Fate/Zero 2nd Season Episode 3 Discussion

Xayoz said:

Evil is a matter of perspective.
Killing you opponents in the grail war is of course expected.
In the current case tho, killing Kayneth and Sola who posed no immediate threat while promising them safe passage can certainly be considered 'evil', even if it was a smart move in the long run.

That particular matter aside.
Kiritsugu is the sort of guy who wold stab his father in the back to save a hundred strangers.
Logcial? Yes.
Acceptable? Not for me.

ataraxial said:
Also, you're saying that Kiritsugu would make a certain choice in your indefinitely defined scenario without any justification. Please remedy this.

Xayoz said:

No. I am pointing out something Kiritsugu did in the past.

Xayoz said:

No. I am pointing out something Kiritsugu did in the past.

Topgunuk69 said:

You don't think it was acceptable in that situation?

Have you even read the light novel?

ataraxial said:

I like both Lancers a lot because they are much more tactical servants. They are the most agile, but not the most powerful. Their noble phantasms are less about destruction and over-powering the enemy than about finding the right opportunity to secure an effective and efficient kill (excluding Gae Bolg's Anti-Army mode, of course). It takes a lot of strategy and cunning in order to use a Lancer-class servant properly, and Diarmuid is a better example of this than Cu Chulainn is. He has two noble phantasms, and both of them are passive in nature. Which, in my opinion, is really quite cool. Just taking his first battle with Saber for example - the fact that he was able to wound her so severely while not being nearly as powerful of a servant as she is nor have nearly as powerful of a noble phantasm as she has is quite impressive.

Xayoz said:
I don't think details are relevant here tho. The fact of a matter is - Kiritsugu at this point believes in the 'greater good'. That killing one is inherently justified if it saves many. I don't agree with that.
But indeed, perhaps we should leave that discussion for after the series has ended to avoid further spoilers.

Xayoz said:

Topgunuk69 said:

LunarMoon said:
The preview images for episode 17 have been released.

http://seventhstyle.com/2012/04/25/fatezero-episode-17-pre-release-images/

BloodRequiem said:
ohhhhh
just saw ep 17 preview pics
kirei
that smile
those eyes
seriously...
making me question my sexuality
whys he so hot?

ataraxial said:

The way he kills is cruel only if, like you said, you think that Kayneth and Sola-Ui would go on happily and never care about Kiritsugu after Kayneth has fulfilled his part of the geis. Unless you have a problem with that part as well - after all, the whole point of Kiritsugu setting it up the way he did is because he didn't want to risk the consequences of Saber fighting Lancer. I think he's very justified in having Kayneth deal with Lancer rather than having Saber fight him. After the battle on the river, Saber is not exactly in top form, and even if she could win against Lancer, it would not be the best tactical situation to have just gone through two major battles in one night. In order to deal with Lancer quickly, Kiritsugu uses the geis, which is an excellent idea, even by itself. Even if you disagree with this since it involves betraying Saber and pissing off Lancer and whatnot, he still has to kill Lancer eventually in order to win...

With Lancer gone, Kayneth and Sola-Ui are screwed anyways. They've been screwed from the beginning with their tragic love triangle. I really don't think that Sola-Ui would all of a sudden turn to Kayneth in acceptance after Lancer dies - if anything, she'd blame him for killing him (or letting him die, if we're going with an alternate scenario without the geis). That's not even mentioning that she has still been supplying Lancer with mana even after her seals are cut off, so she could easily make a contract with another servant in order to try to win the Grail in the hopes of wishing Lancer back to life or something silly like that. Ultimately, as a mage who is partaking in the Grail War, Sola-Ui's death is as necessary as Lancer's for Kiritsugu to ensure his victory.

With Sola-Ui dead, Kayneth would have very little to live for... except perhaps to take revenge on the person who killed her. This is a much greater threat to Kiritsugu if we're going with using the geis, but either way, Kayneth could still pose a threat to Kiritsugu even in his broken state. Even if he can't use magic, he could still control a servant who has their mana supplied from elsewhere, and he could always resort to other methods to take revenge on Kiritsugu. He might also be motivated (although admittedly less likely) to attempt to acquire the Grail in order to wish Sola-Ui back to life.

In the end, there is plenty of danger to leaving any part of Team Irish alive, so Kiritsugu decides to take out all three of them in the most efficient and risk-free way possible. Sure, it's very cheap and a bit cruel, but it's all justified in fighting the war. He's not "mistaken" about the safety he'll get from killing the three of them since it's impossible to reasonably expect any of them to give up peacefully.

HikaruIzumi said:


I understand why he did that, not to mention that he probably knew that Saber wouldn't fight all out (what I found rather silly). I also agree that they wouldn't live happily ever after. But my point was, that Keyneth had already enough trouble as it was and I doubt he would intervene with the war more. Think about it, he lost his magic, his legs, his pride as a mage, his only chance to get grail and nearly his future wife. His fianceé was in a bad condition and since he was willing to give everything up for her, I'm pretty certain that making sure she was fine would be much more important to him than thinking about revenge.

