Your opinion on the lauded "nihontō?" (日本刀) and the greatest weapon in the world, the honourable katena?
With the isekai explosion in full swing, I'm sure you'll be seeing some more nihonto (Japanese Sword) and katena masturbation, along with a full complement of admiration and fascination by the hapless in-world fodder peoples. U know wat I mean >.o Disclaimer: I know how to spell Katana. That aside, my glorious state of open-carry and campus-carry firearms is now legalizing open carry of swords and other large blades, starting September 1st, meaning I get to make other people too, understand what it feel like to get cut, bitch nihonto feels like slicing through their flesh. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/08/17/texas-about-to-legalize-open-carry-big-knives-and-swords.html In a twist on typical open-carry laws that deal with guns, Texas starting Sept. 1 will end its ban on the open-carry of any blade longer than five-and-a-half inches. |
MortalMelancholyAug 18, 2017 1:23 PM
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| I can't tell if you are asking a question or letting us know that texas lets people be weebs in public |
| I have no special opinion of katanas. They're just another style of sword, and not my favorite either. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| I already see some LARP sessions ending in tragedy. God bless Texas. |
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| I think the best reply I can give to you is by re-posting the same video you put there. |
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| Katana is a cool looking sword that gets too much media exposure. European longswords, daneaxes and halberds are way cooler imo. But that's just my HEMA nerdism speaking :P Carrying swords makes you look cool, but since you can already carry guns... Dunno. Stuff like this would never get allowed where I live. |
| @CondemneDio European longswords and katanas only have in common the loose "sword" term. It's pretty hard to say one is cooler than the other when they're totally not the same thing. I never saw a single "katana vs nordic swords" argument that didn't look like "Goku vs Saitama". Not the same thing, not the same world, not the same purpose. |
Prophetess of the Golden Era  |
Clebardman said: @CondemneDio European longswords and Katanas only have in common the loose "sword" term. it's pretty hard to say one is cooler than the other when they're totally not the same thing. I never saw a single "katana vs nordic Swords" argument that didn't look like "Goku vs Saitama". Not the same thing, not the same world, not the same purpose. Kind of true, and kind of not. Katana and longsword filled pretty much the same role of "all-around flesh-cutter". Although the longsword is more versatile, because you could use it as a mace/warpick and half-swording was commonplace. But I guess it's comparing green apples and green pears. |
| +1 for Kill Bill I guess the only other reason for you to be carrying around a katena is to commit seppuku so, have at it. |
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| @CondemneDio I'm no expert, but I'd say falchions/scimitars and other single cutting edge curved blades (like the katana) were the all-around flesh-cutter. Like, the weapons are so different in concept (double edge straight vs single edge curved) that they can't be used for the same things. From my understanding, curved edges were popular in regions were cloth armor was predominant, because it's just much more efficient at going through that than a balanced european sword made for ease of use and with years of practice in mind (yeah, japanese swordsmen put lots of practice in it, but you can't say the same about other cleavers like the falchion or scimitar wich aren't generally considered very noble) European swords actually ended up spawning thrust-attacks only weapons, while single edge curved blades stayed slashing tools till the end. |
DeathkoAug 18, 2017 1:59 PM
Prophetess of the Golden Era |
Clebardman said: @CondemneDio I'm no expert, but I'd say falchions/scimitars and other single cutting edge curved blades (like the katana) were the all-around flesh-cutter. Like, the weapons are so different in concept (double edge straight vs single edge curved) that they can't be used for the same things. From my understanding, curved edges were popular in regions were cloth armor was predominant, because it's just much more efficient at going through that than a balanced european sword made for ease of use and with years of practice in mind (yeah, japanese swordsmen put lots of practice in it, but you can't say the same about other cleavers like the falchion or scimitar wich aren't generally considered very noble) I might have some unclear aspects with this, but the longsword and falchion were used the same way, but the longsword replaced falchions and shields when plate armor became more common. No