Would Isekai series be better if there weren't overpowered MC or harems?

DrSexy said:
Isekai is mostly written as wish fulfillment for socially inept otakus which have no life experience apart from playing videogames. Getting rid of those elements would kill the main appeal of the genre, as others said if you remove those elements might as well make a normal fantasy story

Fario-P said:
I don't think an isekai would automatically be better by not including those tropes. Sure, excluding some of it might make an isekai series a bit less clichéd in concept, and sure, I think we all agree that this genre is beyond copypaste quality by now, so some less clichés would be more interesting to see... but as with pretty much everything, lots of crazy ideas for characters, story, and setting, and less clichés for an isekai premise won't quite work without proper execution—as alshu said.

Besides, it might be possible for an isekai to work even with a few clichés around. You could argue that the main trio of Magic Knight Rayearth are already overpowered MCs, especially since Hikaru somehow used her magic almost instantly without realizing how she actually did it, and the other two MCs literally poke fun at the fact that Cephiro is practically like a typical JRPG world. But this series come out before most well-known isekai these days and their clichés did, and the story's trio of girls are honestly still pretty fun characters to follow; even with what I just said about Hikaru, each of these three girls still have to grow and learn how to properly use their powers, so they don't feel that OP to me.

I think the problem with the genre at this point is that the creators behind these things are just lazy and don't want to bother putting at least 10 minutes (I'd say a day but come on, 10 minutes at the bare minimum PLEASE) worth of thought into any of it. Isekai is such a fun genre/trope to think about working with (or just as a casual writing prompt to mess around and experiment with your skills) if you really think about the possibilities of what kinds of other worlds could exist out there. What would the world look like? What kinds of people? What kinds of cultures and holidays? What are some stupid unimaginable cartoon stuff that wouldn't make sense in real life that you can try putting as part of a culture in another world?
I think Ascendance of a Bookworm made me really think about this kind of stuff, because this is not only an isekai that doesn't have either of the tropes OP mentioned, but also a story that makes its pseudo-medieval isekai setting a bit more interesting. There's specific worldbuilding put into it like what the numerical and writing systems are like, what kind of strange fruit are exclusive to this world, what kind of traditions/holidays are there, etc.

So now I'm really trying to look (and think up of) for isekai ideas like that; I don't even watch this guy much but I can't help but smirk at Scamboli Reviews's enthusiasm from imagining what a "Doom isekai" would be like. Why hasn't anyone bothered to think up of the hellscape setting that he talks about in his video yet? Surely some people can get off their JRPG-medieval-world-mana fetish or something and try coming up with something really out there and different like that. Isekai's gonna sell regardless, so you might as well try something more ambitiously different and still be able to slap the tag right on your story, right??? Some people will read anything, so might as well try to make some "anything" with some actual high quality or something, right???????
I mean, come on, some creators should really prod over the isekai concept for some time before starting. Look at what's already been done and try to twist it—and no I don't mean with one stupid gimmick that you can easily replace with anything. I mean, think this stuff over—you'd think with all these popular isekai anime and light novels coming out that there should be a future isekai where MC realizes that they've been isekai'd and will now assume that they'll be given all the typical isekai treatment like they've seen in their animu and ranobe, right? Or does an isekai like that exist? Am I just describing KonoSuba? (I mean, I wouldn't know, I've never watched or read it!!)
And as dertasso and DrSexy said, it seems that many of these isekai don't even focus on the trope as an actual plotpoint. You could remove the isekai part and it'd just be an average fantasy, right? Why don't some of these people... I dunno... USE ISEKAI and make it central to the story?? Why does the MC have to be isekai'd in this story? Is there anything significant about this plotpoint that can be applied to their actions/character and therefore add to the story? Does the MC develop culture shock from being exposed to a radically different culture in another world? Does the MC share some of their culture or their past as some fun stories to tell others while in this other world? Does the MC get lonely from being away from their friends, family and/or entertainment (as in MC's anime/manga/games/merch didn't get transported with MC)? Does the MC struggle from living in this world due to being unable to survive by themselves in a wild forest or from being unable to communicate with others due to a language barrier or something?? Thinking about all this now, there are so many aspects to think about when it comes to someone getting transported/reincarnated into a new world that they are not used to and actually thinking about them seriously could add some depth to the story... or at least make the isekai plotpoint feel actually relevant and not just some cool new holographic sticker that is hardly stuck onto the plain-looking page and only added on so that more people notice the otherwise plain-looking piece of paper.

