| I have watched some BL anime and I noticed that most of them include at least some form of SA at some point in the series. Even if I leave aside the crappy ones made to please fujoshis like Junjou Romantica, Super Lovers or Sekai Ichi Hatsukoi, there are BL that often get recommended by gay people themselves that still have them like Love Stage, Given (movie) or the currently airing Tosogare Out Focus which Crunchuyoll is doing its best to promote on social media platforms despite the backlash. Even the wikipedia page for BL (for some reason it's clubbed with yaoi) had a subsection about rape in BL. If you are too lazy to open the link then I'll just quote the first para: Rape fantasy is a theme commonly associated with yaoi. Anal sex is understood as a means of expressing commitment to a partner, and in yaoi, the "apparent violence" of rape is transformed into a "measure of passion". Rape scenes in yaoi are rarely presented as crimes with an assaulter and a victim: scenes where a seme rapes an uke are not depicted as symptomatic of the violent desires of the seme, but rather as evidence of the uncontrollable attraction felt by the seme towards the uke. Such scenes are often a plot device used to make the uke see the seme as more than just a good friend, and typically result in the uke falling in love with the seme. Like literally wtf did I just read!? I remember so many people complaining about Hananoi-kun to Koi no Yamai last season just because Hananoi-kun was a bit obsessive and possessive but he didn't even do anything to Hotaru and gave as much time as she wanted and waited till she was ready to kiss and then you have these BLs where the seme loves the uke so much that he'd rape him and no one is complaining!? And all that I've watched so far are series that would have been categorized as shounen-ai earlier, I haven't even entered the yaoi territory. I've seen so many people jump in to defend the SA scene in Tosogare Out Focus this season saying that he only did it because of his fever. Does being sick validate assaulting someone!? Why did SA become such a big part of BL and why are series like SasaMiya and CherryMaho so rare? Is there some unwritten rule written there somewhere that BL authors will die if they don't include at least one instance of SA in their story!? I hope the thread doesn't get locked |
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| tl;dr but in short I think it's because the writers are slow(mentally) and a lot of times most BL are presented as a fetish for fujoshis and less as a romantic relationship between two people who happen to be two men... same thing could be said of dark romance trope where r@pe and assault is often romanticized...it's for the fetish of the rotten crowd. |
 baby, you're the devil i know better than the devil i don't maybe i could stop, but i won't 'cause, baby, you're the devil i know |
| Because the harder it is for someone to find a sex partner, the more likely they want to take the shortcut by using force? |
*kappa* |
| just watched some bl ovas from the 80s that contained sa... it's literally been a trend for decades now. I don't know why it exists, but it needs to stop. it's so freaking weird that the "struggle" and "tension" of a bl plot consistently relies on the mc experiencing sexual assault. it's true that I'm not a big fan of yaoi in the first place, but if yall aren't gonna display genuine lgbtq relationships, can't you get more creative? at the very least? |
can't yuck my yum  |
| A lot of it is trashy and fetishistic, but it's entertainment, so it can be whatever it wants to be. I would estimate it's less common now, though. |
| If you reply back to me and I never respond, I lost interest and don't care. Sorry about that. |
Reply to gumisdivinedogs
BL manga are often written by female writers for a female audience. It's rarely representation for gay/bisexual men or any kind of men who don't identify as straight.
There's a category of female readers known as fujoshis and to them, BLs are nothing more than a way to satisfy their fetish. There's a reason these men are attractive. There's often a very tall, muscular man with a handsome face paired with a shorter, skinny bishonen with a cute baby face.
My point is, it's a fetish. There are also many GLs out there that have the same issue because they're often not written with lesbian, bisexual or any kind of women who don't identify as straight.
Why do people enjoy reading it?
They tell themselves it's only fiction. They just find these guys hot and want to see two men naked, no matter how they got to that point. It's meant to be dreamy and appeal to this very specific crowd.
There's a category of female readers known as fujoshis and to them, BLs are nothing more than a way to satisfy their fetish. There's a reason these men are attractive. There's often a very tall, muscular man with a handsome face paired with a shorter, skinny bishonen with a cute baby face.