need for a shield if your armor deflects most attacks, so you get to use two hands on the weapon. The longsword is a great cutting weapon, or even a thrusting weapon, depending on the blade profile. And yes, what the combatants had to deal with in terms of armor shapes what weapons were used. A katana and a longsword both can't cut through plate armor, which is why poloearms and maces/warhammers were used to bust armored opponents. In terms of the most optimal curvature on the blade, a recurve blade seem sto be the best: kukris are efficient in cutting cloth, but a katana has considerably more difficulty in doing so. Of course this all depends on the quality of the blades. On an aesthetic standpoint, I like the longsword most, then scimitars, and the katana the least (of these 3). But I like 'em all :) Edit: "longsword and falchion were used the same way" As in the same purpose. |
| My opinion is: go big or go home, Ōdachi FTW! |
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CondemneDio said: Clebardman said: @CondemneDio European longswords and Katanas only have in common the loose "sword" term. it's pretty hard to say one is cooler than the other when they're totally not the same thing. I never saw a single "katana vs nordic Swords" argument that didn't look like "Goku vs Saitama". Not the same thing, not the same world, not the same purpose. Kind of true, and kind of not. Katana and longsword filled pretty much the same role of "all-around flesh-cutter". Although the longsword is more versatile, because you could use it as a mace/warpick and half-swording was commonplace. But I guess it's comparing green apples and green pears. Well, platemail against platemail, you kinda had to use your sword as a can-opener. European swords were pretty multipurpose lol. zal said: My opinion is: go big or go home, Ōdachi FTW! Or you could just go so big that it's not even a named sword type anymore.  |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| Insert "not an expert" disclaimer. Katanas are okay, but not great. A katana is two-handed with virtually no hand protection and a short blade length for a two-handed sword. Their sharpness is exaggerated too. Sure, you could chop off an unprotected head, but katanas suck against armor (as do swords generally). If I was going to carry around a sword for personal protection... Idk. It's super specialized, but maybe a rapier? It has an exceptionally long blade, is one-handed, is nimble, and has adequate hand protection. You're mostly limited to thrusting, but with a blade that long your enemy will have a much harder time getting close to you. A backsword would probably be a good choice too. If I was expecting to run into combat frequently, especially against multiple or armored opponents then I'd have to rethink it. There are too many factors to really have the perfect sword for every situation, so I might just go with a personal favorite like the longsword. It has the same general purpose as the katana whilst also being more versatile. It has a crossguard, a longer blade length, and a cutting edge on both sides as pros. |
TripleSRankAug 18, 2017 4:12 PM
| Katana is fine but I prefer European kitchen spoon. |
| My research into weaponry has led me to a number of heartbreaking realities about the Japanese katana and the many myths about its superiority. Little of this has to do with the society or culture of Japan but the material resources available (namely iron). Japanese swordsmiths demonstrated ingenuity to make the best of what little iron they had and its poor quality. Firstly, the katana was invented and forged in Japan, where most of the iron is taken from where it is mixed with sand deposits and is highly inferior to the ore mined in Europe. In comparison to medieval and Renaissance (i.e. contemporary) European blade and armor manufacture with high-temperature blast furnaces and charcoal-dust case-hardening, the Japanese method of swordmaking was less efficient, more primitive, lower temperature, and less effective at producing high-quality steel (an alloy of iron and carbon). This resulted in less-pure iron after smelting and therefore less actual steel being developed during the case-hardening process. Folding steel was not a phenomenon unique to Japan and even as early as the medieval period, Damascene blades were famous for their sharpness, high quality, and durability. Indeed, the Japanese folding method resulted in the impurities and imperfections in the steel being distributed evenly throughout the blade so that there was not any specific weak point. From the production angle, the trade of swordsmithing in Japan required a much larger time-investment in order to generate a passable blade than the more efficient medieval and Renaissance European weaponsmiths. Indeed, per capita, swords were more common in Europe during the medieval period and even moreso during the Renaissance than in Japan during the 14th