should the english translation use they and them as pronouns if the anime characters gender is ambiguous?
should the english translation use they and them as pronouns if the anime characters gender is ambiguous?
| if it makes the most sense I guess you can use singular they in english, that was not created by non binary people |
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| how can gender for anime characters be ambiguous? |
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| No, why would they. I personally find they/ them much more ambiguous for me to read. |
deg said: Catalano said: how can gender for anime characters be ambiguous? you got land of lustrous in your sig thats one answer not really, the gems don't have gender cause they aren't human, they don't have sex, a character there refers to another with "onii-chan", don't shove your stupid ideas in houseki |
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| And I still ain't changing my view on it Zettaiken said: [...] keep the western problem in west, it is tiring of this whole bullshit of gender neutrality [...] or whatever else idea they give |
Zettaiken said: And I still ain't changing my view on it Zettaiken said: [...] keep the western problem in west, it is tiring of this whole bullshit of gender neutrality [...] or whatever else idea they give I agree that we should not push western "ideals", "drame" polictics and what not for crap onto Anime. It spoils the fun in watching Anime, for me at least. |
deg said: Catalano said: not really, the gems don't have gender cause they aren't human, they don't have sex, a character there refers to another with "onii-chan", don't shove your stupid ideas in houseki so would you rather refer to them as "it" to objectify them as rocks more dude, come on, stop changing the subject, they should translate how they say it in japanese, with masculine or feminine onii-chan is big brother omae is you kimi is you |
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deg said: ok round 2 of the thread i made earlier https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=2042555 because i fuck up the phrasing or what i meant i voted yes and a vote for no means there are only 2 genders for them i guess The current framing of the question doesn't change my stance. I voted no. It's not just a translators job to translate from JPN > ENG, JPN > ESP, JPN > DEU, JPN > FR, and etc; it's also to reproduce dialogue and text in a manner that makes sense in whatever language something is being localized to. When it comes to pronouns, that should be based on the context and intention within the source material. However, based on the framing of your question, the source material 'could' dictate the usage of gender neutral pronouns. |
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| In my mere opinion, yes. (limit characters) |
| Things would be so much simpler if English had a true gender neutral singular 3. person pronoun, and "you" wasn't both singular and plural... |
| I answered Idk. The character I immediately think of in this situation is Crona from Soul Eater. I don't think just assuming a pronoun is the correct stance to take, but yeah, they/them is weird to say. |
| Obviously this was in response to the Najimi thread. Which, my stance on that character is that Najimi is designed to be annoying and inconsistent on gender, for laughs, and not really meant to be taken seriously. So referring to Najimi as "they" would defeat the purpose of the character entirely. Characters aren't usually just androgynous without a reason for it, and characters will interact in kind based on what gender the character presents themselves. So in that case, it comes down to the author's intent, and should not be meddled with by third parties. |
 This ground is soiled by those before me and their lies. I dare not look up for on me I feel their eyes |
| Still the same as my previous reply: Well the Japanese isn't really or isn't even gender neutral. You have 'kare' which means him and 'kanojo' which means her. When it is gender neutral, they use 'koitsu' which means this person, or 'kono hito/kata' which also means this person. I don't think we see that many anime characters whose gender is unknown unless it's a joke. Also, there is no such thing as non binary, be it anime characters or real people. |
"Nobody could laugh at someone who's trying their hardest" -Machio- |
Catalano said: How would the translation look though? If I don't know how to refer to someone I'm using they/them.dude, come on, stop changing the subject, they should translate how they say it in japanese, with masculine or feminine onii-chan is big brother omae is you kimi is you edit- that was stupid, I somehow thought you were implying to use the Japanese terms |
cyandaqilSep 5, 2022 7:10 PM
Teach a man to cook, and he can’t fish. But teach a man to fish, and he feeds himself and cooks. -👧 ( ° ω ˣ ) |
| i think that there are many times when they/them pronouns are appropriate. if a character is nonbinary, if their gender is purposefully ambiguous, or if revealing their gender would be a spoiler (or otherwise hurt the flow of the story or confuse the audience), then it makes sense. in the case of Najimi, i've always thought it makes the most sense to alternate between she/he/they, since they use their gender ambiguity to fuck with people. in the case of characters like Crona, using anything other than they/them doesn't make sense. their gender is unknown, and the text very deliberately avoids gendering them. Kino is another example of a nonbinary character, as they blatantly reject being called both "boy" and "girl," instead saying "Kino is Kino." it would be weird to translate in such a way that Kino is always referred to with she/her pronouns, but then have her directly state that she's not a girl. to take it one more step further, there is a character that is directly and openly nonbinary in "Love Me for Who I Am" by Konayama Kata. it would be an absolutely stupid translation choice to use any gendered pronoun for this character, Mogumo, because they actively assert their nonbinary identity throughout the manga. literally in the first chapter they shout "i'm not a boy, and i'm not a girl!" it's doubly useful when a character's gender is meant to be a secret or surprise. like, if you have a villain who's supposed to remain shrouded in mystery for a while, using they/them pronouns is a grammatically coherent way to obscure the character's true gender until the reveal. it has a lot of good uses, especially in an age where we're getting more and more trans representation in anime. |
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| Number in Japanese is also ambiguous most of the time and deduced from context, but translations naturally use plurals when required. (The difference is that there is no number equality fad in the West to argue about this.) Only if there is an intentional use of non-gendered expressions in the original that make sense in context (e.g. a character being unable to tell the gender of another from the language used) should the translation attempt something similar. This is Translation 101. And yes, I work as a translator. But I guess this is the hundredth time this same argument has been made in these threads. |
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_FRB_ said: if it makes the most sense I guess you can use singular they in english, that was not created by non binary people This is true, but most people who are against using those pronouns don't seem to know this, and think they only apply if there's multiple people. Not that I can fault people whose first language isn't English. |
| As a NB speaking. It depends on the character; it's human nature to assume a gender. Granted in ambiguous is the point of the writing then maybe? Like most translations it's a case to case. |
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