My point is, it's a fetish. There are also many GLs out there that have the same issue because they're often not written with lesbian, bisexual or any kind of women who don't identify as straight.
Why do people enjoy reading it?
They tell themselves it's only fiction. They just find these guys hot and want to see two men naked, no matter how they got to that point. It's meant to be dreamy and appeal to this very specific crowd.
| @gumisdivinedogs, you are right, there are female BL writers most of all, but men also write such works, such as Okujima Hiromasa, I like his works so much! As for the question - it is the main subject of many BL works, yes, it is wrong and not good, but when you read more you understand that even you like this process (I am a guy and like BL works). Literally every BL manhwa consists of tons of rapes, every page has a vast details of reproductive organs. Such works are for people who like and enjoy BL, such as me, that is all. |
MemoreJul 20, 2024 2:32 AM
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| Yaoi as a genre from is conception was written by women for women. Non-con or dub-con and sometimes straight up rape fantasy is a really common fetish in general but specially for women. Is really simple math, but I always get annoyed when a yaoi manga or anime gets a bad score here and the comments have people complaining about things like this. Is a staple of the genre don't like it don't read/watch but don't decide which one is better by your moral compass |
| Also important distinction BL and yaoi are not the same thing. Seeing as we are discussing Japanese manga here, we're talking specifically about yaoi which is a genre within the BL classification. This is also why is annoying to me people want LGBT representation in yaoi, this genre is not about actual gay men if you want that go look somewhere else |
| Wouldn't know. I don't watch butt-love shows. Is it really that prevalent? And is it more so than other romance series? |
Reply to FanofAction
Wouldn't know. I don't watch butt-love shows. Is it really that prevalent? And is it more so than other romance series?
| @FanofAction as someone can read any type of love story A lot more than any other romance series. In Japanese mangas I can easily say ever second while in Koreans its looks like 1 in 4. I think it started to get less in Korean because of the backlash that people started to give but still a lot more common that it should be it to romanticized. Even in GL stories is a lot lot less |
| From my understanding, it's supposed to show their repressed homosexuality and attempts to save face by denying their homoerotic desires by saying no, even if internally want to act on them. They don't want to give into a taboo desire and become labelled the other f-word and become ostracized from society. This mirrors how many women feel about their own sexuality, wherein if they give in and have pre-martial sex society will label them as lesser than sl-ts, something not present for straight men who do so. In this lens, oppressed sexual desires intersect and then manifest in separate parallel ways. I agree that there is a male humiliation/corruption kink aspect to it that regular H doesn't usually have, even femdom doesn't capture it the same way since it's meant for a male heterosexual audience and focuses on a man getting off to a woman. Is it a bad kink? Well yes, but r-pe, humiliation and violence against women are ten bajillion times more prevalent in both fiction and real-life so it feels like a small fry in the bucket of "fiction influences reality" issues IMHO. I see Yaoi as filling a niche for socially unacceptable female sexuality, albeit BL isn't always sexual so it's hard to paint the whole genre as such. I'm not trying to run defence so much as trying to explain how I understand it. I barely see any gay guys like it the same way I as a bisexual woman don't gravitate towards GL since I find it overly fluffy, stereotypical and trite (I will enjoy it sometimes but I have to be in the mood for it). In that way, I see them as birds of a feather where unusual male sexuality (gentle and passive) is manifested with women as the subjects (male gaze'd) and unusual female sexuality (dominant and aggressive) are manifested with male subjects (female gaze'd). I want to make it clear that I don't have a problem with BL/GL fans btw, I don't mean those terms in an insulting way like they're usually used. |
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| I'm not sure why this is an issue. Manga and anime are works of fiction. Mangaka and editors decide what content is written, but its audiences whose buying behavior feeds into future trends. While I see some suggesting only fujoshi appreciate this fantasy, I would argue there are fans of all variety (myself included). A common recommendation for fans who like attractive men, but are less interested in sexual content is to explore sports anime such as Haikyuu or Free. Both of which feature predominately male casts, where the central narrative focus is their relationships with each other and their love of the game. Fujoshi (predominately) and fudanshi (less so) are also very good members of the community, as they tend to be consistent paying consumers of manga, and merch. I'm always pleased to see others fall. |