The only issue with this discussion is that we both base it on what we think Keyneth would do had he stayed alive. That leads to nowhere, since we can never know it. However, why I say Kiritsugu isn't doing any good is that he immediatelly did what was easier to him to eliminate any possible danger regardless whether it was reasonable or not. He goes straight towards his goal through any deaths and the easiest possible way. That would still be fine with me, it's rather reasonable give the situation. But what I find messed up is that he doesn't even have the guts to do the dirty work himself. He either has Saber (unwillingly) or Mayia do it. He destroyed Keyneth's life and he didn't even look at him dying. It's as if he refused to see what he does, as if he refused to admit it was his doing. He simply pretends it has nothing to do with him and justifies it with saying that he wants world peace. Like I said before, if he killed him on his own and then killed Lancer by ordering Saber to fight all out or/and help her (not necessarily in this order), that would be completely different case. Instead, he literally betrayed him, forcing him to betray his servant in exchange for his and his fianceé's life and then had someone else shoot them while he was looking away as if he wasn't there. I felt as if he was trying to run away from the death and pain he was causing. The way he acted during conversation with Saber is another proof of that. He couldn't face her, he couldn't even look her way. I don't see him as anything else but a coward that can't even face his own doings. Sorry, but there is no way how I could respect a character like him.

HikaruIzumi said:


I understand why he did that, not to mention that he probably knew that Saber wouldn't fight all out (what I found rather silly). I also agree that they wouldn't live happily ever after. But my point was, that Keyneth had already enough trouble as it was and I doubt he would intervene with the war more. Think about it, he lost his magic, his legs, his pride as a mage, his only chance to get grail and nearly his future wife. His fianceé was in a bad condition and since he was willing to give everything up for her, I'm pretty certain that making sure she was fine would be much more important to him than thinking about revenge.

The only issue with this discussion is that we both base it on what we think Keyneth would do had he stayed alive. That leads to nowhere, since we can never know it. However, why I say Kiritsugu isn't doing any good is that he immediatelly did what was easier to him to eliminate any possible danger regardless whether it was reasonable or not. He goes straight towards his goal through any deaths and the easiest possible way. That would still be fine with me, it's rather reasonable give the situation. But what I find messed up is that he doesn't even have the guts to do the dirty work himself. He either has Saber (unwillingly) or Mayia do it. He destroyed Keyneth's life and he didn't even look at him dying. It's as if he refused to see what he does, as if he refused to admit it was his doing. He simply pretends it has nothing to do with him and justifies it with saying that he wants world peace. Like I said before, if he killed him on his own and then killed Lancer by ordering Saber to fight all out or/and help her (not necessarily in this order), that would be completely different case. Instead, he literally betrayed him, forcing him to betray his servant in exchange for his and his fianceé's life and then had someone else shoot them while he was looking away as if he wasn't there. I felt as if he was trying to run away from the death and pain he was causing. The way he acted during conversation with Saber is another proof of that. He couldn't face her, he couldn't even look her way. I don't see him as anything else but a coward that can't even face his own doings. Sorry, but there is no way how I could respect a character like him.


EDIT: On an unrelated note: next ep looks awesome. Finally more Rin and lol at that facepalm. XD

Leon-Gun said:
I actually quite agree, I was mostly just pointing out the differences in rank when it comes to their stories and "power". I agree Diarmuid was forced by tragedy and circumnstances and in terms of his quality as a hero he's the tragic hero, opposed to Cuchulainn whose story is more about honour, glory and pride.

As for Kiritsugu, I think he makes an excellent foil for Saber. They both have the same goal (regardless of what Saber thinks) but Kiritsugu is all about results while Saber worries about methods. She embodies the ideal of loyalty, honour and mercy, while Kiritsugu sees things in such an extreme way that he shows no mercy to the enemy. In his mind, fooling around with rules on a battlefield is pointless, it's all about the result. If he spares one enemy, that enemy could potentially undo him. Kiritsugu would not take that risk, Saber would. Kiritsugu may be killing only the Masters as of now, but don't forget he turned a blind eye to Caster's debauchery prioritizing instead the defeat of Lancer and the surveillance of Kirei and his Assassin. He only bothered with Caster when the deaths started to get staggering and he summoned his super monster.

Of course, Kiritsugu gets his just desserts eventually for his extreme views, just like Saber did for her extreme idealism (which is the actual reason she seeks to undo her rule). You can see in STay Night that Kiritsugu was basically a broken man before his death.

sallym613 said:
@ataraxial: Pssst. For your most recent comment, you might want to put the part with Kiritsugu (your second paragraph) in spoiler tags ^^; It doesn't particularly bother me, but it might bother other people who haven't read the LN or got up to that part yet.

ataraxial said:

I haven't gotten very far in the LN either. The source for that stuff is FSN, which is supposed to be seen/played before Fate/Zero... so I don't think spoiler tags are necessary for this one. The conclusion of Fate/Zero is supposed to be known before watching it since it is a prequel, after all...

sallym613 said:
Hmm good point.

