Imaishi said: Caticia1 said: waist of time  That's what I had in mind when I read his comment. |
| Wohooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo |
| Never bothered about fanservice anyway, I just enjoy all of it. |
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merryfistmas said: If it's a situation where girls would actually be in bikinis or whatever than sure, if MC-kun is accidentally walking in on a pair of boobs for comedic purposes than no. +2 +1 for the content, +1 for using MC-kun. It makes me laugh every time. |
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merryfistmas said: Zefyris said: Fine, I will give you an actual answer, spoilers inbound. Metaphors have to serve a purpose, not just a pretext for violence or fanservice, or whatever else you're trying to cram in, I agree. In this case wedding dresses and nudity are the symbols. Wedding dresses are used through out the show to represent matrimony and traditional gender roles, conforming to society, all that. This is why Satsuki wants to wear Junketsu. She wants to be the epitome of what she considers a model human, or women, or whatever it is society wants her to be, and she does this because it affords her all of the benefits of fitting in with society, she can use it's power. Junketsu is a wedding dress btw. Ryuuko is the opposite, she's a raging lesbian and a delinquent, she gets transferred to a super uptight school (Honnouji academy) where her sister, Satsuki, is the student council president. Satsuki spends most of the show trying to force Ryuuko to conform, and wears the mask of traditional femininity to set an example, even though deep down, she doesn't want to. THis is shown by Junketsu rejecting her. Satsuki controls Junketsu with willpower (life fiber override) while Ryuuko and Senketsu become one (life fiber synchronize). This is why Ryuuko becomes immensely more powerful than Satsuki as the show progresses, she's not wearing a mask, she's being who she is, and while Satsuki may be using her facade to gain dominace over people, it's no match for embracing who you are. Satsuki says "The fact that you are embarrassed by the values of the masses proves how small you are!" which is an important moment because it's when Ryuuko realizes that being naked (being yourself and all that shit) is far more important than societies approval, which is why she becomes so much more powerful once she accepts Senketsu. Okay, now we've established what Senketsu/Ryuuko and Junketsu/Satsuki represent, let's move on. in episode 21, Ryuuko is forced to wear Junketsu, Ragyo (her mother) is forcing traditional gender roles on her and we see the life Ryuuko could have lived had she not been a delinquent lesbian. She's accepted, and gets married and does all the stuff 'normal' people do, but never really looks alive or happy. This is meant to emphasize the difference between Junketsu and Senketsu, bewteen societies acceptance, and true happiness. Notice how Mako slaps Ryuuko back to reality every time she flies off the handle, this happens in episode 12 and 21. Mako is pretty much immune to peer pressure and knows that living life wihout the mask is what really makes Ryuuko happy "Getting naked is Ryuuko's only joy in life!". KLK deals with feminism, nudity (both as a symbol and in a literal sense of how society views it as fanservice), peer pressure, fascism, and parodies many tropes from shonen and school shows at the same time. It is not a parody, but a show with parody elements. I chose to focus on a single theme, feminism and gender roles vs social acceptance, because discussing the rest would take several pages more. You have yet to make a counter argument to any point that has been made or substantiate any of your claims. I am more than willing to discuss this, but you have actually consider the arguments being given. Here is more KLK crap in case you want to read it https://myswordisunbelievablydull.wordpress.com/2014/08/15/layered-and-meta-narratives-a-la-kill-la-kill/ https://eyeforaneyepiece.wordpress.com/2014/04/06/kill-la-kill-a-love-story/ I've discovered recently that there are literally hundreds of blog posts and analysis videos attempting to break down Kill la Kill, and I find it very hard to believe that so many people analyzing this show and reaching very similar conclusions is pure coincidence and the shear amount of material on the subject should be enough to prove that it is anything but shallow. Anyway, I have to go to work. Of course I'm not going to ignore it if you post argument. You're the first one trying to argue really btw, as all I got before was the "2deep4youlolz" kind of stupid answer. So, that's a nice analysis. I won't say it's wrong, and maybe I went too far by saying that KlK's metaphor were shallow. In respect for your post, lets remove that. However, there's a huge problem remaining. The core problem in fact. Yu pretty much grazed a part of that huge problem with one of your sentences 'Junketsu is a wedding dress btw." YEs, that's right. it's a wedding dress. You actually had to precise it just to be sure that I remember that fact. Why? Because well, if you don't say that it is a wedding dress, peoples are clearly not going to guess while seeing that :  What a lovely wedding dress indeed. I suppose you're starting to see where I'm going, but lets write it clearly. That thread was about fanservice. And at no moment did you justify the over the top fanservice from kill la kill as being necessary. 1) Why is a wedding dress, the symbol that should be opposed to what Senketsu/Ryuuko represent, so lewd and revelling? 