Tonal shifts in anime

ArrRti said:
Intersting topic.

Tonal shifts I consider really well done:
---
K-On series: It starts out as a happy go lucky show but gets more melancholic as the end draws near. That is starting from episode 1 of Season 2 and becomes more common as the episodes fly by.

3-Gatsu No Lion series: The changes between the serious aspects the show tackles and the comedy is done well better than most other shows can accomplish. As much as I like Your Lie in April, 3-Gatsu is on a whole other level.

Madoka Magica: As sudden as the shift came, as brutal was it. Caught me by surprise and I like it.


Tonal shifts I consider hit and miss:
---
Your Lie in April: As already said, really good show but the comedy is sometimes really off, and I mean really.

Gintama series: Comedy and serious moments are way too often great. But sometimes they are just way over the top or not as funny as the author wanted to highlight it.


Tonal shifts I consider (somewhat) bad:
Asobi Asobase: Unlike in Gintama I consider the comedy in here way worse way too often. The combination of slice of life with the comedy this girls do is just...creepy.

Fairy Tail: Whenver we have the moment something tragic happens, while the show itself is most of the time almost never serious, they quickly resolve the tragic moments. If you're deep enough into this show you reach the point where these moments ultimately become uninteresting to you. After the 100th death of a character I just don't care anymore.


That's about enough. There's more of course.

Black_Sheep97 said:
As long as their intergrated in the story where it fits within the context of the characters and how they would act in those situations I have no critical problem with it doesn't mean I enjoy.

Eg:
Shigatsu
Hellsing
Fmab

I find the complaint of tonal deals with the comedic , I think the issue is more so a bad joke than a bad tonal shift.

Lunilah said:
Comedic levity in Hellsing wouldn't be equivalent to something like Demon Slayer, as the jokes are as sick and twisted as the core theme of the show, meaning it doesn't actually change the tone of the show at all. So otherwise; if a joke is just a bad joke then it brings down the show, if a joke lands in say the context of whatever Demon Slayer is trying to be then it undercuts everything it's tried to previously establish.

Black_Sheep97 said:
I don't why you're talking to me I haven't even seen demon slayer.

Comedy is a subjective thing if it doesn't land sure it can be considered a bad joke but if it's fits within the context of the character and the situation then it's fine and not poorly written ,it would be preferable for it to be funny but that's something that is highly dependent on the individual. So whatever the issue is with demon slayer if they fit the characters characterization then it isn't a problem. If the joke lands in demon slayer and it's naturally incorporated then it isn't a problem

Lunilah said:
I didn't say you said anything about Demon Slayer, i simply used it as a reference for my point to establish why tonal shifts even when it's a good joke doesn't fit.

operationvalkyri said:
I like the shift in Attack on Titan and Made in Abyss because you can totally expect those characters to insult each other do something silly. They're written as immature.

I did not like the shift in FMA:B because the comedy was forced.

operationvalkyri said:
The first two shows made me chuckle often. I felt that FMA:B had only a few jokes that it kept repeating. But maybe that's just me. Humour IS subjective after all.

Black_Sheep97 said:
fair enough I say that if a tonal shift fits the characters and the reaction it's fine and doesn't undermine anything.

And it seems based on your argument against the demon slayer , that applies as well just because the tone of the show and the progression of moments isn't what we want that doesn't mean it's bad thing.

This stance on tonal shift seems highly subjective.

Lunilah said:
Definitely not highly subjective as the concepts and points of genres and tone are specifically defined, as well as every frame and bit of dialogue not being an accident in a story, it's only their interpretation of the content that is subjective while the structure and execution is fair game as both the content and context don't matter here.

I concede that i should have checked to see if you have seen Demon Slayer beforehand to make a point about it, because i just look like i'm pompous, a mistake on my part. I'll go with Madoka instead, how it beautifully subverts the tone and overall narrative with well established setup, as opposed to for example an anime where plot is the driving force of character progression without setup rather than narrative development (not talking about Demon Slayer, just making a point). The while interpretation of Madoka can be subjective, especially with how it makes you feel, you can still give a measured analysis on how well it's written and executed. The point not being objective vs subjective, but together and not at odds (how critique is) in how a story tells itself.

