martin03345 said: Higashi_no_Kaze said: Thanks for the tipp. I just peeked and was overjoyed by the quality. Unfortunately I only found their subs from episode 29 ongoing, but now I have something to look forward to while watching the remaing episodes with low quality subs ^^ Thx again. I can give you a link that has all of the eps subbed and they're linked to megaupload for direct downloads in AVI format Thx but I am not a friend of direct downloadsand also the torrents for episode 29-110 are already downloading smoothly and for the few episodes left between I'll just watch them with the subs I already have. They are not THAT bad, seeing I already watched 2 movies and 13(11) episodes with them *gg*. But thanks anyway :) Vinzalf said: And for your viewing pleasure, remember to NEVER watch the next episode previews. Of course, I already learned that lesson from many other series too ^^ |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Higashi_no_Kaze said: Only? Most series end in 10-30 episodes. I got LoGH to episode like 28, when somebody died. And before that said person died, it was pretty boring stuff. And it's not like I want people to die in the show in order to be interesting, far from it. The atmosphere definitely changed tho after that,I just started the series but I have some thoughts on why people may drop it / hate it after only seeing 10-20 episodes or so. Anyways, unless the said viewers are completists, I don't see a reason not to drop something after 10-30 episodes. If someone found 1-20 episodes boring, are they seriously going to give more chances, based on what other people say? I know I don't. :\ But for me, I didn't really drop it. I just kind of stopped watching anime altogether starting from last year. |
Tachii said: Definitely. If they hear a convincing enough argument of course.If someone found 1-20 episodes boring, are they seriously going to give more chances, based on what other people say? In LoGH's case, the whole series change a lot after the first 20 episodes, and from then on it only keeps getting more intense with some quite shocking turns, that's something anyone who's seen it can attest too. I'd only find it natural for people to un-drop something if they hear that it gets a lot better after a while, I've done that a couple of times too. |
SanderRX said: You seem to be missing the fact that OVAs tend to have a tad bigger budgets than the TV series.If they kept pumping in OVA budgets for 110 episodes,for the duration 1988-1997,they were not playing it safe.A possible cost of full-fledged 110 OVA episodes far eclipses anything a TV company would demand for airing it. Wikipedia's late night anime article said: In most cases, a production committee (a group of several related companies) buys a time slot from a TV station. This process is known as brokered programming, and is similar to how infomercials are broadcast. Therefore, unlike ordinary programs, production companies are sponsoring companies as well. This way, TV stations can fill the time slots with low viewership, while production companies can advertise their products (anime DVDs) at a lower cost. Since a production’s purpose is to promote the title to fans, low ratings or a lack of sponsors is of little concern. Consequently, the number of late night anime is increasing. The fact that they rely on the sales of DVDs means that these anime are virtually the same as OVAs, except that they get a chance to be promoted. This is why "pure" OVA series have decreased rapidly. So...LoGH supposedly cost a lot to produce, and advertising it much more broadly wouldn't have cost much more. So why not do this? Could it be that I was right and that it was judged to lack general appeal? No way! Not only that,but you seem to be fogetting that LotGH started in the late 80's.Now remember what else was in the 80's,that's right,the great OVA craze that then died down somewhere in the later half of the 90's!You see,back then OVA format was far from the nerfed secondary support status of today.Direct-to-video market was a tad bit more important back then you know. No way indeed. Uh, maybe anime just didn't have the market to support as many television series as now. Here's the probable timeline, though: The 1960s: The anime medium was very unpopular, so anime had to have broad appeal to have a chance of making any money, so they were either aired on television or were, more commonly, movies, which are shorter and thus cheaper, all other things being left equal, since anything long but also too unappealing to air on television was simply not made, since it wouldn't have made money. 1983: The market had grown, and OVAs had become possible to profit from for less broadly appealing anime. The modern age: The market had become huge after the massive success of the Dragon Ball franchise, so niche anime could be aired on television, and OVAs tended towards being rather few episodes long (if longer then why not air them as one or more seasons?), making them harder to schedule (Furi Kuri), being bundled with DVDs as extras to boost sales (so many), or were effectively pilots for series (Read or Die). Yeah, abductive logic, I know. martin03345 said: Not quite the right answer there. Reinhard's struggle to make a quick decision has nothing to do with being a genius, it has to do with inner conflict. He knows it's wrong and goes against his morals, but he also knows it would be a great tool to use to finally wipe out the nobles that he greatly despises. Oberstein brings up the great and fair point that to achieve power, one needs to sacrifice and use the lives of other people to further pursue that power. This struggle to make a decision did not allow him to act quickly enough to prevent it. So show him having his inner conflict during his teens. There's no reason he wouldn't have thought about it a lot already by the time he was in his twenties. Oberstein shouldn't have had to bring it up to him for him to proceed to have an inner conflict about it. Reinhard was defined as a genius with a focus on politics and justice. I guess he just wasn't written well in this case. Oh well. And bullshit to you being able to make such a quick decision. You can sit here and claim that oh you would know how to act if put in that same position, absolute bullshit. Again, his intellectual ability has nothing to do with his indecisiveness here but it's the overall moral quandary on whether or not it is right to let people die to further his own goals of becoming a ruler. As you have in other posts, you completely IGNORED the fact that all political issues have multiple sides, perspectives that need to be examined carefully and at times can push people to make tough decisions that go against their own morals and views just to have a chance at a better future. Anyway like the others I'm done here. Bullshit to you. Give me a break, I never said that one decision was right and another was wrong. I said that I would have been able to decide quickly well before Reinhard was still unable to decide quickly. This is a fact; I've shared Oberstein's opinion for years. Many others share the opinion that the ends don't justify the means before they reach their twenties. Reinhard was defined as someone who would want to think about such things and come to a conclusion, something that geniuses are not half bad at doing. If he was still undecided by then or simply hadn't thought about it until Oberstein brought it up then he just was written that way so that viewers could identify with him due to him also suddenly being confronted with this concept and being unable to make a quick and sure decision. eyerok said: I know I'm breaking my word by posting this reply, but I cant help it. Its my last (hopefully) Daisuki-chan said: when you consider that being called snobs is canceled out by snobs calling me inferior or wrong (without even proving that quality objectively exists, that LoGH has general appeal (i.e. that its elements are ones commonly focused on in popular anime, for one example of what can be meaningful evidence), etc.). If I were to add my opinion, we cant know for sure if that is true. Why? because lotghs popularity has only begun to increase when it was subbed recently, which I believe cant be more than three years. But if you look at the growth of its popularity,you cannot say for sure that it doesn't appeal to anime fans as much or more or less than Gundam. We can only find that out if a couple of thousand more people tried it on this series (currently only 2299 or so members have it completed in their list, 330 dropped, 1395 watching (with numbers increasing every week), 3543 plan to watch ). Like I said, there are ways to find evidence supporting your case. If you can't find any, then the obvious default is reasonable to believe. The default is that an anime lacks broad appeal. Few anime have broad appeal. The other thing I mentioned is that three years since the completion of fansubbing is simply enough to gain far more popularity than LoGH did. Since LoGH didn't become popular it implies that it couldn't be advertised as appealing to most people via word of mouth (the way fansubbed anime become popular). This is in spite of its high rating, which is also an advertisement for it. Being niche isn't evil, but it does mean that people outside of the group of niche fans will simply often rate it lower. If not then it isn't niche in the first place. Its not like Lotgh fans don't like mainstream shows like CG, CLannad, FMA, haruhi, death note etc...they don't really have a 'niche' taste. In fact in most cases I've noted its the complete opposite. Sure if you take an averagre moe comedy loving anime fan who doesnt like Gundam or monster or Macross, there'd be a high probability that they wouldn't like lotgh either. But we cant know for sure that lotgh wont be loved as much as, say, as Gundam or FMA unless more people watch it. This isn't about LoGH watchers not liking popular anime. It's about it being popular to not happen to find philosophy/politics/history/space opera/slow pacing especially appealing. (Is there a more popular space opera than Vandread? I searched AniDB for anime tagged "space opera" and didn't find any more popular than it. Vandread isn't too popular on MAL, though...) Popular anime I mentioned often have some similarities with each other, and LoGH doesn't appear to share these similarities very strongly. Also, you just admitted that an average [derided] anime fan wouldn't like LoGH. Gundam is not one anime, and while FMA is two series, both have good ratings and broad appeal. Imagine what would happen to LoGH's rating if 75,000 voters appeared and all rated it eight. It would have a rating a good amount lower than either FMA series has. And what of all the people that wouldn't have liked LoGH? They wouldn't be giving it eights, that's for sure. Granted, many thousands would also give it tens and nines, but even ten thousand giving it sevens would counter all of them well enough, and then you have to factor in many thousands more giving it sixes, fives, and even more extreme low votes. I really find it hard to believe that it could be even near FMA's level if tons of people watched it. If this was the case then why isn't it a highly popular anime right now? Highly popular (i.e. broadly appealing) anime simply don't take more than three years from the time of full fansub availability to become much more popular than LoGH is. Another three or even ten years is not likely going to see LoGH become as popular as Gintama is, for example. but that's my two cents against yours. Lets just agree to disagree and just drop this already (its been going for 4 pages for Gods sake. FOUR PAGES for a shitty argument like this) as for lotgh fans being snobs - I and others have already given a reply that should be more than satisfactory. Again its my two cents against yours. Everybody has a different opinion. The best we can do is agree to disagree and walk away. It's not satisfactory, as it doesn't change the fact that these people are jerks. So they're not snobs to you. They are to me, and them being mean doesn't change, even if you respect their motivations. Becoming as bad as your opponents are to you just isn't excusable. Beyond that, I never sought out LoGH and trashed it (why would I when I liked LoGH?), but these personally offensive things were expressed in various threads, usually not about LoGH. LoGH threads are often even worse, because the snobs are all gathered together and appear to enjoy showing off their snobbery to each other. Of course this only matters if an opponent appears, no matter how neutral that opponent is when they ask why LoGH has such rating acclaim when they aren't that impressed. adding to martin's point: you'd be right, but only if lotgh was a 'third rate TV anime' (and no this is not a reference to CG, I swear!) I guess I'm a third rate human for being more of a mental and/or emotional (moral) prodigy than Reinhard was. Sorry, but geniuses think about stuff like that a lot, because it's just interesting, especially when it relates to a main purpose for your actions in life. Also, anyone who's read the C&C discussion would know why you're here. Its so obvious really...no matter what you say on the outside or even believe, you just cant 'forgive' the 'vocal snobs' who 'look down' on your favorite anime. This is what all this is about: "lotgh does not have mass appeal" (basically another way of dissing lotgh but trying not to give the appearance of it) and "lotgh fanboys are snobbish elitist" (being spiteful because they have completely opposite opinon(s) ). Knowing why I'm here without evaluating what I said calmly is just an emotional judgement. Whatever effigy you create to burn may inspire hatred against me, but not true