2) The amount of shown skin isn't directly linked to the amount of fanservice. You can have very fanservicy scenes with girls wearing normal clothes. It uses camera angles, lewd/suggestive poses or gestures, and so on. You can have a show without fanservice and a show with heavy fanservice with the same amount of nudity and the same clothes. Furthermore, while showing the same amount of skin, depending of the way the outfit is made, it heavily changes the amount given as well. You can have very different level of fanservice while showing the same amount of skin. I don't need to go further away than the character in my forum set. Fremy has a very revealing outfit. Yet it was never used in her anime as a fanservice shots. And this goes for other character of her show as well. When Chamo has to show her mark, which is on the upper part of her leg, a fan service oriented show would have turned the camera upward, showing her panties. RnY did the contrary, getting the camera downward, purposely avoiding a very easy to do fanservicy shot. And so on. So now that it's said, lets go back to KLK specifically. Camera angles, the way the outfits are made, the situations heavily goes toward fanservice. If they wanted to simply do the metaphor, none of this is justified. In other words, even with acknowledging what you said about the metaphor used in KLK, ther eis still no justification for the over the top fanservice. That would justify part of the fanservice, but a small part of it, not that extreme outfits for satsuki, not those moves the outfit does when it power up, not the camera angles, not the embarrassing postures, not the unnecessary sexual innuendo, and so on. KLK has over the top fanservice for the sake of fanservice only. And peoples who liked that fanservice didn't like it due to the metaphor, but liked the fanservice for what it was: over the top fanservice. We're back to my original statement. And I'm afraid you didn't write a single thing about this in your explanation. If you have something to write, or if I missed something, please point it out. |
ZefyrisDec 11, 2015 4:03 AM
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| KLK dress choices, and characters being naked aren't fanservice. They are directly relevant to the plot. There is also actual fanservice with the close ups and camera angles but it doesn't necessarily negate their purpose for existing on the show. They kinda half assed it, they made it seem like it's an integral part of the plot and motif but made sexual fanservice of it anyway. Zefyris said: How was that toothbrush scene anything else than fan service for fan service? How does it even not "feel out of place in that world" for you? It wasn't completely for the sake of it. The extreme nature of it was a self awareness directed at LN with little sisters tropes. Taking what you are making fun and indulging in it even further than normal. I hated it anyway |
tsudecimoDec 11, 2015 3:54 AM
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| I am cool with fanservice when: - A show advertises itself as an ecchi comedy from the start,so you know what to expect. -it is tastefully placed and limited. AKA its a occasional treat for the viewers rather than being like "ughh, yet another pantyshot...." Like I honestly don't mind fanservice much at all,the only problem I have is when a show starts out good,with plot progression and character development but then, halfway through, all that progress gets thrown away for the sake of making beach and onsen episodes and then in the end the show doesn't get a conclusion because half of the episodes were wasted for fanservice. |
| I am honestly open minded about stuff like this, but sometimes, too much fanservice makes me cringe, but overall I am fine with it. |
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| Unless it's parody fanservice like in Carnival Phantasm, it turns me off if the anime is not about ecchi and virgin dreams. |
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| Fanservice in serious anime make me cringe and make my head hurt most of the time, especially sexual fanservice ones. Like, Btooom and Mirai Nikki, really? |
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Zefyris said: In other words, even with acknowledging what you said about the metaphor used in KLK, ther eis still no justification for the over the top fanservice. That would justify part of the fanservice, but a small part of it, not that extreme outfits for satsuki, not those moves the outfit does when it power up, not the camera angles, not the embarrassing postures, not the unnecessary sexual innuendo, and so on. Well, going over the top is something one can expect from people who did Tengen Toppa Gurenn Lagann. |
AzureDaora said: Fanservice in serious anime make me cringe and make my head hurt most of the time, especially sexual fanservice ones. Like, Btooom and Mirai Nikki, really? Frankly, I don't quite understand this point of view. Even serious anime need relaxing moments unless it's meant to be a thriller or horror. |
| Totally hate fanservice because it's dang useless and it's only focused for those guys with this mainstream fetishes. For me, it should be only available for ecchi or any sexual-related anime, so when I find something w/o the ecchi genre, I can conclude that there's no useless fanservice in that anime. |
| sup |
