Sure , why not ... A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent. Isn't this basically what you just did by making that "half joke" ? I was very clearly implying that the topic should be up for discussion and not immediately dismissed using the "her body, her choice" argument because i find it absurd to begin with. Which is why this is discussed before any form of consummation takes place ? The scenario you are discussing is not even likely to happen unless one of them changes their mind afterwards, in which case, the opinion of the one who "breaches" the agreement should be disregarded regardless if its the male or the female. That's how rights are preserved, by signing a contract beforehand, any form of "change of heart" that comes afterwards is rendered moot. traed said: If they have no relationship there is nothing to discuss. It usually is something discussed between two people because it influences their relationship if they have any. How/Why are they having a baby together if they're not in a relationship ?! ... traed said: To suggest a man should have a say is making an argument that does not need to be made thus the only conclusion that can be made is you must arguing for the only part where a woman gets more say, which is the final say. It is not absurd to draw such a conclusion from such vague statements of false arguments. You read a simple one liner stating that "this topic needs to be discussed further" and derived what seems to be in your own wording "a vague statements of false arguments". The actual/initial implied argument that "a man should have a say" is only false from your perspective and according to your own standards and no one else's. But you're doing a fine job on agreeing with yourself, please dont stop on my account. |
ZA_WAYDFeb 28, 2016 3:59 AM
 |
ZRoT said: mara_ said: It has no memories, no knowledge, no nothing. Religion is for stupid people to get on with living. This topic is about abortion, not religion. Why bring it up? Are you implying only people who are religious disagree with abortion? Bringing it up since most people who are against abortion are religious. I am unable to see any logical reason why abortion should be illegal. |
 |
| I think abortion is fine if both of the parents don't want a child but then you have people that believe its wrong for taking a life. its just a fetus it doesn't have dreams yet. but if one of the parents wants the child you should not have an abortion. |
| It quite a strange question to ask in an anime/manga dedicated forum, I think. But to answer it, I think it all depend's on one's perspective, ethics and situation. In some worst case scenarios, I think it is definitely the right thing to do. |
EuhinFeb 28, 2016 8:39 AM
 |
| It's perfectly fine. Then yet me being okay with it could be because I just really hate kids. |
| How many abortion threads is this now? 33? Anyway, abortion is morally fine. Discussion over. |
khunter said: How many abortion threads is this now? 33? Anyway, abortion is morally fine. Discussion over. Controversial topics tend to rise from the ashes on MAL. |
| Of course a simple mistake should not cost you the next 18 years of your or a lovers life. Having children forces you down a specific path in life that rarely ends well for the parent. Especially if young at first, youth is a time for careers and growing up, not having children. Not anymore the world population is enough as it is. I'd also agree that if the father doesn't want the child but the mother decides to keep it against his wishes then he doesn't have to pay for the child. |
 |
| @ZA_WAYD No, its not because its in the form of a question. You misunderstand what "her body her choice"means. It means that "she" gets the decision. It does not mean other people can not influence that decision. It is not something you can have a legally forced joint decision. There is no way to compromise when two people want different things.The only time it makes sense for a males choice to come into play beyond influencing decisions is if he was raped by the girl or something. What kind of statement is that about them having to be in a relationship? It's not common but some girls get pregnant from one night stands and want a baby, also from rape too which is more common than you would think. Some guys have sex with girls with the intent of making them pregnant without a relationship, for example an impregnation fetish. |
Spooks said: I'd also agree that if the father doesn't want the child but the mother decides to keep it against his wishes then he doesn't have to pay for the child. I think this would be right, but as it is now the mother decides the fate of the child and the father has no say on the matter. So if the child is unwanted for the father, it is a 18 year long punishment. |
