| Is the Complaint about an anime Pandering to Fans of a character a vaild one? It seems to me that the complaint about Pandering seem to me to depend on whether the person is a part of the fanbase that is being pandered to or if he is not a part of it it depends on how he feels about said fanbase/character/etc that is being pandered to. For example I never saw a person complain about Pandering if he is a part of the group being pandered to while said person would complain about pandering if he dislikes the character or if he is angry that said character is getting more attention than the character that he likes So what do you think about Pandering? Do you think its necessary a bad thing? If not do you think there is a limit to how acceptable it is? |
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| If it is pandering in the way that most people who aren't part of that pandered niche group find it obnoxious, then it's a negative, therefore s criticism, because it makes most other viewers not happy with what there watching, and instead mindlessly panders to a specific audience. That's part of the reason these harem-school-battle shows have been rated so poorly, well, except for Chivalry, but that's because from what I've heard, it actually tried some new things. |
CodeBlazeFateJul 1, 2016 4:41 AM
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| No that's like going into a kfc and asking for a whopper. |
| In theory it could be but... No, most of the time people are just stating the obvious in a derogatory manner. |
| Yes. Yes it is. Only fandoms can make a statement that screams "accept me" and nothing does it as shamelessly as anime does. It's unhealthy. |
| no, because every anime panders to some group in some way. some fans should just accept that not every anime genre/type will appeal to them. |
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| It can be vague or misused like any other criticism, but it is far from just a useless buzzword. Especially concerning the ecchi genre and the like. |
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| Yes but not necessarily a negative criticism, it depends on the argumentation. It's like saying an anime is ecchi, even if most people would say they dislike ecchi, being ecchi is not inherently negative but it would still be valid pointing it out. |
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| I don't really think so, It's a valid to call a show 'niche', bu 'pandering' is typically used by people who are attackig a show simply because they aren't in/don't understand a show's target audience. |
| any anime you do not like with cute girls and otaku culture references is pandering |
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ZyrakiKenpasha said: Is the Complaint about an anime Pandering to Fans of a character a vaild one? 1) "Pandering" is a term of abuse. Politically correct way to say it is "the show's target audience is..." 2) People complaining about pandering are likely to be unqualified to make the review in the first place. Usually by not being a part of a show's target audience, and not even having enough wisdom and mental flexibility to accept it or fake it. Hence, their every complaint is invalid, and everything they say about the show is badly biased. |
| "Pandering" has to be the MAL world for 2016... Everyone is fucking using it now. |
| Nah OP . It just means you aren't a part of the target audience . |
| Wohooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo |
kamisama751 said: Depending on pandering to which fans. If the target is filthy shut in fat otakus then it is a negative one. if the target is critics then it is a good one. Nope. I don't know man....I'm hearing it everywhere nowadays where before it was only used a few times. Also, there's this... http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1523757&show=0 http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1506048&show=0 |
| You guys I meant pandering to Fans of a character not a genre For example giving a character more Screentime/ppwerups/plot relevance than what people feel that character "deserves" to please said character's fans |
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ZyrakiKenpasha said: You guys I meant pandering to Fans of a character not a genre For example giving a character more Screentime/ppwerups/plot relevance than what people feel that character "deserves" to please said character's fans I suppose that it could be a valid point of criticism, so long as you elaborate as to why you believe it is pandering and why/how you believe it negatively impacts the show you are viewing. The thing about points of criticism is that they're never fully invalid so long as the individual giving said criticism point can properly elaborate on the point. |
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| No because technically everything panders to something. You could say a super deep anime that critiques modern society and how it's being negatively affected by mainstream culture panders to people who like social commentary.. kamisama751 said: Depending on pandering to which fans. If the target is filthy shut in fat otakus then it is a negative one. if the target is critics then it is a good one. That's just your prejudice against said filthy shut in fat otakus. They have rights too you know.. |
| I haven't seen anyone here ever use the term pandering correctly, so no. |