| Zefyris: all this shit about how you're not talking 'bout nudity but fan-service and how I've been a 2deep4u meanie with you is fine, but it all started with this answer you gave to me about the meaning of nudity in KlK Zefyris said: Clebardman said: Nah, I don't think the only purpose of the nudity in KlK is to criticize fanservice in other animu. Sure it does, just like how it pokes fun at filler content (episode 4, ask merryfistmas). But KlK takes place in a world where your clothes determine your social status. The main char is a lesbian outcast trying to find her place in society. her sidekick is underachiever Mako, who doesn't give a fuck about social status and does the beautiful "get naked" speech. Satsuki is a model daughter carrying alone the weight of her dead's father honor since her sister flew/went full rebel. Fuck, there might actually be a reason for all that nudity... Would it be possible that clothes in KlK are the mask we put on/the part we're playing in our societies? Would it be possible that "get naked" doesn't mean "get naked" but "drop the mask"? Damn, that would be metaphors, not sure there's room for this in a dumb show like Kill la Kill... right? That was definitely too dumb to have that kind of stuff indeed. Just forget about it :p So yeah, a bit late to say "but's it's totally not what I'm talking about", especially when you were the one putting no effort in your answers in the first place. Zefyris said: Yes, that's right. it's a wedding dress. You actually had to precise it just to be sure that I remember that fact. Why? Because well, if you don't say that it is a wedding dress, peoples are clearly not going to guess while seeing that People don't exactly have to "see" it's a wedding dress, since the show tells them. It's also not the only time the show uses a wedding dress in it's symbolism. |
DeathkoDec 11, 2015 8:07 AM
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AzureDaora said: Fanservice in serious anime make me cringe and make my head hurt most of the time, especially sexual fanservice ones. Like, Btooom and Mirai Nikki, really? Future Diary doesn't have a lot of fanservice and isn't very serious anyway. There plenty of comic moments. But BTOOOM! is utter crap. The sexualized rape as uuugh. |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
flannan said: Zefyris said: In other words, even with acknowledging what you said about the metaphor used in KLK, ther eis still no justification for the over the top fanservice. That would justify part of the fanservice, but a small part of it, not that extreme outfits for satsuki, not those moves the outfit does when it power up, not the camera angles, not the embarrassing postures, not the unnecessary sexual innuendo, and so on. Well, going over the top is something one can expect from people who did Tengen Toppa Gurenn Lagann. exactly, that's the type of things that studio does. There is no critic behind this. Some peoples will like, some will not, but there's no reason to try to justify that over the top fanservice by saying it's justified in the story, it's not. Nudity has a meaning, but that over the top fanservice has not. @Clebardman : wait. So you mean that comment I made without being serious with a ":p" at the end to show it started an argument, whereas when I'm seriously saying that KLK fanservice isn't for any other purpose than fanservice itself, it didn't start anything? Then we're not talking about the same thing. While I honestly don't think KLK is smart enough to be called "deep" or anything, and that therefore I used "shallow" (which I retracted after merryfistmas' post as well), for me the existence or not of that metaphor is of little importance. That's why in my previous posts I said maybe it's there maybe it isn't. Why didn't I care about it? Because I was talking about the fanservice. And that, as I said above, that fanservice cannot be justified EVEN by that metaphor. And when I was rejecting the metaphor, I was rejecting it as shallow mainly because the reason used to justify fanservice WAS shallow (as in, it doesn't even justify most of it to begin with). Anyway, MAL users can be weird sometimes. I was clearly focusing on the fanservice part and brushing off the metaphor as no valid because it wasn't justifying it. I never thought a half joking comment was the heart of the discussion rather than the part I was serious~. I mean, that's the topic to begin with. Fanservice. And my first post on kill la killl in that thread was clearly focusing on fanservice as well before that half joking answer to your post. In other words, I was talking about fan service in the whole argument, not about simple nudity in the show. If you look back at my posts, you'll see I'm always writing "fan service". Wasn't that clear enough? :/ |
ZefyrisDec 11, 2015 8:05 AM
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Zefyris said: I realized I had glazed over that after posting, but didn't have time. So why is the extreme nudity/fan service necessary? This is a stylistic preferrence, so not really an argument based on metaphors, but because the rest of the show is so over the top, it would feel out of place if the fan service wasn't turned up to an 11 as well. I'm not really into fan-service in general, but I do appreciate stylized fan-service just as I like stylized violence. You may not have liked it, but I enjoyed both the ridiculous costumes and what they represented. I'm not trying to deny that KLK has ridiculous fan service, but that does not devalue the theme it's exploring. Something can be fan service and serve as a metaphor for it's themes. And this may be personal, but I really didn't find anything in KLK particularly sexy. It's not drawn erotically even though it's camera angels give ous several panty shots, and although I loved the character design, it's style isn't really something I'd consider fappable or even arousing. In addition to this, KLK makes fun of various tropes by blowing them out of proportion. I've stated this before, but I don't want to dig through the forums. The overpowered high school council(Toradoa!), the