through 16th centuries. During the Muromachi and Azuchi-Momoyama Periods, when heavier armor was common, katanas made up for their deficiencies with size and weight--I personally have seen katanas that date from this period in the South Korean National War Museum (relics from the Imjin War when Hideyoshi invaded Korea) and they are huge in comparison to Edo Period weapons. In many cases, during these periods, superior weapons were commonly imported from mainland Asia and aside from guns, better swords and armor were also imported from Europe due to the Namban trade for use by wealthier daimyo. European armor was also more likely to stop bullets than samurai armor. Modern-day katanas made with good steel do not require folding in order to be stronger and indeed, some metallurgical experts suggest it may be detrimental. Aside from that, given the same steel, a katana is really no better than any heavy European cavalry saber, scimitar, or longsword. |
FvlminatvsAug 18, 2017 3:15 PM
| @Darek Apparently the german equivalent of falchions, so yeah, I'm perfectly aware that single-edge curved blades ARE swords... Bring a machete to a battleground and it's a sword too. Is it similar to a longsword and can they be compared? @kawaii96desu "longsword (best melee weapon ever made)" Don't try picking a longsword in case of zombie invasion. Be that clever guy, grab a mace or spear. Even axes are a fucking pain to handle, chances are you're not gonna hit with the blade right in the plane of your movement and deliver a lame ass ripping blunt hit. |
Prophetess of the Golden Era |
| Sorry kids but I love shotguns more, pump to be exact (not that I ever handled once since CANADA *sigh* gotta go to a shooting range one day) |
  Ascended Taste I only came back to this site for the forum sets and to promote my RYM list... Anilist ftw still :dab: |
kawaii96desu said: Clebardman said: @Darek Apparently the german equivalent of falchions, so yeah, I'm perfectly aware that single-edge curved blades ARE swords... Bring a machete to a battleground and it's a sword too. Is it similar to a longsword and can they be compared? @kawaii96desu "longsword (best melee weapon ever made)" Don't try picking a longsword in case of zombie invasion. Be that clever guy, grab a mace or spear. Even axes are a fucking pain to handle, chances are you're not gonna hit with the blade right in the plane of your movement and deliver a lame ass ripping blunt hit. What you are saying basically applies to any slashing weapon. Longswords however have both blunt and thrusting attacks. And even tho my knowledge about the matter is pretty much close to non-existent I somehow managed to find a youtube video about it. I guess it's called half-swording if I spell it correctly. (might be a bit cringey) Some manuals (if I remember correctly) even say that you can unscrew the pommel and throw it at the enemy. I don't know if that's complete bullshit or not. But yea, all of that probably requires a certain amount of skill so what you are saying may be actually correct. The "throwing a pommel" at your foe is just a meme LOL, ah I'm not much of a swords enthusiast myself but I greatly enjoy that channel *ah right, it was called "End Him Rightly" http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/end-him-rightly (cringe site but for reference lol) |
Ascended Taste I only came back to this site for the forum sets and to promote my RYM list... Anilist ftw still :dab: |
kawaii96desu said: What you are saying basically applies to any slashing weapon. Longswords however have both blunt and thrusting attacks. And even tho my knowledge about the matter is pretty much close to non-existent I somehow managed to find a youtube video about it. I guess it's called half-swording if I spell it correctly. (might be a bit cringey) Some manuals (if I remember correctly) even say that you can unscrew the pommel and throw it at the enemy. I don't know if that's complete bullshit or not. But yea, all of that probably requires a certain amount of skill so what you are saying may be actually correct. >Skallagrim's beard. >Half-cringey. Pick one. Me, I pick dis.  |
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| They're cool but my favorite type of sword is the cutlass |
| "The name's Gambit. Remember it." -Gambit "X-Men '97"  |
| Mhhh... I dunno about kanata or something. I just know how to use blade for cooking stuff not for stabbing people I hate. :/ |
| Pssssh, everybody knows that damascus blades are the best. |
Katanas aren't really that great, even though they look cooler than many other swords. So I wouldn't use one. Instead, I'd use this: An Arabian falchion. Look at the beauty of it. Perfect for butchering infidels. |
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TheDeadApostle said: Katanas aren't really that great, even though they look cooler than many other swords. So I wouldn't use one. Instead, I'd use this: An Arabian falchion. Look at the beauty of it. Perfect for butchering infidels. I second this. People severely undervalue the cool factor of the falchion. |