knowledge. Why would I dis LoGH when there are both easier targets and anime I actually dislike or even hate that I could choose instead? I just don't like the snobbery, period! And you saying that they're spiteful hardly makes them better than being snobbish is. Either way, they are mean people. And while everything with even a little popularity or love has its snobs, vocal LoGH fans across various websites and threads seem to be snobs especially often. Also, they don't think that they have an opinion, but an objective judgement, which is what supports their snobbery, after all. I'd also like to add that its quite unusual for TV channels to air shows that have an unorthodox structure AND are so long in lenght. everything has to be tailor made and planned out into convenient 'slots'. Lotgh looks more like a show with an unorthodox structure,probably because the production team needed more flexibility in planning out and releasing the seasons, rather than be restricted by the demands of the TV stations. I might be wrong about this though. What unorthodox structure? I hope you don't mean LoGH's slightly increased episode length, which could easily have been modified for a television schedule. Why did they need more flexibility? TV stations don't have demands other than money (and not being illegal or bad publicity for them) in this case. If you have the money you could air one episode a year if you liked. LoGH was already made in seasons, so it's hard to imagine that it couldn't have be aired in normal ~13-week seasons (10 or 11 of them, of course not necessarily consecutively, were the total watching time not changed much), assuming there was the money (which would be provided depending on perceived demand and thus profit) to keep making them in a timely fashion, which was not a great difficulty to physically achieve at the time. Baman said: I might have agreed to the niche statement some years ago, but now, more and more people is starting to watch it just like you say. I've seen plenty of people with loads of high rated "mainstream" series on their list starting LoGH and ending up in the ep.110 discussion thread claiming it was one of the best they've seen. Again, a LoGH fan liking popular series doesn't imply that it would be popular to love LoGH. If LoGH's elements were popular then they should be demonstrably present in popular series, which conflicts with LoGH's commonly attributed unique status. burntlettuce said: I had to lol, I went to that C&C thread, and it was a pretty good read. I searched and Daisuki-chan said the word "Subjective" more than 20 times on one page. I really wanted to be on Daisuki's side, since I can kind of understand what she is saying. But after one post she doesn't have much of an argument, just repeats the same thing over and over again. Some people stray from the discussion too often for me to not have to rererestate things to them. In the end, how often an argument is repeated does not impact its worth or accuracy. You didn't explain what was incorrect with what I said (although you could attack the straw men that others created to stick to me), so I have no way of knowing if you are just disagreeing due to emotion (and not reason) or not. |
 If you're stingy then click on CLuClu! Please consider supporting the end of disenfranchisement on MAL. Purpose is subjective, therefore quality is subjective. |
Daisuki-chan said: Baman said: I might have agreed to the niche statement some years ago, but now, more and more people is starting to watch it just like you say. I've seen plenty of people with loads of high rated "mainstream" series on their list starting LoGH and ending up in the ep.110 discussion thread claiming it was one of the best they've seen. Again, a LoGH fan liking popular series doesn't imply that it would be popular to love LoGH. If LoGH's elements were popular then they should be demonstrably present in popular series, which conflicts with LoGH's commonly attributed unique status. How many pre-2000 anime series are popular? Seriously, if an anime was made before 2000 AND didn't air on American TV, it fall off the map. This is the main reason why LoGH is "not" popular. |
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Baman said: Ideally, yes. Given a good enough argument, people would change their opinions. But this is the Internet after all, eh?Tachii said: Definitely. If they hear a convincing enough argument of course.If someone found 1-20 episodes boring, are they seriously going to give more chances, based on what other people say? In LoGH's case, the whole series change a lot after the first 20 episodes, and from then on it only keeps getting more intense with some quite shocking turns, that's something anyone who's seen it can attest too. I'd only find it natural for people to un-drop something if they hear that it gets a lot better after a while, I've done that a couple of times too. |
Tachii said: Well, there are always some who can drone on endlessly while ignoring all arguments no matter how good they are. I pity them though, it's only pathetic to be ignorant only for the sake of being stubborn.Ideally, yes. Given a good enough argument, people would change their opinions. But this is the Internet after all, eh? |
| lol... wikipedia said: Since Legend of the Galactic Heroes was released directly to home video and not shown on TV first, it is technically an OVA (quite possibly the longest ever). However, it has since been shown on TV several times. ANN said: Originally the staff wanted this to be a TV series. However the novel was not well known at the time, the novel was long, and there were almost no TV anime series based on novels at the time so the TV planning division did not give LoGH the green light for TV broadcast. Thus, the staff made it into an OVA format. Only later, was it adapted into a TV format. its all settled now...man I'm so awesome... :P Daisuki-chan said: Like I said, there are ways to find evidence supporting your case. If you can't find any, then the obvious default is reasonable to believe. and the obvious default is obviously YOUR OPINION. Your whole argument is filled with assumptions from the very beginning and its really funny how you don't realize that. Like I said, everybody has a different perspective. Treating your own as the obvious default and rejecting others on the basis of being subjective (the irony that I was speaking of earlier) doesnt make your opinion any better than mine. And you saying that they're spiteful I wasn't talking about them when I said "being spiteful", I meant being spiteful 'towards' them. But of course, spite is too strong a word from your perspective. EDIT: I also do not agree with your "3 years is enough time" BS. I only knew lotgh existed 1 and half years ago. And it took me about an year or so to get down and watch it. If its lack of popularity is all that you have as "evidence" that it does not have enough mainstream appeal, nor the potential of it, than I must say that 'that's not enough' (I like that phrase of yours btw lol). Christopher Columbus, billy tipton, Van gogh, Bach - they were all relatively unknown and unappreciated during their life. But after they died, and after people discovered their true achievement, only then did they become so famous. I suggest that we should wait and see if your statement about mainstream appeal is true or not. I think 2-3 more years of time will be enough to settle that question mark. |
eyerokJun 1, 2010 2:22 PM
| "...our faces marked by toil, by deceptions, by success, by love; our weary eyes looking still, looking always, looking anxiously for something out of life, that while it is expected is already gone – has passed unseen, in a sigh, in a flash – together with the youth, with the strength, with the romance of illusions.” - Joseph Conrad ('Youth') |
| It seems someone's taking their circular arguments elsewhere. It's a shame that this thread is where it ended up. |
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Yojiro said: How many pre-2000 anime series are popular? Seriously, if an anime was made before 2000 AND didn't air on American TV, it fall off the map. This is the main reason why LoGH is "not" popular. I didn't realize that Initial D, Slayers, Kare Kano, Seikai no Monshou (a space opera!), Ah! My Goddess OVA, Golden Boy, Escaflowne, and Berserk were all aired on American television. Tachii said: Ideally, yes. Given a good enough argument, people would change their opinions. But this is the Internet after all, eh? Which argument? That vocal LoGH fans aren't often snobs (?~?), or that LoGH has broad appeal (based on what evidence, even if inconclusive?)? I was answering a question by expressing the latter's unlikelihood in my first post in this thread, and I mentioned the former because the vocal LoGH fan posters of course gave LoGH nothing but praise (sure, that's what's supposedly great, but part of greatness is also not being dragged down by problems, so mentioning those as well could have been helpful to others; for instance, I mentioned how my favorite anime doesn't start out great when I made my original statement on it in a thread) in the preceding pages, as is typical, and some of them made troll posts, which someone in particular even admitted to: Baman said: Protip, check people's favourites. It may save you from trolling. This just appeared to be typical ._. behavior from this group, so I felt like mentioning this (note that I said that all top ten anime have a high proportion of fanboys). Basically, the elitists or snobs often express the opinion (although expressed as a fact, which is why it is offensive) that, more or less, "Unless you like LoGH (or find it to have high quality), you have bad (or no) taste.". That sort of belief gets tiresome to see after the ~150th time seeing it, so I wanted them to prove it is a fact and not just an opinion. Baman said: Well, there are always some who can drone on endlessly while ignoring all arguments no matter how good they are. I pity them though, it's only pathetic to be ignorant only for the sake of being stubborn. Your pity in combination with your failure to explain what evidence there might be that LoGH would, for instance, be popular if it was released today (I know Tytania was a failure to most people, but even so it's only 2/3 as popular as LoGH is on MAL, which hates to watch older anime more than other anime rating sites do) is insulting. eyerok, get real. If being even somewhat popular was the default then over 80% of all anime wouldn't be as unpopular as they are. Also, your quotes only support my case. LoGH was just too obscure to be judged as having enough broad appeal. This was because the novel (was there only one?) was unpopular. Why might that be? Yeah, it all just comes back to the fact that without awards and such to boost it LoGH's type of story just isn't broadly appealing. That doesn't mean it's broadly anti-appealing, either, but it has to compete with appealing things for time and money. Anyway, LoGH has an effective award due to its rating on MAL, and yet it's still not more than seldom watched. I'm not sure how long LoGH has been in the top ten for, but it has likely been there for at least 26 months on AniDB, since it apparently entered AniDB's top ten when AniDB implemented a vote filtering method to reduce the effects of cheating, which was before I joined AniDB or even used it much. Even in spite of this and the fact that anything not recent (MAL's forte) has higher relative popularity on AniDB (due to its users simply on average watching far more anime than MAL users do on average, as well as apparently being on average older) than MAL LoGH is still unpopular there. If you don't consider them spiteful then what exactly is your explanation or justification for them coming down to the level of their opponents? You seemed to try to explain this before, so please don't now try to deny that this even happens. And why would I have spite for LoGH fans based on LoGH? I liked LoGH, and it's hardly wildly popular and thus "tarded out", if you think that could motivate spite from me (it couldn't unless I disliked it, but whatever). I'm not sure that reacting to the offensive things many vocal LoGH fans say all over the place should be considered spite. I didn't just randomly oppose them (and I don't oppose LoGH itself, either); they, as a group, but also individually, have repeatedly said offensive things. If you don't understand how being called wrong or bad or being "pitied" for valuing things like Code Geass or whatever else more than LoGH is offensive, when such things are subjective until proven otherwise (and that just keeps failing to happen), then you are probably just another snob yourself. If not then you should prove that such attacks or "pity" are somehow "justifiable" in an objective sense (i.e. starting from the laws of physics and/or logic, not from an opinion on what is and/or should be valued). If you don't want to then why bother claiming that they are not being snobs? It's very unconvincing. I find the idea that anime take 5-6 years to gain most of their popularity to be unsupported. There are simply so many anime that are popular enough after even one year (without being a sequel, etc.). These aren't anime that had aired on TV in the west by that time, so they have to be advertised by word of mouth, just like LoGH does. LoGH being old and not on American TV apparently isn't a dealbreaker for it, either (see above), so what's left? Anyway, just find some popular series that are "enough" like LoGH and I can evaluate the idea that LoGH may have main elements that have broad appeal better. Until then it's just another niche (and/or failed in the case of other unpopular anime) anime by default. Not everything can do a good job of being broadly appealing. Few things do. DeadBonesBrook, your statement is empty until you support it. Hearsay from people who dislike me or emotional thinking are not acceptable ways to gain knowledge of my words and motivations. |