| Yea it's a fair question, but I think it has more to do with anime & Japan's attitudes overall, not just BL. Like years ago I was really raging about a very specific SA scene in Citrus that I couldn't believe people were okay with; I dropped the show because of it, and obviously such scenes exist in hetero pairings; or straightup examples of involuntary love (Redo of Healer) or questionable age gaps... I confess to recommending Love Stage and it's one of my favorite BL titles... I did mention the SA scene in my review (I think) and don't condone it, BUT the problem is- it's not that people want to defend the stuff, it's just that anime is anime and this is nothing new. There's just not a better medium this is what we've chosen to watch, and it comes from a different culture and that has some downsides. I can't answer your question, I don't think anyone but a Japanese really can, but there are BL without SA scenes. ......But like the one I most recently watched, Togainu no Chi, there's EVERY OTHER KIND of assault and no love whatsoever. I guess if you want the perfect romance story, the only way to get it is do what people have for centuries and write your own. Maybe it'll be good. |
Reply to kirA_-_
@FanofAction as someone can read any type of love story A lot more than any other romance series. In Japanese mangas I can easily say ever second while in Koreans its looks like 1 in 4. I think it started to get less in Korean because of the backlash that people started to give but still a lot more common that it should be it to romanticized. Even in GL stories is a lot lot less
| @kirA_-_ Huh. Weird I'm actually curious why it would be the case that this happens more frequently in BL. |
| There is a lot of abuse and harassment in Yuri and hentai too, I think it's a way to make sex appear faster in the work. Maybe it's not even a fetishist but rather laziness or lack of creativity in developing the relationship to have sex. I think. |
NoelleIsSleepy said: just watched some bl ovas from the 80s that contained sa... it's literally been a trend for decades now. I don't know why it exists, but it needs to stop. it's so freaking weird that the "struggle" and "tension" of a bl plot consistently relies on the mc experiencing sexual assault. it's true that I'm not a big fan of yaoi in the first place, but if yall aren't gonna display genuine lgbtq relationships, can't you get more creative? at the very least? This stuff dates back to western exploitations films from the early 70s beyond Japanese Culture. The sad thing is sexual assault and rape in general has been used as entertainment even before the existence of film. It even exists in the Christian Bible of all places. Like others have pointed out, BL is commonly fetishized and ironically BL has always been more popular among young heterosexual female adults and girls in their later teens in Japan. Even my Wife who is Japanese has a collection of old BL Manga from the late 80s to late 90s that she still kept and most of the stuff that I have briefly browsed through in my Wife's collection in the past would often times feature SA at some point in the story. Japanese authors of such fiction must have had some pretty twisted views of homosexual relationships back then long before lgbtq was even coined as an acronym. Though compared to straight out Hentai that right out targets mainly heterosexual males makes BL fiction usually tame in comparison. |
ColourWheelJul 19, 2024 7:52 PM
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BlueMaho said: Why did SA become such a big part of BL and why are series like SasaMiya and CherryMaho so rare? Is there some unwritten rule written there somewhere that BL authors will die if they don't include at least one instance of SA in their story!? Kaze to Ki no Uta is among the 1st BL manga and has a story that revolves entirely around rape, but it is the villains rather than the protagonists who are rapists. How the genre went from that to romanticization of rape, I have no idea. |
| その目だれの目？ |
Reply to ame
tl;dr but in short I think it's because the writers are slow(mentally) and a lot of times most BL are presented as a fetish for fujoshis and less as a romantic relationship between two people who happen to be two men...
same thing could be said of dark romance trope where r@pe and assault is often romanticized...it's for the fetish of the rotten crowd.
same thing could be said of dark romance trope where r@pe and assault is often romanticized...it's for the fetish of the rotten crowd.
