Monster goes through trial and error throughout the story that ultimately makes an antagonist himself, but goes on a path of redemption, experiencing multiple things before finally facing his enemy.

Another example (a seinen manga) would be Vagabond too. How Musashi starts from this arrogant samurai to a humble more civilized being as he goes throughout the story.

If I were to describe Hellsing compared to other great seinen manga it would simply be shallow. If you like your manga simpler and shallow, that's fine but Alucard is far from a outstanding example of a good protagonist in seinen manga.

Same with Rudeus from Mushoku Tensei (which is another seinen novel/manga). Pretty much the whole point of the story which you follow Rudy and his crew in across 24 volumes is about his path to redemption and living a better life than he did in his shitty past. You really get to see him develop as a person and by the end of the story, you see him in a totally different light than you did the first time. Not some bullshit I'm OP as fuck and going to take over the world, its just him essentially overcoming himself (except on a much grander scale) throughout multiple hardships and in the end, becoming a person he could never become in his past. You can't compare him with Shinji at all because Shinji never changes his act (well barely) throughout all of NGE, staying as an indecisive pussy all out.

You can still have a badass and likable character without any development but it is definitely not an outstanding or first class tier character for sure when compared to others.

Comic_Sans said:

Such a wimp indeed