Daisuki-chanJun 2, 2010 3:08 AM
If you're stingy then click on CLuClu! Please consider supporting the end of disenfranchisement on MAL. Purpose is subjective, therefore quality is subjective. |
| ok that's alright. I wont even attempt to reply to most of your arguments the way i would've normally because its like Baman said, talking to you is like talking to a wall. But I'll say a few things: 1. I never said that relative popularity is enough, and you actually went around my whole point and implied into it a meaning I never intended in the first place. I refuse to elaborate further because i know you'll go around in circles again with your part linguistic and part value-based analytical approach to argument, and your subjectively objective line of reasoning's 2. lotgh novel won a seiun award in 1988. So "fan boosted" ratings is not the only achievement of the lotgh franchise. 3. Yes the production team thought it was a risk, because lotgh if realeased on TV would have been the first of its kind of venture. But that doesn't necessarily mean that lotgh lacks popular appeal, or at least appeal on the same level as say gundam wing or Monster - in fact I believe it does have that level of potential appeal at least. Of course I dont have a solid piece of evidence to prove that, as you pointed out. But you dont have any evidence to prove your point as a statement of fact either. And you also overlooked the fact that it was aired on TV several times, so your statement that it does not lack the general appeal to even be aired on TV is complete BS ( I frankly find it offensive that you had the nerve to indirectly imply that lotgh didn't even have the appeal to be aired on TV AT ALL) My main point here: how can you say that something lacks general appeal when most people haven't even got a chance to discover it yet? Who are you to decide for the masses and equate your opinion to that of the general audience? Your point is still an opinion (albeit a plausible one) but it is no superior to my own judgment. ( And in fact this whole general appeal line of argument is based on this notion of ratings being representation of general appeal is wrong. Rating DON'T NECESSARILY reflect general appeal; and they definitely should not be taken as solid recommendations of what an avg anime fan would like or dislike. There are simply so many variations in people's tastes and perspectives, you just cant simplify them with rankings based on ratings. Your idea is only a narrow personal point of view AND NOT A STATEMENT OF FACT. ) Now this leads me to my last, and my main argument 4. Your reply to almost everyone shows that you just dont try to understand people. Look at your reply to Taichi...its just ridiculous. Its like you dont even try to understand what people are trying to say. From what I've gathered, its a mental or psychological problem of yours. You just dont feel what people try to say. All you care about is your own "objective" analysis. You have zero tolerance for opinions that are contrary to yours - and that's exactly why you're here; you're not a psycho bitch with an OCD out to get some 'revenge', no, but you just cant tolerate the fact that people have their own opinions that go against your perception of the truth (hence you criticizing the lotgh fanbase, and your replies to everybody who's been trying to give their own reasonable judgement on the matter). And you don't realize that you can be accused of the same things that you accuse these 'vocal fanboys' - you sound like a perfect snob who thinks others' opinions aren't worth a shit. No matter how strongly you deny it, you're even worse than these vocal fanboys. Your stance has been filled with contradictions from the beginning. Yes I admit we are all in a way emotionally attached to the subject and hence our opinions are subjective - but You yourself aren't as emotionally detached from this argument as you think or believe. Your perspective can never be free of your subjectivity, your sense of what the ratings should be, what lotgh represents to you, how the lotgh fan-base should be looked at...its all subjective. Stop trying to act like your perspective is an objective truth. Stop being such a snob. And just let go. |
eyerokJun 2, 2010 11:01 AM
| "...our faces marked by toil, by deceptions, by success, by love; our weary eyes looking still, looking always, looking anxiously for something out of life, that while it is expected is already gone – has passed unseen, in a sigh, in a flash – together with the youth, with the strength, with the romance of illusions.” - Joseph Conrad ('Youth') |
Daisuki-chan said: Yojiro said: How many pre-2000 anime series are popular? Seriously, if an anime was made before 2000 AND didn't air on American TV, it fall off the map. This is the main reason why LoGH is "not" popular. I didn't realize that Initial D, Slayers, Kare Kano, Seikai no Monshou (a space opera!), Ah! My Goddess OVA, Golden Boy, Escaflowne, and Berserk were all aired on American television. Let's see now... Kare Kano = Funimation Channel (USA) + manga ended in 2005. Escaflowne = YTV (Canada), Fox Kids (USA), AnimeCentral (UK) Slayers = Funimation Channel (USA), Colours TV (USA), AZN Television (USA) Initial D = Not in the top500, didn't air on TV... Berserk = Strong fanbase in the early 2000 + ongoing manga ranked #1 on MAL no less. Ah! My Goddess OVA, Ever heard of Ah! My Goddess (2005)? Yep a lot more popular than the original OVA. Seikei no Monshou is actually less popular than LoGH, so... Only Golden Boy is still standing, and don't know about it, so I can't say. |
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Daisuki-chan said: DeadBonesBrook, your statement is empty until you support it. Hearsay from people who dislike me or emotional thinking are not acceptable ways to gain knowledge of my words and motivations. What, you're suddenly adding me to another one of your tl;dr posts? I would be honored, if it weren't for the fact that I would most likely skip it rather than wade through its waters. Empty statement? About circular arguements? santetjan obviously had you in mind here as circular arguements is your absolute best trait. santetjan said: To be unequivocally clear: There will be no more personal attacks, no more offensive language and no more re-hashing of the same arguments, neither in the threads nor in the club comments. |
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Daisuki-chan said: What? ._. My post was in direct reply to Baman's. Not to yours. Not really sure what I'm supposed to say other than that.Tachii said: Ideally, yes. Given a good enough argument, people would change their opinions. But this is the Internet after all, eh? Which argument? That vocal LoGH fans aren't often snobs (?~?), or that LoGH has broad appeal (based on what evidence, even if inconclusive?)? I was answering a question by expressing the latter's unlikelihood in my first post in this thread, and I mentioned the former because the vocal LoGH fan posters of course gave LoGH nothing but praise (sure, that's what's supposedly great, but part of greatness is also not being dragged down by problems, so mentioning those as well could have been helpful to others; for instance, I mentioned how my favorite anime doesn't start out great when I made my original statement on it in a thread) in the preceding pages, as is typical, and some of them made troll posts, which someone in particular even admitted to: |
| stop feeding the troll plz? |
SanderRX said: Any evidence that this modern model was present in the 80's?Any evidence that they had this model for TV shows back then?Did they promote say...Zeta Gundam by VHS cassettes? Why air any anime on TV if there's no benefit to doing so? If there is a benefit then LoGH not being aired (qualified by other things I said) does imply something at least regarding the judgement of its creators and/or their financial sources' judgements. Or maybe because Japan was enjoying the economical bubble back then and producers could afford throwing money into things "that lacked general appeal",atleast moreso than now? If LoGH was just a bad investment then what I'm saying was likely simply makes even more sense. Infact,if you backtrack a bit,you will find that I objected to the idea of production of a large 110 episode OVA series being an instance of playing it safe.Granted if all these episodes are full-on OVA series with 100% OVA budgets(take note of the word "full-fledged" I had there).If they are less than that,then ok by all means. You haven't proven that LoGH's budget was anything special, although it would be better for your case if LoGH had a tiny budget, as that would make advertising it much less attractive. eyerok said: ok that's alright. I wont even attempt to reply to most of your arguments the way i would've normally because its like Baman said, talking to you is like talking to a wall. Declaring that I'm like a wall doesn't prove anything. Besides, even a "wall" could make reasonable claims. The messenger doesn't change the truth or accuracy states of the message. But I'll say a few things: 1. I never said that relative popularity is enough, and you actually went around my whole point and implied into it a meaning I never intended in the first place. I refuse to elaborate further because i know you'll go around in circles again with your part linguistic and part value-based analytical approach to argument, and your subjectively objective line of reasoning's I try to be objectively subjective (when I must be subjective, of course). I'm not clear on exactly what my misunderstanding is here, but you don't have to clarify what you meant if you want, although that doesn't mean that whatever your claim was can somehow make sense to me or displace whatever my claim was (or perhaps what you thought it was). 2. lotgh novel won a seiun award in 1988. So "fan boosted" ratings is not the only achievement of the lotgh franchise. Like I said, we're not talking about the franchise, but the anime. You can't prove both that the novel was adapted flawlessly and that award standards for anime are no different from those for novels (although the latter being the case raises the question of why the anime didn't win a similar award), so I'm not sure what this truly proves. Can't it be that people at the time (if not also now) simply want or can appreciate different things in novels than people (this time meaning the other group of people, who appreciate anime, not that there's no overlap, of course) want or can appreciate in anime? In any case, award-or-similar status effects have already been mentioned by me before. 3. Yes the production team thought it was a risk, because lotgh if realeased on TV would have been the first of its kind of venture. But that doesn't necessarily mean that lotgh lacks popular appeal, or at least appeal on the same level as say gundam wing or Monster - in fact I believe it does have that level of potential appeal at least. Of course I dont have a solid piece of evidence to prove that, as you pointed out. But you dont have any evidence to prove your point as a statement of fact either. And you also overlooked the fact that it was aired on TV several times, so your statement that it does not lack the general appeal to even be aired on TV is complete BS ( I frankly find it offensive that you had the nerve to indirectly imply that lotgh didn't even have the appeal to be aired on TV AT ALL) The first of what kind of venture? Certainly not a novel adaptation, which I already disproved. You don't have a solid piece of evidence, yes, but surely you can see that if being like LoGH in the ways that make LoGH unique or set itself apart from other anime had broad appeal, a desire for money would encourage and thus cause the creation of more anime with those elements, some of which would be popular, if those elements indeed did have broad appeal. I'm giving you the weapon with which to defeat me, but you haven't been using it. At least abductive reasoning (although it's more inductive at this point, given how much focus both money and media have received in this world for a long time) is better than emotional reasoning (reasoning based on a desire for something to be true). There's no way to disprove your reasoning, but my reasoning can be disproven. Which one is closer to being "objective", then? My main point here: how can you say that something lacks general appeal when most people haven't even got a chance to discover it yet? Who are you to decide for the masses and equate your opinion to that of the general audience? Your point is still an opinion (albeit a plausible one) but it is no superior to my own judgment. The default simply is to lack broad appeal. If it wasn't then most anime would have broad appeal and thus decent popularity, which is not the case. I'm not deciding anything for the masses, but interpreting my knowledge of their deemably "low quality" tastes and what they statistically express doing as likely explaining why LoGH is not that popular. Your judgement doesn't appear to be based on anything other than your desire that LoGH be seen as great, although you're free to come up with better reasons if you want. ( And in fact this whole general appeal line of argument is based on this notion of ratings being representation of general appeal is wrong. Rating DON'T NECESSARILY reflect general appeal; and they definitely should not be taken as solid recommendations of what an avg anime fan would like or dislike. There are simply so many variations in people's tastes and perspectives, you