Spotlight Anime: Top wo Nerae! MAL Anime Information Page: Top wo Nerae! MAL Score: 8.12 (by 3542 users) Ranked - #255 Popularity - #687 For the next week I would like to have a discussion about the anime that focuses on the key elements that we here on MAL use to critically rate an anime: Animation, Sound, Characters, Story, and Enjoyment. I would like everyone to approach this thread as if you were going to write a review and structure your initial post like this: Animation - insert rating Sound - insert rating Characters - insert rating Story - insert rating Enjoyment - insert rating Animation - discuss any pros and cons of the animation styling used in the series, try to include some specifics. Sound - describe any of the things you liked or didn't care for in regards to the music and sound effects used in the series etc... If you are having trouble writing up a review or coming up with specific pros and cons, please don't worry. Just do the best you can with it and if you can only write two or three sentences about any of the 5 elements then that's OK. Not everyone here is currently at a level which will allow them to articulate their thoughts and opinions. After your initial post is made you can feel free to civilly discuss issues of contention. I am sure there will be many opinions expressed here that some of us will disagree upon and criticise and it is for that reason that this entire club exists. So I hope everyone has fun and I am really looking forward to watching this discussion unfold. *Due to voting rule changes, this series is permanently inducted from its first poll data. RESULTS OF THE YOU DECIDE POLL Top wo Nerae! was inducted into the club Anime list: 37 Yes - 86.0% 6 No - 14.0% 55 Don't know this anime - 55.0% of the total number polled 2 Abstained - 2.0% of the total number polled On 05/07/2010, Top wo Nerae! will have to be voted on for a second and final time[/b] |
LindleMay 6, 2018 5:10 AM
| You do not beg the sun for mercy. |
| I really don't want to see this one end up with a lot "I do not know this anime" on the final vote. There's absolutely no reason that should happen. Hell, this is anime practically every fan, regardless, should see. Everyone is familiar with other Gainax works, but this practically the only one that doesn't have the Gainax'd end. It's only 6 episodes and extremely marathonable, go watch it before the voting happens. Also, make sure you watch this before watching Diebuster, which you should watch directly afterward. Do not watch the condensed movie versions first, absolutely do not. It's tough to rate this show for the individual aspects, but I'll try. Animation: For 1988, it's pretty decent throughout. I've heard stories that this was meant to be a longer TV show, and I'm thankful it wasn't. People don't reflect on 80's OVAs for no reason, it's because by and large they're all of higher quality in many ways. Things move quite well, and the art is usually consistent and decent. Only one real thing bothers me, when the main machine takes off and they mess up with the stars in the background. But at other times it's insanely well done with tons of stuff moving on screen smoothly. Sound: A lot of the series is actually done with the absence of sound, but there is some sound design there. The music is what makes it amazing. Some of it is steeped in the 80's pop, but others exude the feelings of truly epic moments. The parts without music are also part of the sound, because they emphasize those parts of the show. Characters: Very few, but memorable. A lot of prototypes for later Gainax people, like Jung Freud being Asuka. Story: Struggle for the future of mankind while also exploring the galaxy. Typical stuff, but with enough original flair that it shouldn't seem done before. Enjoyment: This is where the show shines. It's a serious endeavor, but also has tons of over-the-top moments mixed in which lets you know that it's mostly a parody of the giant robot genre. Tons of real and pseudo science is used, but never expressly focused on. The show is just fun to watch and can actually make you feel emotions. I can't describe the end, you'll just have to see it, but it's one the actual few well done endings in any anime. The show is definitely over-the-top, but not to the point of insanity of Gurren Lagann. It's just one of those shows you just need see to understand. I gave it a 10/10, mostly from the enjoyment overall of the series. |
| Been meaning to watch this for several years, hope I really get around to it in time for the decide thread. |
 |
| It did not impress me. What have I done wrong? |
 Waratte Oemashou Sore ha Chiisana Inori |
| Perhaps this was a mistake, but I actually watched Diebuster first. Diebuster is so overt in its campy, parody humor that it makes Gunbuster look like a genuine and serious attempt at the genre. It has all the cheese of Diebuster, but not much of the self-aware snark that lets you know it's ok to laugh at it. The first few episodes are particularly tough to sit through, and whenever the romance is involved, I have a strong impulse to delete the thing right quick. To top it off, there's really bafflingly unnecessary ecchi-fanservice in awkwardly dramatic places. If you stick it through to the end though, you'll be rewarded with one of the most amazing and beautiful, touching yet creative endings I've ever seen. And the Diebuster ending will only make sense if you actually watch this. Overall, I like it, but I'm going to say no. |
| Fuck yeah, Wakamoto Norio. I loved that part in the 5th science lesson when coach warps into the screen. Anyway, I find it difficult to rate relatively old shows because there's this nagging feeling that everything's already been done before, and I have to keep on reminding myself that this came before Evangelion, TTGL, Hoshi no Koe, etc. where many concepts are further refined. The romance was forgettable, the "science" a bit more interesting, but what really kept my attention was the idea of time dilation. There are many ways of trying to induce sadness in fiction (deaths and other tragedies being the most typical), but the loss of time (or being unable to keep up with it) is something I don't encounter too often. It's somewhat depressing to watch Noriko meeting and parting again with her old friends, knowing that she would never be able to live in the same age as them. Verdict: still sitting on the fence, but leaning towards "yes" |