| @ame I've always heard fans say that shounen-ai focuses on the romance aspect and yaoi is more about mindless sex kinda like hentai. Also I always see western companies like Crunchyroll write articles about such anime being LGBT representation specially during pride month so I expect better content. How common are these dark romances outside of hentai? I don't remember coming across such series and usually when I do they have bad rep like Redo of Healer. The only anime I've watched so far with rape was one of the Kara no Kyoukai movies and it was depicted as something negative, it was rape that triggered the girl to go on murder spree to kill the guys who violated her. |
|
| As a long time Yaoi fan, I didn´t mind it at first, since I was a dumb teenager/young adult. But as time went by, I noticed how cliché and many times disturbing such scenes could be. Even in my fave anime like Gravitation, Sukisho and Love Stage it happens. I´d say it´s most likely because of the female (with a few males) audience´s closet fetishes, that whether you like or not, they sell much better than just a wholesome romance. But not gonna lie, that´s one of the reasons I stopped watching Yaoi anime and now I just Slash characters I like. |
| "Could you not talk with me? I'm busy breathing." |
| Cuz the ppl who write them use the BL plot as a simple foundation for their fetishes. Any other excuse about it is just coping. |
 |
| Probably because that's what the audience wants, I guess. |
Reply to Multilynx
As a gay guy, I enjoy BL content. There isn’t really anything else that I can read or watch with queer guys in it. As has been said, these stories are fiction and I would never expect (or condone) someone to act like that in real life.
| @Multilynx, I also like BL works. But there are stories which are based on real life, I have read such works. |
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Reply to ToumaTachibana
Fudanshi here. The reason is simple: many people including me like things in fiction like SA (I prefer called it rape) but we wouldn't support or act in real life since its just disturbing, wrong and illegal, it's the same reasoning of why people who play video games which include violence or killing people but they don't support or do such things in real life.
Even if in fiction I like such content, it doesn't mean I don't or cannot enjoy BL without such elements. It depends of what I want to read.
About some BL readers talking trash about the same or similar content they consume in non-BL series, they are just a bunch of bad people who make fujoshis and fudanshi look bad. I remember this fujo who claimed lolicon is "pedophilia" and made a whole drama (support banning it, etc) about it but she was fetishizing me and other dude (she knows both of us are gay) saying things like who was the uke in the relationship for example. Completely disrespectful. The worst thing this fujo is way older than us lol.
Even if in fiction I like such content, it doesn't mean I don't or cannot enjoy BL without such elements. It depends of what I want to read.
About some BL readers talking trash about the same or similar content they consume in non-BL series, they are just a bunch of bad people who make fujoshis and fudanshi look bad. I remember this fujo who claimed lolicon is "pedophilia" and made a whole drama (support banning it, etc) about it but she was fetishizing me and other dude (she knows both of us are gay) saying things like who was the uke in the relationship for example. Completely disrespectful. The worst thing this fujo is way older than us lol.
| @Nurguburu it truly is as simple as: this is fiction, I don't know why people have such hang ups about this. This genre is about fantasy not representation, I've never met anyone in real life that loved morally grey or corrupt fiction works and was also actually a very bad person, the world doesn't work like that is not that simple. |
Reply to BlueMaho
@ame I've always heard fans say that shounen-ai focuses on the romance aspect and yaoi is more about mindless sex kinda like hentai. Also I always see western companies like Crunchyroll write articles about such anime being LGBT representation specially during pride month so I expect better content.
How common are these dark romances outside of hentai? I don't remember coming across such series and usually when I do they have bad rep like Redo of Healer. The only anime I've watched so far with rape was one of the Kara no Kyoukai movies and it was depicted as something negative, it was rape that triggered the girl to go on murder spree to kill the guys who violated her.
