| The most recent School Days thread made me realize a problem that's prevalent in anime and manga discussion boards, and that is misunderstanding that unlikable characters equate to them being badly written. Now this is (from what I've observed) actually much more acceptable when it comes to Western entertainment. When it comes to Western shows/movies people/fans are a lot more willing to accept, and appreciate protagonists with questionable moral standards; characters like Walter White or Hannibal Lecter. People accept, and acknowledge that character imperfections and strengths are all a part of characterization. Now when it comes to anime and manga, things change. Now I am not saying that this happens all of the time, but from what I've read on MAL it seems to be a part of a the majority. People Anime fans equating unlikable traits with bad writing. Now I'm going to bring back Makoto into this. What we know of Makoto is: 1. Promiscuous 2. Dishonest 3. Irresponsible But he's also 4. Self-aware 5. Brave enough to admit his faults 6. Brave enough to change himself for the better Makoto acted upon many decisions that us viewers deem as despicable, but by no means that defines him as a terrible character. These are all traits that many of us in the real world fall victim to. Many people fall victim to lust, many are dishonest, and many of us make decisions that we are not proud of. His decisions in the show were consistent with his traits. A character that employs several archetypes is neither bland or one dimensional, he's a complex character. Now I'm not saying you should force yourself to like characters, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that you should try your hardest to refrain from dismissing characters or shows because of unlikable traits. Something that's also quite frequent in the Yahari forums. Despite characters acting consistently people are still willing to call them forced or badly written because the conflicts they involve themselves into are seen (by us the viewers) idiotic and childish, but when we take their perspectives and character imperfections into consideration, that's clearly not the case. In fact they end up being quite reasonable. |
NudeBearApr 30, 2015 3:57 PM
| I usually notice people making these claims are doing it based on how they self-insert into that character's situation. "I wouldn't cheat on a cute girl." "I wouldn't turn a blind eye to abuse." "I would never give into bribery." That's the mindset I normally see, particularly in the worst character ever thread. I do everything in my power to better understand a character and his/her role in the big picture before I resort to laying down the gauntlet of being a bad character. A character's moral values should never be a criteria, as some of the most devilish can be some of the best. There's a character in a movie that is 100x worse than Makoto and he is an extremely cunning, manipulative, and silver tongued man. He uses gossip and his seductive charms to ruin women's lives and he does a damn fine job at it. Not to mention that poorly written =/= bad characters. The girls in Infinite Stratos are far from innovative or well thought out, but I still love their bodies personalities despite. |
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Ratohnhaketon said: I usually notice people making these claims are doing it based on how they self-insert into that character's situation. "I wouldn't cheat on a cute girl." "I wouldn't turn a blind eye to abuse." "I would never give into bribery." That's the mindset I normally see, particularly in the worst character ever thread. A character's moral values should never be a criteria, as some of the most devilish can be some of the best. There's a character in a movie that is 100x worse than Makoto and he is an extremely cunning, manipulative, and silver tongued man. He uses gossip and his seductive charms to ruin women's lives and he does a damn fine job at it. Exactly. I clearly don't condone or encourage any sort of cannibalism, murder, mutilation, or heavy manipulation but that does not stop me from realizing and acknowledging how great of a character Hannibal (from the TV series) is. |
| Wow nice thread. I agree completely. |
Where the fuck did Monday go? |
| How many threads about or inspired by Makoto are we going to have? Yes, there is a difference, this should be clear. But people react negatively to things like this because either: -Their expectations on the character are crushed (which is an entirely different issue) -Can't get over that gut reaction and enjoy the perspective that the show brings Both are valid emotional answers, and part of the inherent risk at playing a main character to appear unlikeable. |
| So then what do you make of Death Note? |
 |
| As an example, for me Light from death note is a well written character, and I like the way I hate him. L wasn't well written as kira, but I like him more(L without kira is nothing though). People usually don't know that a MC can be dishonest, evil, or even a villain... After seeing this thread I'll put school days on my ptw list. Good thread. |
