Do the WANT to kill Gundam? :/

That's the most Gundam thing ever though.
Y'know the franchise created by Yoshiyuki "adults suck and are the source of all problems" Tomino.

What constitutes a "proper Gundam-anime" to you?

@Fail_Man_X A story governed by a plausible plot, not by child-characters who make things happen because "adults suck!!11".

gundam witch, like a lot of that writer's original series had no idea which direction it wanted to take, school dueling drama, corporate politics, terrorism and ended up doing all three poorly and had to wrap it all up in 2 cours with ideas recycled from more successful series.

On one hand I agree with you, the mecha genre is dying and we need Gundam to bring it back.
On the other hand, I understand that they're trying to attract more people to the franchise by broadening their demographic, although I think they've been doing it the wrong way, we'll see about this one, it actually looks promising.

@DiabloMask Well, at least things look like they've learned from their mistakes this time and will try to make things right with some great staff. But yes, given that this project was developed at the same time as G-Witch, if it gets the same ratings, then they will most likely choose a different direction to work with modern audiences in the future.

@RobertBobert
I don't mind what direction they take after this as long as they don't make cheap 3D mechs, that's the nightmare that's destroying the genre imo.

@DiabloMask Perhaps Sunrise decided that since they no longer strictly followed the Gundam formula, they could now break other "canons" as well.

@RobertBobert
I think it's because most dedicated Gundam fans grew up already they had to approach the franchise from other angles that would win over newer generations, I predict that instead of sticking to one direction they'll learn how flexible the Gundam franchise can be and begin to ride on trends, like Isekai and fantasy shows.

@MyllerPhiem I'm with you on this. I'd like to see a Gundam anime with the same type of atmosphere that Zeta gundam brought to the table.. it's been way too long since we had something like that.

After reading the Chinese leaks, I'm slightly more optimistic about this anime. I guess only time will tell. The mechanical and character designs are definitely not my cup of tea but I guess they might attract younger audiences to the franchise.

@Galletita Do we have any leaks about this? Can you be more specific, at least with a spoiler tag?

@MyllerPhiem This isn't so much a problem with G-WItch as it is with their writer Ichiro Okuchi's writing in general. Almost any of his scenarios is a wet dream about how zoomers (formerly millennials) fight against cheesy, evil and conservative adults in the worst traditions of the 90s. Moreover, he uses this everywhere, starting from the completely original PriPri and in the continuation of cult brands like the latest Lupin anime. Just try to look at his portfolio and count how many percent of them the main villain is the parents or simply older relatives of the MC. But yeah, while there's nothing wrong with trying to experiment, I don't think changing the focus from military edgy issues to OP school kids with robots is the best idea. Especially when your show is unable to cover even that well.

@DiabloMask But do you also thing, that this approach also increases risks, especially for people who have been collecting money for years thanks to a strict formula and are forced to experiment blindly for now?

@SleepingNinja15 And it's not like child-characters are a problem per se. Iron-Blooded Orphans was fantastic, but the children here had to overcome the fact that they're children, and they had to get help from adults at times, too. Suisei no Majo just has shallow, clicheed "we're children, but better than adults, because ... reasons!". It was so grating to see the silver-haired heroine talk to managers and politicians like she knows it all. oof.

@RobertBobert
I think that taking a safe approach in business maintains your level of success, but you only get more successful by taking risks.

@MyllerPhiem

This is an exceedingly shallow reading of any of what happened in G-Witch. For the most part, it’s writing within the thematic framework Gundam has always worked with when it comes to the issue of generational divides: the position that the new generation has the potential to break free of the cycle of old hatred that chain their predecessors to the past rather than moving forward into the future. Also, your stated problems with Miorine feel bizarre on account of how that prideful attitude of hers is a character flaw your not really supposed to like? It causes more problems for those around her than it solves, and

@DiabloMask You need to be able to take risks. Otherwise, you will only harm your business even more.

@Jeevasnt "every character has a problematic father figure" is literally exactly what they were saying. Something Tomino’s work doesn’t have. Already 0079 shows the problems of people regardless of age.

@Jeevasnt It's not fitting when a writer takes it to the borderline level of zoomer vs boomer memes, having previously inserted it into every show in one manner or another. Ichiro can legitimately be called the Japanese Stephen King due to the abuse of the same clichés everywhere. By the same logic, you could create a show where all the characters are Char-clones and say that it's appropriate because such characters appear frequently in the franchise.