ladyxzeus said: It did not impress me. What have I done wrong? You did not watch it in 1988. Yuunagi already pointed out that much of what was interesting about it has been done oodles of times afterwards. In a sense, the very success of a show like this one led to a heap of imitations and the loss of any novelty value, leaving mostly the less brilliant elements to remain sharp in memory. I watched TwN! somewhere earlier this year, mostly on Archaeon's recommendation. Already, I have forgotten much of it, mostly because it was, indeed, all too familiar, but what I do recall speaks rather favourably of this show. Hence this rather short post. At first, it felt like I was watching some weird hybrid of existing space anime and Starship Troopers, mostly because of the attention to the period in training. This makes a lot of sense and shows for once that much of the ability to pilot you average anime robot doesn't come naturally. While some of the antics and exercises performed during this training seemed somewhat ludicrous, it did enhance the idea that one has to learn once again how to move and stand still. It helps that the show offers an explanation of much of the science behind the technology. Of course, much of this was bogus, but it made it clear that it was well thought-out nonsense and bespoke the consistency of the technological vision over the episodes, which did rather extend over time. As has been pointed out, the issue of time dilation was handled well. Using it is, in itself, not the most innovative of ideas, but TwN! managed to give it emphasis by using it as a recurring theme, applying over different time frames and with different persons. The aging, real and relative, of the character was handled well and also shown in the way they were drawn. The animation, in general, was pretty good, though I find myself often saying that for shows from that particular time (it sometimes seems as if animation quality regressed in the early 90s). While the background are often filled with your typical action colour splash, it also is used to emphasise space and spatial distance. The character design was a bit weak, but they were animated well enough, Though there was quite a bit of fanservice (I found out that it even has a name, namely, 'Gainax bounce', which is used within fandom. Oh, you silly Japanime fanatics!), at least it was of the actual 'service' kind, that is, not interfering with the progress of scenes and story at all. This is rare enough that I tend to actually welcome it. Moreover, at least the animators were aware that in some settings it makes more sense to show nudity than to cover it up, even if one can question the need for such settings at all. It's difficult to appreciate the characters for what they were. We've seen them all too many times. Perhaps they were the first of their types back then; perhaps we can dig up the same types from some show aired fifty years earlier of from some novel; what can be said is that, if it is so that they made this show when it first came out, this aspect has diminished over the years. That said, their interaction flows rather naturally from their character types and is rarely forced. What struck me when watching this show is that its better elements - portrayal of technology, time dilation, use of space - all seem to appear one after another, with each one filling up a 'quality vacuum' after something lapsed. This means that, over the six episodes, which themselves manage to offer different attention angles, that which makes this anime more than simply likable also changes. I'm not sure whether this is sheer coincidence or expressly put in. At any rate, the anime never bored me. I'm not sure how much of my appreciation of this show stems from making allowances for its age, and how much stems from actually thinking it was good. Therefore, while leaning to 'Yes', I'd like to be convinced one way or another. |
| You do not beg the sun for mercy. |
| Previous post outlining influence over actual 'merit': It's been at least fifteen months since I watched Top wo Nerae, but I'm sure I remember enough for a post, which I suppose is either testament to its memorability or my mecha fanatic tendencies. Yuunagi brings up an important point in Gainax's usage of time dilation as a means to induce pathos. I suppose the importance of time doesn't need to be repeated, and it's in this inherently human recognition of the importance of time that their loss gains its true impact. As far as I know, Top wo Nerae was not only the first anime to portray the loss of time in its scientific sense, but also in that of a more personal sense: while focus is drawn to Noriko and Kazumi's return to their friends to realise that they have missed months - or even years - of their peers' lives, especially upon their return to Earth, we realise that the people who have waited for them are the true victims of the time dilations. The most prominent example (touched upon) was that of Kazumi and Coach Wakamoto's reunion: while it may have been months for her, judging from Noriko's reacquaintance with a decades-older high school friend, we can only assume that Norio, though he had been in space for a time, had been waiting for Kazumi in the span of years. Of course, my memory could be faulty. Another important aspect of both the series' influence and its enduring merit is of Noriko and her more human struggle. As I pointed out, Noriko was the first real-robot-tempered emotional super-robot pilot, and endearingly so. I would be lying if I said she didn't follow many archetypal Gundam lead conventions: the classic coming-of-age character who loses her parents and gains admired companions who help her in transcending her childish mentality, so on and so forth. However, the cast of Top wo Nerae sets itself apart from Gundam casts without seeming awkwardly alienated. Kazumi may not be a Char, but she's an admirable onee-sama character who also displays Noriko's emotional realism. Coach Wakamoto is by no means a perfect leader, but only because he isn't can we relate to him as a regretful survivor, hoping to honour his leader's death by supporting his daughter. Of course, this death is significant in that it is both the beginning and end of Noriko's indecision as a pilot. The series begins with her retelling of her loss and ambition to reach space and follow in her father's footsteps as a result. However, her insecurities and realisation of the dangers in space are mitigated by her acceptance of death. The death of her father, of crewmates, of a friend - time and again will death be used as a means to portray a pilot's vulnerability. The acceptance of her father's death does leave her in zetsubou for a time, but it is only through her gradual acceptance of the gravity of her task that she is able to finally master the Gunbusta. Top wo Nerae is still important to this day in that death is portrayed only as a series of inevitabilities leading to Noriko's despair. Never is death used as a means for pathetic sentimentality as it would be in future mecha series. Sentimentality is not drawn upon for physical loss in Top wo Nerae as much as the more abstract but equally (or perhaps more) plaintive loss of time. Most modern coming-of-age mecha stories focus too much on both death and resulting melancholy as melodrama in and of itself, with little progression in effect; some notable examples of such would include Macross, Eureka Seven (everything Bones does, really), the notorious Gundam Seed, and even Gurren Lagann to some extent. In fact, I'd extend such melodrama to most mecha series in general, Geass in particular. Even though its influence has done more to shape mecha as a whole than anything of its time period (let's say late 80's), it also had a profound impact on the coming-of-age formula as a whole. About the fanservice: Unlike today, 80's OVA's were a means for lower-budget studios to animate their scenarios, as TV series could only be financed by the largest of studios. That left OVA's as the low-budget vehicles of interpretation largely focusing on fanservice. In fact, Megazone 23, generally considered to be the OVA that revolutionised the industry, features an extended teenage sex scene and its sequel has the most notoriously graphic sex scene in non-hentai anime. Anno's style of fanservice is actually refreshing: little wasted time, no silly censors (thank the 80's), no pantyshots for the sake of pantyshots, &c. |