just cant simplify them with rankings based on ratings. Your idea is only a narrow personal point of view AND NOT A STATEMENT OF FACT. ) Like is appeal (the main form of appeal, even if you don't think that people need emotional motivations to take actions), so no. Variations are not something that I deny, but their variance from the true mean becomes proportionally smaller as the law of large numbers is more strongly applicable. Now this leads me to my last, and my main argument 4. Your reply to almost everyone shows that you just dont try to understand people. Look at your reply to Taichi...its just ridiculous. Its like you dont even try to understand what people are trying to say. From what I've gathered, its a mental or psychological problem of yours. You just dont feel what people try to say. All you care about is your own "objective" analysis. You have zero tolerance for opinions that are contrary to yours - and that's exactly why you're here; you're not a psycho bitch with an OCD out to get some 'revenge', no, but you just cant tolerate the fact that people have their own opinions that go against your perception of the truth (hence you criticizing the lotgh fanbase, and your replies to everybody who's been trying to give their own reasonable judgement on the matter). I was inferring who he was talking about by the fact that he was agreeing with an opponent of mine. If he actually meant that Baman was the one who wouldn't change his opinion then I failed to notice this. If it was just a vague statement then it should have been obvious how it would sound, given that it was in response to what Baman said, and Baman was talking about me, no? Yes, I don't feel what people are trying to say, because I'm not them and don't otherwise share their feelings often. I keep hoping to understand things and be understood, something that is ridiculously hard to achieve if feeling what people are trying to say is the focus. Also, I don't want people to feel what I'm trying to say, either. I want them to understand and accept or logically counter (I like learning) the likely validity of my claims, without attributing various motivations to me that I do not have. I think I've only said three main things in this thread, and two were merely my honest answers to questions. The third is about the existence of snobbery, and I don't see a way to prove that false unless standards of quality can be proven to be fully, ultimately, and fundamentally objective. Until then it remains ostensibly subjective (which only makes sense, as value judgements in general are subjective) and thus a totally weak justification for treating the standards and interpretations of others as inferior. I don't have zero tolerance for the opinions of others, which would be hypocritical, as this is the complaint I have of snobs. I have zero tolerance for facts that only exist for others and are continuously not proven, despite me pointing out that they aren't actually facts unless proven. If the opinion of vocal LoGH fans who were also snobs (note the difference between this and the idea that all vocal LoGH fans are snobs) was simply "I love LoGH and thus hate you!" then it would just be another fanboy statement that everyone would ignore the possible validity of. Instead the claim is "LoGH is objectively superior to various other anime, which means that your standards, due to valuing those other anime more than LoGH, are objectively inferior to my own.", which is sadly not opposed nearly often enough. If only there was a war between LoGH and Monster fans, for example (The Godfather fans would rape both of them by sheer numbers alone), people wouldn't apparently take such weak claims as actually being strong so often. Moreover, I could simply laugh back at them like I can currently in the case of fanboy statements without them continuing to appear at all valid to a nontrivial number of people. Basically, snobbery is a category that includes racism and sexism, and is just as arbitrary, and it's thus tiresome to see such equivalently crappy beliefs continue to be tolerated. After all, the only thing that shouldn't be tolerated is intolerance itself. ;p (Of course to "make sense" all emotional, physical, and material "attacks" would have to be defined as intolerance, but that's not really emotionally objectionable to me, even if reality isn't actually so simple.) And you don't realize that you can be accused of the same things that you accuse these 'vocal fanboys' - you sound like a perfect snob who thinks others' opinions aren't worth a shit. No matter how strongly you deny it, you're even worse than these vocal fanboys. Your stance has been filled with contradictions from the beginning. Yes I admit we are all in a way emotionally attached to the subject and hence our opinions are subjective - but You yourself aren't as emotionally detached from this argument as you think or believe. Your perspective can never be free of your subjectivity, your sense of what the ratings should be, what lotgh represents to you, how the lotgh fan-base should be looked at...its all subjective. Stop trying to act like your perspective is an objective truth. Stop being such a snob. And just let go. I can be accused, but the issue is whether I can be proven guilty. Most accusations of me appear to focus on straw man arguments, which hardly prove anything. My claims ("accusations") could theoretically be logically refuted, and I have said specifically how this could be done. I'm handing my opponents the weapon which could defeat me, but they simply don't use it, which is pretty weak, isn't it? Me sounding a certain way is likely only due to miscommunication and certain expectations or demands others have of me that serve their desires rather than my own. I'm demanding that facts be proven. Anyone can have opinions, and my opinions are not special. Neither are they objectively inferior, either, though. Of course I'm not emotionally detached in the sense that I have no emotional motivations for posting at all (I admit that I feel offended by the snobbery others repeatedly direct at me and others in general), but I try to focus on likelihoods and facts, not on the unsupported "you bad!" arguments that snobs and/or straw men creators use. Surely willingly proffering the means with which to prove me wrong in multiple of these arguments (snobbery/quality and elemental broad appeal) should allow you to infer that I am quite willing to be proven wrong, no? Like I said, I like learning. I'm quite ruthless with myself, too. I'm actually far, far more ruthless with myself than I am with anyone else, online or not. It's unfortunate that such unwavering focus on what is important to the truth status of my arguments is interpreted as being the behavior of a mean or willfully biased individual, but I don't know how else to prove anything. Yojiro said: Let's see now... Kare Kano = Funimation Channel (USA) + manga ended in 2005. Escaflowne = YTV (Canada), Fox Kids (USA), AnimeCentral (UK) Slayers = Funimation Channel (USA), Colours TV (USA), AZN Television (USA) Initial D = Not in the top500, didn't air on TV... Berserk = Strong fanbase in the early 2000 + ongoing manga ranked #1 on MAL no less. Ah! My Goddess OVA, Ever heard of Ah! My Goddess (2005)? Yep a lot more popular than the original OVA. Seikei no Monshou is actually less popular than LoGH, so... I said all, so yeah, not really. In any case, Seikai no Monshou had more clearly greater popularity on AniDB (although AniDB is likely biased in favor of the anime it both gave entry number one to and rates higher than other rating sites do, after all), so me not checking MAL can be considered to be an error on my part, although perhaps a happy one for me, as it only suggests that it's damn hard for a space opera to be popular. Anyway, I dispute that LoGH is truly more popular than Seikai no Monshou on MAL, because just planning to watch something doesn't give anyone knowledge of that thing, and removing plan to watchers gives Seikai no Monshou the lead, and removing less frequent voters (watchers and on-holders) results in a nearly two to one ratio in favor of Seikai no Monshou. Indeed, Seikai no Monshou has a good chunk more votes than LoGH does. This is, as previously mentioned, in spite of LoGH having had a rating that shined above most others for a long time. The number of votes is important, too, because of the following, which ties into my argument that LoGH likely lacks broad appeal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rating_scale#Rating_scales_used_online said: Sampling is one factor which can lead to results which have a specific bias or are only relevant to a specific subgroup. To illustrate the importance of such factors, consider an example. Suppose that a film's marketing strategy and reputation is such that 90% of its audience are attracted to the particular kind of film; i.e. it does not appeal to a broad audience. Suppose also that the film is very popular among the audience that does see the film and, in addition, that those who feel most strongly about the film are inclined to rate the film online. This combination may lead to very high ratings of the film which do not generalize beyond the people who actually see the film (or possibly even beyond those who actually rate it). Does that remind you of anything? ;p Only Golden Boy is still standing, and don't know about it, so I can't say. Berserk having broadly appealing source material doesn't explain how LoGH can have the same and yet fail, despite otherwise being equal to Berserk on every other aspect (although Berserk wasn't animated as well and didn't have a "solid" ending...). Initial D not even being anything special and still gaining some popularity is again unexplained. Golden Boy is unexplained. AMG is unexplained, since I already implied that it had general appeal. Maybe you're implying that the OVA is only known because of the 2005 series, but that's not proven and I think ANN would say otherwise, at least. ANN is just way out of date in general and the AMG OVA still has over six times as much popularity as LoGH does there. If you bring up LoGH actually being recent in fansub terms then you won't be able to well explain how the 2005 series is significantly more popular than the OVA. Basically, your theory that pre-2000 anime require American TV airings to become much more popular than LoGH has been disproven. Ckan said: It's called picking a fight, and oh so very much like what you and I are doing right now. Surely picking a fight to stop many others from picking fights with you and others for the 151st time (even if justice is reduced to being served by others picking fights with them, or even just exposing their weakness and thus shaming them, even if only privately ;p) is not as bad as many others picking a fight for the 150th time. I'm not Gandhi, and even he only succeeded because Britain was somewhat considerate of both Indians and other pressures, something that doesn't apply to snobs here. DeadBonesBrook said: What, you're suddenly adding me to another one of your tl;dr posts? I would be honored, if it weren't for the fact that I would most likely skip it rather than wade through its waters. Empty statement? About circular arguements? santetjan obviously had you in mind here as circular arguements is your absolute best trait. santetjan said: To be unequivocally clear: There will be no more personal attacks, no more offensive language and no more re-hashing of the same arguments, neither in the threads nor in the club comments. A circular argument requires cooperation from its arguers to exist at all. So no, I wasn't the only one he had in mind. More importantly, your negative remark implied that an argument being circular (at least on the part of the person one disagrees with, because that's not arbitrary) means that it's wrong or worthless. Anyway, CnC officially agrees with me on the subjectivity of standards of quality, and officially supports the simultaneous use of multiple standards among the group, too. This was confirmed by santetjan in messages to me. If you don't believe me then just ask him, or I could ask him if I could quote his words instead. The only issue left there other than snobbery (which is, given the previous, officially existent in the manner I spoke of according to Wikipedia's definition) is the definitions of qualitative terms. Tachii, my response was based on the assumption that you knew who Baman was talking about. I don't know if you knew that, though. Perhaps Baman can enlighten us as to whether he himself would "be" in that group "along" with me. ;p orzel286, I'm not a troll, but apparently just difficult to understand. |
If you're stingy then click on CLuClu! Please consider supporting the end of disenfranchisement on MAL. Purpose is subjective, therefore quality is subjective. |
| plz guys... |
| @ daisuki - It was never my intention to defeat you; this is not a fucking race to me. I have no need for your 'weapons'. And I dont have a desire to see lotgh being accepted by the masses or going mainstream, although the idea is attractive. I am simply content with the fact that all these"biased reviews" and ratings "boosters" helped me and many others discover and experience something like lotgh. TO the rest of your post: TL;DR Adios |
eyerokJun 3, 2010 5:58 PM
| "...our faces marked by toil, by deceptions, by success, by love; our weary eyes looking still, looking always, looking anxiously for something out of life, that while it is expected is already gone – has passed unseen, in a sigh, in a flash – together with the youth, with the strength, with the romance of illusions.” - Joseph Conrad ('Youth') |