@MyllerPhiem

This is an exceedingly shallow reading of any of what happened in G-Witch. For the most part, it’s writing within the thematic framework Gundam has always worked with when it comes to the issue of generational divides: the position that the new generation has the potential to break free of the cycle of old hatred that chain their predecessors to the past rather than moving forward into the future. Also, your stated problems with Miorine feel bizarre on account of how that prideful attitude of hers is a character flaw your not really supposed to like? It causes more problems for those around her than it solves, and

@RobertBobert My argument regarding "every character has a problematic father figure" is that arguing that this show in specific has a more anti adult messages that what the franchise usually has is wrong because the way these problematics are tackled end up in the character themselves accepting those adults in their heart in one way or another, which is the opposite of what the franchise has done in multiple times where it usually shows that accepting these adults ends up in the main characters having bad consequences. 0079 isn't as antil adult as tomino's other shows (though it still has amuro having a very bad relationship with his own parents), but if you go to stuff like Zeta (the protagonist ends up with several brain damage because he accepted the ideology of the adults in his life), F91 (Cecily's entire arc being about the adults in her life wanting her as a queen), Victory that has Uso literally saying "parents are supposed to die after giving birth"

idk, it doesnt seems as drastic
(also a show full of char-clones would be crazily amazing)

@Jeevasnt The problem is that not only does G-Witch exaggerate this into generational memes and '90s exploitation fiction, but it also makes it outright wish fulfillment in an attempt to pander to the modern, young audience that this show was practically officially yearning to attract. That's why I compared it to trying to defend a show full of Char-clones by saying that such characters weren't rare in the franchise. There is nothing wrong with studying and uncovering conflicts between generations. This is quite an interesting eternal topic. But Ichiro exploits this over and over again to attract a youth audience, which is why in his hands it has already turned into a cliché on the level of “young and ambitious children against conservative and stupid adults.”

@RobertBobert then it seems we're arguing different things because my comment is entirely focused on how this show isn't as anti adult as a response to "Suisei no Majo just has shallow, clicheed "we're children, but better than adults, because ... reasons!"", and saying that this theme is very often seen in the franchise and its presented in a similar way to this (though as i mentioned g-witch has the characters actually accepting the adults in their heart in one way or another),as a response to "this isn't as much of a problem with g-witch as it is for okuichi", if your problem is specificallly on the quality of how this is executed then that's another conversation to have (though i still disagree on this being bad at all)

Now I still haven't seen most Gundam-anime, working my way through all of it. But my impression has been so far, that yes, there's often younger characters in important positions (although not as young as the characters in Suisei no Majo and especially this upcoming one), BUT adults are not portrayed as idiots around them.

This is why, for example, I dropped the video game "Persona 5 Royal", because the whole "teenagers good, adults dumb and evil"-concept was appalling. And that's what Suisei no majo did, and that's what the young character designs in this upcoming show make me worry. Meanwhile I watch the first Gundam-anime with Amuro, who himself is an older teenager already, and who is surrounded by adults of all ages. I see Iron-blooded Orphans and the series literally reached a point several times where the children had to get over themselves and accept that they can't do everything without the help of adults.

And I don't know why regular Gundam keeps being infested with this dumb "only children can save the day"-bs, when Gundam already has sub-franchise targeting younger audiences, Gundam Build Fighters. Which I enjoyed, too, btw.. But it makes clear from the get go where the focus lies, so I have no issue with it being kids-focused.

What I want from Gundam is pseudo-realism, plausible writing, and not shying away from serious developments. If Suisei no Majo were proper Gundam, Miorine would have gotten raped at some point, because her beauty was her only real asset, and it would have served as harsh reality check not to underestimate adults. From there, the plot would have proceeded entirely different, with a more humbled Miorine and adults who don't fall for dumb tricks at every corner. But good, serious writing isn't popular anymore, is my impression of current day-anime :(

@Jeevasnt My "problem" is the idea that the franchise's overall interest in this topic somehow justifies it being taken to the extreme in a specific show. Not even talking about the overall performance quality of this show as a whole. This might have worked somewhat in his other shows like Code Geass and Princess Principal, since they were directly about revolution and system change, but here it just comes off as poorly written pandering to a younger audience.

