86--EIGHTY-SIX (light novel)
| Is this just a subtle way to promote Muv luv alternative? The whole motive of the 86 and takeru to take the mission is already a night and day difference. Also I thought muv luv alternative was mid while 86 is better. If you can't enjoy this show that on you. Don't blame it on "plagiarism". |
Thai777Nov 23, 2021 11:20 AM
Deloking said: Just Finished Muv-Luv Alternative VN 2 weeks ago, one of the most heart touching experience I had with a Japanese media. I had noticed that this last narrative arc has a lot of similarity with one of the most important arcs in Alternative : Cherry blossoms operation. At first I thought was just a sane inspiration, but after the last episode I don't know more what to Think, they copied also some dialogues lines, over THE WHOLE OPERATION. Tell me what you think about , maybe I'm a little bit biased on the topic so I care to hear the opinions of more people. Eh I mean I love Muv and need to watch 86 eventually, but mecha as a whole has always been a genre that's semi plagarized off of each other. Series like Evangelion and Gurren Lagann are massive homages to older mecha media. It's fine though, good work inspires other good work that follows it. Just the nature of any type of storytelling. |
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| I will read MLA eventually, but unfortunately I'll have to read 50 hours of SOL romcom, which sounds pretty blegh in VN form. Also, the art has the nasty case of the uglies. |
teofilusSW said: In Japanese pop culture, there must be various similarities in ideas and creative paths shared by various authors, considering that they live in the same way of thinking because they live in the same environment (they live in the same country, namely Japan with various trinkets of life). At least this is not like the case of the isekai genre works or the "unique case of IDOLY PRIDE vs SELECTION PROJECT" which is currently being controversial in Japan, especially among fans of the idol genre. Wait what's controversial with the whole 2 idol anime thing? Not familiar with what you're talking about. |
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teofilusSW said: Pyro81300 said: Wait what's controversial with the whole 2 idol anime thing? Not familiar with what you're talking about. It's actually a controversial thing in Japan now, especially on Twitter, and for some international idol anime fans, when you basically get the same story for 2 idol animes in only less than a year, with really same protagonists along with the characteristics, even the date of birth. just only having each different name, Kawasaki Sakura-Nagase Kotono-Nagase Mana for Idoly Pride and Miyama Suzune-Hananoi Rena-Amazawa Akari for Selection Project). There is also a specific thread on MAL which is talking about this: https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1972032 Oh huh, I see ty for the reply. |
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removed-user said: Shishou_23 said: Tfw you have to throw labels at others and put words in their mouths to validate your opinion. It’s okay OP. Maybe one day, Muv-Luv will get an adaptation that is of a high quality like 86. Until then, what can I say, you can cope I guess by asserting dominance over other shows if it makes you feel better. Like you said, that's my opinion, but I'm not that wrong. There are more than 1500 mecha series, few people have seen 10 of them. Obviously, the greater your familiarity with the genre, the more a serie like 86 becomes average It doesnt mean anything really, ive seen alot of mecha anime but I still love 86 |
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Gabriel_Gaming said: Something I want to mention about something I have seen again and again, also in this thread, is the claim that 86 "copied" aot especially in relation to its use of racism as a theme. This is compleatly impossible since 86 was submitted to the 24th Dengeki Novel Prize, which happend sometime in june 2016 (https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/feature/2018-06-06/the-best-light-novels-not-yet-in-english/.132523) while AOT didnt start with its whole Marley buisness until October 2016 (https://attackontitan.fandom.com/wiki/That_Day_(Chapter_86)). Funny that its chapter 86 in which Marley got revealed. B-b-b-b-b-but Aot has Walls to protect the main country of the early seasons and so does San Magnolia. This is clear plagiarism!!!. You know, if OP claimed that Asato "plagiarized" the ODM gear from AoT for the Feldreß's movement then I could see some logic in their words. But even if it was true, mechas with ODM gear are so fucking cool, so who the fuck cares? |
Gabriel_Gaming said: You joke about that but some people actually do think that AoT used that concept first.ssjokg said: B-b-b-b-b-but Aot has Walls to protect the main country of the early seasons and so does San Magnolia. This is clear plagiarism!!!. You know, if OP claimed that Asato "plagiarized" the ODM gear from AoT for the Feldreß's movement then I could see some logic in their words. But even if it was true, mechas with ODM gear are so fucking cool, so who the fuck cares? Yea I know AOT basically invented the concept of walls and fortification in general. Sun Tzu was a big Isayama fan after all. |