Yojiro said: Let's see now... Kare Kano = Funimation Channel (USA) + manga ended in 2005. Escaflowne = YTV (Canada), Fox Kids (USA), AnimeCentral (UK) Slayers = Funimation Channel (USA), Colours TV (USA), AZN Television (USA) Initial D = Not in the top500, didn't air on TV... Berserk = Strong fanbase in the early 2000 + ongoing manga ranked #1 on MAL no less. Ah! My Goddess OVA, Ever heard of Ah! My Goddess (2005)? Yep a lot more popular than the original OVA. Seikei no Monshou is actually less popular than LoGH, so... Only Golden Boy is still standing, and don't know about it, so I can't say. I would like to add that not all people here are from US, UK or Canada. I’m not. Some of these shows, Escaflowne, Seikei no Monshou and Slayers were on TV in my country. |
| "The moment one sits down to think, one becomes all nose, or all forehead, or something horrid. Look at the successful men in any of the learned professions. How perfectly hideous they are! Except, of course, in the Church. But then in the Church they don't think. A bishop keeps on saying at the age of eighty what he was told to say when he was a boy of eighteen, and as a natural consequence he always looks absolutely delightful." |
Daisuki-chan said: DeadBonesBrook said: What, you're suddenly adding me to another one of your tl;dr posts? I would be honored, if it weren't for the fact that I would most likely skip it rather than wade through its waters. Empty statement? About circular arguements? santetjan obviously had you in mind here as circular arguements is your absolute best trait. santetjan said: To be unequivocally clear: There will be no more personal attacks, no more offensive language and no more re-hashing of the same arguments, neither in the threads nor in the club comments. A circular argument requires cooperation from its arguers to exist at all. So no, I wasn't the only one he had in mind. More importantly, your negative remark implied that an argument being circular (at least on the part of the person one disagrees with, because that's not arbitrary) means that it's wrong or worthless. Anyway, CnC officially agrees with me on the subjectivity of standards of quality, and officially supports the simultaneous use of multiple standards among the group, too. This was confirmed by santetjan in messages to me. If you don't believe me then just ask him, or I could ask him if I could quote his words instead. The only issue left there other than snobbery (which is, given the previous, officially existent in the manner I spoke of according to Wikipedia's definition) is the definitions of qualitative terms. So you admit to starting and maintaining circular arguements. It's nice to see you honestly answer something for once. |
| |
| orzel286, I already explained that you or others thinking that I am a troll (someone who says or does things that they don't really believe in for the sake of hurting something or hurting other people) is only due to you or others misunderstanding me. eyerok, don't claim things are false when you can't support either their unlikelihood or their falseness (the former is statistically unsupportable and the latter could be done (if you are right) by using the "weapon" I graciously handed to you out of my desires to be unbiased and also to gain knowledge). Lain666, I imagine American TV was brought up in the first place because it's much harder for an anime to be popular on MAL without any real American popularity. Also, anime that are popular in other countries but not in America or in non-Japan in general are often unpopular on MAL. DeadBonesBrook, if a circular argument is merely a repeated argument then you have not established how the former is wrong or worthless, as repetition does not change the truth of anything. I guess you're talking about circular reasoning, though, which I misunderstood. In any case, you haven't established that I have been using circular reasoning. I've proffered my acknowledgment that I have used abductive and inductive reasoning in addition to deductive reasoning. Others apparently are using emotional reasoning (aka faith), but haven't admitted to this or proven their own claims' likelihoods or truth states under more solid forms of reasoning. Anyway, I hope my misunderstanding being cleared up allows your misunderstanding that I believe that I'm using circular reasoning to also be cleared up. |
If you're stingy then click on CLuClu! Please consider supporting the end of disenfranchisement on MAL. Purpose is subjective, therefore quality is subjective. |
Daisuki-chan said: Lain666, I imagine American TV was brought up in the first place because it's much harder for an anime to be popular on MAL without any real American popularity. Also, anime that are popular in other countries but not in America or in non-Japan in general are often unpopular on MAL. I know, but it may explain why Seikai no Monshou has slightly greater popularity than LoGH. |
| "The moment one sits down to think, one becomes all nose, or all forehead, or something horrid. Look at the successful men in any of the learned professions. How perfectly hideous they are! Except, of course, in the Church. But then in the Church they don't think. A bishop keeps on saying at the age of eighty what he was told to say when he was a boy of eighteen, and as a natural consequence he always looks absolutely delightful." |
| I'm sorry, Daisuke-han, but I'm sorry to say tl;dr to that reply. Burn the fluff and rewrite that again. |
| |
| The popularity argument is ridiculous. LoGH does not have mass appeal because it deliberately does not try to be like most anime from its time and makes fun of such every now and then, especially on the good and evil fighting and main characters somehow coming back after being killed. But more importantly is availability. I don't know when Central Anime subbed LoGH or who subbed prior, but I don't think it was very long ago. Without decent subs (and some subs for this anime are downright awful), no one who doesn't understand Japanese is going to watch it. To even watch the series, you pretty much have to torrent it and not everyone wants to download a 110 episode anime which does not have a large enough fan base to brag about the series. Not until recently has LoGH been found subbed (and with good subs) on most streaming sites. So LoGH lacks qualities of immediate appeal in part of its age and in part of its style and it lacks (or lacked, rather) ease of access. Even in Japan, prior to DVD release, getting one's hands on the series must have been a pain in the ass and a lot of money. More and more people are starting to hear about the series and also watch it, but not long ago, there were close to zip who knew anything about it. To then compare LoGH on a scale of popularity to Slayers and whichever is completely and utterly moronic, and that goes without even saying. LoGH is starting to have hype, though the only place where I have so far seen a load of hype is on this site. It's the reason I watched it. But if someone hadn't put the Central Anime subs up of Season 1 on Youtube, I probably wouldn't have downloaded the complete series. However, I did. Not everyone wants to go through the trouble, though, of obtaining a series with a small fan base. Not when there are plenty of series that are newer and more 'fun' out there. Though I predict that within a few years, LoGH will have a thriving fan base that will grow. And that is when more people will be open to checking it out: primarily those who would not in present circumstances. There is no reason for LoGH to not be listed among the great classics of anime. And while LoGH is listed on THEM Anime Review amongst the five star series, I never even took the time to notice the title until looking at its ranking on this site. If LoGH wasn't very, very good, given the circumstances I mentioned concerning availability in and out of Japan, there would be absolutely no way LoGH would have what fan base it has and there would certainly be no chance for LoGH to be ranked in the top 3 on this site. |
nmanguy said: net_nomad said: But more importantly is availability. I don't know when Central Anime subbed LoGH or who subbed prior, but I don't think it was very long ago. Without decent subs (and some subs for this anime are downright awful), no one who doesn't understand Japanese is going to watch it. To even watch the series, you pretty much have to torrent it and not everyone wants to download a 110 episode anime which does not have a large enough fan base to brag about the series. Not until recently has LoGH been found subbed (and with good subs) on most streaming sites. Damn dude, there's at least 10 different Youtube copies of each episode, not to mention five more on Veoh and God-knows-where-else, all with craploads of views. Really? That's news to me. I am aware for Veoh, but Youtube? I sure haven't found any with quality subs past Season 1. In Japanese only, yeah. You must be implying I am blind or crazy. As for the recs, there are many anime fans who do not frequent this site. Yeah, the hype on MyAnimeList is crazy, but it's largely contained here. |
net_nomad said: As for the recs, there are many anime fans who do not frequent this site. Yeah, the hype on MyAnimeList is crazy, but it's largely contained here. Well, several other sites also do their part. In somethingawful's ADTRW, they have a LoGH thread that is several years old. Both 4chan's /a/ and /m/ have regular LoGH threads. And that's just the ones i visit. |
| Sage |
SanderRX said: However,after I saw eyerok's ANN quotation,I remembered that not all OVAs are up to that level and if LotGH is lesser than high OVA standard in terms of production value,then it all makes sense. well actually I think some OVAs are low budget experiments. Not the majority, but a sizable minority (its hard to believe that something like sweat punch, Trava or cat soup had high budget). And Lotgh does seem like a low budget production, especially in the first season its easy to notice the low quality animation and overall production value seems quite modest at first glance. But the production quality does improve a lot later on. Tachii said: SanderRX said: It's about the same as "it's boring" stuff.Question. Out of average complaints about this OVA series,how much of it is "OMG!It's so old!!!"? yeah...but I've noticed that majority of the people calling it boring are also the ones complaining about the animation Higashi_no_Kaze said: 1. Seeing the Movies (expect probably Golden Wings) beforehand makes it easier to enjoy the beginning of the series. I don't know how I would have experienced it without watching the movies, but I think it really did help me to get a better entrance to to series, because after the movies you already know the main characters a bit and that makes it easier to put the many other characters, that appear from the beginning on, in order. I have only watched 13 episodes so far, and as mentioned it seems a little bit draggy so far, but I would probably be more demotivated if it wasnt for the movies. ditto. The two movies (overture and my conquest) not only make for excellent intros but they can also show you what to expect from the series and whether you'll like it or not. A lot of people recommend my conquest is the sea of stars, but no one mentions overture to the new war, when in fact its a lot better introduction to the series than the first couple of episodes. Maybe that's because it doesn't have a review by any prominent MAL member recommending it as a good intro |
eyerokJun 8, 2010 8:42 AM
| "...our faces marked by toil, by deceptions, by success, by love; our weary eyes looking still, looking always, looking anxiously for something out of life, that while it is expected is already gone – has passed unseen, in a sigh, in a flash – together with the youth, with the strength, with the romance of illusions.” - Joseph Conrad ('Youth') |
SanderRX said: eyerok said: its hard to believe that something like Trava had high budget. Are you sure?TRAVA seemed to had good production values if I remember it right. good production value? I dunno..but It didn't strike me as having high production values, although I might be wrong |
| "...our faces marked by toil, by deceptions, by success, by love; our weary eyes looking still, looking always, looking anxiously for something out of life, that while it is expected is already gone – has passed unseen, in a sigh, in a flash – together with the youth, with the strength, with the romance of illusions.” - Joseph Conrad ('Youth') |
SanderRX said: eyerok said: SanderRX said: eyerok said: its hard to believe that something like Trava had high budget. Are you sure?TRAVA seemed to had good production values if I remember it right. good production value? I dunno..but It didn't strike me as having high production values, although I might be wrong Well I dunno,the artwork has decent enough shading and animation is very good most of the time Speedmaster is involved(like when Shinkai and Trava tell what's-her-name about Trava's military past and we see a sequence of him in the Speedmaster manuevering all over the place and kicking ass). The thing may or may not have high budget,but Takeshi Koike did a good enough job if you ask me. yeah I thought art style was great, although minimalistic (same with the sound and music). It wasn't like a cheap low budget stuff, but It didn't feel like it had high production values either. Madhouse sure knows how to be efficient with their resources, so there's a good chance I might be wrong here |
| "...our faces marked by toil, by deceptions, by success, by love; our weary eyes looking still, looking always, looking anxiously for something out of life, that while it is expected is already gone – has passed unseen, in a sigh, in a flash – together with the youth, with the strength, with the romance of illusions.” - Joseph Conrad ('Youth') |