| Yes Pandering means the series does something to appeal to a specific fanbase. It'll include tropes or archetypes not because they contribute something to the story, merely because they appeal to people. Appealing is a good thing, but if something is there only to increase likability then it backfires. Since it doesn't contribute something to the story or the big ideas, all it does is point out how desperate the creators are for approval. |
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| I think when pandering "breaks the 4th wall" and it's obvious, thus breaking the inmersion, it's a detractor because the show feels less organic, less like if you're watching a show, that's supposed to entertain and/or convey shit, and more as if the creators are trying to be relevant. And it's cool of you're entertained by that kind of shit, but the pandering is still there, hurting. |
 It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; What is essential is invisible to the eye.But does the heart have the right perspective? |
KoreaWS said: I think when pandering "breaks the 4th wall" and it's obvious, thus breaking the inmersion, it's a detractor because the show feels less organic, less like if you're watching a show, that's supposed to entertain and/or convey shit, and more as if the creators are trying to be relevant. And it's cool of you're entertained by that kind of shit, but the pandering is still there, hurting. Breaking the 4th wall is such an overused technique and I say that as a Neptunia fan. That Deadpool trailer was so pandering. |
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| Only if it's pandering to pedo's or furries. |
| Pandering is not a valid criticism because everything panders to a particular audience. |
darkbritishmagic said: Criticism as analysis and judgement of the merits and faults of a literary or artistic work can include pandering since it describes the type of show. It is like saying this is an action anime, would this be invalid just because all the shows are included in a certain genre? Pandering is not a valid criticism because everything panders to a particular audience. Criticism is not always positive or negative, it can be also an observation which can be interpreted positively or negatively depending on one's perspective, in this case if the person in question is the target of the pandering or not. |
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zal said: darkbritishmagic said: Criticism as analysis and judgement of the merits and faults of a literary or artistic work can include pandering since it describes the type of show. It is like saying this is an action anime, would this be invalid just because all the shows are included in a certain genre? Pandering is not a valid criticism because everything panders to a particular audience. Criticism is not always positive or negative, it can be also an observation which can be interpreted positively or negatively depending on one's perspective, in this case if the person in question is the target of the pandering or not. In other words: 'If it doesn't pander to me it's bad.' |
| Everything is pandering to someone. You know, that's like the whole point of having a target audience. Or what, are you telling me that trying to aim your product at a specific group of people is a bad thing? Even though that's what just about every single work of entertainment media ever does? tl;dr - no |
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darkbritishmagic said: Most of the time I've seen it used that is the implied meaning but in a more neutral way it can describe the target audience which is a valid observation to me.zal said: Criticism as analysis and judgement of the merits and faults of a literary or artistic work can include pandering since it describes the type of show. It is like saying this is an action anime, would this be invalid just because all the shows are included in a certain genre? Criticism is not always positive or negative, it can be also an observation which can be interpreted positively or negatively depending on one's perspective, in this case if the person in question is the target of the pandering or not. In other words: 'If it doesn't pander to me it's bad.' |
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zal said: Most of the time I've seen it used that is the implied meaning but in a more neutral way it can describe the target audience which is a valid observation to me. Every show has a target audience, and I do agree it's a valid observation, but I don't think it should be used as a criticism. |
zal said: Most of the time I've seen it used that is the implied meaning but in a more neutral way it can describe the target audience which is a valid observation to me. Except it's almost exclusively used with a negative connotation from what I've seen. Whether it has the option to be a neutral observation doesn't mean it will ever actually be a neutral one. Another similar example would be wish fulfillment. Wish fulfillment based on its description and definition is not a negative thing but it's usually used as a negative connotation to bash a series for not appealing to the individual making the comment. |
| EVERY ANIME panders, people just complain when its not pandering towards them... Tatami Galaxy panders towards elitist trash OH I MEAN UH.... people who want to come off as "really smart" to hide what the other stuff they watch OH GAWD DAMMIT... uh..... yea.... people who are into those 3deep5u anime lol.. i watched it and liked it too, not that that means anything coming from me :D its just an excuse to bash fanservice, u know, stuff people like to look at, cute girls/moe, boobs, assblood, fighting, gore, bright colors, etc all that stuff that a show couldn't be intriguing to most w/o |