Red_Keys said: So then what do you make of Death Note? I enjoyed Light's story of how his self-righteousness transforms him into an evil, conflicted and provocative character. I can see why people might dislike him, but he's a well written character. I haven't watched it in over 6 years, so I might give it another a take. So what's the point you want to make, keys? |
| I agree but I still think Makoto sucks.(as a person) |
 |
badwolf45f said: I agree but I still think Makoto sucks.(as a person) ^ |
| Personally, my confliction with School Days is not due to Makoto's character but rather; implausible events where rational characters are defied of all their defining traits for the sake of "DORAMA" and "PLOT TWESTS" |
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Red_Keys said: So then what do you make of Death Note? Kira did nothing wrong. |
| Nice thread, i guess the problem is that people think "I don't like the character hence is a bad character". Let's use Shinji as an example: I don't like him, but he is a good characterfor the reason that he isn't badass, like any other 14 yo put in that situation, he has a somewhat believable character that works very well in the situations he is forced to be. But always people go "hurr durr Shonjo iz a pussy so bed chracter kek lol". |
| Yes there is. |
| Good analysis and good point. But tbh I believe that all the people are not bland and generic characters but in anime, maybe thats a different case. |
| The world shall know the truth soon. |
Lancehot said: There was no need to start a journey though, he was an unlikable twat to begin with. He was never "normal".To go with your examples. Walter White works because he doesn't start as an evil bastard. He starts as a put upon everyman whose life is going to shit & then this opportunity falls into his lap that he's not wanting to take advantage of but gradually his moral compass is skewed. Hannibal Lecter isn't the main protagonist in his films. In Silence of the Lambs & Hannibal it's Clarice Starling (Hannibal is weaker for giving him a more prominent role, imo) & in Manhunt/Red Dragon it's Will Graham. The problem with Makoto is that there's no real journey leading him down the road to being a bastard. He starts out as a normal male lead, finds the girl he likes is kinda boring, & suddenly it's threesomes & pregnancy scares & getting his head cut off. No attempt is made to make him sympathetic or likeable before he takes a turn for the douche. I have the similar problem with him that I do with the main guy from White Album. In that, I think I'm supposed to feel it's hard for him because he can't get in contact with his gf & there's all these other stresses in his life & all these girls boo hoo. But all I thought was "get a fucking answerphone you massive, self-pitying twat." Also, not all fictional characters have to have a "downfall" from good to evil to be noteworthy. Some can be completely vile douchebags to begin with. They just have to be interesting. The Wolf of Wall Street for example. He starts as a tard and ends as a tard, yet the audience can't help but cheer for his antics. |
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| I have my full thoughts here, but essentially, take a character that you hate. Is it because it's a horrible character, or is it because if they were real, the character would be a horrible person? Of course, there is overlap, so a horrible character can also be a horrible person, but as far as intention goes, yes, there's a difference. It comes down to the intention behind a character's portrayal and their role in the plot. In other words, do these horrible characters have a reason for being horrible, or is it just to create grief and suffering for both the cast and the viewers? |
| Believe it or not, Naruto is a better written character than Makoto. |
 |
sullynathan said: Believe it or not, Naruto is a better written character than Makoto. Prove it. |
PoeticJustice said: sullynathan said: Believe it or not, Naruto is a better written character than Makoto. Prove it. Alright give me a minute |
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PoeticJustice said: sullynathan said: Believe it or not, Naruto is a better written character than Makoto. Prove it. Naruto has great character development and actually accomplishes his goals, Makoto does not and he's incredibly naive. Naruto grew with the story, he evolved. Certain things like the death of Jiraiya affected him deeply and made him mature as a human being. Makoto doesn't mature, he sleeps with every woman he comes across and these ho's gave up the pussy too easily. Even the one that was an upper classmen. He never even though about pregnancy or STD's until it was too late. Naruto got more powerful as the story went on and became one of the most powerful characters in his Verse. Makoto became less physically active yo the point that he stood there and let a little girl stab him. Thus I have proven than Naruto is a better character than Makoto. |
