Anime is the most artistically diverse category of art ever

I watch movies/I write about movies (in Spanish)/I watch anime

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Oct 2010

11734

RogertheShrubber said:

jal90 said:

RogertheShrubber said:

jal90 said:

RogertheShrubber said:

jal90 said:

RogertheShrubber said:
I'm gonna have to disagree pretty strongly, anime (or rather animation) is quite possibly the least diverse artistic medium there is (with the possible exception of interactive stories like video games). That's not to say that anime isn't great in its own right and I would indeed argue that animation has some of the greatest potential for artistic expression but having been around for only 60 years or so it has yet to even come close to reaching this potential. What's more the expectations the audience places on popular media (like anime) restricts what styles and story types can be reasonably produced meaning so much of what comes out in the medium has such a similar feel to it. You might argue that this effect exists in all mediums and to a point you would be correct but with time and geographic (and therefore cultural) diversity these other mediums have had the room to explore a vastly greater variety of the possible facets of their respective mediums.

I mean, anime alone is something produced in Japan. It has its limitations because media produced by one country and one industry can only deviate as much from the norm. But animation overall is something much bigger and much more diverse than you are assuming here I think. Another different thing would be what reaches the mainstream, which tends to be safe and repetitive formulas. But there's a whole lot of experimentation with animation, there's a lot of unique animation styles and artsy stuff around the world, and there's animated productions from like everywhere in the world, each having their own ethnic or cultural approaches.

Notice I didn't say that animation wasn't diverse, I said that is was less diverse than other mediums. Which is unequivocally true.

I don't think it's "unequivocally true".

I defy anyone to name an artistic medium which is less diverse than animation and try to justify themselves with any degree of validity (notice I use this term very carefully). There will always be someone who disagrees no matter how obvious the conclusion but unless that person can produce a valid argument for their position it is immaterial to the discussion. I deny that such an argument could possibly exist, the burden of proof falls on you to contradict this.

Do you think I can't name you examples of animation from many places and cultural nuances around the world being made, or of completely different animation styles and techniques, or name experimental authors? Of course I can. And if you take your time to Google you can as well. But that won't prove shit to you. You are throwing me a burden of proof when you haven't even defined clearly what do you call a standard of diversity. And I do not intend you to explain how diverse other media are, because I know how big of a task it is and how difficult it is do explain that through examples and names.

But unequivocally true my ass. Don't throw stuff like they are facts when you can't factually prove them (and I'm not asking you to). Plus I could be a little nitpicky and for starters take your statements with a grain of salt when just by saying "having been around for only 60 years" you are shortening animation to like half of its lifespan.

It's not up to anyone to factually prove or disprove it. I think you have a warped concept of academic discourse, I presented a position it's up to you to provide a logically consistent contradiction. Of course I won't be swayed by your argument I'm not asking you to try, I'm merely asking you to present a cogent argument if you can do this I will stand corrected. Also I didn't provide a definition for a standard of diversity since I assumed this was unnecessary since this term is already well defined.

Your second point stands however, I was arbitrarily choosing the point in time when animation started becoming a recognized form of artistic expression rather than a mere novelty. But you are correct I should have justified this more.

Please don't give me some boring talk about academic discourse, reality is much more simple. We are in a forum, you present a statement that seems rather uninformed -based on the mere fact that you reduced animation to half of its lifespan- and then claim it to be unequivocally true. For starters, you are the one who throws the idea and you are the one who should prove your statements and you haven't at all, because you are the one calling them unequivocally true. Which I won't demand you to do because I know that casually asking you to prove me how diverse this or that medium is would be just plain irrational and insane.

You asking me for a cogent argument is super presumptuous because 1) you haven't given ground to your own statements and 2) you have not defined how do you want this comparison to be framed. Do you want statistics of stuff that is produced each year? Google them, I don't know the exact data but it is probably not difficult to search. Do you want me to name styles, techniques, cultural approaches, authors, and etc.? How many do you want? Hundreds? Thousands? I don't quite feel fine throwing names, much less if the burden of proof you set is your own ill-defined idea of diversity in a medium.

Anyway, to further nitpick, animation has been recognized as a form of artistic expression for much longer than 60 years ago. Take for instance abstract and experimental animation with names like Len Lye, Oskar Fischinger and Walter Ruttmann being prevalent already during the first half of the 20th Century.

jal90May 4, 2019 3:40 PM

May 4, 2019 3:43 PM

#53

Offline

Aug 2018

217

Irka4 said:

RogertheShrubber said:

Irka4 said:

RogertheShrubber said:

jal90 said:

RogertheShrubber said:

jal90 said:

RogertheShrubber said:
I'm gonna have to disagree pretty strongly, anime (or rather animation) is quite possibly the least diverse artistic medium there is (with the possible exception of interactive stories like video games). That's not to say that anime isn't great in its own right and I would indeed argue that animation has some of the greatest potential for artistic expression but having been around for only 60 years or so it has yet to even come close to reaching this potential. What's more the expectations the audience places on popular media (like anime) restricts what styles and story types can be reasonably produced meaning so much of what comes out in the medium has such a similar feel to it. You might argue that this effect exists in all mediums and to a point you would be correct but with time and geographic (and therefore cultural) diversity these other mediums have had the room to explore a vastly greater variety of the possible facets of their respective mediums.

I mean, anime alone is something produced in Japan. It has its limitations because media produced by one country and one industry can only deviate as much from the norm. But animation overall is something much bigger and much more diverse than you are assuming here I think. Another different thing would be what reaches the mainstream, which tends to be safe and repetitive formulas. But there's a whole lot of experimentation with animation, there's a lot of unique animation styles and artsy stuff around the world, and there's animated productions from like everywhere in the world, each having their own ethnic or cultural approaches.

Notice I didn't say that animation wasn't diverse, I said that is was less diverse than other mediums. Which is unequivocally true.

I don't think it's "unequivocally true".

I defy anyone to name an artistic medium which is less diverse than animation and try to justify themselves with any degree of validity (notice I use this term very carefully). There will always be someone who disagrees no matter how obvious the conclusion but unless that person can produce a valid argument for their position it is immaterial to the discussion. I deny that such an argument could possibly exist, the burden of proof falls on you to contradict this.

That is fairly easy to prove mathematically. Ability to combine both music and drawings make amount of expression possible in animation more than plain music or drawings

Yikes, I did not say POTENTIAL for diversity of expression I said actual diversity I.e. what has actually thus far been produced

Then I would have to quote Jal's answer (potential for diversity is a pretty good argument for actual diversity though). I defy you to prove that music has more diversity of expression than animation

nongcom said:
Is this a bait or is the OP actually serious?

Replies can be non serious, but I believe what I am arguing for

Proving that music is more diverse should be obviously impossible, what I assume you mean to ask is to provide a reasonable argument for this being the case. This much I can do.

The main argument for a greater diversity in music is simply from the fact that it has been around for vastly longer and has been explored by individuals in a far greater variety of contexts. For example lets look at drama, if we were to estimate the number of works in animation which fall under this category a fairly charitable estimate would be around 10,000 works, if we look at dramatic music (which I will admit is somewhat vague but it's the best i can do so bare with me) a fairly uncharitable estimate of the number of such works would be around 100,000. This holds true for any such genre with far greater numbers of examples in the medium of music. Now admittedly the number of works does not necessarily indicate its diversity but I think we can all agree that there is a correlation. You might argue (and rightly so) that since animation combines a wider variety of elements that there is a greater variety of possible combinations of such elements and you would be correct but this is only a valid argument in the context of diversity of expression if we assume that music has neared its maximum capacity for expression. Otherwise the number of combinations of elements could have no effect on diversity. I would hope you would recognize that this cannot possibly be the case since the variety of combinations of elements within music is precisely infinite.

May 4, 2019 3:56 PM

#54

Offline

Aug 2018

217

jal90 said:

RogertheShrubber said:

jal90 said:

RogertheShrubber said:

jal90 said:

RogertheShrubber said:

jal90 said:

RogertheShrubber said:
I'm gonna have to disagree pretty strongly, anime (or rather animation) is quite possibly the least diverse artistic medium there is (with the possible exception of interactive stories like video games). That's not to say that anime isn't great in its own right and I would indeed argue that animation has some of the greatest potential for artistic expression but having been around for only 60 years or so it has yet to even come close to reaching this potential. What's more the expectations the audience places on popular media (like anime) restricts what styles and story types can be reasonably produced meaning so much of what comes out in the medium has such a similar feel to it. You might argue that this effect exists in all mediums and to a point you would be correct but with time and geographic (and therefore cultural) diversity these other mediums have had the room to explore a vastly greater variety of the possible facets of their respective mediums.