 This glorious signature image was created by @Mayumi! I am the Arbiter of Absolute Truth, and here is my wisdom: "Anime was always influenced by the West. This is not news. Shoujo is the superior genre primarily aimed at young people. Harem/isekai are lazy genres that refuse any meaningful innovation. There is no 'Golden Age.' There will always be top-shelf anime. You should be watching Carole & Tuesday." |
TheDeadApostle said: Katanas aren't really that great, even though they look cooler than many other swords. So I wouldn't use one. Instead, I'd use this: An Arabian falchion. Look at the beauty of it. Perfect for butchering infidels. I think the modern approach to taking out infidels may be a bit more effective  |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| If you're going to carry around a sword for self-defense, its usefulness against plate armor is not an important factor. At least, until random thugs will start wearing plate armor. What's important is, katanas are rather light, and they can be quickly deployed with iaijutsu. And they still do a good job at killing people, and they look pretty cool. TripleSRank said: Katanas are okay, but not great. A katana is two-handed with virtually no hand protection and a short blade length for a two-handed sword. Their sharpness is exaggerated too. Sure, you could chop off an unprotected head, but katanas suck against armor (as do swords generally). Katana is a hand-and-a-half sword - a strong man can use it one-handed, while a weaker fighter will have to use both hands. I've only handled one katana, and it was too heavy for me to use one-handed, but that one was long as katanas go. TripleSRank said: If I was expecting to run into combat frequently, especially against multiple or armored opponents then I'd have to rethink it. More like, it's the point where you have to go with a bunch of grenades or something equally crazy. Only master swordsmen can expect to fight multiple opponents, and remain intact enough for that to happen "frequently". |
I think I will stick to gun. |
But it's important to remember that a movie review is subjective;it only gives you one person's opinion. http://www.classzone.com/books/lnetwork_gr08/page_build.cfm?content=analyz_media&ch=30 It doesn't matter if you like LoGH,Monster etc.If you are a jobless or college/school dropout living in your mom basement, you are still an unintelligent loser. Taste in anime does not make you a better person.If elitist don't exist, casual pleb and shit taste also don't exist. |
| Carrying a sword for self defense would be pretty impractical in modern times. Especially if you stay indoors most of the time, but a 5-6 inch blade seems reasonable. But if i had to I would go with a sword that has some kind of guard to protect the hand. |
flannan said: If you're going to carry around a sword for self-defense, its usefulness against plate armor is not an important factor. At least, until random thugs will start wearing plate armor. What's important is, katanas are rather light, and they can be quickly deployed with iaijutsu. And they still do a good job at killing people, and they look pretty cool. TripleSRank said: Katanas are okay, but not great. A katana is two-handed with virtually no hand protection and a short blade length for a two-handed sword. Their sharpness is exaggerated too. Sure, you could chop off an unprotected head, but katanas suck against armor (as do swords generally). Katana is a hand-and-a-half sword - a strong man can use it one-handed, while a weaker fighter will have to use both hands. I've only handled one katana, and it was too heavy for me to use one-handed, but that one was long as katanas go. TripleSRank said: If I was expecting to run into combat frequently, especially against multiple or armored opponents then I'd have to rethink it. More like, it's the point where you have to go with a bunch of grenades or something equally crazy. Only master swordsmen can expect to fight multiple opponents, and remain intact enough for that to happen "frequently". I thought katanas were heavy. At least if Rurouni Kenshin is anything to go by. ClickBaitBuster said: sorry to break it to you guys but the longsword is a complete bullshit compared to the katana, even a man with a gun can't stand a chance against an experienced katana user, cuz it can cut throught bullets and shit, I saw that once in a movie, or was it a cartoon? anyway yor favorite swordu is shit unless its the katana...fite me. Appalling baiting skills. |