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sullynathan said: PoeticJustice said: Prove it. Naruto has great character development and actually accomplishes his goals, Makoto does not and he's incredibly naive. Naruto grew with the story, he evolved. Certain things like the death of Jiraiya affected him deeply and made him mature as a human being. Makoto doesn't mature, he sleeps with every woman he comes across and these ho's gave up the pussy too easily. Even the one that was an upper classmen. He never even though about pregnancy or STD's until it was too late. Naruto got more powerful as the story went on and became one of the most powerful characters in his Verse. Makoto became less physically active yo the point that he stood there and let a little girl stab him. Thus I have proven than Naruto is a better character than Makoto.  |
PoeticJustice said: sullynathan said: Naruto has great character development and actually accomplishes his goals, Makoto does not and he's incredibly naive. Naruto grew with the story, he evolved. Certain things like the death of Jiraiya affected him deeply and made him mature as a human being. Makoto doesn't mature, he sleeps with every woman he comes across and these ho's gave up the pussy too easily. Even the one that was an upper classmen. He never even though about pregnancy or STD's until it was too late. Naruto got more powerful as the story went on and became one of the most powerful characters in his Verse. Makoto became less physically active yo the point that he stood there and let a little girl stab him. Thus I have proven than Naruto is a better character than Makoto. Thank you for agreeing with me. |
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| To me the only badly written character is one that is underutilized. You find these usually in shows with large casts where too many throwaway characters are introduced and then largely forgotten and not explored. Even unlikable characters sometimes serve the story in entertaining ways. That character can develop and change into a better person, or they can be killed off and you can have a laugh. |
| "Laws exist only for those who cannot live without clinging onto them." -Souske Aizen "Bleach"  |
Kruszer said: To me the only badly written character is one that is underutilized. You find these usually in shows with large casts where too many characters are introduced and then largely forgotten and not explored. Even unlikable characters sometimes serve the story in entertaining ways. That character can develop and change into a better person, or they can be killed off and you can have a laugh. That's more of a waste of a character rather than a bad one though, wouldn't it? I suppose if you were talking about the writing you could call the character bad, but this makes me think of the personality-less self-insert main character. You could criticize the writing all day, but they're not really a bad character since there's no character there no begin with. |
| So whats the difference then? |
| Anime fans hate Makoto because he got laid. |
| Try telling that to your average fan of...anything. I'm on this forum in the first place because of Mass Effect (long story), you ever been on the Bioware forums and seen how many people shit on Ashley Williams? Who refused to accept she was a well-written character just because they thought she was racist? This phenomenon is too common. |
| Anyone who doesn't hate anime hasn't watched enough anime. - Anonymous |
TheFilthyCasual said: Try telling that to your average fan of...anything. I'm on this forum in the first place because of Mass Effect (long story), you ever been on the Bioware forums and seen how many people shit on Ashley Williams? Who refused to accept she was a well-written character just because they thought she was racist? This phenomenon is too common. Bro BSN is (was? )cancer. The fanbase hates anything that Bioware does. You can't win with them. I never disliked Ashley. |
|
NudeBear said: The most recent School Days thread made me realize a problem that's prevalent in anime and manga discussion boards, and that is misunderstanding that unlikable characters equate to them being badly written. Now this is (from what I've observed) actually much more acceptable when it comes to Western entertainment. When it comes to Western shows/movies people/fans are a lot more willing to accept, and appreciate protagonists with questionable moral standards; characters like Walter White or Hannibal Lecter. People accept, and acknowledge that character imperfections and strengths are all a part of characterization. Now when it comes to anime and manga, things change. Now I am not saying that this happens all of the time, but from what I've read on MAL it seems to be a part of a the majority. People Anime fans equating unlikable traits with bad writing. Now I'm going to bring back Makoto into this. What we know of Makoto is: 1. Promiscuous 2. Dishonest 3. Irresponsible But he's also 4. Self-aware 5. Brave enough to admit his faults 6. Brave enough to change himself for the better Makoto acted upon many decisions that us viewers deem