I mean, anime alone is something produced in Japan. It has its limitations because media produced by one country and one industry can only deviate as much from the norm. But animation overall is something much bigger and much more diverse than you are assuming here I think. Another different thing would be what reaches the mainstream, which tends to be safe and repetitive formulas. But there's a whole lot of experimentation with animation, there's a lot of unique animation styles and artsy stuff around the world, and there's animated productions from like everywhere in the world, each having their own ethnic or cultural approaches.

Notice I didn't say that animation wasn't diverse, I said that is was less diverse than other mediums. Which is unequivocally true.

I don't think it's "unequivocally true".

I defy anyone to name an artistic medium which is less diverse than animation and try to justify themselves with any degree of validity (notice I use this term very carefully). There will always be someone who disagrees no matter how obvious the conclusion but unless that person can produce a valid argument for their position it is immaterial to the discussion. I deny that such an argument could possibly exist, the burden of proof falls on you to contradict this.

Do you think I can't name you examples of animation from many places and cultural nuances around the world being made, or of completely different animation styles and techniques, or name experimental authors? Of course I can. And if you take your time to Google you can as well. But that won't prove shit to you. You are throwing me a burden of proof when you haven't even defined clearly what do you call a standard of diversity. And I do not intend you to explain how diverse other media are, because I know how big of a task it is and how difficult it is do explain that through examples and names.

But unequivocally true my ass. Don't throw stuff like they are facts when you can't factually prove them (and I'm not asking you to). Plus I could be a little nitpicky and for starters take your statements with a grain of salt when just by saying "having been around for only 60 years" you are shortening animation to like half of its lifespan.

It's not up to anyone to factually prove or disprove it. I think you have a warped concept of academic discourse, I presented a position it's up to you to provide a logically consistent contradiction. Of course I won't be swayed by your argument I'm not asking you to try, I'm merely asking you to present a cogent argument if you can do this I will stand corrected. Also I didn't provide a definition for a standard of diversity since I assumed this was unnecessary since this term is already well defined.

Your second point stands however, I was arbitrarily choosing the point in time when animation started becoming a recognized form of artistic expression rather than a mere novelty. But you are correct I should have justified this more.

Please don't give me some boring talk about academic discourse, reality is much more simple. We are in a forum, you present a statement that seems rather uninformed -based on the mere fact that you reduced animation to half of its lifespan- and then claim it to be unequivocally true. For starters, you are the one who throws the idea and you are the one who should prove your statements and you haven't at all, because you are the one calling them unequivocally true. Which I won't demand you to do because I know that casually asking you to prove me how diverse this or that medium is would be just plain irrational and insane.

You asking me for a cogent argument is super presumptuous because 1) you haven't given ground to your own statements and 2) you have not defined how do you want this comparison to be framed. Do you want statistics of stuff that is produced each year? Google them, I don't know the exact data but it is probably not difficult to search. Do you want me to name styles, techniques, cultural approaches, authors, and etc.? How many do you want? Hundreds? Thousands? I don't quite feel fine throwing names, much less if the burden of proof you set is your own ill-defined idea of diversity in a medium.

Anyway, to further nitpick, animation has been recognized as a form of artistic expression for much longer than 60 years ago. Take for instance abstract and experimental animation with names like Len Lye, Oskar Fischinger and Walter Ruttmann being prevalent already during the first half of the 20th Century.

"For starters, you are the one who throws the idea and you are the one who should prove your statements and you haven't at all, because you are the one calling them unequivocally true." by your own admission proving such a thing is impossible, I have presented a reasonable position you have yet to engage with it at all. I don't really care how you make your argument, If you think statistics would be helpful use them if listing cultural approaches would support your assertion do that. Why would it matter how you make your argument as long as it is logically sound. Also I did give grounds to my position, anime is a new artform (relatively speaking) and so has been explored to a lesser degree. If you don't want to engage with the discussion why respond?

May 4, 2019 4:03 PM

#55

Offline

Jul 2018

564612

GERXjakobson said:

Wasn't asking for a definition. And you can't dismiss argument by calling someone lower class

And if you mean it as an insult, I will have to report you

IT'S FREE SPEECH!!!!!!! GET AS OFFENDED AS YOU LIKE

Obvious troll is obvious. Alright, let's move along people.

May 4, 2019 4:08 PM

#56

Offline

Jul 2018

564612

It's pretty diverse in genre and style, but so are other types of animation and art. Cartoons are too, I guess and so are other types of media.
Games for example are very diverse too. You could play everything from an educational game for toddlers to AAA+ egoshooter games.
Not so speak of novels, music and "traditional" live action series and movies or traditional art.
As long as there are different genres, different types of artists and audiences, there will be diversity too.

May 4, 2019 4:09 PM

#57

Offline

Jul 2018

564612

There are actually great arguments here for the other side. I was agreeing with OP potential wise(which is the angle they thought of it from too), but animation is new compared to other mediums, not to mention more expensive. Lol, I'm adding nothing, just an echo flower, nothing to see here:

May 4, 2019 4:12 PM

#58

Offline

Jul 2018

564612

Have you seen paintings? Anime is extremely formulaic with its art style. You can look at one of Picasso's earlier works, then his later ones, and they look nothing alike.
Before someone says, "But what anime X and Y?" Those are exceptions, not the norm.

May 4, 2019 4:14 PM

#59

I watch movies/I write about movies (in Spanish)/I watch anime

Offline

Oct 2010

11734

RogertheShrubber said:

jal90 said:

RogertheShrubber said:

jal90 said:

RogertheShrubber said:

jal90 said:

RogertheShrubber said:

jal90 said:

RogertheShrubber said:
I'm gonna have to disagree pretty strongly, anime (or rather animation) is quite possibly the least diverse artistic medium there is (with the possible exception of interactive stories like video games). That's not to say that anime isn't great in its own right and I would indeed argue that animation has some of the greatest potential for artistic expression but having been around for only 60 years or so it has yet to even come close to reaching this potential. What's more the expectations the audience places on popular media (like anime) restricts what styles and story types can be reasonably produced meaning so much of what comes out in the medium has such a similar feel to it. You might argue that this effect exists in all mediums and to a point you would be correct but with time and geographic (and therefore cultural) diversity these other mediums have had the room to explore a vastly greater variety of the possible facets of their respective mediums.

I mean, anime alone is something produced in Japan. It has its limitations because media produced by one country and one industry can only deviate as much from the norm. But animation overall is something much bigger and much more diverse than you are assuming here I think. Another different thing would be what reaches the mainstream, which tends to be safe and repetitive formulas. But there's a whole lot of experimentation with animation, there's a lot of unique animation styles and artsy stuff around the world, and there's animated productions from like everywhere in the world, each having their own ethnic or cultural approaches.

Notice I didn't say that animation wasn't diverse, I said that is was less diverse than other mediums. Which is unequivocally true.

I don't think it's "unequivocally true".

I defy anyone to name an artistic medium which is less diverse than animation and try to justify themselves with any degree of validity (notice I use this term very carefully). There will always be someone who disagrees no matter how obvious the conclusion but unless that person can produce a valid argument for their position it is immaterial to the discussion. I deny that such an argument could possibly exist, the burden of proof falls on you to contradict this.

Do you think I can't name you examples of animation from many places and cultural nuances around the world being made, or of completely different animation styles and techniques, or name experimental authors? Of course I can. And if you take your time to Google you can as well. But that won't prove shit to you. You are throwing me a burden of proof when you haven't even defined clearly what do you call a standard of diversity. And I do not intend you to explain how diverse other media are, because I know how big of a task it is and how difficult it is do explain that through examples and names.

But unequivocally true my ass. Don't throw stuff like they are facts when you can't factually prove them (and I'm not asking you to). Plus I could be a little nitpicky and for starters take your statements with a grain of salt when just by saying "having been around for only 60 years" you are shortening animation to like half of its lifespan.