| Oh yeah, I just noticed that none of us mentioned the ending. It's said that the ending can effect anime, any media really, and how much the viewer enjoys it. Well, for what it's worth, I thought Top wo Nerae has one of the greatest anime endings I've seen. Actually, I'd put the entire last episode as one of my favorite anime episodes. The fact that the entire last episode, I believe, was animated in black and white added to this. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
| @ qtipbrit Wow. Nicely said my friend. There's little I can add to what qtipbrit's already said, but here goes. 1. Santetjan mentioned the training aspect. Can anyone actually think of an anime where this is shown in as much detail? I certainly can't. 2. The fight between Kazumi and Jung is singular in that it shows how much control, effort and coordination is required to not only fly their robots, but also to fight in them. Only a few other shows will actually show the more technical side of piloting, Macross Plus being one example of this. It's this factor that highlights the difference between TwN and almost every other mech show out there, as not being able to control your robot properly in TwN could cost you your life - something that's heavily glossed over or ignored in many other shows. 3. Noriko may go through some depression, but who wouldn't. She loses her father in the first battle of the war, joins up only to find the training is extremely difficult, gets paired up with someone who thinks she's a liability, gets bullied by the school's number 2 pilot, loses her love interest, and most importantly, is surrounded by people who really are better than she is - genius pilots notwithstanding. Wouldn't you be a little depressed with all that going on? At the very least, there was more justification for Noriko's depression than there was for Shinji's in NGE. 4. The time daliation aspect has been mentioned several times already, but I'm racking my brains trying to think of another show that cast it in human terms. 5. The OVA isn't meant to be happy, or glorious, or cheerful, even though there may be occasions when this is the case. The OVA is about war, and the lengths to which humanity will go in order to survive. When you're fighting for your very existence, things like romances tend to be fairly wishy washy affairs - other things to think about and all that. And Buster Machine #3, along with Operation Carneades, should highlight just how far humanity will go to live, but it's not the only sign of this instinct for survival. The fact that, at a certain point in the conflict, they build a ship to evacute Earth is also important in understanding how far humans will go. Is there anyother anime out there, with the exception of TTGL (which while it shows this, does so in a pretty ludicrous manner), that shows the lengths to which humans, as a race of sentient beings will go to survive? 6. Following on from 5, has anyone here looked at the technological aspects of World War 1 & 2? The fact that most of humanity's resources are diverted to combatting the alien threat is surprisingly overlooked by many people. The accelerated passage of time is partly to blame for this, as all the in-between stages of design, research, testing, etc, are missed out, yet the fact remains that human technology advances at a much faster rate than normal when the world is at war. Need I mention the correlation between the development of the atomic bomb, and the development of Buster Machine #3? 7. The space monsters were not simply mindless beings, and their kamikaze attacks on BM #3 in the final episode highlight the fact that they knew it was the biggest threat to their existence. There's more I could say to be honest, but that would involve a complete breakdown of most of the OVA. Instead I'll just put my MAL review here: One thing I will ask everyone to consider is this. If TwN had never been made, then NGE, TTGL, Diebuster, Code Geass, and a surprising number of other shows that involve mechs and high school, would not be the same (if they were made at all). TwN may not have been the first mech show involving "real" robots (i.e. little more than armoured powered suits), but it paved the way for other shows of it's genre. And while it may be old, it displays far more realism (and by this I don't mean the hokey science, but the actions of the characters and the human race in the face of extinction, the accelerated evolution of technology, the effects of time dilation on the characters, etc), than almost every other mech or robot show (Patlabor being a notable exception). |
ArchaeonNov 5, 2009 6:22 PM
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
| Another thing that I liked about the show was the transition in the latter episodes. Episode 4 clearly shows TwN's roots in the super robot genre with the Gunbuster single-handedly blowing away all opposition. Episode 5 continues this trend for a bit with the titular mech showcasing its arsenal. However, the Gunbuster by then is delegated to merely accompanying the Exelion to its designated target, and their plan somewhat resembles an actual military operation with some strategy involved. The final episode takes this a step further with the Gunbuster no longer sufficient alone, though still a decisive factor in the war. The third Buster Machine is accompanied by a fleet of several thousand ships, and the armada contributes more to the battle than your typical cannon fodder (fans of Evangelion might recall professor Fuyutsuki lamenting about conventional weapons being “a waste of the taxpayer's money”). Add to that what Archaeon has mentioned about humanity's resources being diverted to the war effort and one can easily see how Top wo Nerae! bridges the super robot and real robot genres. |