I hope i've explained myself at least a little better by referencing something you've actually seen, for both our sakes, lol.

Black_Sheep97 said:
I feel like the context and the content does matter cause that determines whether the shift was forced or not.

You're stance on tone shifts seems to be similar to what I said previously if it's forced it's bad, does demon slayer have no set up for it's tone shifts I don't know . But with regards to madoka magica I feel like thats a bad example of what we were talking about. That is an example of a tone shift that transpires throughout the whole story and is not momentarily gag or levity.

Going back to that , take FMAB for example which I think I covers what I'm talking about to the T , these aren't tone shifts that can be categorized similarly to what madoka magica does , they generate levity and showcase a side of the characters that are in the context outside of the dramatics. While they made cringe at times I won't attribute to poor writing as they felt naturally intergrated with the characters and how situations transpired.

I feel like labeling madoka magica a well done tone shift a disservice to the series making it seem like that is what made it special ,when in actuality it was the writing of the progressed narrative and how builds upon the set up that made it good. The tone shift was simply something that accompanied it.

Even though tone is a well defined concept, it's still a highly subjective one by the nature of it's definition , this is similar to pacing as well. So I think when you suggest an analysis of the story in regards to how well it's executed that comes down to analyzing the characters and the plot in the forefront not the tone shift which is more of a by product.

I admittedly rambled a bit towards the end. Hope I was clear.

Lunilah said:
What you said was clear.

The reason i said why context and content don't matter is because jokes, good and bad, can be well within the tone and not break anything like Hellsing thus defeating the point of talking about tonal shifts. Momentary gags or levity wouldn't break tone either as they are just that, momentary. For simplicity sake i can refer to those as micro with macro being overall narrative/theme (tone). So these macro shifts in horror and sometimes violence with comedy, even if it's good comedy and i'm not talking about anything momentary, for how stories and their themes tell themselves are antithetical to each other, unless its contextualized in parody most of the time (i think the contrast of Hellsing Abridged to the original is a good example of how something scary and intimidating loses both of those things in comedy). For greater context you can have a roller coaster of a story with interchanging sad and happy themes, because that would be bittersweet if it was done well but if it wasn't that story might have an identity crisis but there are always exceptions, comedy is a black sheep especially with horror and ultra-violence in macro shifts.

FMA:B, i agree that they aren't shifts in overall tone, the anime doesn't lose it's identity at all in the actual very many sprinkles of nearly everything it has. My nondescript point of Madoka was on purpose, because i was specifically talking about that one narrative focal point because it's the core to what i'm saying and i'm not trying to do a full review, you explained the opposite of my own counter of Madoka by explaining everything it is when i explained everything it's not. As in it's not solely progressed by plot as it's a near complete package of good storytelling, regardless what the tone shift is a product of it still happened. Full circle there, i hope.

I hope i already explained in this post why given context of tone (ie: horror and sometimes violence with comedy), and the last post for pacing since what i said about character progression via plot without setup rather than narrative development, fits aptly on why it's not simply highly subjective. But i think it's unfair to discount tone shifts because they can be a by product of characters and plot, because everything is a product of that. Like the characters and plot directly affect the story in almost all stories, the characters and plot can be entirely consistent with themselves and on their own be a "good concept or premise" or a "great character in a weak story" while still having a broken or weak narrative. Judging on just those 2 would definitely be a disservice to critique.

To sum up, i'm not against macro tonal shifts. Just that some bad tonal shifts aren't only determined by the content of how it came to be because the narrative can still suffer under certain circumstances.

Black_Sheep97 said:


I will address only points i disagree with.

I see the idea of a story having an identity crises only when the changes of tone come out of nowhere and feel forced which is what I've been saying. That being said I've never come across an anime of this kind and i don't quite understand the concept of an anime losing it's identity.
If a story can be roller coaster of emotions would a tone shift for levity be an aspect of that. The thing in madoka magica it is progressed by the plot , it wasn't done for the sake making a shocking tone shift but for making the plot more interesting by serving as deconstruction. Good storytelling is more dependent on plot than on tone. Tone by it's definition is about mood and atmosphere and how it affects the reader so it is completely subjective what you're addressing as objective is plot progression in a coherent and understandable manner which is in fact objective.