It's not up to anyone to factually prove or disprove it. I think you have a warped concept of academic discourse, I presented a position it's up to you to provide a logically consistent contradiction. Of course I won't be swayed by your argument I'm not asking you to try, I'm merely asking you to present a cogent argument if you can do this I will stand corrected. Also I didn't provide a definition for a standard of diversity since I assumed this was unnecessary since this term is already well defined.

Your second point stands however, I was arbitrarily choosing the point in time when animation started becoming a recognized form of artistic expression rather than a mere novelty. But you are correct I should have justified this more.

Please don't give me some boring talk about academic discourse, reality is much more simple. We are in a forum, you present a statement that seems rather uninformed -based on the mere fact that you reduced animation to half of its lifespan- and then claim it to be unequivocally true. For starters, you are the one who throws the idea and you are the one who should prove your statements and you haven't at all, because you are the one calling them unequivocally true. Which I won't demand you to do because I know that casually asking you to prove me how diverse this or that medium is would be just plain irrational and insane.

You asking me for a cogent argument is super presumptuous because 1) you haven't given ground to your own statements and 2) you have not defined how do you want this comparison to be framed. Do you want statistics of stuff that is produced each year? Google them, I don't know the exact data but it is probably not difficult to search. Do you want me to name styles, techniques, cultural approaches, authors, and etc.? How many do you want? Hundreds? Thousands? I don't quite feel fine throwing names, much less if the burden of proof you set is your own ill-defined idea of diversity in a medium.

Anyway, to further nitpick, animation has been recognized as a form of artistic expression for much longer than 60 years ago. Take for instance abstract and experimental animation with names like Len Lye, Oskar Fischinger and Walter Ruttmann being prevalent already during the first half of the 20th Century.

"For starters, you are the one who throws the idea and you are the one who should prove your statements and you haven't at all, because you are the one calling them unequivocally true." by your own admission proving such a thing is impossible, I have presented a reasonable position you have yet to engage with it at all. I don't really care how you make your argument, If you think statistics would be helpful use them if listing cultural approaches would support your assertion do that. Why would it matter how you make your argument as long as it is logically sound. Also I did give grounds to my position, anime is a new artform (relatively speaking) and so has been explored to a lesser degree. If you don't want to engage with the discussion why respond?

The fuck? What are you, a kid? Because these retorts are really childish.

Who told you that I don't want to engage with the discussion? I want to engage with the discussion, I just don't want you to be arbitrary and demand me to prove you stuff when you haven't proved anything. You only have a point, and it's a reasonable point, about animation being a young medium. But if you aren't even defining well how young it is or even how artistically relevant it has been over the decades, how do you expect your point to come across as "unequivocally true"?

If you use big words calling your statements "unequivocally true", you can't make essential factual mistakes in describing the medium revealing that you either don't know much about it or are miscalculating stuff.

Either way, if you want to compare one medium with another then of course, it's easier and more agreeable. Music is more diverse than animation. Literature is more diverse than animation. It's easy to agree with these statements. Both have been there for thousands of years and have been explored by almost if not virtually every culture. But that's different from imagining a random scale of media (I don't even know which media are you contemplating) and then deciding that animation somehow arbitrarily falls in the lower scale. Your statements this way don't hold value. And do you really think that I don't want to discuss with you? I'm asking you to be more precise with your statements precisely to have something to discuss.

May 4, 2019 4:38 PM

#60

Offline

Jan 2009

92453

most anime are just like mass factory produce adaptations of the source material like novels and manga, and if you notice on discussions here lots of source material readers says the anime adaptation is shit so just read the source material, that alone can give you an idea that the source material is more artistic (or they expressed more the creativity of the original author) also original anime is rare each season

so forget about claiming its the most artistically diverse when most of anime is limited artistically to begin with

May 4, 2019 4:39 PM

#61

Cabron

Offline

Jan 2013

5351

Irka4 said:
By extension, we can call anime the most artistic category within any medium ever (pinnacle of human expression...!!!!!)
Some may say there are many great cartoons too, but cartoons lack the diversity of expression that anime has

What do you think, is there any specific category of art that can match up to anime?

Do you mind giving examples of said cartoons lacking diversity of expression? Because that's a big lie.

Irka4 said:

Aidoru-Ojisan said:

Irka4 said:

Aidoru-Ojisan said:

Irka4 said:

Aidoru-Ojisan said:

Irka4 said:

Aidoru-Ojisan said:
No not really, seeing as the industry itself doesn't let free form and underground stuff survive or even give the creators some form of income compared to mediums like music, which allows both for money-grubbing and free forms of the medium bring in some sort of an income. And when I say free form I really mean free form, music is the only medium that I know of that you can't really objectively judge because there is always a reason why the end product is the way it is, low production on the record? Welp once you know more about the music world you know that lo-fi production is made to give off a certain soundscape that can increase the emotions of said record, low production for an Anime? Welp either the creators were lazy or they ran out of money resulting in an Anime that will end up with a 5 mean score here. To be able to embody many forms of stories and emotions just with sound for thousands of years is much more impressive than Anime that has a lot more aspects to carry it. Yet I can agree Anime can be amazing when it is in the right hands, kinda sad to know the economy crashing in the later 2000s is the reason of the decline of risk taking ideas for Anime which I hope to see again cause when creators are more free to do as they wish for any artform the end result is likely to be something worth giving your time to.

Workers may be overworked, but there is no creativity without limitations. Also this means that what drive the workers is not money but passion, which make it even better
Anime is also a medium where every drawer can add personal touches to the scene, and every scene is full of expression
Another thing is that music is too broad a category compared to anime
And music increasingly sound the same, and rate of development of new expression is faster in anime than in music

"And music increasingly sound the same, and rate of development of new expression is faster in anime than in music"

uwot m8?

You literally say that for a medium that once the internet age started that single genres of music can span over 100+ sub-genres that can sound different, oh or are you talking about mainstream music? Cause if so yeah Anime has that issue too, where there are shows constantly following tropes and there only being a small portion of original ideas being Animated versus adaptations. If you mean what you say you haven't even gotten past the tip of the music iceberg, cause once you go deeper into it that is when you have thousands of years worth of sound that is still growing to this day, Anime is growing too with its ideas and allowing more creators to have freedom of expression, not only one scene but whole shows cause of the help of corporations like Netflix. Music never needed that, whole folks working a decent job or as a mailman with passion is enough to to bring endless possibilities of sound to the table.

Being easy to produce doesn't make an art better. Rather difficult works are more artistic. And you need to specify a category within music to compare with anime, rather than music as a whole

And it being harder to produce makes an art better? Cause from what I recall most Anime from this season cost more to make than an indie label record which has spawned some of the most iconic records in music, but there's also super expensive produced records like Loveless by MBV that has been regarded as one of the greatest records of all time. See? either you putting a decent amount of money or all of your income into a record is enough to create a high-quality work but wait is it really the money and production that makes it good? Nope it's the people and minds behind it that make it good. and for specifics let me drop all of Rock music on you, there's my mic drop cause I don't need to explain how much all of Rock has to offer and made to be offered.

Well I feel nice so here's an easier way to explain how a single genre of music is vaster in both history and creation than Anime

https://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Rock/

Amount of money needed to make doesn't have much to do with the amount of artistic effort made, or amount of artistic expression it has

Amount of money mostly has to do with hiring the artist, not the work done by the artist

I clearly said that when I spoke that it was the minds and individuals behind making something in "music good". Seriously you bring up this "artistic expression" idea for a medium so bond to money for creation that the day the world economy crashed that Anime studios had to create more "safe works" to make sure they wouldn't become bankrupt? Artistic value for a medium that only grants it in small scenes or projects that are funded by big buck corporations or "fund me" pages? There are projects within Anime that have a lot of artistic value, almost all of the OVAs from the 80s to 90s were artists given money to go with what they wanted, but like I said when the economy crashed they didn't have that freedom anymore but music has always had that freedom, all forms of music have to be more specific. Either with money or little money, all the artist needs is passion and the ability to create the sound he desires.