undue importance given to school clubs (K-ON!), are parodied by constructing the premise out of them. The high school council is a fascist dictatorship, clubs are directly tied to your quality of life. It does the same thing with the "female character wearing skimpy clothing in an inappropriate setting" trope, by blowing it out of proportion. I believe this is the biggest justification for it, and I actually found it more funny than arousing. I realize that this is by the same people who made Gurren Lagann, which has Yoko, but Imaishi, the director, also had a pretty big role in FLCL and NGE, the former is often called incomprehensible nonsense by people who don't make an effort to understand the purpose of anything that happens, and the latter is written off as pretentious by the same people. Nakashima, it's writer, also stated that they used clothing as a symbol because he is against the militaristic nature of the Japanese school system, including the uniforms (which are based off of military uniforms), so it's also a criticism of the Japanese school system (and fascism), but that's getting off topic. Back on topic, I'm not denying KLKs fan-service, nor that it could have explored it's themes without it, but I don't get the idea that something has to be a symbol or fan-service. It can still be a means of base titillation and still serve a higher purpose. I brought up Nakashima to show why clothing specifically was used as a symbol. I pointed out that Junketsu was a wedding dress simply because you might have forgotten and it was relevant to the point a was making, so I wanted to establish that just in case, and to be fair, it's not like it looks like a wedding dress per-transformation either. EDIT: Okay, you're saying that non sexualized nudity could have been used rather than fan-service. I disagree on the grounds that it would have clashed with KLK stylistically. Could the show really have handled in of it's themes in a completely serious manner given how ridiculous the whole thing its? But you're right that a lot of it comes down to personal preference, I loved it, some people thought it was ass. |
merryfistmasDec 11, 2015 10:29 AM
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TheBrainintheJar said: AzureDaora said: Fanservice in serious anime make me cringe and make my head hurt most of the time, especially sexual fanservice ones. Like, Btooom and Mirai Nikki, really? Future Diary doesn't have a lot of fanservice and isn't very serious anyway. There plenty of comic moments. But BTOOOM! is utter crap. The sexualized rape as uuugh. Miari Nikki shows Yuno's bouncing boobs and at one point Yukki falls and pulls a girls pants down, and it gives us a close up of her panties. These moments aren't common, but they exist. I don't really mind the former given that they're at a water part (and of course Yuno's boobs) but the latter is totally unnecessary. But yes, in general, Mirai Nikki is pretty light on it. |
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| Must have ...ahem |
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| Turning the fanservice to something over the top because the rest is like that as well? That sounds logical in a way indeed, but gainax have done very over the top action before without going that haywire with the fanservice (although it's not like the fan service wasn't already here before, yes). More than anything, I think that the current Gainax staff just like to go over the top with everything they do. For some, that could be a risky gamble worth praises, especially since so many studios nowadays are completely avoiding taking any risk. Doing anime original is already a risk, and going over the top could be considering risking even more. I don't know how much it sold , if it was a success or not, don't remember. But it would have probably sold far less with jut over the top action and no fanservice, that's quite sure. Anyway, that's for some peoples. For other,s including me, that over the top is just cringe worthy at best, and in case of fan service, it's losing any charm it could have had with something less extreme. Could it have been made without that over the top fan service while still keeping the rest ? Yes, it could have been. There is, technically, nothing stopping this. And personally, I would have liked far more the whole series that way. Quite in the contrary, the contrast between over the top scenes and a nudity being presented as pure (especially in case when you want to associate that nudity with an analogy like "being yourself", "dropping the mask", in other words, we could say it's being your pure self) would have reinforced the whole image behind that metaphor, leaving a far stronger impression of it. I don't think the idea of "being yourself" or "dropping the mask" and so on should be associated to "being lewd". It's supposed to be associated to "being naked". Same goes with the message against the school uniform in japanese school. It's against the "militarisation", not for the sake of having high school girls having the right to wear lewder things. As such, if we're only talking of the general idea behind KLK's concept, I believe that over the top fan service actually harmed it. It probably helped the sales. It probably pleased its fans. Well, that's fan service for you. But for me, that's a very disappointing choice. The idea of it mocking a trope rather than the metaphor on the nudity is interesting. (btw your examples were a bit weird, why toradora and k on? powerful seitokai would go to things like medaka box, and there's far worse on the club part than K On?). The problem is, in that case, that's a different objective achieved here, but it