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| Sigh... @Gesu- @Mamster-P This isn't true, just because a show has a target audience doesn't mean it is pandering to them. Cowboy Bebop does not necessarily pander to Westerners (though I haven't seen the whole thing yet, so make your own judgement on it), it has a strong western influence (like all Watanabe's work) and so it is more enjoyable to those people. Pandering would be The author compromising on the story to include material they thought would attract more viewers of that group. Pandering is negative by definition (regardless of who it panders to) and refers to material that intentionally tries to stimulate more base desires, so yes, it can be a valid criticism, but it still depends on argumentation just like anything else. Also, saying "I've never seen a member of the group being pandered to complain about pandering" is misleading. Disliking a show's pandering to a specific group means that you aren't part of that group. |
merryfistmasJul 2, 2016 3:38 PM
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darkbritishmagic said: zal said: Most of the time I've seen it used that is the implied meaning but in a more neutral way it can describe the target audience which is a valid observation to me. Every show has a target audience, and I do agree it's a valid observation, but I don't think it should be used as a criticism. GamerDLM said: It implies merits and flaws of similar shows that have the same audience and appeal but in a shorter phrasing, but like most criticisms it need argumentation and explanation in order to be clearer what is meant by it.zal said: Most of the time I've seen it used that is the implied meaning but in a more neutral way it can describe the target audience which is a valid observation to me. Except it's almost exclusively used with a negative connotation from what I've seen. Whether it has the option to be a neutral observation doesn't mean it will ever actually be a neutral one. Another similar example would be wish fulfillment. Wish fulfillment based on its description and definition is not a negative thing but it's usually used as a negative connotation to bash a series for not appealing to the individual making the comment. |
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| Yes. Pandering is bad. And no, you're wrong, most of you in this thread have no idea what pandering even is. Pandering is when the series' atmosphere and setting is shattered by something being crowbarred into the scene for the mere sake of fanservice. If we're watching a serious samurai drama and then, all of a sudden and for no good reason, there's a long, drawn-out bathhouse scene, and nothing plot-related happens during that scene, it's obvious pandering. If we're watching a manga adaptation that has neglected some fan-favorite character (because he's not important) and then, all of a sudden, that character shows up and eats an entire episode with pointless bullshit, it's obvious pandering. And if we're watching a wacky comedy and the characters start using their oh-so-wacky catch phrases as non sequiturs, apropos of nothing, it's fucking obvious pandering. |
 This glorious signature image was created by @Mayumi! I am the Arbiter of Absolute Truth, and here is my wisdom: "Anime was always influenced by the West. This is not news. Shoujo is the superior genre primarily aimed at young people. Harem/isekai are lazy genres that refuse any meaningful innovation. There is no 'Golden Age.' There will always be top-shelf anime. You should be watching Carole & Tuesday." |
merryfistmas said: Sigh... @Gesu- @Mamster-P This isn't true, just because a show has a target audience doesn't mean it is pandering to them. Cowboy Bebop does not necessarily pander to Westerners (though I haven't seen the whole thing yet, so make your own judgement on it), it has a strong western influence (like all Watanabe's work) and so it is more enjoyable to those people. Pandering would be The author compromising on the story to include material they thought would attract more viewers of that group. Pandering is negative by definition (regardless of who it panders to) and refers to material that intentionally tries to stimulate more base desires, so yes, it can be a valid criticism, but it still depends on argumentation just like anything else. Also, saying "I've never seen a member of the group being pandered to complain about pandering" is misleading. Disliking a show's pandering to a specific group means that you aren't part of that group. still, every show panders to some degree, and u know as i know that ppl just use the term in order to bash specific groups.... and you know where im going with this... |
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In that scenario though it would be a much more effective form of criticism to simply state the merits and flaws without preluding it with a negative trigger phrase. I mean you could argue by throwing around those said phrases the critic is then pandering to the group of people who were displeased with the series and immediately discrediting the merits of the show. |