"Either with money or little money, all the artist needs is passion and the ability to create the sound he desires"

Agree with you. And it is one of the things that really set anime apart. Even when studios are creating 'safe works', individual workers have enough space to manoeuvre and input their own distinct touches

Yeah my dude, you have no idea about what you're talking about, that's not something unique to anime.

Do your homework next time before you act like you know about anime or animation in general.

CabronMay 4, 2019 5:15 PM

Please learn about cel animation and its technical process.
Learn how special effects and backlighting were done without computers.

May 4, 2019 4:42 PM

#62

Offline

Aug 2018

217

jal90 said:

RogertheShrubber said:

jal90 said:

RogertheShrubber said:

jal90 said:

RogertheShrubber said:

jal90 said:

RogertheShrubber said:

jal90 said:

RogertheShrubber said:
I'm gonna have to disagree pretty strongly, anime (or rather animation) is quite possibly the least diverse artistic medium there is (with the possible exception of interactive stories like video games). That's not to say that anime isn't great in its own right and I would indeed argue that animation has some of the greatest potential for artistic expression but having been around for only 60 years or so it has yet to even come close to reaching this potential. What's more the expectations the audience places on popular media (like anime) restricts what styles and story types can be reasonably produced meaning so much of what comes out in the medium has such a similar feel to it. You might argue that this effect exists in all mediums and to a point you would be correct but with time and geographic (and therefore cultural) diversity these other mediums have had the room to explore a vastly greater variety of the possible facets of their respective mediums.

I mean, anime alone is something produced in Japan. It has its limitations because media produced by one country and one industry can only deviate as much from the norm. But animation overall is something much bigger and much more diverse than you are assuming here I think. Another different thing would be what reaches the mainstream, which tends to be safe and repetitive formulas. But there's a whole lot of experimentation with animation, there's a lot of unique animation styles and artsy stuff around the world, and there's animated productions from like everywhere in the world, each having their own ethnic or cultural approaches.

Notice I didn't say that animation wasn't diverse, I said that is was less diverse than other mediums. Which is unequivocally true.

I don't think it's "unequivocally true".

I defy anyone to name an artistic medium which is less diverse than animation and try to justify themselves with any degree of validity (notice I use this term very carefully). There will always be someone who disagrees no matter how obvious the conclusion but unless that person can produce a valid argument for their position it is immaterial to the discussion. I deny that such an argument could possibly exist, the burden of proof falls on you to contradict this.

Do you think I can't name you examples of animation from many places and cultural nuances around the world being made, or of completely different animation styles and techniques, or name experimental authors? Of course I can. And if you take your time to Google you can as well. But that won't prove shit to you. You are throwing me a burden of proof when you haven't even defined clearly what do you call a standard of diversity. And I do not intend you to explain how diverse other media are, because I know how big of a task it is and how difficult it is do explain that through examples and names.

But unequivocally true my ass. Don't throw stuff like they are facts when you can't factually prove them (and I'm not asking you to). Plus I could be a little nitpicky and for starters take your statements with a grain of salt when just by saying "having been around for only 60 years" you are shortening animation to like half of its lifespan.

It's not up to anyone to factually prove or disprove it. I think you have a warped concept of academic discourse, I presented a position it's up to you to provide a logically consistent contradiction. Of course I won't be swayed by your argument I'm not asking you to try, I'm merely asking you to present a cogent argument if you can do this I will stand corrected. Also I didn't provide a definition for a standard of diversity since I assumed this was unnecessary since this term is already well defined.

Your second point stands however, I was arbitrarily choosing the point in time when animation started becoming a recognized form of artistic expression rather than a mere novelty. But you are correct I should have justified this more.

Please don't give me some boring talk about academic discourse, reality is much more simple. We are in a forum, you present a statement that seems rather uninformed -based on the mere fact that you reduced animation to half of its lifespan- and then claim it to be unequivocally true. For starters, you are the one who throws the idea and you are the one who should prove your statements and you haven't at all, because you are the one calling them unequivocally true. Which I won't demand you to do because I know that casually asking you to prove me how diverse this or that medium is would be just plain irrational and insane.

You asking me for a cogent argument is super presumptuous because 1) you haven't given ground to your own statements and 2) you have not defined how do you want this comparison to be framed. Do you want statistics of stuff that is produced each year? Google them, I don't know the exact data but it is probably not difficult to search. Do you want me to name styles, techniques, cultural approaches, authors, and etc.? How many do you want? Hundreds? Thousands? I don't quite feel fine throwing names, much less if the burden of proof you set is your own ill-defined idea of diversity in a medium.

Anyway, to further nitpick, animation has been recognized as a form of artistic expression for much longer than 60 years ago. Take for instance abstract and experimental animation with names like Len Lye, Oskar Fischinger and Walter Ruttmann being prevalent already during the first half of the 20th Century.

"For starters, you are the one who throws the idea and you are the one who should prove your statements and you haven't at all, because you are the one calling them unequivocally true." by your own admission proving such a thing is impossible, I have presented a reasonable position you have yet to engage with it at all. I don't really care how you make your argument, If you think statistics would be helpful use them if listing cultural approaches would support your assertion do that. Why would it matter how you make your argument as long as it is logically sound. Also I did give grounds to my position, anime is a new artform (relatively speaking) and so has been explored to a lesser degree. If you don't want to engage with the discussion why respond?

The fuck? What are you, a kid? Because these retorts are really childish.

Who told you that I don't want to engage with the discussion? I want to engage with the discussion, I just don't want you to be arbitrary and demand me to prove you stuff when you haven't proved anything. You only have a point, and it's a reasonable point, about animation being a young medium. But if you aren't even defining well how young it is or even how artistically relevant it has been over the decades, how do you expect your point to come across as "unequivocally true"?

If you use big words calling your statements "unequivocally true", you can't make essential factual mistakes in describing the medium revealing that you either don't know much about it or are miscalculating stuff.

Either way, if you want to compare one medium with another then of course, it's easier and more agreeable. Music is more diverse than animation. Literature is more diverse than animation. It's easy to agree with these statements. Both have been there for thousands of years and have been explored by almost if not virtually every culture. But that's different from imagining a random scale of media (I don't even know which media are you contemplating) and then deciding that animation somehow arbitrarily falls in the lower scale. Your statements this way don't hold value. And do you really think that I don't want to discuss with you? I'm asking you to be more precise with your statements precisely to have something to discuss.

jesus christ I never once told you to prove anything, I asked you to provide a reasonable argument, that's all. Your unwillingness to make an argument is why it seems clear to me you don't want to have a discussion.

I do not have to prove that my statement is unequivocally true, (that is to say that it cannot possibly be untrue) that would be proving the null hypothesis which is something I'm sure we both agree is impossible. it is quite possible that this statement utterly wrong but it doesn't matter because until somebody presents a contradictory example the statement will stand.

I have no idea what you mean by a random scale of media, by mediums I mean novels, short stories, poetry, music, paintings, sculpture, plays, film, animation etc etc. I assumed this classification system was established enough to not need precise definition. besides even if you were to use a different classification system I would take no issue with that, at least it would be something i could work with.

May 4, 2019 5:05 PM

#63

I watch movies/I write about movies (in Spanish)/I watch anime

Offline

Oct 2010

11734

@RogertheShrubber You literally told me that the burden of proof was on me after me simply saying "I don't think so" to your "unequivocally true" stance. Please don't insult my intelligence. As for how much I elaborate and present rational arguments, I think I have done more than enough against a stance that has appeared misinformed both in the first statement and in the correction.

You saying that animation is one of the "least diverse" media means that there is a scale. That some media are more diverse and some are less and animation is one of the least diverse.

Do you want me to tackle the little stuff you've actually added here? Okay. It is true that animation is a young medium, it just 130-140 years old. It obviously hasn't had the chance to spread as much as media that existed for thousands of years. But you are not taking into account certain things here. The flow of information and cultural exchange on a global scale has only become exponentially bigger. Animation grows faster than literature or music grew when they first appeared. Production is big and different cultural approaches can reach each other and influence the growth of the medium in a much smaller timespan. There are arguable drawbacks to this as well, because it could be argued that these influences hinder artistic individuality since cultures are not isolated and they don't keep their unique flavor; on the other hand they can reach further and develop faster their artistic sensibilities. Like, there are many considerations to be made here.