| Gunbuster should be appreciated for putting into perspective the growth of director Hideaki Anno's talent. As in a "Holy Christ did he suck!" kinda way. Let not another sentence be wasted before telling the truth: Gunbuster is bad. The plot is paper- thin, the characters are non, and the directing is lame. Looking at Gunbuster, one begins to understand how there could be such a commotion over Neon Genesis Evangelion: all to Anno's credit, it's unbelievable how far he had come as a director at that point. Imagine for a moment that The Dark Knight, as you have seen it, was made by Tim Story roughly ten years after he had finished The Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer, and you have a pretty good idea of the reason why Evangelion is such a marvel. That's because watching Gunbuster, it becomes incredibly hard to believe that the same person responsible for it's utter lack of tension, literally useless characters and hackneyed story was capable of pulling off a masterpiece of storytelling a decade later. Not to mention being able to do the entire premise of Gunbuster a bajillion times better another decade later with Gurren- Lagann. But just what is it that makes Gunbuster so bad? To put in two words: it's amateurishness. On it's own, the concept and the ideas behind Gunbuster could have very well worked, but it fumbles the execution so freking hard that the experience of watching it becomes a chore. The idea is that Takaya Noriko is a teen girl studying to become a mecha pilot to join the army in order to fend off an alien invasion. She's also the daughter of the first space ship captain to venture out against said alien foe. Coincidentally, she sucks. She is one of the worst trainees in her school, and she barely has any hopes of becoming a pilot. However, she quickly makes friends with the ace pilot candidate of her school, Amano Kazuki, and the new coach sent over to her school to choose the two pilots to take on the mission turns out to be the sole remnant of the crew of Takaya's father. He staunchly believes that despite Takaya's fumblings, she has what it takes to become an ace pilot. So, as it goes, pepped up by the coach, Noriko decides to train hard so as to live up to the coach's expectations and to carry on her fathers heritage. As you can see, the plot is standard fare for this kind of thing, but plot was never an important aspect for mecha anime. Mecha stories always tried to win audiences over with epic battles and intrigueing character interaction. Gunbuster fails both these aspects, and right in the second episode at that! By that time, the two chosen pilots (Takaya and Amano of course) are sent to a large space station orbiting the Earth in order to train with the rest of the pilots for repelling the aliens. There, they meet the single, most inexcusably bad character of mecha anime history (and possibly all of anime history): Jung Freud. Jung Freud is a very special kind of bad because you can play the worst drinking game in the world with her. Hey, why not try it out right now if you have the patince! The rules are simple: watch Gunbuster again in it's entirety, skipping over every scene that has Jung Freud in it. Take a drink every time there is something that you feel you would not understand about the story due to skipping Jung Freud's scenes. See why it's the worst drinking game in the world? You don't get a damn sip! Besides being barely something you could call a "character" in a "story", and more like a dangerous bipolar cunt who's either friends with the two main girls or antagonizes them depending on what mood Anno was in at the time of making any given scene, she adds ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the plot! I'm serious: remove every scene in which Jung Freud makes an appearance (there isn't a single line of dialog that references her when she isn't around), and NOTHING CHANGES! The story remains perfectly comprehensable, and the character relations stay christal clear. Seriously, there's absolutely no reason for Jung Freud to be in the story at all! She never does anything important and none of her scenes are vital to anything in the story. Sure, there are loads of anime characters that you can actively hate, but at least those characters add something to their specific stories. Jung Freud doesn't even accomplish that! She's literally the most worthless anime character ever made! Still, a single enigma of character- existence should not be enough to make a story suck. Sadly, the rest of the cast does not fare much better. It's not that they are unlikable or something like that, it's just that they are all underdeveloped and boring. None of the characters have a single remarkable personality trait that would make them interesting. And since the series is so much character- rather than plot centric, it ends up being all the worse fo it! Since we can't bring ourselves to care about these characters, watching them going through their struggles is just boring. It doesn't help that the directing is so lame. Perhaps it's a concious decision, seeing as most of the action takes place in outer space, but one thing is for certain: Gunbuster succesfully manages to to turn all of it's big, dramatic scenes completely weightless! There are scenes of tragedy, victory, impending doom and time passing all over Gunbuster, but the directing is so slow that they lose all their emotional pull. And when there's a big space fight, the directing is either not good enough to cause us to worry at least a little bit about the characters involved, or it deliberately makes the absolute worst decisions possible (I'll get back on this point right away). It's interesting to note that the alien foe in Gunbuster is never ever shown for half of the story. Yes, there is an encounter with them in the first half, but we don't get to actually see them until the second half. This might have been a good way to make the aliens even more menacing, but events in Gunbuster unfold so slowly that we can't take the threat seriously because we can not believe that any human being would remain in inaction for so long. The most interesting thing about Gunbuster is it's very own scientific gimmick of time- dilation. Since most of the characters travel in subspace faster than light, it's explained that time for people in regular space goes faster than for people in subspace. While this remains nothing but a convenient plot- device to set up an interesting story premise here and there, at least it doesn't outstay it's welcome, and it helps to give the story a humongous scale. There is one thing I haven't talked about yet, though I absolutely must, and that is the one episode of Gunbuster that encapsulates everything that's wrong with it into thirty minutes: the final episode. The first thing you have to know about it is that it all plays out in black and white. Remember, this is not a story that should be taken seriously, this is a story about two girls sitting in a giant asspull of a secret weapon super mecha that can singlehandidly defeat entire legions of alien spaceships. The fact that the last episode actively tries to show the characters as people who have grown up during the course of their lives, in a bloody giant robot story, just makes the entire concept all the more pretentious! Just like Jung Freuds existence, there was absolutely no reason for the episode to be filmed this way. Remember when I said that the directing delibaretly makes the worst decisions possible? The final episode of Gunbuster is about humanity striking back at the aliens at their core, attempting to rid itself of them once and for all. It features the biggest battle of the entire story, and the best chance for all the characters to get liked by the audience by being badass against a gazillion aliens. The director skips through the entire battle in a montage. This might sound merely annoying on paper, but it's mind numbing when experienced. It is the experience of waiting for hours for a single awsome scene to happen only to find out that that one scene was never made in the first place! It simultainiously spits in the face of both the audience AND storytelling in general! And you can't even fault Gunbuster for being old! If Rose of Versailles was capable of fabricating a gripping story with characters we couldn't not care about, A DECADE EARLIER, OUT OF HISTORICAL EVENTS THAT WE ALL KNEW THE ENDING TO NO LESS, the fact that Gunbuster can't produce a single exciting scene in a GIANT ROBOT STORY THAT IS COMPLETELY MADE UP, THEREFORE FREE TO BE CHANGED BY THE CREATORS AT ANY TIME is simply inexcusable! In the end, it was for the good of everyone that director Hideaki Anno realised what he had to work on in order to not be bad, and it's almost a miracle that he was capable of such advancement as a director. In the meantime, Gunbuster stands as proof that even the most accomplished directors might have been awful back in old times, and that the Bay of today might turn into the Scorsese of tomorrow! Hey, an industry can dream, right? |