CondemneDio said: Spooks said: I'd also agree that if the father doesn't want the child but the mother decides to keep it against his wishes then he doesn't have to pay for the child. I think this would be right, but as it is now the mother decides the fate of the child and the father has no say on the matter. So if the child is unwanted for the father, it is a 18 year long punishment. We have too many older women getting pregnant from young school boys aged 13 up and they instead of going to jail get the courts to agree that the boys have to pay child support for 18 years. http://www.businessinsider.com/male-statutory-rape-victim-nick-olivas-must-pay-child-support-2014-9?IR=T |
|
Spooks said: CondemneDio said: I think this would be right, but as it is now the mother decides the fate of the child and the father has no say on the matter. So if the child is unwanted for the father, it is a 18 year long punishment. We have too many older women getting pregnant from young school boys aged 13 up and they instead of going to jail get the courts to agree that the boys have to pay child support for 18 years. http://www.businessinsider.com/male-statutory-rape-victim-nick-olivas-must-pay-child-support-2014-9?IR=T Shit, that story's disturbing and scary as fuck. The amounts they have to pay are ludicrous as well. |
| the human population is getting out of control anyway. we could stand to abort a few more babies. ppl should consider adoption as on option b4 childbirth. there are way too many neglected children in the world. |
 |
| I'm a man so my opinion is without actual experience. While us men can have an opinion, would it differ if we were of the opposite sex? |
 |
| Depends on the situation If the women was raped and got pregnant then yes. If it was just due to unprotected sex, no |
 |
JudeGP said: Depends on the situation If the women was raped and got pregnant then yes. If it was just due to unprotected sex, no ...Why? If the child is unwanted, isn't it the parents decision and right to abort it? |
| If the child is unwanted leave them at an orphanage. If they don't want a child then they should have protected sex |
|
JudeGP said: If the child is unwanted leave them at an orphanage. If they don't want a child then they should have protected sex Isn't it wrong to force someone to give birth? Pregnancy isn't some rosy, easy task that you can just do for the lolz. |
| We have too many people without arguments here. So as usual, I'll post mine. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
| For the typical exceptions (e.g rape, danger to the mother's life), yes, for sure. If no exceptions apply, is a little harder for me to say yes without thinking it's hypocritical. Kagami_Hiiragi said: I'm a man so my opinion is without actual experience. While us men can have an opinion, would it differ if we were of the opposite sex? It's probably worse because, as current social and legal consensus goes, the father has no say whatsoever on his partner's decision to have an abortion, so he can only hope that she'll want to carry it to term. |
 |
traed said: @ZA_WAYD What kind of statement is that about them having to be in a relationship? It's not common but some girls get pregnant from one night stands and want a baby, also from rape too which is more common than you would think ... 3 or 4 replies later and its STILL wasn't made cristal clear that we were initially discussing married couples, not particular cases where the male is practically non existent and a girl gets impregnated after her prom night. Perhaps, this is my fault since i wasn't even aiming at building rapport. OBVIOUSLY in a situation where the male is non existent he wont get a say, he is "non existent" ... does this even need to be said ? ... |
|
PantsuPillow said: If you just want to have unprotected sex and abort every time because of it and also because you don't want to use the pill, then no. However if you got raped , condom tore , or your safe day wasn't so safe after all then yes. Also if you cannot look after the baby and know you don't have the time or money then yes. Also if you know the baby will suffer from any diseases then yes. Also if you split up with your partner then yes. Putting the baby up for adoption IS NOT an option. Children often end up in horrible homes , and very often turn out to be problem children when they come from orphanages. It is not a life I would want a child to have even if I were the one who put him up for adoption. My honest opinion is that no man or woman should be forced to have a child they don't want to. The reason I also mention men is because there are often cases of women poking holes in condoms to forcibly tie the knot , which I don't agree with. The man should also have a say whether or not he wants to have the child or not , however in today's society the man literally has no say in the matter despite it also being his child. Opinions differ about it , however due to overpopulation and other crap currently going on with society I am very pro abortion. What's the moral harm in constantly having unsafe sex and aborting? |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