As you see, I want to discuss. I don't really want to appear antagonistic at you and I'm trying to debate with you rationally. But I'm not going to take any lessons from you and much less I'm going to accept dishonesty and victimism in this exchange, so you choose if you want to keep a civil discussion, for which you should begin to contribute something, or if you want to go on with passive-agressive retorts trying to make me look irrational.

May 4, 2019 5:17 PM

#64

Offline

Aug 2018

217

jal90 said:
@RogertheShrubber You literally told me that the burden of proof was on me after me simply saying "I don't think so" to your "unequivocally true" stance. Please don't insult my intelligence. As for how much I elaborate and present rational arguments, I think I have done more than enough against a stance that has appeared misinformed both in the first statement and in the correction.

You saying that animation is one of the "least diverse" media means that there is a scale. That some media are more diverse and some are less and animation is one of the least diverse.

Do you want me to tackle the little stuff you've actually added here? Okay. It is true that animation is a young medium, it just 130-140 years old. It obviously hasn't had the chance to spread as much as media that existed for thousands of years. But you are not taking into account certain things here. The flow of information and cultural exchange on a global scale has only become exponentially bigger. Animation grows faster than literature or music grew when they first appeared. Production is big and different cultural approaches can reach each other and influence the growth of the medium in a much smaller timespan. There are arguable drawbacks to this as well, because it could be argued that these influences hinder artistic individuality since cultures are not isolated and they don't keep their unique flavor; on the other hand they can reach further and develop faster their artistic sensibilities. Like, there are many considerations to be made here.

As you see, I want to disxuss. I don't really want to appear antagonistic at you and I'm trying to discuss with you rationally. But I'm not going to take any lessons from you and much less I'm going to accept dishonesty and victimism in this exchange, so you choose if you want to keep a civil discussion, for which you should begin to contribute something, or if you want to go on with passive-agressive retorts trying to make me look irrational.

"burden of proof" is just a common expression I used it suggest it's up to you to support your position or contradict mine. it doesn't actually mean you have to prove anything. (I read your mal and found that english isn't your first language so I guess Its unfair of me to assume you were familiar with this).

Your third paragraph is exactly what I've been begging you to do this whole time. It is precisely these details that I've been trying to explore with someone.

Also you were the one that came off as antagonizing to me first so fuck off with that "victimization" shit.

[edit] also it's 111 years old not 130-140. source: Google

RogertheShrubberMay 4, 2019 5:32 PM

May 4, 2019 5:34 PM

#65

I watch movies/I write about movies (in Spanish)/I watch anime

Offline

Oct 2010

11734

@RogertheShrubber Yeah if you call discussing your statements and wanting to have a conversation because I don't take what you present for granted "antagonizing you" then I think I'm right in saying that you are acting victimistic.

Then again, if you don't want to go on with the discussion, feel free to, it's not an obligation and it's not like I haven't left discussions many times because I didn't feel like it. If you want, we discuss. That's all I'm going to say.

Hope this sets things up and thanks for your clarifications. It's true that English is not my first language, but I've been here for years so it's not like I want to use it as an excuse. But of course if I misinterpreted something, excuse me.

RogertheShrubber said:
[edit] also it's 111 years old not 130-140. source: Google

That depends on what you call animation I guess. I'm assuming you mean the works of Émile Cohl, but Émile Reynaud predates him by 25 years. He made stuff like this in the late 19th Century:

jal90May 4, 2019 5:44 PM

May 4, 2019 5:44 PM

#66

Yomiyuki

Offline

Sep 2012

4153

there is no comparison. people seriously comparing cartoons to anime are deluded.
>inb4 gero comes back and writes essays on how batman the animated series is better than cowboy bebop

Oh maybe, maybe it's the clothes we wear
The tasteless bracelets and the dye in our hair
Or maybe, maybe it's our nowhere towns or our nothing places
But we're trash, you and me
We're the litter on the breeze
We're the lovers on the streets
Just trash, me and you
It's in everything we do
It's in everything we do

May 4, 2019 5:48 PM

#67

Offline

Aug 2018

217

jal90 said:
@RogertheShrubber Yeah if you call discussing your statements and wanting to have a conversation because I don't take what you present for granted "antagonizing you" then I think I'm right in saying that you are acting victimistic.

Then again, if you don't want to go on with the discussion, feel free to, it's not an obligation and it's not like I haven't left discussions many times because I didn't feel like it. If you want, we discuss. That's all I'm going to say.

Hope this sets things up.

dude you called me a child (and don't even come back to me with some halfassed comment about me acting childish when literally the opposite is true, you were the one being petty and vindictive). It was only after this that i stopped respecting you.

the only reason I'm still here is because it seems clear to me you aren't stupid and i think there might be something to be gained from talking to you but so far it's been nothing but a frustration. Some other time maybe but at the moment I don't really feel like discussing things.

May 4, 2019 5:55 PM

#68

I watch movies/I write about movies (in Spanish)/I watch anime

Offline

Oct 2010

11734

RogertheShrubber said:

jal90 said:
@RogertheShrubber Yeah if you call discussing your statements and wanting to have a conversation because I don't take what you present for granted "antagonizing you" then I think I'm right in saying that you are acting victimistic.

Then again, if you don't want to go on with the discussion, feel free to, it's not an obligation and it's not like I haven't left discussions many times because I didn't feel like it. If you want, we discuss. That's all I'm going to say.

Hope this sets things up.

dude you called me a child (and don't even come back to me with some halfassed comment about me acting childish when literally the opposite is true, you were the one being petty and vindictive). It was only after this that i stopped respecting you.

the only reason I'm still here is because it seems clear to me you aren't stupid and i think there might be something to be gained from talking to you but so far it's been nothing but a frustration. Some other time maybe but at the moment I don't really feel like discussing things.

I did not call you a kid, I asked if you were a kid in an obvious attempt to tell you that you were getting childish, and I think I have every right to do so if you resort to "why do you respond if you don't want to discuss" when I have made clear again and again that I want to discuss, I just need more ground from your point and I've been asking for it. You stopped respecting me at that point and my answer wasn't exactly out of tone for what you offered.

As for why I consider that childish, I personally consider baseless assumptions that hide dumb and uncalled for accusations to be like that, but you are free to disagree.

But okay, have a nice day. I hope you like that video I linked in the previous post, regardless of our discussion I find it very cool and fascinating.

May 4, 2019 6:04 PM

#69

incrobe

Offline

Mar 2019

84

Hm, hate to disagree as an anime fan, however, this is just wrong. Paintings, photography, drawings, cave drawings. Anything labeled in the creative field entails diversity that has no bounds.

Anime does push some bounds, but it really is not even close to the "most artistically diverse".

May 4, 2019 7:53 PM

#70

Offline

Mar 2016

2038

deg said:
and if you notice on discussions here lots of source material readers says the anime adaptation is shit so just read the source material, that alone can give you an idea that the source material is more artistic

I don't think that's a very reliable way to judge anything, to be honest.

May 4, 2019 8:27 PM

#71

Offline

Jan 2009

92453

syncrogazer said:

deg said:
and if you notice on discussions here lots of source material readers says the anime adaptation is shit so just read the source material, that alone can give you an idea that the source material is more artistic

I don't think that's a very reliable way to judge anything, to be honest.

can you elaborate? i mean you remove the additional comment i made about "(or they "the source material" expressed more the creativity of the original author)" and its been known that anime adaptations usually cut a lot of content from the source material

May 4, 2019 8:29 PM

#72

LeonhartAugust

Voltekka!

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Sep 2017

4630

I don’t think anime is that diverse...

Plus, most anime suffer from same-face syndrome.

May 5, 2019 1:19 AM

#73

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Mar 2017

70

RogertheShrubber said:

Irka4 said:

RogertheShrubber said:

Irka4 said:

RogertheShrubber said:

jal90 said:

RogertheShrubber said:

jal90 said:

RogertheShrubber said:
I'm gonna have to disagree pretty strongly, anime (or rather animation) is quite possibly the least diverse artistic medium there is (with the possible exception of interactive stories like video games). That's not to say that anime isn't great in its own right and I would indeed argue that animation has some of the greatest potential for artistic expression but having been around for only 60 years or so it has yet to even come close to reaching this potential. What's more the expectations the audience places on popular media (like anime) restricts what styles and story types can be reasonably produced meaning so much of what comes out in the medium has such a similar feel to it. You might argue that this effect exists in all mediums and to a point you would be correct but with time and geographic (and therefore cultural) diversity these other mediums have had the room to explore a vastly greater variety of the possible facets of their respective mediums.