How common are these dark romances outside of hentai? I don't remember coming across such series and usually when I do they have bad rep like Redo of Healer. The only anime I've watched so far with rape was one of the Kara no Kyoukai movies and it was depicted as something negative, it was rape that triggered the girl to go on murder spree to kill the guys who violated her.
| @BlueMaho western companies should 100% not do that, is a cultural difference type of thing just like when they call otokonoko trans. Is not the same thing,yuri and yaoi are not lgbt, they are not representation they are a fantasy. Some things seem to get lost in translation feels like I just wished people wouldn't judge these works so harshly just because of their western lense |
Reply to TheDarkLordOtaku
I'm not sure why this is an issue. Manga and anime are works of fiction. Mangaka and editors decide what content is written, but its audiences whose buying behavior feeds into future trends.
While I see some suggesting only fujoshi appreciate this fantasy, I would argue there are fans of all variety (myself included). A common recommendation for fans who like attractive men, but are less interested in sexual content is to explore sports anime such as Haikyuu or Free. Both of which feature predominately male casts, where the central narrative focus is their relationships with each other and their love of the game.
Fujoshi (predominately) and fudanshi (less so) are also very good members of the community, as they tend to be consistent paying consumers of manga, and merch. I'm always pleased to see others fall.
While I see some suggesting only fujoshi appreciate this fantasy, I would argue there are fans of all variety (myself included). A common recommendation for fans who like attractive men, but are less interested in sexual content is to explore sports anime such as Haikyuu or Free. Both of which feature predominately male casts, where the central narrative focus is their relationships with each other and their love of the game.
Fujoshi (predominately) and fudanshi (less so) are also very good members of the community, as they tend to be consistent paying consumers of manga, and merch. I'm always pleased to see others fall.
| @TheDarkLordOtaku is really sad to see how fujoshi and fudanshi have always been treated, it just makes the hobby appear more sleazy than it actually is, not even hentai fans get the same amount of scrutiny (ahegao hoodies anyone?). Is already so difficult to get yaoi manga outside Japan (you basically live on scanlations and paying for fanart), don't get me started on merch, anime or games, these kind of treatment only makes access harder because of bad judgments |
Reply to B707
@TheDarkLordOtaku is really sad to see how fujoshi and fudanshi have always been treated, it just makes the hobby appear more sleazy than it actually is, not even hentai fans get the same amount of scrutiny (ahegao hoodies anyone?). Is already so difficult to get yaoi manga outside Japan (you basically live on scanlations and paying for fanart), don't get me started on merch, anime or games, these kind of treatment only makes access harder because of bad judgments
| @B707 It was really nice to see in Akihabara that there were entire floors of manga buildings dedicated to BL and yaoi. It felt like the shopping experience was a lot nicer for fujoshi. It's a shame there isn't a more established (public) market in the west for fans of the genre. |
Reply to TheDarkLordOtaku
@B707 It was really nice to see in Akihabara that there were entire floors of manga buildings dedicated to BL and yaoi. It felt like the shopping experience was a lot nicer for fujoshi.
It's a shame there isn't a more established (public) market in the west for fans of the genre.
It's a shame there isn't a more established (public) market in the west for fans of the genre.