Archaeon said: 4. The time dilation aspect has been mentioned several times already, but I'm racking my brains trying to think of another show that cast it in human terms. Voices of a Distant Star, maybe? |
| Ah yes. How could I forget. Thanks for that Afterglow. @ Dozer Good review you have there. I disagree with everything you've said though, and there more than a smattering of vindictiveness about which makes it difficult to take seriously, but then we're used to that by now :) |
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
| Do elaborate on that vindictiveness of mine, I'm interested. |
| Actually, Voices of a Distant star disregards time dilation and characters age at the same pace. The years of separation in that show are due to the distance separating them (8 light years) and the time necessary for Mikako's messages to reach Noboru. In fact, the headlines on the newspapers in Noboru's apartment state that the fleet won the battle in Agharta 8 years ago. Still, there are many parallels (general premise, themes of separation, ship designs and weapons even), and I wouldn't be surprised if Makoto Shinkai borrowed some of these elements directly from TwN. |
YuunagiNov 9, 2009 8:33 AM
| Just out of spite I will vote No on the revote. I'm sick of everyone talking wonders about this anime and me not being able to remember it. It must not be that good. That or I was with a coffin like hangover. |
Waratte Oemashou Sore ha Chiisana Inori |
| You could always try watching it again. After all, it's only 6 episodes, and you may have a different perception of it this time around. And it's still a yes from me. |
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
| Was it good? Yes. Was it great? I'm not sure. For it's time I'm sure it was amazing but, for the purpose of this club, should that matter? Probably not. I suppose the main issue for me is how much it tries to accomplish in only 6 episodes, it all ends up feeling a tad bit rushed. I want to sympathize with the characters but none of them feel complete enough for me to really care. To its credit what it did manage to cover in 6 episodes was rather impressive, with few if any wasted scenes, but then again should it be given slack for being short? And if so how much? Personally episodes constraints aren't an excuse for incomplete stories or rushed pacing. There is a certain indescribable charm to the show. I suppose it was as if at some level the love its creators put into it was tangible. I'm not sure what to say, even though logically I didn't really care for it, the sentimental part of me insists I should love it. In the end I think I'll have to vote "no," I just don't notice anything about it that takes it from good to great. What it does with what it had is impressive but that doesn't make it great in and of itself. |
bbobjs said: What it does with what it had is impressive Erm, I thought that was one of the hallmarks of something being "great" - which is purely a subjective term anyway. The one question I have to ask is this - why is everyone so determined to disregard any influence the show had? If you're truly thinking of a show in it's entirety then this aspect of it cannot be ignored. Now one could argue that you simply have to take the show on it's merits, but, and correct me here if I'm wrong in thinking like this, I thought the influence a show had/has was one of its merits. A question to consider here. Many people no longer believe Citizen Kane is the greatest movie ever made. I'm one of them. The quality isn't the same as now, the acting is sometimes hammed up, the script could have been tighter, etc, etc. However, if it came to a vote of whether it should be in a list like ours, well guess what? It would be in like Flynn. The same principal applies here. You're using the standards of today to judge something from the past. While there may be some merit to doing this, one has to remember that social attitudes, technology, target market, etc, were all very different then. If you only judge it in comparison to what is available today, then you can't really say that you're following the priniciples of the club, especially as a true critic will view something in its entirety. For the purposes of this club, I'd say influence was essential. Otherwise we're still simply pandering to popularity, and have no right to call ourselves "critics". |
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
Archaeon said: bbobjs said: What it does with what it had is impressive Erm, I thought that was one of the hallmarks of something being "great" - which is purely a subjective term anyway. The one question I have to ask is this - why is everyone so determined to disregard any influence the show had? If you're truly thinking of a show in it's entirety then this aspect of it cannot be ignored. Now one could argue that you simply have to take the show on it's merits, but, and correct me here if I'm wrong in thinking like this, I thought the influence a show had/has was one of its merits. A question to consider here. Many people no longer believe Citizen Kane is the greatest movie ever made. I'm one of them. The quality isn't the same as now, the acting is sometimes hammed up, the script could have been tighter, etc, etc. However, if it came to a vote of whether it should be in a list like ours, well guess what? It would be in like Flynn. The same principal applies here. You're using the standards of today to judge something from the past. While there may be some merit to doing this, one has to remember that social attitudes, technology, target market, etc, were all very different then. If you only judge it in comparison to what is available today, then you can't really say that you're following the priniciples of the club, especially as a true critic will view something in its entirety. For the purposes of this club, I'd say influence was essential. Otherwise we're still simply pandering to popularity, and have no right to call ourselves "critics". Going to have to agree with this, it is undeniable how important Top wo Nerae! is to anime and that it is a must watch. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