I mean, anime alone is something produced in Japan. It has its limitations because media produced by one country and one industry can only deviate as much from the norm. But animation overall is something much bigger and much more diverse than you are assuming here I think. Another different thing would be what reaches the mainstream, which tends to be safe and repetitive formulas. But there's a whole lot of experimentation with animation, there's a lot of unique animation styles and artsy stuff around the world, and there's animated productions from like everywhere in the world, each having their own ethnic or cultural approaches.

Notice I didn't say that animation wasn't diverse, I said that is was less diverse than other mediums. Which is unequivocally true.

I don't think it's "unequivocally true".

I defy anyone to name an artistic medium which is less diverse than animation and try to justify themselves with any degree of validity (notice I use this term very carefully). There will always be someone who disagrees no matter how obvious the conclusion but unless that person can produce a valid argument for their position it is immaterial to the discussion. I deny that such an argument could possibly exist, the burden of proof falls on you to contradict this.

That is fairly easy to prove mathematically. Ability to combine both music and drawings make amount of expression possible in animation more than plain music or drawings

Yikes, I did not say POTENTIAL for diversity of expression I said actual diversity I.e. what has actually thus far been produced

Then I would have to quote Jal's answer (potential for diversity is a pretty good argument for actual diversity though). I defy you to prove that music has more diversity of expression than animation

Replies can be non serious, but I believe what I am arguing for

Proving that music is more diverse should be obviously impossible, what I assume you mean to ask is to provide a reasonable argument for this being the case. This much I can do.

The main argument for a greater diversity in music is simply from the fact that it has been around for vastly longer and has been explored by individuals in a far greater variety of contexts. For example lets look at drama, if we were to estimate the number of works in animation which fall under this category a fairly charitable estimate would be around 10,000 works, if we look at dramatic music (which I will admit is somewhat vague but it's the best i can do so bare with me) a fairly uncharitable estimate of the number of such works would be around 100,000. This holds true for any such genre with far greater numbers of examples in the medium of music. Now admittedly the number of works does not necessarily indicate its diversity but I think we can all agree that there is a correlation. You might argue (and rightly so) that since animation combines a wider variety of elements that there is a greater variety of possible combinations of such elements and you would be correct but this is only a valid argument in the context of diversity of expression if we assume that music has neared its maximum capacity for expression. Otherwise the number of combinations of elements could have no effect on diversity. I would hope you would recognize that this cannot possibly be the case since the variety of combinations of elements within music is precisely infinite.

You may say there are more number of music, but in hand drawn animation, each new scene is a new piece of art, which may even rival a full music. And considering how production level skyrocketed in the last century, being around for longer don't mean as much

And within the context of this thread, you also need to specify a category within music

May 5, 2019 1:25 AM

#74

Offline

Mar 2017

70

NothingReally said:
All of anime is made in only one country, and over less than a century. Based on this we can already logically disprove this mindnumbingly silly claim.

Considering how production have skyrocketed in the last century, it is far from a silly claim. Being made in only one country make it a category, which is what we are discussing

petran79 said:
Even in animation there are features that surpass anime if you look into indie and arthouse scene. I assume you refer to the commercial anime you see on TV because even among Japan there is a big independent animation scene.
Have this book and just a glimpse suffices

That is an amazing art. But you have to specify a category within them

May 5, 2019 1:27 AM

#75

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Mar 2017

70

incrobe said:
Hm, hate to disagree as an anime fan, however, this is just wrong. Paintings, photography, drawings, cave drawings. Anything labeled in the creative field entails diversity that has no bounds.

True, and that is why we are not comparing mediums. Just how artistically diverse a specific category within them is

May 5, 2019 1:27 AM

#76

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Mar 2017

70

incrobe said:
Hm, hate to disagree as an anime fan, however, this is just wrong. Paintings, photography, drawings, cave drawings. Anything labeled in the creative field entails diversity that has no bounds.

True, and that is why we are not comparing mediums. Just comparing specific categories within them

Irka4May 5, 2019 1:31 AM

May 5, 2019 1:44 AM

#77

Tebls

Offline

Jul 2012

982

You're right, but I would argue that the diversity and range of expression can only be matched by visual novel porn games and idol gacha mobile games.

These mediums are such an elevated form of art and I agree with what you have to say here:

Irka4 said:

KreatorX said:
Paintings and music ? They have been around since centuries or even thousands of years and were simultaneously developed in nearly every civilization known to mankind.

That's too big a category

But even without that, anime include both, and make them work in perfect harmony. Anime music is also better than most music we have today, and paintings in anime can be phenomenonal

Anime just has a way of producing such unique narratives in the light novel mills. As the workhorses that are the LN authors churn the story and grind the gears of industrial mass-production, a naturally beautiful symbiosis occurs as a new anime premise is born from the crushed debris of a once imaginative tale. The face of the elegant Japanese cartoon is one never seen before, a completely new product of life in the form of a cynical, loner, otaku protagonist that spites the world around him. He is run over by a wagon carrying vitriolic vinyl records and pretentious paintings; we all know that anyone snobbish enough to enjoy these antiquated mediums are careless enough to run over the persecuted protagonist that was minding his business just looking at his phone while walking across the street. With a rose-tinted illumination shimmering onto him, he was not bothering anyone and yet was trampled by the oppressive self-centered elites in their horse-drawn carriage bought from the inherited wealth generated from exploiting the capitalistic slaves that are the LN authors. And in the carriage next to the careless conspicuous consumer of artsy-fartsy obsolete art-forms are a pair of repulsive wanton gyarus. They have no sense of decency and have the glassy-eyed faces of hollow modern musicians tattooed on the head of their mammaries.

The almighty wrath of Xenu knows no bounds as he unleashes this untimely fate on the unlucky anime community. Despite the detestable stench of contemporary art in the form of graffiti that defecates the walls or the fruitless craft of arranging culinary dishes, it is the glorious anime with aesthetic majesty that must receive the blow of death as a martyr. To atone for the sins of immoral 3DPD women and tyrannical despots of the patriarchy, cartoons from the land of the nips must take a hit and be brandished as the medium for losers. Even though it is the only mode of expression that has reached Aum Shinrikyo levels of enlightenment achievable only through a pilgrimage made to Jonestown in search of a red beverage that makes the soul sing "Oh yeah!"

But even so the heroics of Taiwanese Tapestries are not limited to the physical world, and as a red-blue alternating light shines down upon the Earth, our champion is reincarnated in another world as an Avengers anime. The real world has been wiped clean as Earth collectively received an epileptic seizure following Pikachu's gargantuan thunderbolt attack to try and save the Visual Novel H-Scene artists as they were cosplaying as non-binary Porygon.

In the new lush fantasy world that happens to look like a medieval European town, the peak of human existence, I find a strange contraption with a grey rectangular metal head on the long, hard, brown wooden shaft. The use of this object is unknown to me as I have not partaken in any physical labor in the real world or visited any Cambodian Wood Carving forums. But I figure that it may serve useful for repairing my mental fragility. Simultaneously I realize that the black leather jumpsuit that I am wearing somehow gives me the power to innately fix all 1337 of my shortcomings. Unfortunately this includes the man tits that flesh out the cleavage in the form-fitting uniform. As the anti-aging effects begin to take effect, my mental age starts to approach my physical age and self-awareness appears in my brain. I look around upon the ignorant naked bystanders that surround me as if I was in a hentai harem, without any awareness of the situation due to their lack of Avengers-based superpowers. And should I at their harmless innocence, melt, as I do? Their naivety astounds me and once again I am the only one with a clue and realize the error in my ways.

To conquer the isekai universe and stake claim on my 42 2-D virgin waifus, I must defeat the false divinity that is HeyZeus Christopher who forsake weeaboos by making them the laughingstock of the physical world. To defeat him, I would need the help of my tomodachis in the form of big breasted VN game-chan and bespectacled third-wheel gacha game-kun. As 3 unique mediums with nakama powers, HeyZeus stands no chance against our unrelenting honor. We entered his chambers by bribing his loyal guard, a yellow kuma that may or may not look like the Chinese prime minister, with honey. As the door cracked open, the hideous normie image reared its grotesque mask.