| @TheDarkLordOtaku 100% agree, I'll have to finally learn Japanese only to have a better access to the genre it feels like. I don't think western morals will be open to a lot of the more outlandish things in otaku and Japanese culture as a whole so I've abandoned all hope in that front. The kicker is seeing them defending diversity and outside cultures at the same time they judge poorly anything they deem too much. I just really hope the western market won't change production in Japan, but I believe the result will be only westernized works being translated. |
| I can't speak for all people who enjoy it, but I can talk from personal experience as someone who was a little more reserved/lacked confidence when I was younger. I, like most guys, was interested in sex but was way too shy and had very little self-confidence, and didn't think anyone would be interested in me, so I would never make any kind of move, and even if someone came on to me, I would either be too dense to realize, or to scared to accept. So, the idea of it being "forced" on me was quite appealing. It was something I wanted, but something I was too scared to go out and get, so having the choice taken away from me seemed preferable. Not sure if that plays into it for other people, and why they enjoy it so much, maybe they share similar feelings, and so they find SA "romantic." The idea of someone forcing themselves on you, when you yourself have no confidence in your own body/looks etc. is them basically saying they do find you interesting, or attractive, or worth their time, it's kind of a twisted form of self-confidence. I'm sure there are many other perspectives and reasons people enjoy it, but I'm sure this accounts for at least a small part of its fans. |
| Unlike what the some people want you to believe, girls thinking rape is hot is more common than men thinking rape is hot. That's why. |
| Also available at: YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK8spdL1M_J-z0vO2C7jPLw Second Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@AshPolygonsDo/videos Twitter: https://x.com/APolygons2 Backloggd: https://backloggd.com/games/lib/rating?page=8 IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/user/ur107632777/?ref_=uspf_nv_profile |
APolygons2 said: unless you have a research to back that up please do not say that, a small minority of fucked up people (let it be women or men) doesnt give anyone the right to say such thing...rape is a heinous crime girls thinking rape is hot is more common than men thinking rape is hot. |
baby, you're the devil i know better than the devil i don't maybe i could stop, but i won't 'cause, baby, you're the devil i know |
Reply to ame
APolygons2 said:
girls thinking rape is hot is more common than men thinking rape is hot.
unless you have a research to back that up please do not say that, a small minority of fucked up people (let it be women or men) doesnt give anyone the right to say such thing...rape is a heinous crime girls thinking rape is hot is more common than men thinking rape is hot.
| @ame Look at any r34 that has that sort of thing and you see a TON of "I wish I was her"s. You can also look at the most popular tags or genres when it comes to nsfw media or books aimed at woman. also, yes rape is bad, what a hot take. but there is a difference between porn and reality. If that wasn't the case, judging by every single nsfw website, everyone wants to fuck their family memebers. and you have to be crazy to think thats actually the case. |
| Also available at: YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK8spdL1M_J-z0vO2C7jPLw Second Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@AshPolygonsDo/videos Twitter: https://x.com/APolygons2 Backloggd: https://backloggd.com/games/lib/rating?page=8 IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/user/ur107632777/?ref_=uspf_nv_profile |
Jackson1333 said: I can't speak for all people who enjoy it, but I can talk from personal experience as someone who was a little more reserved/lacked confidence when I was younger. I, like most guys, was interested in sex but was way too shy and had very little self-confidence, and didn't think anyone would be interested in me, so I would never make any kind of move, and even if someone came on to me, I would either be too dense to realize, or to scared to accept. So, the idea of it being "forced" on me was quite appealing. It was something I wanted, but something I was too scared to go out and get, so having the choice taken away from me seemed preferable. Not sure if that plays into it for other people, and why they enjoy it so much, maybe they share similar feelings, and so they find SA "romantic." The idea of someone forcing themselves on you, when you yourself have no confidence in your own body/looks etc. is them basically saying they do find you interesting, or attractive, or worth their time, it's kind of a twisted form of self-confidence. I'm sure there are many other perspectives and reasons people enjoy it, but I'm sure this accounts for at least a small part of its fans. I like this explanation :) and it makes a lot of sense. I can find such forced situations to be both hot and disturbing, sometimes at the same time lol depending on who is doing it, why, the overall atmosphere etc. It's all situational. Why can it look hot to me? I don't know. I have a thing for "rough action" in general, so maybe things like rape invoke that part in me somehow. Some of the BL examples people define as "assault" are also not something I'd qualify as such. I even remember joking in some other topic about saying "please stop" to actual guys, which is exactly how it sometime happens in BL lol it was just nervousness, obviously, but if they actually stopped, then it'd be nervousness and awkwardness. No one would "rape" me by continuing - sometimes things just need to get going for the nervousness to fade, before it gets more comfortable. Quite a few situations in BL are like that too, so it's hard to view them as "assault". |
I always see LGBT people backing up both BL and GL, just shows where the come from. I mean remember these gay rights activists? These woke people also push for books containing gay porn in children's libraries, if children frow up reading that shit it's no wonder they consider rape as normal in fiction. |
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