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| @TheDeadApostle They are, because the blade is thicher than most european swords. They're also pretty rigid, wich is indeed good for slashing through soft things, but not so great when you hit something hard. The thing is, swords require tons of practice, and their main edge over something that requires 0 skills like a flanged mace are their ease of use, and length. If I wanted to learn fencing for self-defense (since that's kinda the context of the thread), I wouldn't do it with a sword that is on the lower end of range and ease of use. Might as well carry a rapier around, you'll gain 15 cms of blade lenght and a basket hilt for the same weight, plus a much more flexible blade. Spears>>>swords anyway. Swords are the medieval equivalent of those infinite ammo basic weapons in FPS. You pull them out when you're out of other solutions and hold them tight, hoping for a miracle. I'm pretty sure any samurai who valued his life prioritized archery, horse-riding and spear training over chopping bamboo and tatamis for winter (^: |
DeathkoAug 21, 2017 5:05 PM
Prophetess of the Golden Era |
Clebardman said: @TheDeadApostle They are, because the blade is thicher than most european swords. They're also pretty rigid, wich is indeed good for slashing through soft things, but not so great when you hit something hard. The thing is, swords require tons of practice, and their main edge over something that requires 0 skills like a flanged mace are their ease of use, and length. If I wanted to learn fencing for self-defense (since that's kinda the context of the thread), I wouldn't do it with a sword that is on the lower end of range and ease of use. Might as well carry a rapier around, you'll gain 15 cms of blade lenght and a basket hilt for the same weight, plus a much more flexible blade. Spears>>>swords anyway. Swords are the medieval equivalent of those infinite ammo basic weapons in FPS. You pull them out when you're out of other solutions and hold them tight, hoping for a miracle. I'm pretty sure any samurai who valued his life prioritized archery, horse-riding and spear training over chopping bamboo and tatamis for winter (^: Yeah I think I've read that somewhere before. Swords were more of a last resort for samurai, and they used naginatas (i.e spears) more. |
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flannan said: TripleSRank said: Katanas are okay, but not great. A katana is two-handed with virtually no hand protection and a short blade length for a two-handed sword. Their sharpness is exaggerated too. Sure, you could chop off an unprotected head, but katanas suck against armor (as do swords generally). Katana is a hand-and-a-half sword - a strong man can use it one-handed, while a weaker fighter will have to use both hands. I've only handled one katana, and it was too heavy for me to use one-handed, but that one was long as katanas go. Using a katana with one hand would be unwieldy and generally less effective even if you could pull it off. The hilt becomes too long for its own good; the lack of hand protection becomes more pronounced, and the single cutting edge becomes a more of a liability if you try to use it single-handed. It's a pretty bad idea imo unless you're missing a hand, and by then you are probably in an unsolvable mess anyway. A backsword is comparably heavy with a single cutting edge, but it has a bit more blade length, a much shorter hilt, and would give you a basket or shell guard too. If you want a one-handed sword with a single cutting edge then I think it would be the better choice. flannan said: TripleSRank said: If I was expecting to run into combat frequently, especially against multiple or armored opponents then I'd have to rethink it. More like, it's the point where you have to go with a bunch of grenades or something equally crazy. Only master swordsmen can expect to fight multiple opponents, and remain intact enough for that to happen "frequently". This is true for the most part, but this is an irregular topic anyway. Thugs in the real world have a high likelihood of carrying a gun, at which point the entire discussion is moot. If multiple unprotected knife-wielding thugs came along I'd probably stick with the rapier; but if they were protected somewhat (even if it isn't plate armor) then I might want something different. Of course, if there's more than one thug then ideally speaking, running away might be the better choice. |