SanderRX said: "eyerok" nice one, haha ;) |
eyerokJun 13, 2010 1:14 AM
| "...our faces marked by toil, by deceptions, by success, by love; our weary eyes looking still, looking always, looking anxiously for something out of life, that while it is expected is already gone – has passed unseen, in a sigh, in a flash – together with the youth, with the strength, with the romance of illusions.” - Joseph Conrad ('Youth') |
Lain666 said: I know, but it may explain why Seikai no Monshou has slightly greater popularity than LoGH. Either way, space opera is apparently not a huge draw... SanderRX said: I was initially startled by the notion that 110 OVA episodes are cheaper and "safer" than TV airing.Reason is that OVA episodes are generally more expensive than TV episodes.It is enough to compare contemprary TV animation and OVA animation to see which of them gets bigger budgets on average. This notion of mine was infact reinforced by the fact that I had been watching Macross Plus with it's outstanding visual quality,at the time I responded to your post. However,after I saw eyerok's ANN quotation,I remembered that not all OVAs are up to that level and if LotGH is lesser than high OVA standard in terms of production value,then it all makes sense. P.S and if this is true,then I'm a bit dissappointed that I'm not in for 110 issues of high visual quality.Who cares though,it got my favourite blog reccomendation attached,so it must be pretty good. P.S.S In terms of mass appeal,the entire MAL top is niche when compared to Sazae-san. LoGH looks fine to me, but I don't demand amazing visuals. I just wanted proof that LoGH had money poured into it, but for some reason wasn't advertised strongly to help make up for that. DeadBonesBrook said: I'm sorry, Daisuke-han, but I'm sorry to say tl;dr to that reply. Burn the fluff and rewrite that again. If I burn the fluff Brook will be unhappy! Anyway, if one paragraph is too long for you then you should just stop making claims. You won't be able to support them without writing paragraphs yourself. And since tl;dr is fine to say about a single paragraph you'd have to either accept that your claims were meaningless or be a hypocrite. tl;dr: Your claims default to being fluff until you do more than just make them. net_nomad said: The popularity argument is ridiculous. LoGH does not have mass appeal because it deliberately does not try to be like most anime from its time and makes fun of such every now and then, especially on the good and evil fighting and main characters somehow coming back after being killed. Being unpopular isn't bad, but some people want to think that LoGH is somewhat mainstream or something. I disagree with that. But more importantly is availability. I don't know when Central Anime subbed LoGH or who subbed prior, but I don't think it was very long ago. Without decent subs (and some subs for this anime are downright awful), no one who doesn't understand Japanese is going to watch it. To even watch the series, you pretty much have to torrent it and not everyone wants to download a 110 episode anime which does not have a large enough fan base to brag about the series. Not until recently has LoGH been found subbed (and with good subs) on most streaming sites. It was plenty long enough ago for a truly mainstream title to reach Gintama's level of popularity, for example. Obviously LoGH hasn't done this. 3 years is good enough. Anime peak in popularity (relative to the most popular anime) relatively soon after that. LoGH isn't like Death Note, which will take a while longer to peak because it's drawing in ultracasual and new anime fans. So LoGH lacks qualities of immediate appeal in part of its age and in part of its style and it lacks (or lacked, rather) ease of access. Even in Japan, prior to DVD release, getting one's hands on the series must have been a pain in the ass and a lot of money. How unjustified (from a neutral standpoint, not a "you're bad if you need or care about modern animation and effects" standpoint) is the effect of oldness upon popularity, though? I truly have no way of knowing, but it's surely not 100% unjustified. Looking at a picture on an anime entry's page probably can be enough to help people decide if they could like the animation style or not in some cases. Beyond that, there are cultural shifts to consider. Hamlet and the Iliad (verbatim, not adapted to modern cultural tastes) may have had broad appeal in their times, but they really don't seem to anymore. Tastes change, and that's another reason why older anime may be avoided more. Of course for one to not go into a rage at what I just said one has to accept that goodness is subjective. Call LoGH a Hamlet or whatever if you like, but yeah. Times change... Anyway, we can't know how extreme the reactions from some might be unless we rounded up hundreds of hardcore fans of battle shounen and moe and paid them to watch the whole thing. I imagine plenty of them wouldn't feel like it was quite that great. ;p More and more people are starting to hear about the series and also watch it, but not long ago, there were close to zip who knew anything about it. To then compare LoGH on a scale of popularity to Slayers and whichever is completely and utterly moronic, and that goes without even saying. If you can't even say why then you're not going to be very convincing to a rational thinker. Anyway, "not long ago" (by your standards for LoGH) Death Note wasn't fully fansubbed either, and now it's...the most popular anime here. Three years is just...long enough for popular things to become popular. Sure, Death Note is an extreme example, but lots of others exist, and even anime that will be forgotten in five years get up to 20% popularity. I'm not saying that LoGH will be forgotten, but it really has had enough time to gain most of its popularity by now. I just think that word of mouth has likely spread its appeal more or less normally, but that most people just see philosophy/politics/history/space opera/long/slow/old animation/no moe/no ecchi/no shounen or seinen battles/no shoujo or josei romance and decide to leave it to others to watch and possibly enjoy. ;p LoGH is starting to have hype, though the only place where I have so far seen a load of hype is on this site. It's the reason I watched it. But if someone hadn't put the Central Anime subs up of Season 1 on Youtube, I probably wouldn't have downloaded the complete series. However, I did. Not everyone wants to go through the trouble, though, of obtaining a series with a small fan base. Not when there are plenty of series that are newer and more 'fun' out there. It has hype on various sites, but what matters is what kind of hype it has. The nos I mentioned can't be hyped, which makes things difficult, especially when the things being hyped are uninteresting to many people. Though I predict that within a few years, LoGH will have a thriving fan base that will grow. And that is when more people will be open to checking it out: primarily those who would not in present circumstances. There is no reason for LoGH to not be listed among the great classics of anime. And while LoGH is listed on THEM Anime Review amongst the five star series, I never even took the time to notice the title until looking at its ranking on this site. If LoGH wasn't very, very good, given the circumstances I mentioned concerning availability in and out of Japan, there would be absolutely no way LoGH would have what fan base it has and there would certainly be no chance for LoGH to be ranked in the top 3 on this site. Thriving means what? Growing is meaningless except in terms of relative popularity, since the number of anime fans continues to grow, especially on MAL. Anyway, it has had a few years, which is enough to propel an anime all the way to #1 if it really has the appeal to do that, but it's still not very known. Anyway, I do see how it's in proportionally many plan to watch lists, but lots of those seem to have a ridiculous number of titles in them, so I'm not sure how many of those plans will really materialize in the end. Besides, MAL already predicts the future better than the present by including planners into stats, so I don't see what you're saying as being too likely. Very, very good is of course subjective, and I've already mentioned that it would be rated 8.75 if not for its length disenfranchising various MAL voters. That's still very good, but it's not top 3. But almost everything in the top 10 on MAL has some sort of boost to its rating, and LoGH is certainly no exception. I guess without any boosts for other titles TTGL, Code Geass, and Death Note would do much better in the rankings. There's also this, which is commonly accepted by statisticians (for logical reasons): Wikipedia's article on rating scale said: Sampling is one factor which can lead to results which have a specific bias or are only relevant to a specific subgroup. To illustrate the importance of such factors, consider an example. Suppose that a film's marketing strategy and reputation is such that 90% of its audience are attracted to the particular kind of film; i.e. it does not appeal to a broad audience. Suppose also that the film is very popular among the audience that does see the film and, in addition, that those who feel most strongly about the film are inclined to rate the film online. This combination may lead to very high ratings of the film which do not generalize beyond the people who actually see the film (or possibly even beyond those who actually rate it). Anyway, I already said LoGH was a good idea to watch for some people, but it's not Death Note or even Gintama. ;p |
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| haha where were you all this time Daisuki...I really missed you :P |
| "...our faces marked by toil, by deceptions, by success, by love; our weary eyes looking still, looking always, looking anxiously for something out of life, that while it is expected is already gone – has passed unseen, in a sigh, in a flash – together with the youth, with the strength, with the romance of illusions.” - Joseph Conrad ('Youth') |
| I was doing other things. Anyway, it's better for me if I don't reply all the time. I only "tl;dr"ed net_nomad this time. Hopefully this time I'm not misintepreted and painted as a hater and/or troll as is usual. |
If you're stingy then click on CLuClu! Please consider supporting the end of disenfranchisement on MAL. Purpose is subjective, therefore quality is subjective. |
| Just gonna say, that you can't compare Death Note and LOGh just because they both "got subbed 3 years ago". A new anime always gets attention. Especially on this site. There are news anouncements, series discussion thread, the fantasy anime league. Current animes are mostly overhyped (especially on MAL). But no one cares about a 20 year old anime that has just incidentally been subbed 25 years after being published. There is no advertisement, no recent threads about it, probably not even a news message. LOGH really lives from oral advertisement (if this is the correct term ^^). On the other hand, I was told about Death Note 2 years before i even joined the first slightly anime related website. So Death Note had the publicity and fame from the beginning, even outside the "anime world". LOGH on the other hand isn't even known by as much anime fans. Forcefully comparing them just gives off the feeling of a not well thought-out argument. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Daisuki-chan said: DeadBonesBrook said: I'm sorry, Daisuke-han, but I'm sorry to say tl;dr to that reply. Burn the fluff and rewrite that again. If I burn the fluff Brook will be unhappy! Anyway, if one paragraph is too long for you then you should just stop making claims. You won't be able to support them without writing paragraphs yourself. And since tl;dr is fine to say about a single paragraph you'd have to either accept that your claims were meaningless or be a hypocrite. tl;dr: Your claims default to being fluff until you do more than just make them. All I need to do is just quote just about anything of yours. Also, how am I going to be unhappy with you writting more succinctly? Your 'not-trolling' is failing if you've managed to irk some of the posters in this thread. |
DeadBonesBrookJun 17, 2010 7:41 PM