tl;dr - people need to frickin read a book for once and learn from the book they read (or at least watch a video essay about this stuff, they help understanding and appreciating the media you consume too) so that they can learn to write better and not write the pointless lame crap all the time PLEASE


...sorry that last paragraph got ranty there

i need to sleep

GamerDLM said:
I mean, you kind of undercut you own premise when 2 of your examples of good/unique isekai series literally have those features.

Mushoku Tensei has the main character as a top class magician who literally redefined how magic works in the world and literally conversing with god for the most ideal path to travel to give them the best possible chance of success. All while having several potential romantic routes over the course of the series (harems are defined as 3+ potential romantic interests which this series does have). Also it obviously has the typical NEET main character (arguably even more typical than most standard isekai series to a point that he's basically a stereotype).

Tanya the Evil has them overpowered both in the sense that the main character has naturally extremely high magical abilities directly given to them by god (to convert them into a believer) putting them as a top class soldier in direct combat with the historical knowledge of an alternate history that gives them an all around edge in the war.

Conceptualhero said:


The main character in MT has clear weaknesses. He is not like the MC in Slime Tensei who is durable and also have a lot of firepower. If you find the MT MC in a dark alley, you can easily kill him before he can even react. A sneak attack or an ambush would work fine.

The God seems very ominous. I don't think it can be trustworthy.

GamerDLM said:

The MC in Slime Tensei also wasn't even remotely the strongest character in the show and literally had an occurrence where they were ambushed and outmatched by a character who ordinarily would have been weaker than them. If your argument is that preparation by an opponent implies weakness in the main character you have to apply that both ways, a major weakness of Rimuru is having their magic negated.
Also your scenario is arguably false, the main character in MT can both avoid the darkness through magic and . (Also you never challenged the harem aspect)

Doesn't matter if the god is trustworthy they're intentionally an antagonist but it still results in the main character being way overpowered due to the premise of the show.

GamerDLM said:

The MC in Slime Tensei also wasn't even remotely the strongest character in the show and literally had an occurrence where they were ambushed and outmatched by a character who ordinarily would have been weaker than them. If your argument is that preparation by an opponent implies weakness in the main character you have to apply that both ways, a major weakness of Rimuru is having their magic negated.
Also your scenario is arguably false, the main character in MT can both avoid the darkness through magic and (Also you never challenged the harem aspect)

Doesn't matter if the god is trustworthy they're intentionally an antagonist but it still results in the main character being way overpowered due to the premise of the show.

GamerDLM said:

And that barrier was set up by generally ordinary humans who inherently would be vastly weaker than anybody associated with Rimuru. It's a case where an underdog with preparation could push the main character to the brink and it's comparable to an ambush in MT.
You're still ignoring the initial points I brought up that he effectively redefined how magic works in the world by discovering an ability so unheard of it was thought to be impossible to cast without incantations and demonstrated extremely powerful magic putting him in the higher echelons of magic users by age 8. In his world he is far from weak by the worlds own metrics.
Future vision is way more important than you're making it out to be, his primary weakness established prior to that point was his physical prowess (his lack of sword skills and the fact that he's literally a child) and that ability notably covers for that weakness to a point that he's a match for again fairly high ranked swordsman in direct conflict.
"What if" scenarios also don't generally apply, he's a magic user who by that point had established himself with several magical elements all of fairly high class. 1v1 would have been more of a struggle but all he'd really need to do is land 1 high ranking spell with no incantation and he wins. (Basically if he was forced to go for a lethal hit then it would be very 1 sided but instead he tries to avoid lethal blows which makes the fights harder by choice)

Conceptualhero said:



For example, if an Isekai series tries to do something different by eliminating harems, power disparities, and the typical MC NEET, would it be something worth watching?