as despicable, but by no means that defines him as a terrible character. These are all traits that many of us in the real world fall victim to. Many people fall victim to lust, many are dishonest, and many of us make decisions that we are not proud of. His decisions in the show were consistent with his traits. A character that employs several archetypes is neither bland or one dimensional, he's a complex character. Now I'm not saying you should force yourself to like characters, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that you should try your hardest to refrain from dismissing characters or shows because of unlikable traits. Something that's also quite frequent in the Yahari forums. Despite characters acting consistently people are still willing to call them forced or badly written because the conflicts they involve themselves into are seen (by us the viewers) idiotic and childish, but when we take their perspectives and character imperfections into consideration, that's clearly not the case. In fact they end up being quite reasonable. +1 |
   I envy your delusion; I wish I could live in it  |
| well , then, madara (from naruto) or antagonist character like that (zeref, hendriksen, takasugi, etc.) is bad writing or unlikable? or both? |
 "If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
sullynathan said: No actually it's bipolar. It both unconditionally loves and irrationally hates everything Bioware does.They always hate what they shouldn't, but also love what they shouldn't.TheFilthyCasual said: Try telling that to your average fan of...anything. I'm on this forum in the first place because of Mass Effect (long story), you ever been on the Bioware forums and seen how many people shit on Ashley Williams? Who refused to accept she was a well-written character just because they thought she was racist? This phenomenon is too common. Bro BSN is (was? )cancer. The fanbase hates anything that Bioware does. You can't win with them. I never disliked Ashley. |
| Anyone who doesn't hate anime hasn't watched enough anime. - Anonymous |
Syndiciate said: Yes there is. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
| I initially hated Shinji from EVA at first, but after some time I realize that he is a well made character. |
TheFilthyCasual said: sullynathan said: No actually it's bipolar. It both unconditionally loves and irrationally hates everything Bioware does.They always hate what they shouldn't, but also love what they shouldn't.Bro BSN is (was? )cancer. The fanbase hates anything that Bioware does. You can't win with them. I never disliked Ashley. True, I haven't played a Bioware game in years but the casual forum side doesn't like Inquisition either. Plus people there get a hard on for CDProjektRED and Obsidian at times. |
|
| Makoto is poorly developed character imo. Sekai and Kotonoha roles is stronger throughout the whole series to the point that the whole story is actually about the conflict between those two. |
| The most important things in life is the people that you care about |
 . |
| I'd go with emobubbles, but someone else already had it, damn bastard. |
| Well i realized this a long time ago. I found myself hate Shinji Ikari (And i still dislike him) but i also aware that he is one of the most well-written character i ever know. |
 |
BlueKite said: I initially hated Shinji from EVA at first, but after some time I realize that he is a well made character. Indeed. I feel he is a character who is meant to be disliked for being overly weak; after all he is a 14-yr old kid with daddy AND mommy issues. When the creators succeed in making you dislike a character according to plan, it can't be bad right? |
| Some people want the characters to do what they want them to do but that would be another kind of fanservice. A properly written character also has flaws and make you rage if necessary. Some people don't understand this. Excellent thread, Nudebear. |
sullynathan said: Naruto has great character development and actually accomplishes his goals, Makoto does not and he's incredibly naive. Makoto wants to be a popular guy with the girls, he accomplished that goal in 12 episodes. sullynathan said: Naruto grew with the story, he evolved. Certain things like the death of Jiraiya affected him deeply and made him mature as a human being. Makoto grew with the story. The girl with a crush on during middle school affected him deeply and ended up sleeping with during the school festival made him confident as a human being. sullynathan said: Makoto doesn't mature, he sleeps with every woman he comes across and these ho's gave up the pussy too easily. Even the one that was an upper classmen. He never even though about pregnancy or STD's until it was too late. Compared to how he was in the beginning of the anime where he doesn't have the balls to ask out the girl he likes, and ends up being able to manipulate a girl into joining a 4 some, that is some maturity. sullynathan said: Naruto got more powerful as the story went on and became one of the most powerful characters in his Verse. Typical shounen 200+ episode series nothing impressive. sullynathan said: Makoto became less physically active yo the point that he stood there and let a little girl stab him. He got stabbed unexpectedly from the back, sadly not everyone can run when they have a knife wound that reached their internal organs sullynathan said: Thus I have proven than Naruto is a better character than Makoto. All that you have proved is that Naruto is a more likable character than Makoto, even though he is a really typical shounen MC. |