@RobertBobert the thing is that I consider "taking it to the extreme" part of the execution of the idea itself, which im arguing that having the idea itself would be very common in this franchise

@MyllerPhiem honestly if your problem is specifically that kids are able to move without adults then I don't see how g-witch exactly fits into this because Miorine's arc involves her into her needing to accept her father on her business life to grow and have a more successfull company, it's the same as IBO in that regard and miorine is the only character in the show that screams that adults are evil

@Jeevasnt I've seen father-son issues in other Gundams, but they've never been this exaggerated and exploitative. Not to mention, when it was needed, children and adults actually received karmic punishment/reward instead of serving wishes as in G-Witch. Just compare Amuro's mother's arc in 0079 where she breaks down between accepting that Rei must protect his life and the interests of his country and the horror of her only son being violent and killing people with the completely unexplored theme of parental favoritism of the Suletta's mother in G-Wish.

@Jeevasnt Miorine was too perfect. That was the problem. if you take IBO, for example, you have very capable characters, too. But was good a fighter Mikazuki was, he was socially inept. Everyone had severe flaws, many a lot of them because, duh, they were children. And I know you're gonna tell me what flaws Miorine is supposed to have had, but these never mattered enough to not have her dominate everything. She always knew better than all the adults; and the one time she got tricked, she quickly bounced back on top of things. And following her, all the children in the show were just super capable of everything. To the point where you wonder how adults are able to breathe.

Fwiw, one of my favorite anime of all time is "Now and Then, Here and There", a story that really shows how children and adults interact with each other when it's not written by "youth always wins!"-level of writers. I neither like "all adults are dumb" nor "all children are dumb" stories, but Gundam recently veers too much in the direction of one of these.

@RobertBobert I find this reductive because Miorine getting outwitted by others because of her inexperience with politics is absolutely a character flaw and, again, plays into the series’s wider themes.



I feel like this is an unfair comparison because IBO had very different aims, both thematic & practical, in terms of the story it was trying to tell. I say this as someone who likes IBO significantly more than I do G-Witch btw.



@MyllerPhiem

I’m just approaching the series on its own terms & in good faith



Man, you really need to go watch more older Gundam shows. Most of the middle of Gundam ZZ is pretty much the creators screaming “ADULTS FUCKING SUCK!” at you over & over to a degree that makes G-Witch look tame.



Again, it’s a matter of pure thematics. Generational conflict has been at the core of Gundam’s storytelling since its inception, with one of the key themes Yoshiyuki Tomino set out to explore in the original saga of shows in the 70s & 80s being the cycle of hatred & vengeance handed down across the generations and the hope that the next one might be able to break free of those cycles, as well as the ways the potential of new generation is exploited to perpetuate the conflicts of old, hence child soldiers. Regardless of its execution in the individual series, it’s a core part of the franchise’s identity.

It’s also worth saying that there’s more nuance to age demographics than just Kids and Adults. Build Fighters shoots for the prepubescent audience, while one of mainline Gundam’s biggest markets is teenagers, both of which are “kids” according to your classifications, but are very different demographics.

@Jeevasnt I've seen father-son issues in other Gundams, but they've never been this exaggerated and exploitative. Not to mention, when it was needed, children and adults actually received karmic punishment/reward instead of serving wishes as in G-Witch. Just compare Amuro's mother's arc in 0079 where she breaks down between accepting that Rei must protect his life and the interests of his country and the horror of her only son being violent and killing people with the completely unexplored theme of parental favoritism of the Suletta's mother in G-Wish.

@RobertBobert well seeing that you have answered another comment i dont think you will expand on this, so asnwering what it's wrote here, gundam relationships between parents and childrens aren't as exploitative as the parents in g-witch (though tomino HAS written stuff like that in things like brain powerd), as parents done by tomino are often wrote as incompetents or uninterested people, what is exploitative are the relationships between adults and children, which here is being directly tied up to the adults, Suletta fits into a four murasame type of character but as a main protagonist for example. So I really don't see anything off putting for the franchise regarding specifically this.

Though I will also mention that the lack of karmic punishment is one of the strong points on how g-witch is written IMO

the thing Is that prospera getting away with everything she has done works as a conclusion for Suletta's arc where out of selfishness (she herself in the show states that she's being greedy) is obtaining the family she wants, which works because before this the character has never done something that wasn't influenced by other people's desires for her. I think stuff like that has a special appeal that works for me in comparison to something else like having her pay for her crimes