Touma_Mikoto said:


there are plenty of Isekai series that do not have a harem or a NEET MC, or even default OPness
For example Ascendance of a Bookworm MC just is a bookworm but was not a NEET nor does she really has a harem nor is so really OP and besides spoiler that is causing her to be extremely weak she is just like the rest of the people living in their town besides having this worlds knowledge which she uses to try and make books

there are others but from the top of my head I sadly can not tell yha names for them atm, would have to search for them again but mostly they are not animated though they are either (web) novels or manga

dabdabgoose said:
You can't honestly be comparing the two, Rimaru has the predator skill which is literally the most OP thing I have ever heard(and even that has been upgraded since), even if he Isn't the strongest at any particular time his ceiling has no limit, Rudeus hasn't got anything even in the same ball park not even close, Rimaru right now is more OP then Rudeus is at the end of the series relative to their worlds, you can't deny that, it's just fact.

Rudeus isn't even the strongest in his own party, Ruijierd could kill him with ease at current.

Rudeus is op for his age but not the world, and Humans are weaker then other races as well so his limited in that as well, infact at all given times soo far Rudeus has been around people stronger then him, with Paul at the start, Glisliane at Roa and Ruijierd now.

Without Ghislaine at Roa saving him he also would of died.

GamerDLM said:

The argument isn't whether Rudeus is as overpowered in his world as Rimuru is in their world. The argument is whether Rudeus is overpowered within the context of his world. Which my argument is yes he is and just because other characters are demonstrably overpowered in other anime doesn't undercut the fact that Rudeus is overpowered in his world.

Again using the same logic Rudeus is 8 and has extremely high potential given his rapidly accelerated start. The presence of a character who has peaked in his company doesn't undercut the fact that he has very clear advantages not awarded to any other characters in the show which by definition makes him overpowered. Otherwise by the same logic Rimuru was actively in the company of Milim who has been consistently demonstrated to be stronger than Rimuru even after reaching his demon lord form. If the act of being in the presence of a character who is notably stronger means they aren't overpowered the same metric has to apply.

alshu said:
Nope.
Still a matter of execution, not settings and ideas.
There are enough good isekai shows with overpowered MCs. Everything depends on the abilities of the author to tell the story.

GamerDLM said:

And that barrier was set up by generally ordinary humans who inherently would be vastly weaker than anybody associated with Rimuru. It's a case where an underdog with preparation could push the main character to the brink and it's comparable to an ambush in MT.
You're still ignoring the initial points I brought up that he effectively redefined how magic works in the world by discovering an ability so unheard of it was thought to be impossible to cast without incantations and demonstrated extremely powerful magic putting him in the higher echelons of magic users by age 8. In his world he is far from weak by the worlds own metrics.
Future vision is way more important than you're making it out to be, his primary weakness established prior to that point was his physical prowess (his lack of sword skills and the fact that he's literally a child) and that ability notably covers for that weakness to a point that he's a match for again fairly high ranked swordsman in direct conflict.
"What if" scenarios also don't generally apply, he's a magic user who by that point had established himself with several magical elements all of fairly high class. 1v1 would have been more of a struggle but all he'd really need to do is land 1 high ranking spell with no incantation and he wins. (Basically if he was forced to go for a lethal hit then it would be very 1 sided but instead he tries to avoid lethal blows which makes the fights harder by choice)


10,000 soldiers who are all vastly weaker than pretty much any adult demon in Tempest. They were all humans with little to no magical prowess in an ambush with powerful magic. the number doesn't matter because only 1 member of the army was any significant threat to even supporting characters in the show.
So you're granting the point that just because there is a higher echelon of characters in the show it has no effect on the metric of whether a character is considered overpowered within their world. Otherwise you would grant that the higher tier demon lords or entities like the great dragons would cause Rimuru even after attaining demon lord level powers to struggle ergo they're not overpowered.
Mana is an arbitrary metric and Rudeus is already established to have an unnaturally high amount and aptitude given his age. You both seem to have some inherent confusion, if a character at age 8 is stronger than over half the population of the world is it really that hard to consider them overpowered?

Also again Mushoku Tensei literally has a harem aspect which you've conveniently ignored given several chances. Which leads me to believe that even if I granted he wasn't really overpowered it's still a show you deemed consistently good that actively contains a trope that you consider to be detrimental to the genre (harems). Not even mentioning the NEET in a past life aspect which again the show has but you've chosen to avoid.

dabdabgoose said:
But that isn't true though, for example if Slyphiette did the same things as Rudeus did as a child to build her mana and had a Magic teacher at the same age she also could do the same things as she also has a Laplace factor but unlike Rudeus she can also use Battle aura so technically her birth Ceiling is higher, plus she is half elf so she has a longer lifespan to build power.