actually harms the first one we talked about. Especially, if we want junkestu to represent what it's supposed to represent as wedding dress, having that kind of design for it wasn't a reasonable idea at all. If they wanted to have both that metaphor AND poke fun at several overused tropes in anime,then I'm afraid that some of their doings interfered with some others goals, and overall it's just dropping the meaning and value of each of them like that. merryfistmas said: Back on topic, I'm not denying KLKs fan-service, nor that it could have explored it's themes without it, but I don't get the idea that something has to be a symbol or fan-service. It can still be a means of base titillation and still serve a higher purpose. I brought up Nakashima to show why clothing specifically was used as a symbol. I pointed out that Junketsu was a wedding dress simply because you might have forgotten and it was relevant to the point a was making, so I wanted to establish that just in case, and to be fair, it's not like it looks like a wedding dress per-transformation either. EDIT: Okay, you're saying that non sexualized nudity could have been used rather than fan-service. I disagree on the grounds that it would have clashed with KLK stylistically. Could the show really have handled in of it's themes in a completely serious manner given how ridiculous the whole thing its? But you're right that a lot of it comes down to personal preference, I loved it, some people thought it was ass. It's not that it has to be fanservice or a symbol, but rather in the contrary that it doesn't have to be both to work, and especially when the fanservice is harming the symbol, it's difficult to say that the fanservice is welcome. Here, the whole idea of a wedding dress called "junketsu" (=purity/chastity) is reduced to its "name" rather than its visual (in a show that is trying to be very visual in what it's talking about, to the point that even the characters names are written in big red letters rather than just said), having a very impure/unchaste appearance, and associating too much nudity with lewdness rather than linking it more with being oneself. For me, no matter how you look at it, this isn't compatible. So to your last question, yes I believe that it was doable without the heavy fanservice, and that it wouldn't have clashed with the rest, quite the contrary. For me as I said above, the over the top fanservice is actually clashing with the ideas behind the setting/story, so I don't see how removing it or at the very least greatly toning it down would have harmed it and clashed more. |
ZefyrisDec 11, 2015 12:04 PM
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That sounds logical in a way indeed, but gainax have done very over the top action before without going that haywire with the fanservice (although it's not like the fan service wasn't already here before, yes). They've done over the top fan-service since Gunbuster. It's not exactly new. And as merryfistmas pointed out, it's not like the art style is fappable. Cartoony proportions, no titties, etc. If there's over-the-top fanservice in KlK, it's not Senketsu/Junketsu but the huge amount of manservice (with titties this time), but for some reasons nobody complains about that. I don't understand why people hate on KlK's fanservice when we had shit like Elfen Lied in the last 15 years. it's not like Ryuuko spends her episodes taking bathes with Satsuki, peeing herself and rubbing her boobs against people. And you told it yourself, they're doing anime originals, in a period dominated by Steins;Gate, CG and SAO... Gotta sell some DVDs to the 13-18 yo audience too, and we know why those people are watching Fairy Tail. |
DeathkoDec 11, 2015 12:38 PM
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| Meh Goes back reading Kill la KIll |
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| It can be used cleverly, but it almost never is, so I'm not fond of it outside ecchi series. |
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| give me more tits and ass please more more more more |
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Thedudeist said: i always thought that the beach scenes were like a big break for the cast, a day off from fighting space monsters or demons or whatever..i never realized it was fanservice.. It's both. The cast does need its breaks from the action (to resolve whatever problems were put off), the viewers need their breaks from the action (to better appreciate the dramatic stuff that is going to happen later), and the producers need their fanservice (to better sell whatever they plan to sell). There might be some other benefits I've missed here. |
| don't give a shit, after all they're not real |
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| If the show utilizes it in a unique and intelligent way I absolutely welcome it. If it's used sparingly I can either be indifferent to it or enjoy it. However, when the show or film uses the fanservice gimmick as a crutch like a number of shows nowadays, then it can fuck right off. |
Take care of yourself |
| I'm a fan if it is pulled off well. It shouldn't get out of hand unless it's a key part of the show like Highschool of the Dead. |
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| I don't care about it unless it's just wasting time and taking away from the story. I found the Hot Spring episode of Outlaw Star hilarious. |
| I don't think it's necessary to drive the plot further. |
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| If its not overdone I don't mind but ecchi focused shows are complete trash. Why not just watch hentai then? |
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