Mamster-P said: Unfortunately you're right that most people misuse the term to hate on ecchi, but a terms constant misuse on MAL does not change it's meaning, and saying that every show panders to some degree seems a little presumptuous.merryfistmas said: Sigh... @Gesu- @Mamster-P This isn't true, just because a show has a target audience doesn't mean it is pandering to them. Cowboy Bebop does not necessarily pander to Westerners (though I haven't seen the whole thing yet, so make your own judgement on it), it has a strong western influence (like all Watanabe's work) and so it is more enjoyable to those people. Pandering would be The author compromising on the story to include material they thought would attract more viewers of that group. Pandering is negative by definition (regardless of who it panders to) and refers to material that intentionally tries to stimulate more base desires, so yes, it can be a valid criticism, but it still depends on argumentation just like anything else. Also, saying "I've never seen a member of the group being pandered to complain about pandering" is misleading. Disliking a show's pandering to a specific group means that you aren't part of that group. still, every show panders to some degree, and u know as i know that ppl just use the term in order to bash specific groups.... and you know where im going with this... |
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merryfistmas said: Unfortunately you're right that most people misuse the term to hate on ecchi, but a terms constant misuse on MAL does not change it's meaning, and saying that every show panders to some degree seems a little presumptuous. they just target moe, ecchi, sometimes shounen, etc they aren't fooling anyone when they use the term. idk why people can't get over the fact that people really fucking love cute and sexy things to be thrown into media, as if wanting to look at those things isn't part of human nature and harmless |
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merryfistmas said: Sigh... @Gesu- @Mamster-P This isn't true, just because a show has a target audience doesn't mean it is pandering to them. Cowboy Bebop does not necessarily pander to Westerners (though I haven't seen the whole thing yet, so make your own judgement on it), it has a strong western influence (like all Watanabe's work) and so it is more enjoyable to those people. Pandering would be The author compromising on the story to include material they thought would attract more viewers of that group. Pandering is negative by definition (regardless of who it panders to) and refers to material that intentionally tries to stimulate more base desires, so yes, it can be a valid criticism, but it still depends on argumentation just like anything else. Also, saying "I've never seen a member of the group being pandered to complain about pandering" is misleading. Disliking a show's pandering to a specific group means that you aren't part of that group. I kinda feel ya, but then it depends on whether you'd say something like "echci anime panders to horny males." Because pretty much everything is made with a target audience in mind and even horny 15 year olds are a potential target audience as well. You can't call that pandering.. I'd need an example to go with that.. |
GamerDLM said: Have you tried writing a review? Sometimes you need to state the same thing a number of times but with different phrasing. Personally I tried first writing a short catch phrase that would summarize the topic and elaborate later on, in this case pandering is useful for the catch phrase. The negative connotation comes from the fact that the term is used mostly by the ones the show is not pandering to. However even with the negative impression it gives if it describes the show I don't see issue in it. If I say a show is pandering to ecchi fans then Mamster-P would probably know the show should be checked out but Zelkiiro would avoid it because they are different targets.In that scenario though it would be a much more effective form of criticism to simply state the merits and flaws without preluding it with a negative trigger phrase. I mean you could argue by throwing around those said phrases the critic is then pandering to the group of people who were displeased with the series and immediately discrediting the merits of the show. |
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zal said: GamerDLM said: Have you tried writing a review? Sometimes you need to state the same thing a number of times but with different phrasing. Personally I tried first writing a short catch phrase that would summarize the topic and elaborate later on, in this case pandering is useful for the catch phrase. The negative connotation comes from the fact that the term is used mostly by the ones the show is not pandering to. However even with the negative impression it gives if it describes the show I don't see issue in it. If I say a show is pandering to ecchi fans then Mamster-P would probably know the show should be checked out but Zelkiiro would avoid it because they are different targets.In that scenario though it would be a much more effective form of criticism to simply state the merits and flaws without preluding it with a negative trigger phrase. I mean you could argue by throwing around those said phrases the critic is then pandering to the group of people who were displeased with the series and immediately discrediting the merits of the show. Personally no I haven't, largely because I disapprove of reviews and reviewers in all types thus it would by hypocritical for me to be apart of it. But that being said if somebody wants to share their opinion of a series in a written or video format, I may not read/watch it but by all means they should go for it. The issue I have is when those catchphrases spill out of the review setting into the viewers who lack the verbal ability to elaborate on why they disapprove of a series. Instead relying on someone else's go to catchphrase to simply bash a series/genre/demographic/etc. |