TheBrainintheJar said: PantsuPillow said: If you just want to have unprotected sex and abort every time because of it and also because you don't want to use the pill, then no. However if you got raped , condom tore , or your safe day wasn't so safe after all then yes. Also if you cannot look after the baby and know you don't have the time or money then yes. Also if you know the baby will suffer from any diseases then yes. Also if you split up with your partner then yes. Putting the baby up for adoption IS NOT an option. Children often end up in horrible homes , and very often turn out to be problem children when they come from orphanages. It is not a life I would want a child to have even if I were the one who put him up for adoption. My honest opinion is that no man or woman should be forced to have a child they don't want to. The reason I also mention men is because there are often cases of women poking holes in condoms to forcibly tie the knot , which I don't agree with. The man should also have a say whether or not he wants to have the child or not , however in today's society the man literally has no say in the matter despite it also being his child. Opinions differ about it , however due to overpopulation and other crap currently going on with society I am very pro abortion. What's the moral harm in constantly having unsafe sex and aborting? One of the main reasons I mention this is because it's often people who cannot afford clinical abortions or if they come from third world countries they find themselves stuck in a position where they either don't wish to pay the fees or cannot afford the fees associated with it , or simply decide to take things into their own hands , and end up really f@#$ing up either by not working hygienically , or using dangerous methods to achieve the said abortion. I know of a woman that died by aborting on her own. She used a knitting needle to try and abort , however due to not working hygienically she got a severe infection and passed away. I didn't know her personally , however I heard that she frequently aborted her own baby's. Personally I don't think the moral harm is really that relevant because no-one get's mentally "hurt" except for the people undergoing to abortion. If a person made a choice to abort then it is their right to do so. If they are scarred by it then they probably won't get into a situation where it's necessary to abort again. |
 |
PantsuPillow said: One of the main reasons I mention this is because it's often people who cannot afford clinical abortions or if they come from third world countries they find themselves stuck in a position where they either don't wish to pay the fees or cannot afford the fees associated with it , or simply decide to take things into their own hands , and end up really f@#$ing up either by not working hygienically , or using dangerous methods to achieve the said abortion. I know of a woman that died by aborting on her own. She used a knitting needle to try and abort , however due to not working hygienically she got a severe infection and passed away. I didn't know her personally , however I heard that she frequently aborted her own baby's. Personally I don't think the moral harm is really that relevant because no-one get's mentally "hurt" except for the people undergoing to abortion. If a person made a choice to abort then it is their right to do so. If they are scarred by it then they probably won't get into a situation where it's necessary to abort again. Oh, you're talking about the logistic side instead of the moral one. I understand you better. Kagami_Hiiragi said: I'm a man so my opinion is without actual experience. While us men can have an opinion, would it differ if we were of the opposite sex? Just because I'm a man doesn't mean I can't comment on people forcing people into existence. That's like saying I can't comment on rape. Yes, childbirth and rape have a lot of similarities. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
TheBrainintheJar said: Just because I'm a man doesn't mean I can't comment on people forcing people into existence. That's like saying I can't comment on rape. Yes, childbirth and rape have a lot of similarities. Like I said, us men can have an opinion. I just said it could differ or be a different extreme if we were female. Also, bad example. Men can't give birth, but men can get raped. Though, irrevelant since I agree we can have opinions. |
|
| In short, yes, I think it is ok, with the exception of late term abortions, unless there are extenuating circumstances. What I always find disturbing about these conversations, is not whether abortion is morally right or wrong, but how many people would force others to live by their moral compass as if it was Universal or some grand truth that should dictate law. |