nsa23x said: BlueKite said: I initially hated Shinji from EVA at first, but after some time I realize that he is a well made character. Indeed. I feel he is a character who is meant to be disliked for being overly weak; after all he is a 14-yr old kid with daddy AND mommy issues. When the creators succeed in making you dislike a character according to plan, it can't be bad right? Strangely, I noticed there has been an influx of weak MCs after Evangelion. |
Shocked said: I have my full thoughts here, but essentially, take a character that you hate. Is it because it's a horrible character, or is it because if they were real, the character would be a horrible person? Of course, there is overlap, so a horrible character can also be a horrible person, but as far as intention goes, yes, there's a difference. It comes down to the intention behind a character's portrayal and their role in the plot. In other words, do these horrible characters have a reason for being horrible, or is it just to create grief and suffering for both the cast and the viewers? Wow, I loved your blog post. You did a way better job than I did. Feel like replacing it with the OP. azzuRe said: Makoto is poorly developed character imo. Sekai and Kotonoha roles is stronger throughout the whole series to the point that the whole story is actually about the conflict between those two. Makoto's conflict was a battle between his lust, and love. Part of the whole reason for his self-loathing was because he hated himself for choosing his lust over Kotonoha. He knew he was being a shitty person. He wanted to stop, but he also couldn't and didn't want to at the same time. Near the end, when he embraces Kotonoha, he came to terms with his own shitty decisions and decided to change his way. He began to look at Kotonoha as person, not an object to fulfill his lust and desires. He was preparing to change himself into a better person. Makoto was a shitty person because his writers intended him to be so. His shittyness was an influence to all major plot points in the show. Neglecting Kotonoha contributed to her mental breakdown, his mistreatment of Sekai revealed her darkest side, and tempted her to act upon it. In School Days, Makoto served the purpose his writers intended him to serve. More people seem to be confusing "development into a despicable person" with "poor development." What happened in the show was anything but that. Also, this thread is not about Makoto. Sure it was inspired by him, and I only brought him in to the topic in order exemplify my poorly written point. Again, he is anything but poorly developed. It's more like his character went towards a direction you weren't comfortable with, and that's the point I'm trying to express here. We should stop confusing and projecting our preferences when it comes to literary analysis. |
NudeBearMay 1, 2015 12:07 AM
NicoIsPathetic said: In a hypocritical note, people constantly praise sociopathic characters from other shows yet have the nerve to go all out on Makoto because her oppress ur womyns XD A bit of a derailment, but I also find this weird. In the other SD thread I pointed out that whenever (well most of the time) someone expresses their distaste for School Days, the dislike is always directed towards Makoto.. "Makoto is an ass" "Makoto is cheater. Scumbag." ...when at the same time they either completely forget about the two psychopathic heroines or they actually encouraged Kotonoha's and Sekai's behavior. For example: "He got what he deserved. Loved the ending." That's what I meant when I mentioned white knight culture. We (anime fans) are more willing to forgive and fall in love with female characters that if we were to put them out in real life, they'd be shunned and hated by us. I mean the majority of this fanbase despises Makoto, but at the same time characters like Yuno Gasai are popular as fuck. It really is weird how shit works. |
sullynathan said: Thus I have proven than Naruto is a better character than Makoto. So to you Goku is a well-written character? At least you should have picked that main character from Gurren Lagunn. NicoIsPathetic said: On a hypocritical note, people constantly praise sociopathic characters from other shows yet have the nerve to go all out on Makoto because her oppress ur womyns XD and Sturgeon's Law applies to every anime written past 1999 Agreed. |
| No way to recall What it was that you had said to me Like I care at all But it was so loud And you sure could yell You took a stand on every little thing And it was so loud |
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