Archaeon said: Of course it can. Something being first or inspirational has nothing whatsoever to do with how good it is. You are asking for it to stand on the shoulders of its successors which is serious special treatment. If something is good it is good. If not then not. I don't see why it's more complicated than that.The one question I have to ask is this - why is everyone so determined to disregard any influence the show had? If you're truly thinking of a show in it's entirety then this aspect of it cannot be ignored. insan3soldiern said: But is that the purpose of the club? To lift forth series important to the developement and culture of anime? That doesn't resonate with my interpretation of "coming up with a list of highly recommended quality shows". This is not being critics. This is being nerds who keep certain things holy even when they have been outdone.it is undeniable how important Top wo Nerae! is to anime and that it is a must watch. That said i have no idea what to think of Gunbuster. It hardly ever impressed me except for the end but even then i admitted that it could have been just because of my mood when i watched it. At that it was a really long time ago. Seeing as this is the second vote i really should rewatch it. |
Volba said: I dunno. It's not like we could call Newton an idiot for not knowing quantum mechanics. Similarly, I believe that the classical myths and folktales are still worth recommending though many styles and practices such as deus ex machina have fallen out of favor.You are asking for it to stand on the shoulders of its successors which is serious special treatment. |
Volbla said: But is that the purpose of the club? To lift forth series important to the developement and culture of anime? That doesn't resonate with my interpretation of "coming up with a list of highly recommended quality shows". This is not being critics. This is being nerds who keep certain things holy even when they have been outdone. Erm, I have to disagree. The nerd will keep certain things "holy", however they do so without any real justification, and won't generally focus on the show as a whole (and by this I mean everything that the show does or does not accomplish). The critic views the whole of the thing not simply in terms of "good" and "bad", but also in terms of past, present and future. The clue is in the club title after all - Critics & Connoisseurs. One could justifiably class the nerd as a type of "connoisseur", however this doth not a critic make. Criticism is the activity of judgement and/or informed interpretation and, in many cases, can be synonymous with "analysis". If we're not doing that, then the club needs to change its name. Coming up with a list of highly recommended shows is all well and good, however denying something a place on the list just because you don't like it, and disregarding anything that the anime/manga has actually achieved, doesn't really equate with calling ourselves "critics & connoisseurs". One of the toughest things in the world is finding the good in what you hate, and the bad in what you love. That's what a critic does. Anything else is just someone stating an opinion rather than making an informed interpretation. Volbla said: You are asking for it to stand on the shoulders of its successors which is serious special treatment. Actually it's the other way around. Its successors are standing on its shoulders, and since everyone sees fit to marginalise the show in favour of what's "new and shiny", I'd say yes, it deserves a bit more attention than the norm. Do you honestly believe that NGE would have been anywhere near what it became if Anno hadn't already tested the format with TwN? Contrary to popular belief, NGE didn't change the way mecha was viewed, TwN did. By the time NGE came around, audiences were ready to accept something completely different to what Gundam and Macross were offering, and the reason for that was because TwN had given Anno a huge following in Japan, and people were expecting him to deliver on the promise he made with that show. As a final note as to how much this show deserves to be on the list, Gainax chose to celebrate their 20th anniversary by releasing a sequel OVA to TwN. As far as I'm aware, it's the only show from their stable to have that honour, and the sequel very clearly pays homage to the original in almost every aspect. |
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
| @Archaeon: Consider the first block of text in our club description. First and foremost, I would like to make it clear that this is not an elitist club. Our goal is to come up a list of highly recommended quality shows that are exemplary either within genre or universally. However, everyone has different standards when it comes to this, so I have made up a short list of basic requirements with the goal of ensuring maximum participation from our members. The meaning of what we choose to call ourselves is rather irrelevant next to an explicit definition; regardless the meaning of our name remains valid. Critiquing isn't the listed goal but it's a part of the process; instead of using a generalized form, we critique to judge if a show belongs on our list. The question then is how recommendable/exemplary is it.So, as a critics/connoisseur, do I recommend this show? I definitely had a positive reaction to the show but it wasn't a strongly positive reaction that would leave me inclined to recommend it to someone unless they were to inquire about it directly. As a critic I can appreciate it and its influence on an academic but I question if that should matter when recommending it. Personally I'm inclined to believe that if something's appreciation is conditional, then it's almost by definition not worthy of general recommendation. As a final note as to how much this show deserves to be on the list, Gainax chose to celebrate their 20th anniversary by releasing a sequel OVA to TwN. As far as I'm aware, it's the only show from their stable to have that honour, and the sequel very clearly pays homage to the original in almost every aspect. Again this isn't evidence that the show itself was impressive but rather that it had impact. The problem is that the impact of the show is lost with time and really exists outside of the show. We shouldn't be voting on what the show was, we should vote on what it is. |
bbobjsMay 5, 2010 2:21 AM