| Katana are definitely fantastic, but let's not forget some of the other glorious blades out there. Longswords, sabers, scimitars. They all have some pretty fantastic specimens. This is currently the coolest sword in my private arsenal:  I do live in Texas, so I could theoretically carry it around come September. Trouble is, it's flippin' huge, there's no easy way to haul it around, and it's heavy enough that a person of my strength can't wield it all that deftly in the extremely unlikely chance that I'd every actually need it. Plus, it looks rather menacing in person, and I'd really rather not go around striking unease into the hearts of those around me. A few years back, I inadvertently scared the living heck out of a Subway employee when I walked in wearing a face-obscuring Boba Fett hood (it was really cold.) I'd rather not cause any more heart attacks if I can reasonably avoid it. Consequently, I intend to (finally) get a katana - they're lighter, they have easier methods to carry them, and they look more noble than menacing. I just need to sit down and take the time to research them properly so that I can get a decent one, and maintain it properly. kawaii96desu said: Katana are inferior to long swords (best melee weapon ever made), sry weebs. Didn't read half of the topic btw, but it's good to see the "great" USA looking more and more like it's in the middle ages or smh. Also I don't really understand the need of such thing, aren't firearms allowed? Why would you even pick a fucking sword (time for a Kirito ref). Like what's even the point in carrying something you can't even use? B-b-but it looks badass! Yea, probably in the right hands, but 99% of the time it's cringey as fuck seeing a 40 kg (90 lbs) nerd with a katana that he can barely lift. |
| Important Note: I no longer - in any way, shape, or form - consider myself a moral nihilist (even in my old, convoluted definition of the term). I very much do believe there is such a thing as objective good and evil. In addition, I apologize for any of the posts I've made that are rude, aggressive, or otherwise unbecoming. I've always striven to walk a path befitting a follower of Christ, and now recognize some of my old comments here as misguided if not outright wrong. If you happen upon them, pray do not let them darken your view of the God I serve. He is kind, even if I, at times, have not been. |
TheDeadApostle said: flannan said: If you're going to carry around a sword for self-defense, its usefulness against plate armor is not an important factor. At least, until random thugs will start wearing plate armor. What's important is, katanas are rather light, and they can be quickly deployed with iaijutsu. And they still do a good job at killing people, and they look pretty cool. I thought katanas were heavy. At least if Rurouni Kenshin is anything to go by. Wikipedia gives 1.1-1.3 kg (2-3 pounds) as katana's weight. And probably some more for the scabbard. Somewhat heavy for a fashion accessory, but reasonable for a weapon. For comparison, longswords are given as 1.1-1.8 kg, knightly sword at 1.1 kg, Desert Eagle (a giant pistol) as 1,897 g (4.2 lb), and more practical Glock pistol as about 600g (1 lb). TripleSRank said: flannan said: Katana is a hand-and-a-half sword - a strong man can use it one-handed, while a weaker fighter will have to use both hands. I've only handled one katana, and it was too heavy for me to use one-handed, but that one was long as katanas go. Using a katana with one hand would be unwieldy and generally less effective even if you could pull it off. The hilt becomes too long for its own good; the lack of hand protection becomes more pronounced, and the single cutting edge becomes a more of a liability if you try to use it single-handed. It's a pretty bad idea imo unless you're missing a hand, and by then you are probably in an unsolvable mess anyway. A backsword is comparably heavy with a single cutting edge, but it has a bit more blade length, a much shorter hilt, and would give you a basket or shell guard too. If you want a one-handed sword with a single cutting edge then I think it would be the better choice. Backsword sure is comparable to katana, but it doesn't have as much potential as a fashion accessory. Also, at least where I live, we haven't been invaded by Japan ever, but backswords might get confused as being homage to any of the armies that hold more relevance in our history. By the way, longer handle has about the same meaning as a pommel on a medieval sword - it serves as a counterweight to provide balance. |
| @Phendrus Just out of curiosity, is that a fantasy themed weapoon, and if so, where from (or original)? It has the problem most common with fantasy weapons: unnecessary and even harmul (to the user) spikes everywhere. @flannan Dude, have you seen how cool backswords are? I'd pick a nice backsword or a sidesword over a katana, if only because I could use a buckler too, if necessary. |
CondemneDioAug 21, 2017 11:00 PM
| C'mon guys, look at the awe and amazement katena cause! |
| Be thankful for the wisdom granted to you. |
| Is it bad that this thread is making me want to walk around with a sword? Just to try it out and see some reactions ya know? Probably go with a longsword instead of a katana tho. Or maybe a battleaxe. Yea, definitely a battleaxe. though I feel like at least a couple kinds of axes are cool to carry around already.. |
Any decent sword could do this stuff. The abuse of the swords makes me cringe :D There's also the fact that different steels are harder or softer, and we have no idea what steel they cut in the video, so... |
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