"He wept out of six eyes; and down three chins,
tears gushed together with a bloody froth.
Within each mouth – he used it like a grinder –
with gnashing teeth he tore to bits a sinner,
so that he brought much pain to three at once."

And then we stabbed the demon of Hispanic name right in the groin. On the wall of the boss battle, a little light glistened and I noticed a mirror mirror on the wall. When I went to look at the fairest of them all, I was mortified to see that I had three faces: one – in front – bloodred; and then another two that, just above the midpoint of each shoulder, joined the first… Looking down with my horror-filled eyes, the sword of a stranger protruded out of my bulge with the skeletons of my friends on the side and I stumbled to the ground, passing out in the process.

As the folds in my eyes unraveled I noticed that I was back in the 3DPD world, but something was different. Everyone was carrying a dakimakura and the hospital workers were all using oppai mousepads. I realized I succeeded in making anime mainstream and I was happy at last. Finally the superior style of craft has become the norm. At long last Mongolian Spearfishing has come to relished as the adaptable model that it has always been. As I sit back and look up at a giant electronic billboard in Akihabara, I see the eyes of Yamakan. Yamakan's eyes are blue and gigantic—their retinas are one yard high. They look out of no face, but, instead, from a pair of enormous yellow spectacles which pass over a nonexistent nose. With his gaze over the grey pavement, I knew anime had saved the world.

May 5, 2019 2:11 AM

#78

DeadIEnd

Offline

Dec 2007

1743

Tebls said:
As the folds in my eyes unraveled I noticed that I was back in the 3DPD world, but something was different. Everyone was carrying a dakimakura and the hospital workers were all using oppai mousepads. I realized I succeeded in making anime mainstream and I was happy at last. Finally the superior style of craft has become the norm. At long last Mongolian Spearfishing has come to relished as the adaptable model that it has always been. As I sit back and look up at a giant electronic billboard in Akihabara, I see the eyes of Yamakan. Yamakan's eyes are blue and gigantic—their retinas are one yard high. They look out of no face, but, instead, from a pair of enormous yellow spectacles which pass over a nonexistent nose. With his gaze over the grey pavement, I knew anime had saved the world.

Thank you for contributing to the progress of humanity high lord of diginity and culture. You and Elon Musk saved us from turning completely to clowns.

May 5, 2019 3:00 AM

#79

Kurgo

Offline

Apr 2017

844

Irka4 said:

incrobe said:
Hm, hate to disagree as an anime fan, however, this is just wrong. Paintings, photography, drawings, cave drawings. Anything labeled in the creative field entails diversity that has no bounds.

True, and that is why we are not comparing mediums. Just how artistically diverse a specific category within them is

And who is the arbiter of what a category actually is, exactly? Asian literature is a category of global literature, is it not? That alone is a few thousand times more diverse than anime ever has or will ever be, I reckon.
Hell, Japanese gaming alone is more diverse than anime. It spans from something like Mario and Zelda to Dark Souls, from Virtua Fighter to Shadow of the Colossus, from Pac-man to Steins;Gate. Games have music, animation, voice acting and unlike anime you actually interact with them, rather than just consuming them passively. Even without dragging literature, paintings or music in it, anime isn't the most artistically diverse anything, to be honest.

"The problem with defining even an aspect of your personality by something that you like, is that criticism of that product appears to you to be criticism of you personally. I find it to be a very harmful attitude, [...] you can't rationally discuss a product because you've started to define yourself by its very existence."

John Bain

May 5, 2019 3:36 AM

#80

ObscureObsidian

Offline

Nov 2014

1307

I don't think so. Also, saying that anime is superior to other arts is a pretty stereotypical weeaboo thing to say,

May 5, 2019 4:09 AM

#81

Ehta

Offline

Mar 2015

808

Nah, that's totally not true.

But I do think Anime, or Japanese cartoons, is the superior animation medium.

woah there

May 5, 2019 4:45 AM

#82

Offline

Mar 2017

70

Kurgo said:

Irka4 said:

True, and that is why we are not comparing mediums. Just how artistically diverse a specific category within them is

And who is the arbiter of what a category actually is, exactly? Asian literature is a category of global literature, is it not? That alone is a few thousand times more diverse than anime ever has or will ever be, I reckon.
Hell, Japanese gaming alone is more diverse than anime. It spans from something like Mario and Zelda to Dark Souls, from Virtua Fighter to Shadow of the Colossus, from Pac-man to Steins;Gate. Games have music, animation, voice acting and unlike anime you actually interact with them, rather than just consuming them passively. Even without dragging literature, paintings or music in it, anime isn't the most artistically diverse anything, to be honest.

Are they actually more diverse in artistic expression than anime though? Most older literature is written in same mundane style and lacking creativity. Modern Asian literature is a formidable force, but anime win out in its constant creativity

May 5, 2019 4:47 AM

#83

Nazcaa

Offline

Aug 2018

311

I would say it’s not the most diverse due to its age, lack of cultural diversity, and difficulty to produce (which means less people can make it, which means less people of different ages, cultures and walks of life are making it. Even a child can write a book). Although, I would say it (and animation in general) has the potential to be the most diverse (video games have miles more potential than anything else though imo). Also, I would probably agree that it is at least amongst the top, if not the top in allowing for artistic/human expression.

May 5, 2019 4:52 AM

#84

Moe_Blob

Offline

Aug 2017

544

that's an incredibly bold statement, and while i hate to disagree, it's hard to say that a medium full of identical high school rom coms and fantasy shows is the pinnacle of human art. it is diverse, and can say a lot to a lot of people in fascinating ways, it's impossible to say that as a medium it expresses more than other forms of art or music, etc

** http://chng.it/4VNvXWK4hP **

** http://chng.it/W4WfLBCWqF **

** http://chng.it/mSbnSZW9QZ **

May 5, 2019 8:02 AM

#85

Offline

Mar 2016

2038

deg said:
can you elaborate?

First of all sourcefags say that about literally anything, so I don't see their complaining as very meaningful or even necessarily about the artistry itself. Second of all, being based on some kind of source material in and of itself does not equate to 'limited artistry.' The original author doesn't have a monopoly on creativity, though obviously their vision is being reinterpreted by several individuals (writers, directors, producers, executives etc.) and then created by hundreds of others, I think one can only make a superficial complaint about the 'assembly line process' of creating anime that isn't very convincing because manga and light novels, while worked on by less people are no less commercial. There is just so much that can be expressed visually and otherwise in anime that just can't be in a manga or a light novel that I just don't believe it would be secondary to these other mediums in expression or creativity just because they are not original.

And anyway, manga itself (though obviously not the only source but a big one and one that gets the most complaints) is a very limited medium to begin with.

syncrogazerMay 5, 2019 8:20 AM

May 5, 2019 9:11 AM

#86

Offline

Jan 2009

92453

syncrogazer said:

deg said:
can you elaborate?

First of all sourcefags say that about literally anything, so I don't see their complaining as very meaningful or even necessarily about the artistry itself. Second of all, being based on some kind of source material in and of itself does not equate to 'limited artistry.' The original author doesn't have a monopoly on creativity, though obviously their vision is being reinterpreted by several individuals (writers, directors, producers, executives etc.) and then created by hundreds of others, I think one can only make a superficial complaint about the 'assembly line process' of creating anime that isn't very convincing because manga and light novels, while worked on by less people are no less commercial. There is just so much that can be expressed visually and otherwise in anime that just can't be in a manga or a light novel that I just don't believe it would be secondary to these other mediums in expression or creativity just because they are not original.

And anyway, manga itself (though obviously not the only source but a big one and one that gets the most complaints) is a very limited medium to begin with.

you lost me on your opening post there, if a lot of this sourcefags are saying that the adaptation is rushed or cut a lot of content for example then of course the source material can give better expression of its story telling for example

a recent example is the Toaru Majutsu no Index 3 anime

May 5, 2019 9:22 AM

#87

Offline

Mar 2016

2038

deg said:
you lost me on your opening post there, if a lot of this sourcefags are saying that the adaptation is rushed or cut a lot of content for example then of course the source material can give better expression of its story telling for example

Well yeah, when it comes to the amount of information the source can obviously hold more. But anime can do a lot more than just 'tell a story' and the impossibility of telling the exact the same story should be a given. The source and the anime aren't equivalent, that's the whole point. Also, I don't see 'cutting' or even rearranging content as a wholly destructive activity but sourcefags will never admit to that.