GamerDLMJul 2, 2016 4:26 PM
Gesu- said: you'd need an example to go with what? I don't watch ecchi, so I can't exactly give examples, but this isn't limited to ecchi.merryfistmas said: Sigh... @Gesu- @Mamster-P This isn't true, just because a show has a target audience doesn't mean it is pandering to them. Cowboy Bebop does not necessarily pander to Westerners (though I haven't seen the whole thing yet, so make your own judgement on it), it has a strong western influence (like all Watanabe's work) and so it is more enjoyable to those people. Pandering would be The author compromising on the story to include material they thought would attract more viewers of that group. Pandering is negative by definition (regardless of who it panders to) and refers to material that intentionally tries to stimulate more base desires, so yes, it can be a valid criticism, but it still depends on argumentation just like anything else. Also, saying "I've never seen a member of the group being pandered to complain about pandering" is misleading. Disliking a show's pandering to a specific group means that you aren't part of that group. I kinda feel ya, but then it depends on whether you'd say something like "echci anime panders to horny males." Because pretty much everything is made with a target audience in mind and even horny 15 year olds are a potential target audience as well. You can't call that pandering.. I'd need an example to go with that.. |
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merryfistmas said: Gesu- said: you'd need an example to go with what? I don't watch ecchi, so I can't exactly give examples, but this isn't limited to ecchi.I kinda feel ya, but then it depends on whether you'd say something like "echci anime panders to horny males." Because pretty much everything is made with a target audience in mind and even horny 15 year olds are a potential target audience as well. You can't call that pandering.. I'd need an example to go with that.. That echci thing was an example. What I meant was that everything is made with a target audience in mind. Now you could say that Elfen Lied panders to people who like gore, but in the end maybe it was meant to be just that ; a mindless gorefest. I won't be able to fully understand what you're trying to say if you don't have an example for it.. |
| If it sticks out like a sore thumb with a disclaimer à la: HELLO I AM HERE TO PANDER TO YOU AND MY RELEVANCE FOR ANYTHING THAT HAS HAPPENED, IS HAPPENING OR WILL EVER HAPPEN IN THIS SHOW IS LITERALLY ZERO BUT PLEASE ENJOY MY SUBTLE PRESENCE AND FOCUS ALL YOUR ATTENTION ON ME NOW AND GODDAMMIT YOU BETTER BE THANKFUL BECAUSE WE'RE GOING OUT OF OUR WAY TO PANDER TO YOU BECAUSE WE EXPECT EVERYONE WHO WATCHES THIS SHOW TO NOT ACTUALLY GIVE A FUCK ABOUT ANYTHING THAT IS GOING ANYWAY ON AND THEREFORE FEEL THE NEED TO CAPTURE THEIR ATTENTION WITH THIS SUBTLE PANDERING BECAUSE - LETS BE HONEST - THIS SHOW IS SHIT AND WE KNOW AND YOU KNOW IT AND YOU'RE ONLY HERE BECAUSE OF THE PANDERING AT LEAST THAT'S HOW WE SEE THE APPEAL OF THIS SHOW ON THE PRODUCER DESK SO PLEASE ENJOY I HOPE YOU PAY US A LOT OF MONEY FOR THE BDS THANK YOU VERY MUCH Then yes, I'd call that shitty writing par exellence. You can think about pandering once you know how to write decently and make it flow natural within the context of the story, but more often than not it feels like there only is a story or plot so there is an alibi for pandering and when that's the main or only purpose of a show the writing will suffer and the show is gonna be shit unless literally the only reason you watch it is for the pandering. In which case it's an ecchi harem show, which is fine, but when similar things happen to shows that don't belong in that primary category it's fucking annoying. If you're not confident enough for your story and characters and writing to convince people to enjoy the show on their own, then why the fuck publish or adapt it in the first place? When I get the feeling that the producers and writers themselves think their story and characters are so shitty that they need to implement tons of strong fanservice elements, it really makes me lose the motivation for the show. |
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Mamster-P said: merryfistmas said: Unfortunately you're right that most people misuse the term to hate on ecchi, but a terms constant misuse on MAL does not change it's meaning, and saying that every show panders to some degree seems a little presumptuous. they just target moe, ecchi, sometimes shounen, etc they aren't fooling anyone when they use the term. idk why people can't get over the fact that people really fucking love cute and sexy things to be thrown into media, as if wanting to look at those things isn't part of human nature and harmless Being part of human nature and harmless does not stop it from being annoying especially since a lot of medium appeals to that demographic. After all, acting like one's opinion matters on an internet forum is part of human nature and harmless, but still annoying to gaze at. People like complaining about insignificant things. You like complaining about people complaining. Complaining is fun. |