I think we agree that without proper set up and progression the tone is poorly executed but the poor tone is a product of bad writing which in turn makes it a bad tone shift i.e., it's forced. You're everything is a product of characters and plot that's why they are the precedent. If you don't have tone shift in your story, say you're tone is bleak throughout but it created by a poorly constructed plot and characters the tone may not be compromised but you're story certainly is. I agree that just judging those two would be ill advised I don't consider to be a disservice. Cause fundamentally what you want in story is understandable characters and a coherent plot anything beyond that is a bonus cause there is so much that can be done with those two, injecting a high level of imagination into the plot and characters and exploring various themes through them. There are other things that can critisized and analyzed in fiction such as symbolism, tying together and setting up plot threads, foreshadowing, clever subversions and ideas, developing your characters and plot for thematic exploration. These are things that I believe to objective criteria. And how unique and in depth they are effect it's overall quality. What I try to do is eliminate my enjoyment and experience with from the equation this includes ignoring if the tone made me feel the way I wanted to feel or if the pacing suited my attention span i.e., I try to remove anything I consider subjective or a personal preference which is quite annoying and frustrating at times but I believe it to be the most fair.

I'm a frim believer that if I didn't like something or I wanted something done differently doesn't make it bad.

Lunilah said:
I see where we are mainly opposed, i'm looking outward onto the story for tone, like what it's trying to get across in how the story was written, not inwardly in how what it got across affects me which is how you described it.

Wasn't trying to imply tone is more important than plot in storytelling, characters and plot can take all the precedent it wants, same with voice acting and sound design if someone so desires, but it doesn't mean if a story is tonally confused i'm not going to harp on it. If you wrote your story with 2 main tones being horror and comedy, it's going to suffer because they're in complete and direct opposition to each other unless it's parodical, but then it's just comedy at that point losing all horror i think, and i think you agree with that. I'm not punitive to things that happen the way i don't want them to either, there is no one way to write a story, it's why they're so interesting.

For Madoka, when i mentioned it's not solely progressed by the plot i meant the whole series because i was making the point of i think it's a good anime. The narrative is precisely progressed by plot for sure, that's what plots do to narratives obviously, the confusion here i think is when i was talking about plot i was talking about that being tied to character progression instead of by the story. Which if i'm wrong about that for Madoka then i'm wrong about that, i don't recall overtly forced without setup character progression by plot throughout the series, the sequel movie felt like that though from what i remember, characters being drug through the mud of the plot.

HungryForQuality said:


It was? I thought it was pretty "normal". Sure there's drama revolving around his family and a little about loss, but nothing extreme. Most of it is shown through visual metaphors + implications and not literally. It's not Texhnolyze, that's for sure.

Anyhoo, I found the comedy moments to intrude on the buildups, especially the one between Rei and Kyouko. It was also sanctioned off too much. Half the episode would be all serious and the other half would be all comedy so it came off as unnatural. I like it a lot more when there is a mix like in Girls' last Tour. Feels more natural.

Considerably better than Shigatsu for what it's worth but still a flaw for me.

Black_Sheep97 said:
what a story gets across in how it's written is in relation with the thematic analysis that i brought , tone is about the mood the viewer experience, themes and exploration of ideas are different.

Didn't think you were implying just trying to convey what I thought? I think that if you're plot flows in a natural manner and the characters are understandable for all of it , the tone shifts aren't problematic. The idea of comedy and horror tone are an interesting one but those kind kind of shows tend to be an adventure or action show with element of horror and comedy inserted in there as well, this is exactly how FMAB and Hellsing ultimate works they have highly comedic or goofy scenes while having heavy elements of disturbing almost horrific content in there as well. If you have a story that is only horror comedy like Shaun of the dead then yeah I can see your point where it would cease to be a horror, but the issue is I've never seen an anime like that soley has comedy and horror.

But that's what I mentioned as well didn't i said that the character progression and plot progression is what made it special the tone shift is a by product. Maybe I didn't but that's always been my stance. Not to sound to confrontational but if you are affirming the stance that tone shifts in a story bother your enjoyment or effected you in the wrong regardless whether it was justified by context or not, then yeah you are being kinda punitive or biased especially if you paint something objective when it is critism that is only justified through an subjective lens.