Archaeon said: Ah. Of course we shouldn't disregard something because we don't like it. We should disregard it if it's not really all that good.Coming up with a list of highly recommended shows is all well and good, however denying something a place on the list just because you don't like it, and disregarding anything that the anime/manga has actually achieved, doesn't really equate with calling ourselves "critics & connoisseurs". Archaeon said: Yes, but that comes naturally from the creators learning from the past and shows getting better (hopefully). If NGE stands on TwN's shoulders it's because the creators of the show new there was something good to get from the old one. If TwN stands on (for example) NGE's shoulders it's because we choose to put it there and not because it actually has anything to offer over NGE. NGE's shoulderstanding is included in the show itself, while TwN's shoulderstanding is imposed by us.Actually it's the other way around. Its successors are standing on its shoulders Yuunagi said: Not at all, but we should also admit that his theory is flawed and therefore shouldn't be prefered to more refined ones. Well, Newton is maybe a bad example since his models are still useful. Take Copernicus. He was a cool guy for realizing heliocentrism, but that doesn't mean we still teach that planets go in perfect circles around the sun.Volba said: I dunno. It's not like we could call Newton an idiot for not knowing quantum mechanics.You are asking for it to stand on the shoulders of its successors which is serious special treatment. Of course it's not the same with fictions which doesn't necessarily get better with time, but old ideas shouldn't be prefered on the sole basis that they are revolutionizing. Recognized maybe, but not prefered. |
Volbla said: If TwN stands on (for example) NGE's shoulders it's because we choose to put it there and not because it actually has anything to offer over NGE. NGE's shoulderstanding is included in the show itself, while TwN's shoulderstanding is imposed by us. This is a fallacy as the two shows are linked by more than one thread, not the least of which is having the same director. They are the two shows that are synonymous with Anno after all. You may consider TwN to be standing on the shoulders of NGE, but what a person believes isn't always what is. The fact is that NGE attained popularity because of the success of TwN. Anno established a dedicated fan base within the anime community back when the show was first released, and without that NGE wouldn't have gained the same degree of notoriety/popularity. Also, without TwN as a "test bed" for a number ideas that he used in NGE, the latter series may have been very different or not as "good". As for the Copernicus/Newton analogy, while we may no longer teach that planets have perfectly circular orbits, their contribution to science is undeniable, and it's because of their discoveries that their names are remembered through the ages. We may have bright new theories and quantum physics, but there's not a scientist out there who would deride what they, or any other scientific pioneer, discovered. The discoveries of scientist from the past aren't simply a part of history, but form the foundations upon which modern science stands. That is undeniable. That is fact. Now apply that to TwN, and consider how much it changed the ball game for mecha anime. Compare it to what was available at the time, and you'll see that with the notable exception of Patlabor, TwN offered the audience something that no other mecha show had until then - a "realistic" setting with "realisitic" characters, a story that was highly plausible in several aspects, a number of animation tricks that are still used today, and much more. Now consider all those mecha shows that came after, and it's clear to see how much TwN influenced the genre. bbobjs said: we critique to judge if a show belongs on our list And in order to critique something we have to look at all aspects of it, good and bad. The problem is that while some of us are willing to do this, others are simply going by personal taste and ignoring the rest. That's fine if you just want someone's opinion, but if you're going to make a list of "quality" (and this is a purely subjective term), anime and manga, then isn't it better that people look at the subject's merits and detriments? Just because a series doesn't rate a 9 or 10 doesn't mean it's not quality, or worthy of our list. |
| What a day! What a lovely Day! |
Archaeon said: You may consider TwN to be standing on the shoulders of NGE, but what a person believes isn't always what is. The fact is that NGE attained popularity because of the success of TwN. Anno established a dedicated fan base within the anime community back when the show was first released, and without that NGE wouldn't have gained the same degree of notoriety/popularity. Also, without TwN as a "test bed" for a number ideas that he used in NGE, the latter series may have been very different or not as "good". Absolutely, i don't deny that, but let's use another analogy. Say i come up with a method for building a house (think long ago). I then come up with a better, more refined method making the house more sturdy. Without the first method i would not have reached the second one. That doesn't mean i still teach the first method to my disciples. It could be fun to know about but not something necessary. Yeah, that's kinda how i look at it. Something of historical significance like this may be fun for nerds to know about, but it's not something i would recomend to the common man on that basis alone. It is only interesting to a certain number of people, and unless we can point that out in our club relations i don't think that should be an influence to whether we put it there. Again, "coming up with a list of highly recommended quality shows". For everyone. Archaeon said: And is TwN's influence a good aspect? To anime, but not to the show itself.And in order to critique something we have to look at all aspects of it, good and bad. |
Volbla said: Archaeon said: You may consider TwN to be standing on the shoulders of NGE, but what a person believes isn't always what is. The fact is that NGE attained popularity because of the success of TwN. Anno established a dedicated fan base within the anime community back when the show was first released, and without that NGE wouldn't have gained the same degree of notoriety/popularity. Also, without TwN as a "test bed" for a number ideas that he used in NGE, the latter series may have been very different or not as "good". Absolutely, i don't deny that, but let's use another analogy. Say i come up with a method for building a house (think long ago). I then come up with a better, more refined method making the house more sturdy. Without the first method i would not have reached the second one. That doesn't mean i still teach the first method to my disciples. It could be fun to know about but not something necessary. Yeah, that's kinda how i look at it. Something of historical significance like this may be fun for nerds to know about, but it's not something i would recomend to the common man on that basis alone. It is only interesting to a certain number of people, and unless we can point that out in our club relations i don't think that should be an influence to whether we put it there. Again, "coming up with a list of highly recommended quality shows". For everyone. Archaeon said: And is TwN's influence a good aspect? To anime, but not to the show itself.And in order to critique something we have to look at all aspects of it, good and bad. And no matter how you twist and turn it, the first house that was built is more impressive for it's time than any newer house based off the same design. Just because the show is older and newer shows have come along does not lessen the qualities of the older show, that is still very impressive for it's time. The same can be said about the movie Nosferatu, which was rater impressive technically for it's time, and can still be enjoyed by a modern audience for being a good movie. Going along the same lines; nobody considers Snow White to be an unrivaled masterpiece by today's standards, until people are reminded that it's the first feature length animated move ever made, and suddenly, it's a hell of a lot more impressive. The same goes for TnW! which may not be as impressive to the modern audience, but can not be denied as a great show when seen from it's historical perspective (as well as entertainment). To me, shows like TnW! are just as important as classic books, which may be dated, but still are vastly entertaining as well as influential to this day. And that counts when inducting something in C&C. |