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Suryonets said: Mamster-P said: they just target moe, ecchi, sometimes shounen, etc they aren't fooling anyone when they use the term. idk why people can't get over the fact that people really fucking love cute and sexy things to be thrown into media, as if wanting to look at those things isn't part of human nature and harmless Being part of human nature and harmless does not stop it from being annoying especially since a lot of medium appeals to that demographic. After all, acting like one's opinion matters on an internet forum is part of human nature and harmless, but still annoying to gaze at. People like complaining about insignificant things. You like complaining about people complaining. Complaining is fun. well here you go, complaining about me complaining about people complaining look how much free time we all have on our hands |
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Mamster-P said: well here you go, complaining about me complaining about people complaining look how much free time we all have on our hands Never complained about your complaining, more so your reasoning. Just a counterpoint on why something appealing to natural desires in media doesn't mean everyone has to accept it. You can go ahead with complaining. Nothing wrong with how someone spends their time as long they are fine with it. People should be worrying more for themselves, instead of how other people act, but that would mean I am worrying about them. |
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| Every successful media panders to its target audience, and every successful drama manipulates the emotions of its audience, and every successful review is subjective. But that's not what people mean when they have used these words in criticism. Learn to read in between the lines. Anime should pander to its audience, but it should not contain elements so jarring that it becomes immediately noticeable and it doesn't integrate well into the plot. Criticism of fanservice being "pandering" is in essence not really about pandering, but about plot breaking, tension breaking, character breaking, and a host of other things. The pandering is not the criticism itself, but an explanation of what is behind what had occurred. We use it as a short cut so people know what we're talking about without having to explicitly articulate the details. As another example, people often criticize that a show has low production value, but the cost itself is only an explanation of the elements that cause criticism; the actual criticism is probably on low frame-rates, disproportionate artwork, bland colors, animation that is not smooth, or maybe even a rushed ending. By saying that a show has low production value, we say all these things in general. |
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Suryonets said: Mamster-P said: well here you go, complaining about me complaining about people complaining look how much free time we all have on our hands Never complained about your complaining, more so your reasoning. Just a counterpoint on why something appealing to natural desires in media doesn't mean everyone has to accept it. You can go ahead with complaining. Nothing wrong with how someone spends their time as long they are fine with it. People should be worrying more for themselves, instead of how other people act, but that would mean I am worrying about them. kinda sucks when you love something yet 90% of ppl online who want to talk about it spend most of their time complaining.. just saying |
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Gesu- said: The multitude of American military films that promote the military industrial complex and portray us as the good guys in everything we do and demonizing other cultures. Those pander to right wing extremists.merryfistmas said: you'd need an example to go with what? I don't watch ecchi, so I can't exactly give examples, but this isn't limited to ecchi. That echci thing was an example. What I meant was that everything is made with a target audience in mind. Now you could say that Elfen Lied panders to people who like gore, but in the end maybe it was meant to be just that ; a mindless gorefest. I won't be able to fully understand what you're trying to say if you don't have an example for it.. Superhero movies are usually an excuse to put superheroes on screen with no substance. People even admit to enjoying them simply because they want to see X hero on the big screen (I'm not trying to say this is wrong or that you shouldn't do it btw) Ellen Lied, at least what I've seen of it, is composed entirely of pandering, and saying it was meant as a pointless gorefest does not excuse this, it just means its' problems are far more fundamental. Most of the time it's harmless, and if you fine with it then good for you, you enjoy your pandering to the fullest, but some ideas are downright immoral. Now, that is pretty rare, and I'm mostly talking about shows with shit writing kept afloat by tits/car porn/etc. if it offers nothing else well, I'm sure you know my opinion on that. Of course I'm not immune to this, I love fight scenes and will watch something for that alone of the fights are truly exceptional, ButIf a show only offers fan service it better be the best goddamn fan service I've ever seen. |
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