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Higashi_no_Kaze said: Just gonna say, that you can't compare Death Note and LOGh just because they both "got subbed 3 years ago". A new anime always gets attention. Especially on this site. There are news anouncements, series discussion thread, the fantasy anime league. Current animes are mostly overhyped (especially on MAL). But no one cares about a 20 year old anime that has just incidentally been subbed 25 years after being published. There is no advertisement, no recent threads about it, probably not even a news message. LOGH really lives from oral advertisement (if this is the correct term ^^). On the other hand, I was told about Death Note 2 years before i even joined the first slightly anime related website. So Death Note had the publicity and fame from the beginning, even outside the "anime world". LOGH on the other hand isn't even known by as much anime fans. Forcefully comparing them just gives off the feeling of a not well thought-out argument. LoGH had time while it was being subbed, too. "It's old" is just a bad argument. There are old anime that have some popularity. Eva ended before LoGH did. What about Akira and Nausicaa? Anyway, "no one caring" about LoGH can only help its rating, as people who aren't into what it has to offer aren't "sucked in" to watching it due to current popularity. You may feel whatever, but I've looked at anime statistics for years, and LoGH is simply very unlikely to ever become an even somewhat popular anime. It doesn't appear to have the word of mouth to do so, unlike Death Note and many other things which make sense receiving much more word of mouth when you consider what appeals to many anime fans. DeadBonesBrook said: All I need to do is just quote just about anything of yours. Also, how am I going to be unhappy with you writting more succinctly? Your 'not-trolling' is failing if you've managed to irk some of the posters in this thread. You actually didn't quote anything of mine in a way that proves that I'm trolling. "tl;dr: Your claims default to being fluff until you do more than just make them." Look at Brook (not DeadBonesBrook) and think of what's fluffy about him, and how he'd feel about it being burned. Of course I'm going to irk snobs (who troll or flame me repeatedly in the first place with their lies). That doesn't make it trolling or even flaming. The likely and most plausible truth just hurts some of them. I'm so sorry that I won't give into weird ideas like LoGH having broad appeal with absolutely zero evidence of such. I've told people how they could find evidence, but they don't do it, I assume because they know that it doesn't likely exist. The only "LoGH-like" anime I can think of is Tytania, but that failed to gain much of an audience. Space operas aren't very popular as anime, either. Vandread had a lot of other things in it that helped broaden its appeal. LoGH has an uncommon style in anime, and it hasn't been copied much or managed to be proven to have broad appeal that I know of, so there's no reason to believe that it does. I await evidence, as always. |
If you're stingy then click on CLuClu! Please consider supporting the end of disenfranchisement on MAL. Purpose is subjective, therefore quality is subjective. |
| Hahah here we go again with "lotgh doesn't have broad appeal!" bullshit - WHO CARES IF IT DOESN'T HAVE!? DOES THIS PROVE ANYTHING!? So guys - no further replies for retarded-chan beyond this post, k? You really DON'T need to feed this troll :| |
Daisuki-chan said: Higashi_no_Kaze said: Just gonna say, that you can't compare Death Note and LOGh just because they both "got subbed 3 years ago". A new anime always gets attention. Especially on this site. There are news anouncements, series discussion thread, the fantasy anime league. Current animes are mostly overhyped (especially on MAL). But no one cares about a 20 year old anime that has just incidentally been subbed 25 years after being published. There is no advertisement, no recent threads about it, probably not even a news message. LOGH really lives from oral advertisement (if this is the correct term ^^). On the other hand, I was told about Death Note 2 years before i even joined the first slightly anime related website. So Death Note had the publicity and fame from the beginning, even outside the "anime world". LOGH on the other hand isn't even known by as much anime fans. Forcefully comparing them just gives off the feeling of a not well thought-out argument. LoGH had time while it was being subbed, too. "It's old" is just a bad argument. There are old anime that have some popularity. Eva ended before LoGH did. What about Akira and Nausicaa? Anyway, "no one caring" about LoGH can only help its rating, as people who aren't into what it has to offer aren't "sucked in" to watching it due to current popularity. You may feel whatever, but I've looked at anime statistics for years, and LoGH is simply very unlikely to ever become an even somewhat popular anime. It doesn't appear to have the word of mouth to do so, unlike Death Note and many other things which make sense receiving much more word of mouth when you consider what appeals to many anime fans. Okay for you I'm gonna explain the "It's old" argument in full detail. Hm first of all to make something clear. I do not think that popularity is solely (maybe even less than 50%) based on how good anything is. The Rest is Luck and coincidence and advertisement. If you really think popularity and how good something is are directly proportional then we end this discussion right here because I'm arguing with that conviction in mind. Accepting this there are a ton of reasons why LOGH is less popular than Nausicaa, Eva or Akira. First of all Nausicaa and Akira are standalone movies and animated movies have it easier to get accepted/popular in western countrys than series. (I've never seen any anime series on german TV (not counting MTV) but I've seen quite many anime movies). Eva on the other Hand was very popular from the beginning, because (repeating myself) things DO get more attention when they are airing and are advertised (if you don't agree common sense doesn't seem to be strong in you). Once they are popular thex will not lose that popularity so soon, especially with material still airing. That's why Eva is still popular. I'm not saying ONLY because of that, but I'm definitely saying ALSO because of that. Now let's look at LOGH. It never aired on TV, so there is very little chance people just "saw it by accident". Mostly people who knew about it in the first place would buy it. OVAs are just not as easily popular as TV series (the first 100 most popular entries on this site contains only 2 OVAs, one of them ranking 98th and currently airing (Hellsing Ultimate) (By the way I would be very interested about some data concerning the popularity of LOGH in Japan) There was also no immediate attention in other countries like it happens with Miyazaki movies for example. Casting the content of the series away the initial situation was just not the same. I'ts like telling two equally (let's just assuma Eva is equally good) fast runners to race against each other. But you chain one of them down with some weights. To even compare he would have to be multiple times better than the other one. Besides that, you didn't really disprove my argument (an airing anime gets more attention than other animes which aired years ago, co comparing LOGH to Death Note is stupid), you just talked about other stuff like popularity in general. I never read your older long posts but I at least thought you would react to arguments, not talking your way past them. Your last sentence is of course untrue/stupid too. the word of mouth concerning death note is just way more present, because it just aired 3 years ago. Just take a look to the series discussion topics on this site and you'll see currently airing ones have way more posts (=attention) than animes that even aired 1 or 2 years before this site started. Also many people on this site have seen Death Note when it was airing (which is natural) but I doubt you can say the same thing about LOGH (simply because back then NO western people saw it while it was airing, except maybe they could speak japanese very well and lived in japan). To sum it up: - OVAs are not as easily popular as Movies and TV series. - Something currently airing gets more attention than series that aired years ago. - Popularity does not properly reflect the potential of a series. - You can't say the initial situation was the same for LOGH or Death Note/Eva/whatever current anime TV series concerning potential popularity. - This combined with the fact that it only got adequatly subbed three years ago gives more than enough reasons why LOGH would not be that popular eben if it were as great as we all say it is. - Mind you that none of my arguments has anything to do with contents, it's just logical reasoning, common sense and talk about terms and definitions. LOGH could be the worst or the best piece of anime ever and my arguments would not lose viability. To end this wall of text I'll say that I don't even care about popularity or broad appeal. If you look at this season or the last, the most popular animes are shitloads of ecchii/moe/loli stuff which I really, really don't care about. But there are other series I enjoyed who didn't focus on that and are still popular. Like Code Geass (which I also loved and am still loving). And unless most of the people who enjoyed it are fangirls who only watched because "Lulu is so pretty and Lulu x Suzi is so gonna happen *fangirlish faint*" they may have liked it because of the same reasons I did (Plot and characters). Okay, looking at this last paragraph now I'm seeing that most people probably didn't like the same things about CG than me ^^. I guess it's all about an ultimate power, mechas, action and pretty characters, the plot etc being a nice sidekick :P. Still that doesn't matter, because I would suggest it to anyone who cares about intelligent, well-thought-out plots and character in a series. Because it WILL enrich their lives and thoughts. The problem is, many seem to pretend to do, but actually have other priorities when watching (like art, action, ecchi or pacing). orzel286 said: Hahah here we go again with "lotgh doesn't have broad appeal!" bullshit - WHO CARES IF IT DOESN'T HAVE!? DOES THIS PROVE ANYTHING!? So guys - no further replies for retarded-chan beyond this post, k? You really DON'T need to feed this troll :| Sry, but Trolls-in-growth can develop to real ugly creatures when left alone (only eating what's bad for them etc.) so I'll feed it for now ^^ |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Daisuki-chan said: You actually didn't quote anything of mine in a way that proves that I'm trolling. "tl;dr: Your claims default to being fluff until you do more than just make them." Look at Brook (not DeadBonesBrook) and think of what's fluffy about him, and how he'd feel about it being burned. Of course I'm going to irk snobs (who troll or flame me repeatedly in the first place with their lies). That doesn't make it trolling or even flaming. The likely and most plausible truth just hurts some of them. I'm so sorry that I won't give into weird ideas like LoGH having broad appeal with absolutely zero evidence of such. I've told people how they could find evidence, but they don't do it, I assume because they know that it doesn't likely exist. The only "LoGH-like" anime I can think of is Tytania, but that failed to gain much of an audience. Space operas aren't very popular as anime, either. Vandread had a lot of other things in it that helped broaden its appeal. LoGH has an uncommon style in anime, and it hasn't been copied much or managed to be proven to have broad appeal that I know of, so there's no reason to believe that it does. I await evidence, as always. Talk to me. Not about me, not about the character I use as my avatar. Don't draw away from the conversation with stupid comments like that when I'm expecting a serious reply. I didn't quote anything because I only said I could if I wanted to. Anyone walking into this thread can come to that conclusion. Except you. I have no idea why. Of course LOGH isn't popular. It was an OVA. It went direct to VHS upon first release. It doesn't have broad appeal either. Politics and Heavy Dialogue? Things like that never hook the masses. Warfare and Terrorism (Geass, Gundam 00) always seem to be done well so long as it's done as flashy as possible. |
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| okay I don't get it?......what are you people really arguing about.....I've been skimming through this thread and I just don't get it..... daisuki is saying that LotGH desn't have a broad appeal....and well yeah it's true....and it looks like all of the people replying to daisuki is saying the same thing and adding the fact that popularity is not equal to how good an anime is.....so what's the deal daisuki?......why are you still doing this?.....from the looks of it you are a troll....eventhough you're saying that you aren't....and what's the deal everyone?....why are you still trying to argue with daisuki?....eventhough you all know that you'll never agree on this.... so yeah this arguement is pretty much going nowhere......just a bunch of walls of text....... ...rNr... |
| "In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same." |