| downloading it now and will be watching tomorrow just in time for the vote.. hope it's good.. |
AfterGlow said: No, but it will help put them in perspective.Just because the show is older and newer shows have come along does not lessen the qualities of the older show AfterGlow said: An argument i don't understand. We don't live in that time anymore, so how is it in any way applicable?that is still very impressive for it's time. AfterGlow said: Really? I thought we were telling folks with our reviews and club relations "Here. Go watch this." I wouldn't do that unless i think the work is actually good. Seeing old, influential stuff hasn't made me understand or appreciate the present any more. It's just not interesting to regular consumers who want to enjoy shows on their own merits.And that counts when inducting something in C&C. Let me put my last words to this topic. Must've plowed through three analogys by now, bust just one more :D A great painter. His sketches when from when he was ten. Yes, an extreme exaggeration, but i will not wonder at something like that because the guy later turned out to do something actually good. With that said i have now rewatched the series. My original impression of it stands. It is nothing special. Almost everything about the first episode is completely laughable, as is half of the sci-fi concepts the show introduces. And yes that should have been obvious even at the time. You don't explain that mechs are very hard to pilot only to show that "No, not really." I especially like this quote: "Don't think the combined Gunbuster is an ordinary machine!" How exactly is it not? Why does the Buster Beam kill the monsters when a bunch of photon torpedoes can not? Why can't the battleships have the same kind of weapons? If this is the first blend of real and super robots then it's not a good one. "Mechs are better because they are mechs" doesn't fly with me. You have to explain yourself. It does get better after the first ep, but is still not all that good when it comes to most things. Noriko is the only one resembling an actual character, but even she gets it in the ass. One minute she's crying, then all of a sudden "think i'll go pilot the gunbuster". That also warrants some sort of explanation. Far worse is Jung. I wonder if she somehow manages to be pregnant throughout the entire show cause her moodswings are out of this world. Kazumi is pretty good, but save for one episode she is very much kept in the background. The things i like are the majority of the last episode (even though the story was extremely rushed) and most stuff about Norikos dad. Gunbuster has some good ideas but they are not well put together. The time dilation is kinda interesting but mostly only glanced over. Overall the storytelling is very amateurish. I would only recommend this to very big mechafans. |
| @Archaeon: And in order to critique something we have to look at all aspects of it, good and bad. The problem is that while some of us are willing to do this, others are simply going by personal taste and ignoring the rest. That's fine if you just want someone's opinion, but if you're going to make a list of "quality" (and this is a purely subjective term), anime and manga, then isn't it better that people look at the subject's merits and detriments? True, but things should stand primarily on their own and the primary reasons given for inducting TwN have been its legacy.If we judge something we must consider the positive and the negative, we both agree on this. Then if we consider legacy an aspect which should be judged we must also consider its negative. I have not seen us do that and thus these words are empty. Beyond this it seems unreasonable to fault something for what exists outside of itself, which following the above logic would lend to not praising either. We are choosing to induct or not induct TwN, not TwN's lifetime achievements for the medium. |
| finished watching it.. i was about to hesitate and have a hard time on deciding for it till i see the last episode.. it's black and white and battles were carried on by panning out illustrations.. i don't know why they did this but it's a little inconsistent on the animation part.. so it gets a No from me.. that's too bad because all the character relations and developments and how time dilation makes drama along with its "legacy"-ness was about to compensate on my part all the ridiculousness at the beginning parts and all the <insert cool but corny move name like "INAZUMA KICK" here> which ruined the atmosphere on some of the moments i should've liked (i have nothing against it if used in the right moments though).. |
| We need a re-revote... |
| Even when I was in crowd, I was always alone |
| It started off pretty average, but picked up in quality around episode 4... Episode 5 was the one that really impressed me, however... enough to bring my rating up one full point. Episode 6 was no slouch either, and was a good way to end things. I still think episode 5 is the peak of the show, though... Volbla said: Something of historical significance like this may be fun for nerds to know about, but it's not something i would recomend to the common man on that basis alone. It is only interesting to a certain number of people I agree with you about critiquing things as they currently exist instead of trying to judge their quality through a pair of rose-tinted glasses. However... I'd have to disagree with your sentiment, about only being interesting to a certain number of people, and not recommendable to the common man. In terms of dramatic moments, cinematography, action, and animation quality I would say episode 5 ends up being incredibly impressive, even by today's standards. It's easily recommendable, nowadays, and not just to people who are curiously approaching it from a historical standpoint, but for anybody who is looking from some kind of entertainment. The first handful of episodes may not quite be on the same level as episode 5, but I wouldn't say they've aged poorly... more that they just aren't quite as well written or have quite as nice cinematography. I don't think in this case the historical significance really plays a part, since I would argue that the impressive parts of the show remain impressive today, and the unimpressive parts weren't historically significant back then, either. |
::End of Transmission:: What have I been watching? Click here and find out on my viewing blog, "Vigorous Viewing" |
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