May 5, 2019 9:32 AM

#88

Offline

Jan 2009

92453

syncrogazer said:

deg said:
you lost me on your opening post there, if a lot of this sourcefags are saying that the adaptation is rushed or cut a lot of content for example then of course the source material can give better expression of its story telling for example

Well yeah, when it comes to the amount of information the source can obviously hold more. But anime can do a lot more than just 'tell a story' and the impossibility of telling the exact the same story should be a given. The source and the anime aren't equivalent, that's the whole point. Also, I don't see 'cutting' or even rearranging content as a wholly destructive activity but sourcefags will never admit to that.

if you lose a lot of information then of course it will fail to tell the story the source material intended to provide so what do you mean by more than just tell a story? anime is a visual story telling medium

and yes anime adaptations and the source material are different, because anime adaptations are usually just one huge advertisement for the source material anyway, so they want fans to experience the source material but for me im too lazy to do that

May 5, 2019 9:37 AM

#89

Offline

Jul 2018

564612

syncrogazer said:

And anyway, manga itself (though obviously not the only source but a big one and one that gets the most complaints) is a very limited medium to begin with.

Add also that in contrast to music and literature, manga medium was considered dangerous as a whole in the 50s and 60s. Same for comics with the infamous comics code. It took quite a while for comics to be accepted into the mainstream culture. Video games still struggle, including censorship + toys stigma.
While animation even after 70 years still suffers from the Disney stigma

Newer generations are more accepting towards those mediums

May 5, 2019 9:42 AM

#90

Offline

Mar 2016

2038

deg said:
if you lose a lot of information then of course it will fail to tell the story the source material intended to provide so what do you mean by more than just tell a story? anime is a visual story telling medium

A list of events might be considered a story, but that's not very interesting is it? I don't know maybe I'm just weird, but I don't watch anime just to amass as much information as possible.

You have a very cynical outlook on this. Why even watch anime at all if you think it is so inferior to the original just by its relation to it?

May 5, 2019 9:46 AM

#91

Offline

Jan 2009

92453

syncrogazer said:

deg said:
if you lose a lot of information then of course it will fail to tell the story the source material intended to provide so what do you mean by more than just tell a story? anime is a visual story telling medium

A list of events might be considered a story, but that's not very interesting is it? I don't know maybe I'm just weird, but I don't watch anime just to amass as much information as possible.

You have a very cynical outlook on this. Why even watch anime at all if you think it is so inferior to the original just by its relation to it?

you did not explain what you mean by anime is more than just telling a story

lol nah but i am usually picky on what anime adaptations i watch, and i usually give more high scores on original anime

May 5, 2019 9:47 AM

#92

Cabron

Offline

Jan 2013

5351

Yomiyuki said:
there is no comparison. people seriously comparing cartoons to anime are deluded.
>inb4 gero comes back and writes essays on how batman the animated series is better than cowboy bebop

heh you sure got em...

>batman tas
>cowboy bebop

Those two really?
That's still surface level lol

Please learn about cel animation and its technical process.
Learn how special effects and backlighting were done without computers.

May 5, 2019 9:57 AM

#93

Offline

Mar 2016

2038

deg said:
you did not explain what you mean by anime is more than just telling a story

It seems your opinion rests on the idea that 'more is better' in some weird numerical sense like the amount of words in a document without regard to anything else.

It isn't something unique to anime, manga also tells stories but as the audience our experience of it as entertainment (or art) should be more than just its formal manner of telling of it.

syncrogazerMay 5, 2019 10:01 AM

May 5, 2019 10:07 AM

#94

Offline

Jan 2009

92453

syncrogazer said:

deg said:
you did not explain what you mean by anime is more than just telling a story

It seems your opinion rests on the idea that 'more is better' in some weird numerical sense like the amount of words in a document without regard to anything else.

It isn't something unique to anime, manga also tells stories but as the audience our experience of it as entertainment (or art) should be more than just its telling of it.

no you are the one saying it like its some numerical value, im talking about the average and the worst anime adaptations here and that is sadly the majority, this anime adaptations did not capture the original artists expression of its story, and i have given one recent example already and thats Toaru Majutsu No Index 3

heck i praise anime adaptations like Devilman Crybaby that changes and added somethings to make it modern and the awesome action or awesome visual experience that Mob Pyscho anime adaptation is

May 5, 2019 10:20 AM

#95

Offline

Mar 2016

2038

deg said:
this anime adaptations did not capture the original artists expression of its story

Now we're not even on the same subject anymore. Being unfaithful isn't the same thing as being limited in creative expression. Even if only one chapter of a thousand chapter manga is adapted into an anime movie with a lot of revisions, said movie can still have a level of artistic expression different, and perhaps even greater than from some perspective, the original manga. I don't think that's a crazy idea to have.

I'm only talking about numbers because that's how it feels like you're approaching this subject. If you can somehow prove to me that this is not how you feel you're not doing a very good job of it. If you're just arguing that adaptions suck than there's nothing I can say about that because that is just your opinion (oddly taken from what other people say), but it's not really the point of this conversation, as I see it, or this thread.

I was going to add this to my previous post, but figured you wouldn't see it by the time I edited it: at bare minimum everything tells a story, but we should do more when talking about entertainment than 'this told a story' and this 'adaption told a slightly different story' as a way of judging its artistic merit

syncrogazerMay 5, 2019 10:29 AM

May 5, 2019 10:22 AM

#96

Latt

Offline

Jan 2017

244

I love anime obviusoly but Music take the dub on this one

Weekly Anime Podcast: Apple
Weekly Anime Podcast: Spotify

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May 5, 2019 10:30 AM

#97

Yomiyuki

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Sep 2012

4153

Cabron said:

Yomiyuki said:
there is no comparison. people seriously comparing cartoons to anime are deluded.
>inb4 gero comes back and writes essays on how batman the animated series is better than cowboy bebop

heh you sure got em...

>batman tas
>cowboy bebop

Those two really?
That's still surface level lol

drives the point home better than if I said anything else.

Oh maybe, maybe it's the clothes we wear
The tasteless bracelets and the dye in our hair
Or maybe, maybe it's our nowhere towns or our nothing places
But we're trash, you and me
We're the litter on the breeze
We're the lovers on the streets
Just trash, me and you
It's in everything we do
It's in everything we do

May 5, 2019 10:34 AM

#98

Offline

Jan 2009

92453

syncrogazer said:

deg said:
this anime adaptations did not capture the original artists expression of its story

Now we're not even on the same subject anymore. Being unfaithful isn't the same thing as being limited in creative expression. Even if only one chapter of a thousand chapter manga is adapted into an anime movie with a lot of revisions, said movie can still have a level of artistic expression different, and perhaps even greater than, the original manga. I don't think that's a crazy idea to have.

I'm only talking about numbers because that's how it feels like you're approaching this subject. If you can somehow prove to me that this is not how you feel you're not doing a very good job of it. If you're just arguing that adaptions suck than there's nothing I can say about that, but it's not really the point of this conversation, as I see it, or this thread.

I was going to add this to my previous post, but figured you wouldn't see it by the time I edited it: at bare minimum everything tells a story, but we should do more when talking about entertainment than 'this told a story' and this 'adaption told a slightly different story' as a way of judging its artistic merit

you ignored my second paragraph that tells im not looking for a 1:1 adaptation or being a purist about the anime adaptations

let me rephrase that to this anime adaptations did not even capture the original artists significant expression of its story, One Punch Man season 2 for example did not even exceed the visual experience that manga has, Toaru Majutsu No Index 3 did not even make a lot of sense and it got bad visual art too

we are talking about art and anime is also an art of story telling

May 5, 2019 10:36 AM

#99

TheAskald

Offline

Aug 2015

318

music. enough said.
Even in one single genre, there's enough diversity for several generations.

May 5, 2019 10:42 AM

#100