orzel286 said: Hahah here we go again with "lotgh doesn't have broad appeal!" bullshit - WHO CARES IF IT DOESN'T HAVE!? DOES THIS PROVE ANYTHING!? So guys - no further replies for retarded-chan beyond this post, k? You really DON'T need to feed this troll :| Sure, retarded286. Apparently some people care if it doesn't have broad appeal, because they keep claiming it does without offering any evidence at all. If one of the two of us is a troll, it is you. Higashi_no_Kaze said: Okay for you I'm gonna explain the "It's old" argument in full detail. Hm first of all to make something clear. I do not think that popularity is solely (maybe even less than 50%) based on how good anything is. The Rest is Luck and coincidence and advertisement. If you really think popularity and how good something is are directly proportional then we end this discussion right here because I'm arguing with that conviction in mind. Advertisement isn't just luck and coincidence, though. Neither is what people pour lots of money and time into. Reality punishes those who are irrational with their money and time. Also, I never said goodness is related to popularity. But there's a clear correlation between appeal and popularity. The average rating of a group of anime rises as that group becomes more popular (within the overall group) and thus smaller. The floor rating also rises by a lot (and not just to some general level that would be statistical noise). These are just facts. Anyway, this is typical of my opponents. They assume I hate LoGH or am just trolling. That's just their bias, though. Accepting this there are a ton of reasons why LOGH is less popular than Nausicaa, Eva or Akira. First of all Nausicaa and Akira are standalone movies and animated movies have it easier to get accepted/popular in western countrys than series. (I've never seen any anime series on german TV (not counting MTV) but I've seen quite many anime movies). Eva on the other Hand was very popular from the beginning, because (repeating myself) things DO get more attention when they are airing and are advertised (if you don't agree common sense doesn't seem to be strong in you). Once they are popular thex will not lose that popularity so soon, especially with material still airing. That's why Eva is still popular. I'm not saying ONLY because of that, but I'm definitely saying ALSO because of that. Now let's look at LOGH. It never aired on TV, so there is very little chance people just "saw it by accident". Mostly people who knew about it in the first place would buy it. OVAs are just not as easily popular as TV series (the first 100 most popular entries on this site contains only 2 OVAs, one of them ranking 98th and currently airing (Hellsing Ultimate) (By the way I would be very interested about some data concerning the popularity of LOGH in Japan) There was also no immediate attention in other countries like it happens with Miyazaki movies for example. Casting the content of the series away the initial situation was just not the same. I'ts like telling two equally (let's just assuma Eva is equally good) fast runners to race against each other. But you chain one of them down with some weights. To even compare he would have to be multiple times better than the other one. Like I said, it's not just random what becomes popular. This is especially the case for fansubbed anime in the west, which rely on word of mouth. The reason there are so few popular OVAs is that their producers knew they could make more money by turning their anime into series (if possible, and it certainly was for LoGH) and advertising them on TV. LoGH's producers didn't feel like they'd profit more by doing that. Who should I trust (especially when there's evidence against LoGH having broad appeal and no evidence for it), LoGH's producers or random people online? Airing is helpful, yes, but it doesn't explain why LoGH is still so unpopular after three years of full fansubbing. Anime just don't take way longer to gain most of their popularity. This is just how it is...I've looked at anime statistics. There's no use denying this. You (or someone) said (paraphrased) "just another three years", but what will you say when LoGH doesn't have 25% or likely even 10% popularity by then? As for advertising, we're talking about fansubbed anime in the west. Death Note's advertisement was word of mouth. It was LATER aired on TV in the west because it was proven to simply have THAT MUCH broad appeal. I highly doubt it was just idling until then. Also, you can't explain other things like Haruhi or TTGL under that reasoning. Word of mouth is simply king for people who use sites like MAL. LoGH has it, but only within a minority. Others aren't swayed because they realize that LoGH just isn't their type of anime. There's nothing wrong with that, but that's just how it is. Besides that, you didn't really disprove my argument (an airing anime gets more attention than other animes which aired years ago, co comparing LOGH to Death Note is stupid), you just talked about other stuff like popularity in general. I never read your older long posts but I at least thought you would react to arguments, not talking your way past them. Sorry, but you're making a positive claim (that LoGH has broad appeal). You have to prove that it does somehow. There's no reason to think that it does, since most anime don't. Most anime lose money, too. Probably not LoGH, of course, but I'm just explaining that not many anime have broad appeal. The default is to not have it. The producers didn't think LoGH would have it, so they didn't air it on TV. It doesn't have the style or elements that more popular anime do, and no one has provided me with examples of LoGH-like anime that have much popularity, either. There's simply no reason to believe that LoGH has broad appeal. You also haven't shown me any examples of anime that became popular six years after being fansubbed but not after three. Without any examples there's no reason to believe that your stance is due to anything but wishful thinking. You may say that your stance isn't disproven, but that's not a good reason to agree with it, especially in the face of lots of other evidence against it. Your last sentence is of course untrue/stupid too. the word of mouth concerning death note is just way more present, because it just aired 3 years ago. Just take a look to the series discussion topics on this site and you'll see currently airing ones have way more posts (=attention) than animes that even aired 1 or 2 years before this site started. Also many people on this site have seen Death Note when it was airing (which is natural) but I doubt you can say the same thing about LOGH (simply because back then NO western people saw it while it was airing, except maybe they could speak japanese very well and lived in japan). Hey, whatever. Eva aired longer ago. Yes, it was on TV. That's because it had broad appeal. Money. It affects things, and things affect it. LoGH has hardcore fans. It doesn't have broad appeal. You have to convince me that my entirely rational idea is wrong, not vice versa. Sorry, but our ideas are just not equal. Mine is based on which anime are created and which ones make more money. These are real things. LoGH being "good" is subjective. Find me LoGH-like anime with reasonable popularity if you can. Until then you are just being silly. To sum it up: - OVAs are not as easily popular as Movies and TV series. - Something currently airing gets more attention than series that aired years ago. - Popularity does not properly reflect the potential of a series. - You can't say the initial situation was the same for LOGH or Death Note/Eva/whatever current anime TV series concerning potential popularity. - This combined with the fact that it only got adequatly subbed three years ago gives more than enough reasons why LOGH would not be that popular eben if it were as great as we all say it is. - Mind you that none of my arguments has anything to do with contents, it's just logical reasoning, common sense and talk about terms and definitions. LOGH could be the worst or the best piece of anime ever and my arguments would not lose viability. To sum it up: - Of course they aren't; if they were their producers WOULD'VE AIRED THEM ON TV! - Yes, but this isn't evidence supporting your case at all. You need to find examples of anime that become popular six years after fansubbing but not three for this to mean anything at all. - Potential is what? At least popularity is a real thing, unlike subjective "quality". Find me something real to demonstrate that LoGH will prove to have broad appeal in the future. Yes, that means proving that LoGH will become significantly more popular. We have no other way to measure the breadth of appeal. So go and find LoGH-like anime that are popular. Do it or continue to be silly. - Three years after complete fansubbing is fine. Find me things that took six years but didn't make it in three. I don't think it's very normal at all, but I've looked at anime statistics. You just want this idea of yours to be true, it seems. - Nonetheless, you have zero evidence supporting your claim that LoGH has broad appeal. If that's not your claim then what is it? That there's always a margin of error? Sure, but it's hardly likely to be on the order of hundreds of percent. If that was the case then there should be virtually no correlation between rating and popularity, which is false. To end this wall of text I'll say that I don't even care about popularity or broad appeal. If you look at this season or the last, the most popular animes are shitloads of ecchii/moe/loli stuff which I really, really don't care about. But there are other series I enjoyed who didn't focus on that and are still popular. Like Code Geass (which I also loved and am still loving). And unless most of the people who enjoyed it are fangirls who only watched because "Lulu is so pretty and Lulu x Suzi is so gonna happen *fangirlish faint*" they may have liked it because of the same reasons I did (Plot and characters). Okay, looking at this last paragraph now I'm seeing that most people probably didn't like the same things about CG than me ^^. I guess it's all about an ultimate power, mechas, action and pretty characters, the plot etc being a nice sidekick :P. Still that doesn't matter, because I would suggest it to anyone who cares about intelligent, well-thought-out plots and character in a series. Because it WILL enrich their lives and thoughts. The problem is, many seem to pretend to do, but actually have other priorities when watching (like art, action, ecchi or pacing). Well, if you don't care you could not make unsupported claims. I wouldn't challenge them, then. Code Geass is good to me, too, even if some people like to make all Code Geass fans out to be fanboys or fangirls. *pokes some other people* Sry, but Trolls-in-growth can develop to real ugly creatures when left alone (only eating what's bad for them etc.) so I'll feed it for now ^^ I guess you're a fool in full bloom, then, because I'm not a troll. I'm an anti-snob and anti-faith person. DeadBonesBrook said: Talk to me. Not about me, not about the character I use as my avatar. Don't draw away from the conversation with stupid comments like that when I'm expecting a serious reply. You make Brook sad. Just because we are having a disagreement means I can't make a joke about Brook's hair being fluffy? >_> I didn't quote anything because I only said I could if I wanted to. Anyone walking into this thread can come to that conclusion. Except you. I have no idea why. There's no reason to believe that you can, though. Making a claim isn't the same as proving it. And of course snobs walking into this thread will be happy to pass me off as a troll. They're snobs; what else could be expected? Of course LOGH isn't popular. It was an OVA. It went direct to VHS upon first release. It doesn't have broad appeal either. Politics and Heavy Dialogue? Things like that never hook the masses. Warfare and Terrorism (Geass, Gundam 00) always seem to be done well so long as it's done as flashy as possible. I agree, but some people want to claim otherwise without having any evidence for it. I'm not wrong for refusing to accept this. JP_rNr said: okay I don't get it?......what are you people really arguing about.....I've been skimming through this thread and I just don't get it..... daisuki is saying that LotGH desn't have a broad appeal....and well yeah it's true....and it looks like all of the people replying to daisuki is saying the same thing and adding the fact that popularity is not equal to how good an anime is.....so what's the deal daisuki?......why are you still doing this?.....from the looks of it you are a troll....eventhough you're saying that you aren't....and what's the deal everyone?....why are you still trying to argue with daisuki?....eventhough you all know that you'll never agree on this.... so yeah this arguement is pretty much going nowhere......just a bunch of walls of text....... ...rNr... That fact wasn't available to add, because I think quality is in the eye of the beholder, so of course being popular doesn't mean being good. As for rating, though, well...not appealing generally is a negative. Say they have "bad taste" if you like, but I don't see why LoGH's rating would stay above Clannad ~After Story~'s or even FMA (2003)'s if enough people were forced to watch it (or were forced to watch enough to not be disenfranchised on MAL; something that already boosts LoGH's rating by about 0.34 points). |
If you're stingy then click on CLuClu! Please consider supporting the end of disenfranchisement on MAL. Purpose is subjective, therefore quality is subjective. |
Daisuki-chan said: That fact wasn't available to add, because I think quality is in the eye of the beholder, so of course being popular doesn't mean being good. As for rating, though, well...not appealing generally is a negative. Say they have "bad taste" if you like, but I don't see why LoGH's rating would stay above Clannad ~After Story~'s or even FMA (2003)'s if enough people were forced to watch it (or were forced to watch enough to not be disenfranchised on MAL; something that already boosts LoGH's rating by about 0.34 points). oh so that's what this is all about....you just can't take it.....you just can't the fact that LotGH has a higher rating than animes like FMA, CLannad AS, CG 1 & 2 etc. and you go on telling people off about LotGH.....well I see hater when I see one.....and you're one of them....and as for ratings, hell I could care less for them....but I do owe the ratings if it wasn't for LotGH being rated so high I would have never tried watching it....and plus how can a lot of people know about LotGH when it doesn't even have any exposure to the media?......so I highly doubt a lot of people know about it......and as for forcing them to watch it.....I highly doubt they'll say yes and watch it right off the bat....just the title alone is enough to put anyone off.....first time I heard about LotGH, I said to myself....how can an anime called LotGH be good?..... and bad taste?......hey I happen to like Clannad AS and I thought FMA was awesome too.....and you're saying I have bad taste?...you're a snob >.< ...rNr... |
| "In every age, in every place, the deeds of men remain the same." |
| Okay I only read like 2 or 3 sentences of daisukis post yet, but what I was saying was already ignored or misinterpreted 2 times and I have to go now so I'll just keep my spot warm here and edit later. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
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