The only thing that makes Rudeus powerful is his intelligence at Birth due to being an Adult in a babys body that is all.


Also there is plenty of Characters that are stronger and always will be stronger then Rudeus will be(we haven't seen them in the anime so I won't spoil but there is plenty) that is not the case for Rimaru who has the highest ceiling without question.

Earned skill vs not.

Rimaru is a Mary Sue in comparison.

Conceptualhero said:

As an example, in MMORPGs, mages or assassins are considered "glass cannons," a term used to describe a character being able to inflict massive amounts of damage but are severely lacking in durability. This is the case with Rudeus, where he absolutely can be fucked over by even the weakest human if he gets jumped. Rudeus is the main character of the series, and in like almost every main character in an epic fantasy adventure, the character has to be strong. In a way, that is how assassins or mages in almost any RPG are balanced.

I have never said Mushoku Tensei did not have a "harem" aspect in my post. I merely mentioned it was an Isekai series that was consistently good. Even if Mushoku Tensei has a harem, it is wildly different than how harems are portrayed in 99% of the Isekai out there currently. For one, the girls don't actually meet each other until much later on in the series.

I used Ascendance of a Bookworm and The Saga of Tanya the Evil as the primary examples of series that doesn't fall victim of general Isekai tropes.

GamerDLM said:

Glass cannons by nature are known for being able to output extremely high amounts of damage and unlike most glass cannons Rudeus has powerful magic that can be used defensively as well as enhancements like his future sight.

The foundation of this thread was that the presence of those 3 characteristics/tropes are detrimental to the isekai genre. Again even if I grant that Rudeus isn't overpowered it's unquestionable that there are at least 3 love interests just in the show so far and that he was a NEET in a prior life. "It was done better imo" means that those tropes aren't influential on whether isekai is worthwhile or not meaning the point of this thread and the argument by relation fails. In order for your argument to work the very presence of it should be detrimental to the quality of the show.

You then failed to defend Tanya as not being overpowered or gave up. Tanya by comparison is unquestionably overpowered. As demonstrated by her natural capacity for magic allowing them to have complete air superiority even breaking the height record for flight by mages and powerful spells that can wipe out whole units. Also the option for a god mode that quadruples her abilities resulting in devastating explosive magic that can wipe out entire companies of soldiers, auto targeting from a height that no other soldier can physically reach and Tanya is the only person who can safely use it in the world.

Common tropes that exist in Isekai series come in the form of harems or the MC being too powerful because they are God's chosen one. Another common trope is the character being a NEET prior to the transporation to the new setting.

I don't mind the isekai genre, but series such as Slime Tensei and that Spider series really irks me. There are decent series like Grimgar that had potential but falls really flat in the later volumes. Then you have ones that are consistently good like Mushoku Tensei and Bookworm.

The most unique Isekai series I have seen is probably The Saga of Tanya the Evil. The main character was not a NEET, and the setting of their new world is not based on a medieval fantasy setting.

If newer Isekai eliminate the common tropes found in today's popular series, would it make the Isekai genre better?

For example, if an Isekai series tries to do something different by eliminating harems, power disparities, and the typical MC NEET, would it be something worth watching?

Conceptualhero said:
Do mages and rogues not have defensive abilities? I played a shit ton of MMORPGS such as WoW, ESO, and even MOBAs like LoL, and Glass Cannons have defensive capabilities.

GamerDLM said:

They have defensive abilities but usually in order to spec into a glass cannon spec they have to sacrifice damage potential. For example frost mages are the weakest dps wise in WoW on average but they get slows and roots that arcane and fire lack. MOBAs have so many different build aspects possibilities that it's inherently harder to pin down but frequently mages have no defense specific abilities
Rogues again it depends on the game and build but more often than not they're built for burst and crits and their main utility is movement speed so they can pick off a person and escape. But very often they have "duelist" builds where it's high sustained damage but they lose CC or escape functionality.