Pullman said:
On the contrary I think that not having tonal shifts is often a bigger problem for me because it can easily make a show monotonous. Comedies that don't have some drama or a more serious or at least feelgood aspect to them usually don't appeal to me as much as 'dramedies' for example.

Lunilah said:
Hmm, while you didn't say tone and theme are interchangeable, i'm sorta reading it that way, but i believe both of the ways we've described tone are correct.

I mean i've harped on Demon Slayer, and i think it's a flaw, but it's not a bad anime i do recommend it to people. It's got the top tier quality of art, and most of the time animation, that you expect from ufotable in an interesting world setting.

I'm not marking it down on principle or solely based on enjoyment just to be punishing, i don't view critique in a binary way with subjective and objective being split where i'm just adding up pros and cons, you know? Demon Slayer isn't even half way through yet and i'm still excited for what happens, just up to this point this is where i stand.

Unrelated because i'm rambling: The way i view critique is based on 3 principles; being solely subjective is pure delusion, being solely objective is impossible, and naturally no one person can be the ultimate critic. Even when you measure objective things with objective tools, like say writing or plot and combing through for inconsistencies, it's still us as the subjective tool, but at the same time it doesn't mean it's equivalent to a simple opinion. I like the comparison of critic's critiques and simple opinions like a Lawyer's legal opinion vs my buddy Dave's opinion in court, i've also seen the comparison of a critic to a Historians on history compared to Dave, fuck Dave.

Lunilah said:
Ignored all the 3gatsu posts because i plan on watching it. So if you touched on my question, gg.

This part sticks out to me and makes me wonder what you think about this within Steins;Gate 0 to Steins;Gate, since i see you have them at the same score. I have 0 lower because it felt extremely monotonous to me.

Pullman said:


First of all I am confused that I rated those the same, I definitely liked the first one more because of exactly that reason. I used to have it at 9/10 too which is probably where it should be in comparison, must have changed the score at some point without thinking about it too much.

I was probably thinking that I did kinda like the plot itself more in 0, but my enjoyment was definitely higher in the first one. Although that could also just be because of when I watched it (much earlier), but the more one-sided mood with okabe lacking his charming and eccentric personality (which carried much of S1 for me) was definitely also a big part of it. So I think I'll re-up the first one to 9/10.

Black_Sheep97 said:
I don't believe tone and theme are interchangeable they are different things. So I don't think we can bother be correct if our ideas are complete opposites so I don't think you think I'm correct, but thats fine we can agree to disagree.

Well I haven't seen it but based on what I've said in this discussion you can discern what my thoughts on it with regards to it's tone shift might possibly be.

I agree I don't think critique is completely binary but there should be a self understanding on what critism leans towards subjective or objective, and we should also create a criteria for ourselves that is logically consistent and devoid of personal bias as much as possible to make fair assessments and not be hypocritical about them especially with regards to categorizing a pro or a con, and I think you're issue with demon slayer sounds like issue with personal preference but I shouldn't cause I haven't seen it yet.

This final paragraph i pretty much agree with everything you say here, my thing I try to be objective as much as possibly can , will my answer be fact no but Ive done the best I could to be as fair as possible and I think you know how I do that based on what I've said previously on my thoughts on tone and pacing relationship to critique.

Lunilah said:
Damn, i was honestly hoping for some enlightenment, not gonna lie.

Nono, i don't think theme and tone are interchangeable, i just couldn't help read what you said like you were implying they were, but thanks for clearing that up.

What i meant both to be correct is when i said this: "I see where we are mainly opposed, i'm looking outward onto the story for tone, like what it's trying to get across in how the story was written, not inwardly in how what it got across affects me which is how you described it.".

My view on Demon Slayer might be personal preference, i don't think it is, it could change for the series overall but it's just where it's lead me so far.

thiago52192 said:
Sangatsu no Lion knew exactly when and how to shift between a extreme serious/dramatic moment to a more light hearted/comedic moment. This was crucial to the show, because the serious moments were so heavy that the viewer needed to "breathe" a little. The show in itself is already hard to watch for a long time, and I belive without this tonal shifts, it would be even harder