MyOwnGod said: UTMAN said: I hope you know how "evidence" works in any civilized country. All i saw in this topic is brainless accusation and nothing else. Why don't you guys put some evidence forward like quotes or screenshots from plagarized chapter parts, or dialogues from both books and say which sentences are direct copies of another. Until you do this, it's just shit talking. Why would anyone do all of this if someone who's interested enough to know if those accusations are true or not can just read MLA and decide for himself? It's objectively the most acclaimed visual novel, aka FMA:B of the visual novel media. There's no point in arguing with people who don't know what they are talking about. It's like trying to prove something to flat-earthers or creationists. Post proof. I don't even get the thread to start with. What can you even compare with MLA and 86 right now? Not all the episodes of 86 are out so the only thing you can compare is the 2 operations general guideline. Isn't the most important thing how the operation will actually go? The operation isn't even plagiarized, they are just vaguely similar in the sense that there is a diversion and a fall off but that not even plagiarism. Furthermore with this kind of answer, it proves that like I thought, this is just a way to promote Muv-luv alternative to people since it is necessary for you to have read it to argue about it apparently. Now, I did read it, can I get proof? I don't have the VN with me anymore so I'm counting on you guys. You can spoiler it if you deem it necessary. |
Thai777Dec 2, 2021 5:46 AM
MyOwnGod said: So if 86 literally "borrowed" a whole story arc from MLA and even copied some of the dialogues then it's a definition of plagiarism. Only someone who've read both 86 and MLA can judge if how far this is to the truth. And so far those who've read/watched both say that this is blatant copy-pasting and the ones who disprove it haven't read MLA so they have no qualifications to argue. I've read Muvluv trilogy and finished reading 86 novels until recent volume, and what the OP accused for plagiarism is only boils down to "every army works together to create distraction so the MC team can fight the enemy boss unobstructed", which is not unique to Muvluv. Mass Effect 3 final mission used the same strategy, also LoTR3 final battle. I'm also pretty sure many war stories used this strategy as well, but I can't remember the detail that well to be used as an example. Deloking said: Shishou_23 said: It’s a recurrent military tactic in several media outlets to lure the enemies from their positions to create vulnerabilities and gaps. What even. Muv-luv was not first, neither is 86, but it doesn’t matter. I thought so until the last episode, When I saw the XG-70 wannabe I fucking slapped About the plane, I've read the novel so I can say for sure that this plane don't have any weapons on board, and even if it has because for some stupid reason the anime needed to add them, it won't be used because . So to compare it with XG70, which is basically a floating fortress with a Big Faqing Laser Gun and a goddamn barrier, and the main purpose in the narrative was the main weapon for defeating the boss, is too far fetched to say the least. But if you're still not convinced, just wait until the next episode and you'll see. |
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MyOwnGod said: Udin554 said: I've read Muvluv trilogy and finished reading 86 novels until recent volume, and what the OP accused for plagiarism is only boils down to "every army works together to create distraction so the MC team can fight the enemy boss unobstructed", which is not unique to Muvluv. Well, OP said that it copies the arc up to some dialogues. If actual events also repeat, i.e. distracting characters die in a similar order, then it's what you call copy-pasting. Hmm, no. The similarities between this arc and the arc in Muvluv was only just that, so it's hardly a plagiarism. Here, let me give you a brief summary of both arc, spoiler just in case. You can judge by yourself if this is really a plagiarism or not. What OP claims this arc plagiarize is the Cherry Blossom arc, which is: while this arc up until the last episode is basically: That's the gist of it. The OP claims that this arc copies the whole operation of the Cherry Blossom arc in Muvluv, while this anime up to this point only shows the start of this arc, which as I already elaborate in the spoiler. So the similarities only boils down to what I said before. I think the OP also thought so, as seen with their post here: Deloking said: Gabriel_Gaming said: It’s a recurrent military tactic in several media outlets to lure the enemies from their positions to create vulnerabilities and gaps. What even. Muv-luv was not first, neither is 86, but it doesn’t matter. I thought so until the last episode, When I saw the XG-70 wannabe I fucking slapped The OP said the show copied the XG70, which I think they meant the Nachzehrer. Again, not a plagiarism in the slightest, because: For more info, here's the XG70: https://muvluv.fandom.com/wiki/XG-70_Susanoo and here's the Nachzerer: https://86-eighty-six.fandom.com/wiki/XC-1_Nachzehrer Both has a totally different purpose in the narrative, so if that's still counts as plagiarism, well... About the dialogue, I can't exactly see what dialogue the OP claims this show copies from Operation Cherry Blossom, other than your typical military motivational speech from the leader of the nation/coalition/army/etc, or the standard "don't die/you must survive" dialogue, which is pretty much a norm in this type of story. Maybe until the OP elaborate more specifically what dialogue they thought was copied, this is the only things I can think of. So, yeah. I still think calling this arc a plagiarism of Muvluv is too far fetched, to say the least. EDIT: I can elaborate more as to what happened in the novel after the last episode, but that's beside the point because the OP's knowledge only from the anime, and what the anime has shown was only what I said above. |