Though it might be a spoiler for those who decided to watch F/Z before watching/playing FSN.

sallym613 said:
What insan3soldiern said ^
(Is MAL malfunctioning right now? He just posted a comment but his comment just suddenly disappeared a minute after..)

Technically its spoiler (for the ending) for those who has only watched F/Z (and not FSN) so far.

I think most people here have already watched or played FSN before F/Z, but there are still some who are new to the Fate franchise.

insan3soldiern said:


Nah, I deleted it. I thought it was kind of redundant considering you pretty much said something similar before me.

But, I'll add something I guess. At point where we are at in the story, there is still the possibility for someone to pick up Fate/stay at this point and not have those plot threads ataraxial mentioned spoiled. At least let them have that option.

sallym613 said:
@ ataraxial:

We both dont care as much as other people might :P Just letting you know as I have seen few people in other threads that get really annoyed about people spoiling things without putting them in spoiler tags.


Your comment that hints on what happens to Kiritsugu in the end is technically spoiler for those who want to find out the conclusion behind F/Z, but haven't got themselves introduced to Fate franchise through FSN (whether thru VN or anime).
Which I already mentioned.

And also, unfortunately lots of people probably heard about how F/Z is so much better than FSN so there seems to be a consensus among them that they're only going to watch F/Z and not FSN (which is kind of sad). I have also seen some people who have actually recommended people watching F/Z, then playing or watching FSN.
Which I personally don't agree with since I think it's more fun going through FSN first before going into F/Z :P

You can also just indicate (in italics or whatever) what the stuff in your spoiler tags exactly spoils so that people would know. That way people who have watched FSN would know whether to open up the spoiler or not.


I still need to finish watching Star Wars. I only watched the later trilogy so far, which is probably a bad idea but I had to do it for apocalyptism film class...

Okay enough commenting from me. I really need to finish my final project =X Will come back later to reply.

sallym613 said:
@ ataraxial:

I also share your opinion as well. I agree that people should watch read FSN before watching or reading F/Z novel. I personally feel that I enjoyed and got more out of F/Z than FSN so far (I haven't read Heaven's Feel yet) so I'm actually glad that I didn't experience them in the reverse order. If I had, I probably wouldnt have enjoyed FSN as much.

Before I head back to doing my final project (hopefully I can stay away from MAL for a while so I can finish it today), I apologize in advance if it seems like I made a really big deal out of the whole spoiler thing. It doesn't matter much to me, but as someone who absolutely hates being spoiled with spoilers, I can understand why people might complain about it.

MasterSpark11 said:
I like this small detail (picture under spoiler):

For a brief moment, Kiritsugu gives an angry glance at Saber. At that moment, his eyes are clear (well, clearer than they are usually at least). Soon however, he goes back to his emotionless self and his eyes start looking empty again:

It is nice to see ufotable take such small details into account. Just that moment alone tells a lot about Kiritsugu's character.

Thess said:


As Saber was about to speak her thoughts, she suddenly found that her own voice was lower and calmer than she thought it would be. She had just realized that her complicated emotions towards Kiritsugu was no longer her previous anger, but had to changed to some kind of pity.

That’s right; maybe he is a man that should be pitied.

Isn’t he himself that needed salvation, not this world?

“– Emiya Kiritsugu, I don’t know what kind of betrayal you were subjected to in the past and why you despaired. But that rage, that lament, are undoubtedly things that those who pursued justice possesses. Kiritsugu, in your youth you should have wanted to be ‘a hero of justice’. You should have believed in and wanted to become a hero who saves the world more than anyone else – isn’t that so?”

Until now, the only attitudes Kiritsugu had shown to Saber were complete ignorance and cold scorn. But now, Kiritsugu, having heard Saber’s quiet questioning – the eyes that he fixed on his Servant showed other emotions for the first time.

It was a rage seemingly close to boiling over.

Nope. Try again.

Saber got the last word and Kiritsugu was incredibly butthurt. She pitied the guy because she had him figured out.

MasterSpark11 said:
I like this small detail (picture under spoiler):

For a brief moment, Kiritsugu gives an angry glance at Saber. At that moment, his eyes are clear (well, clearer than they are usually at least). Soon however, he goes back to his emotionless self and his eyes start looking empty again:

It is nice to see ufotable take such small details into account. Just that moment alone tells a lot about Kiritsugu's character.

Aversa said:
Now i understand allot more about Sabar's behaviour in Fate/Stay Night.
Kiritsugu is very cruel when it comes to achieving his goals we heard about it last season and i expected it still that was pretty harsh.
Then again Archibald wasn't any better himself the way he took out the priest right after he got what he wanted from him.

And Kirei is showing the first signs of betrayal towards Tokiomi.
I wonder how he will react to the death of his father whether he will still be as emotionless as ever.