First of all if you just wanted a survey you would have done a poll as opposed to only posing it as a discussion. Secondly I'm using your personally chosen examples to undercut the premise by saying there is no correlation between a show being worthwhile and those tropes being present. The only show I can't comment on from the examples is Bookworm because I have not watched it. But the point of my post was to point out how despite those tropes being present you still consider shows using them to be worthwhile/unique. Which would strongly imply that those tropes have no relevance to a show being worthwhile or unique.

You then chose to pick out a particular series I used in my basis and try to argue against just 1/3 of the tropes I presented as being in the show. Even if you disagreed with the overpowered interpretation you should have personally reflected on how him being a NEET in a prior life or the presence of 3+ love interests didn't detract from the show being worthwhile or it being unique. If they did detract from it you should have acknowledged it but instead you turned it into a versus argument between Mushoku Tensei and Slime Tensei for no reason meaning you can't even stick to your basis of it being a "survey".

TL;DR If you actually wanted this to be a survey the argument you tried to start about Rudeus not being overpowered has no relevance because if you can't distance it from all 3 tropes than you still have to acknowledge whether the tropes unquestionably present detracted from your experience.

Conceptualhero said:


1. One can argue Rudeus then specc'ed into a full damage build because he can't use Touki, which makes him extremely weak and prone to any sort of damage?

2. I like to read responses than to do a poll. The reason? I am lazy. Like I have stated before, the question was asked, and I merely waited for the responses to come. The only reason I chose to pick out a particular series you used in your basis was because I was familiar with said series.

This is ultimately a survey and a discussion, but I never took a standpoint, like I have stated before. I have never stated "Isekai series would be better if common tropes weren't used" or anything of that sort, so I have nothing to argue about in the first place.

It seems like you want me to concede to something I never objected to in the first place. The only point that I interpreted differently was the MC of MT being overpowered, but besides that I don't really care about any elements of your post at all, at least not enough to argue about them.

GamerDLM said:

1. That's only 1 example of a defensive trait. His wide array of magic utility also emphasized defensive capabilities (Ie. combining earth and water to make things like mud traps or walls). If anything Rudeus tends to emphasize defense and utility more than power but he has the capability for power if he needs it. More often than not he just chooses not to use it because he prioritizes non-lethal methods when dealing with people. Which also emphasizes that most of the struggle he has is self imposed.

2. The presentation of this question while calling out specific tropes as being even potentially detrimental is inherently taking a stance otherwise there's no purpose for the discussion. The fact that you also so emphatically try to distance each of the examples from those tropes only further cements that point. Otherwise there's no reason to call out these specific tropes.

If you don't take a stance on those tropes it shouldn't matter if your example of "good/unique" series use them but even in cases where you clearly couldn't defend the series you tried to downplay the use of those tropes.
Ie. In Tanya you tried to distance them from being "gods chosen one" who was overpowered as a result by saying like "god isn't trustworthy" which yeah, god is literally the main antagonist, it's kind of a central point of the show. In the case of harem for Mushoku Tensei your only argument was the girls don't meet each other until later but no harem has ever required the females to have close contact with each other.

I didn't inherently say either of those shows were bad for using those tropes, and if anything I used them to emphasize the counterpoint that tropes have little to no effect on the show and your response was to try and distance those shows from those tropes. That is taking a stance against those tropes otherwise my post shouldn't have mattered to you other than just being another observation.

GamerDLM said:

Except that knowledge inherently gave him a huge advantage that Sylphiette theoretically could have done but never actually would have because Rudeus brought in outside knowledge that allowed him to question a very foundation of one of the main combat aspects in the world to develop a skill that can only really be mastered children like Rudeus and Sylphie at the time.
That outside knowledge gave Rudeus the precedence to completely redefine what was considered common knowledge amongst magic users and his naturally high attributes like his capacity for mana to use higher class spells gave him a clear advantage even amongst established magical peers. Also he literally gets direction from a god character that led him to abilities that later would prove extremely beneficial (such as his future vision) or information that would directly help him ensure success.

dabdabgoose said:
Didn't I already say this?

That is his only real OP keeping his memories which allows him to develop at a stupidly high level but the point is his base Wasn't overtly special even in that world.

I'll put spoiler tags here just for anime only views.