| |
Kagami_Hiiragi said: TheBrainintheJar said: Just because I'm a man doesn't mean I can't comment on people forcing people into existence. That's like saying I can't comment on rape. Yes, childbirth and rape have a lot of similarities. Like I said, us men can have an opinion. I just said it could differ or be a different extreme if we were female. Also, bad example. Men can't give birth, but men can get raped. Though, irrevelant since I agree we can have opinions. Men can get born. Birth isn't an isolated activity. It directly affects the born. So if a woman tells me I'm not allowed to comment on her birth, I just see an arrogant little shit who doesn't care who she hurts. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
rekindledflame said: In short, yes, I think it is ok, with the exception of late term abortions, unless there are extenuating circumstances. What I always find disturbing about these conversations, is not whether abortion is morally right or wrong, but how many people would force others to live by their moral compass as if it was Universal or some grand truth that should dictate law. Well, it is, in its core, a moral topic. And you know how it goes when people start talking about morals. Anti-abortion people also don't have any other way of battling pro-abortion opinions. |
| Actually my first thought about this would always be. If you dont want to get pregnant. Learn to fucking avoid it. We we got pills, condoms, the knowledge of the period time. Seriously people wtf how did you get in this mess. But then again of course there is still something called raping. So i just go with this. As long there is not really life i think it is oke to abort. But ad what stage is it even living? that i don't know. |
 .. |
TheBrainintheJar said: Kagami_Hiiragi said: Like I said, us men can have an opinion. I just said it could differ or be a different extreme if we were female. Also, bad example. Men can't give birth, but men can get raped. Though, irrevelant since I agree we can have opinions. Men can get born. Birth isn't an isolated activity. It directly affects the born. So if a woman tells me I'm not allowed to comment on her birth, I just see an arrogant little shit who doesn't care who she hurts. Easy to say for a man since we aren't women, but you're making a debate off of nothing since I never said we can't have an opinion which you indirectly claimed I did. You can have your say, that wasn't the point. |
|
| ABSOLUTELY! fine IMO. Why bring a child in poverty? Why bring a child if they are disabled? Why bring a child if you got raped? Why bring a child if the father is not yours? so many. If your not ready go for it. LOOK there are so many serious shit happenign around the world and people are getting cancer for talking about this topic. Peopel grow the fuck up. Who cares if they abosritaitons. That;'s there chouice |
| Have conditions that are necessary, then it is best abort the child what is born and it is suffering from neglect, discrimination, prejudice,abandonment etc. |
| Yea. She can do what she wants with her body and make her own choices. Simple as that. |
 |
Kagami_Hiiragi said: TheBrainintheJar said: Men can get born. Birth isn't an isolated activity. It directly affects the born. So if a woman tells me I'm not allowed to comment on her birth, I just see an arrogant little shit who doesn't care who she hurts. Easy to say for a man since we aren't women, but you're making a debate off of nothing since I never said we can't have an opinion which you indirectly claimed I did. You can have your say, that wasn't the point. "I'm a man so my opinion is without actual experience" You're right. I did distort this. My apologies. Now, to refocus, the sex of the person definitely influences the opinion. Women are much closer to the experience of birth and pregnancy. However, since birth isn't an isolated activity I don't buy into the whole 'men deciding for women' argument. Birth IS deciding for other people, so countering it using this is hypocritical. You didn't pull this argument but it's a common one I hear for abortions (I'm actually all for abortions but for different reasons). |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
More topics from this board
Poll: » will there be any zombie outbreak in the near future?FruitPunchBaka - 10 hours ago |
8 |
by MalchikRepaid
»»
2 minutes ago |
|
Poll: » Do you believe in moral facts? ( 1 2 )Freshell - May 5 |
52 |
by DreamWindow
»»
11 minutes ago |
|
» What do you think about education in your country?Sad - 6 hours ago |
10 |
by MalchikRepaid
»»
12 minutes ago |
|
» What do you think about law enforcement (police) in your country? ( 1 2 )Sad - Apr 16 |
56 |
by DreamWindow
»»
31 minutes ago |
|
Poll: » banality of evil and milgram experimentdeg - Yesterday |
23 |
by NoelleIsSleepy
»»
33 minutes ago |