Udin554Dec 2, 2021 11:01 PM
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Deloking said: Just Finished Muv-Luv Alternative VN 2 weeks ago, one of the most heart touching experience I had with a Japanese media. I had noticed that this last narrative arc has a lot of similarity with one of the most important arcs in Alternative : Cherry blossoms operation. At first I thought was just a sane inspiration, but after the last episode I don't know more what to Think, they copied also some dialogues lines, over THE WHOLE OPERATION. Tell me what you think about , maybe I'm a little bit biased on the topic so I care to hear the opinions of more people. How can a story be a copy when its story is miles better than its inspiration? Why is it every time I speak to a muv luv fan, they give me some BS about plagiarism or doing its "themes better" than the fiction its being compared to? MLA is pure and utter garbage. MLA tried being a Rom Com, a Coming of Age story and War Epic. And it did all three of those stories poorly. Everything in MLA was forced and unnatural such as Takeru's PTSD, beta rape scenes, his love for sumika, the political story in MLA was forced and added nothing to the plot, MLA underutilizes its characters like Sagiri and emperess yuuhi, the chomp scene was just shock value, everyone dying near the end, hayase, suzumiya, captain, etc were all cheap and had barely any screen time for emotional connections, etc. 86 has considerably better world building, Lena is a much more natural byproduct of her environment, unlike the self insert Shirogane Takeru. The relationship between Lena and Shin is natural, unlike Sumika x Takeru. MLA is one of the most mediocre visual novels i will ever read. Not even close to its peers such as Muramasa and Baldr Sky, let alone 86. Thigh_Tide said: Just like Tolkien said, the shadow can only mock, it cannot make. I mean, Asato Asato can't do characters, or plot, or theme, of course that extends to having ideas too. Yoshimune cant do characters, nor plot and his world building is shit in MLA. He writes generic harem rom coms that dont fit the narrative, and he writes edgy tentacle rape scenes that dont add anything to the story. His harem character are awful, kei, sakaki, marimo, meiya, sumika and tamse are all generic and badly written characters. The worst one is Takeru, who plays the role of a solder stricken with PTSD horribly, he's outclassed by Shinei Nouzen, Shirou Emiya and Hibiki Tatsunami in the PTSD department, because they are naturals. Takeru is a horribly inconsistent character. And MLA has no consistent themes, it wants to be a rom-com, coming of age and epic war story even though it fails to balance it out, and build on it. Everything just comes out of nowhere. Not to mention the way MLA conveys dialogue is horrible, the metaphors they come up to dumb down the technobabble is ineffective and unnecessary, it fails to create solid comparisons everytime yuuko brings up a discussion relating to its in-universe science. The dialogue is just bloated, and bad. Eighty Six handles all of this with care instead. Asato relies heavily on characterization and advancement of technology (way better than total eclipse). The operations and dialogue is handled with care and is presented well. Deloking said: CovilEvil said: Looks like a plagiarism of Code Geass Akito the exiled too. There are elements from Gundam IBO and Valkyria 3 as well... I particularly find 86 overrated because I've seen those animes which makes 86 seem redundant and even boring sometimes because it became predicable, but anyone who has never seen then must think 86 is super innovative. What bothers me the most in 86 is the narrative of the white savior, very common in Hollywood when it comes to storyes about racism, being racist. IMHO the racism in 86 is pictured in a very poor way. It lacks of social and storical elements, the author should take on example what Isayama did with the Eldians Why would asato learn anything from Hajime, "I dont want any other man to love mikasa" Isayama? Makes no sense. Isayama is a hack and cant write for shit. 86 is a more in depth version of IBO, done way better, and the politics are considerably better than Aot, Code Geass and Chapter 6 MLA, all of which handled politics badly unlike 86. If anything, Sunrise, Yoshimune and Isayama should LEARN from Asato (author of 86) Deloking said: Gabriel_Gaming said: Even Cherry blossom and by extension the whole alternative 4 stuff isnt original. Charging the enyemys base for a last chance at victory is such a general concept that claiming plagarism is bullshit. Also i would like to see some proof for your "copied dialoge lines" because I also read muvluv (although its been some time) and didnt notice anything. >Charging the enemy base with a sofisticated airplane while all Humas nations attacks the legion to bait them while the MCs are in charge of Main target's destruction. This entire operation is premised by the chiefs Briefing on Legion's warfare that has many lines copied by Isumi's briefings Except Isumi was a generic plot device that added nothing to the story. Whereas 86 builds on its impactful moments. Deloking said: Gabriel_Gaming said: So you admit that its not plagarism? No The author copied Cherry Blossom and I'm pretty sure about that. You can nitpick the details but it's the same thing in so many aspects. That's not a negative Thing forse, is a good thing that the author took inspiration from MLA (and SNK) but it's written way worse. I can't rid the feeling that I'm watching a cheap copy paste of various good shows LOL no, MLA and AOT are written horribly, they have some of the worst endings in the history of fiction. Their politics and psychology are very surface level. 86 and TDA go much deeper into it. |
| @Sb98 hold that thought for a second, while I do think MLA is horrible, alongside MLE and MLU being horrible as well, I still think the ML franchise still has something to offer. The Day After, Schwarzesmarken and Total Eclipse are entries worth looking into. Muv-Luv Resonative is the sequel to The Day After and Muv-Luv Integrate is a sequel to MLA, though MLR and MLI havent released yet, I have no doubt they are going to be really good, especially MLR. I just recently played The Day After and dear god, it's miles above MLA, way above, and it's not even close. Total Eclipse is also good too, due to its complex MC, yuuya bridges, who comes off as an asshole but an interesting one, however the ending is horrible and its VN isnt going to release soon until winter 2022. The Day After also has an interesting MC, Hibiki Tatsunami and he has a chance to be as complex and developed as Shirou Emiya from FSN and Amuro Ray from Gundam, which is a killer combo in my eyes. They're also some of my favourite characters, I hope MLR does Hibiki justice. Schwarzesmarken have the most interesting Heroines, the MC, he's kinda eh, but still ok, better than takeru atleast. It hasnt been translated yet nor are the LNs. Unfortunately though, you'll have to complete the main trilogy before you can get into these entries. MLE, MLU and MLA, is the main trilogy. And this is the part of of the ML franchise that I despise. Is it worth playing 100 hours of the main trilogy to get into the good VNs? I would say either way is fine, its difficult because 100 hours is so long, but who knows maybe youll like the main trilogy, since most people do. Also keep in mind I am strict rater, my MAL average is like a 3.9 and my VNDB average is like a 4.8, both very low marks. here are my personal ratings for each entry ive played MLE 2/10 MLU 2/10 MLA 3/10 Total Eclipse Anime 7/10 Schwarzemarken Anime 7/10 The Day After 8.5/10 The other VNs are not released or translated yet. |
DeltaF-xDec 4, 2021 12:49 AM
DeltaF-x said: Wasnt Schwarzesmarken the pretty trashy show where the dude fucks his own sister and then executes her?@Sb98 hold that thought for a second, while I do think MLA is horrible, alongside MLE and MLU being horrible as well, I still think the ML franchise still has something to offer. The Day After, Schwarzesmarken and Total Eclipse are entries worth looking into. Muv-Luv Resonative is the sequel to The Day After and Muv-Luv Integrate is a sequel to MLA, though MLR and MLI havent released yet, I have no doubt they are going to be really good, especially MLR. I just recently played The Day After and dear god, it's miles above MLA, way above, and it's not even close. Total Eclipse is also good too, due to its complex MC, yuuya bridges, who comes off as an asshole but an interesting one, however the ending is horrible and its VN isnt going to release soon until winter 2022. The Day After also has an interesting MC, Hibiki Tatsunami and he has a chance to be as complex and developed as Shirou Emiya from FSN and Amuro Ray from Gundam, which is a killer combo in my eyes. They're also some of my favourite characters, I hope MLR does Hibiki justice. Schwarzesmarken have the most interesting Heroines, the MC, he's kinda eh, but still ok, better than takeru atleast. It hasnt been translated yet nor are the LNs. Unfortunately though, you'll have to complete the main trilogy before you can get into these entries. MLE, MLU and MLA, is the main trilogy. And this is the part of of the ML franchise that I despise. Is it worth playing 100 hours of the main trilogy to get into the good VNs? I would say either way is fine, its difficult because 100 hours is so long, but who knows maybe youll like the main trilogy, since most people do. Also keep in mind I am strict rater, my MAL average is like a 3.9 and my VNDB average is like a 4.8, both very low marks. here are my personal ratings for each entry ive played MLE 2/10 MLU 2/10 MLA 3/10 Total Eclipse Anime 7/10 Schwarzemarken Anime 7/10 The Day After 8.5/10 The other VNs are not released or translated yet. Lets all pray one day the MuvLuv franchise gets an anime adaption half as good as 86 |
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