Puella Magi Madoka Magica
| (sorry for the long post.) I consider neither KlK nor Utena to be magical girl. Utena is more commonly defined as surrealist/absurdist fantasy, while KlK is a straight shounen-esque parody and satire. Just because both adopt the transformation sequence (which, by the way, is not a magical girl-exclusive trope) doesn't mean that they're suddenly magical girl anime. I guess I can see where you would think otherwise, but to me, they're not. But we'll agree to disagree here since it's not important either way. (Also don't use the "it's not up to you to define the genre blah blah" argument again because it's ridiculous - none of this is well-defined, we all have our own interpretations of what's what. I'm giving you my interpretation. I'm not claiming my opinions as fact here, but I will use my opinions to back up my argument as my entire analysis is informed by them, just as it is with you and everyone else when we analyze anime.) I also gotta disagree that satirizing the transformation sequence itself has much value. What KlK and Utena do with that trope is use it to reinforce some of their other themes, like the struggle of adolescence, the promotion of a healthy body image, etc. The transformation sequence itself isn't satirized at all, really. It's just used as a vehicle for thematic development. Let me give an example of what I consider to be meaningful deconstruction, since we brought up Utena. Gender identity is typically defined and reinforced by traditional gender roles. So when I say I identify as a man, the societal implication isn't just that I have the requisite sexual organs, it's also that I like taking charge and being a dominant and protective figure (i.e. a "prince" - and there's much more, but I'm already rambling). Conversely, if someone were to identify as a woman, then the societal implication is that they identify as a "bride". Revolutionary Girl Utena deconstructs this notion of gender identity by tearing apart and dismissing these gender roles to the point where gender identity is no longer defined by them (e.g. "prince" and "bride" can be either male or female). RGU then reconstructs gender identity as self-defined in a sense; if a girl wants to be a prince, or if a boy wants to be a bride, then so be it. The show strives to remove the masculine connotation of "prince" and the feminine connotation of "bride" (actually, the show goes a bit further and criticizes on some levels the very notion of wanting to be a bride, and tries to promote the sense of individuality and personal control of being a prince, but that's not really relevant here). That was a really simple summary of Utena's deconstructionist tendencies, but one of the reasons I find such deconstruction meaningful is because it carries far more weight in real life. Gender identity is a legitimate issue and having it deconstructed provides some incredibly interesting food for thought with relevancy to our personal lives. Back to Madoka - the reason I don't think Madoka's deconstruction is particularly valuable is because many of the tropes that Madoka was deconstructing weren't that important. For example, you mentioned that Madoka played with the "power of emotions" trope, but I question why I should care about this? I mean, it's cool that they decided to play with the trope, but I don't see the trope itself as particularly interesting or deep. The subversion itself was interesting in a sort of dystopian way, but offered very little in the way of a meaningful message. Also if the message is "the easy way is never the right way" then I find that to be an incredibly shallow and naive one, so I hope that's not what PMMM was trying to say. Also I feel like all this talk about deconstruction diverted attention from the two much bigger reasons I actually "dislike" this anime (I don't dislike it, I just don't particularly care for it). Mediocre character development and naive thematic development ("if you do the right thing and/or have hope then you lose lol!!1!") made me lose interest pretty quickly. I realize the ending tried to mitigate this, but it would've been nice if they didn't need to rely on a huge deus ex machina to provide thematic balance. As far as the deconstruction goes, though, I never said it was a bad thing. I just said that I didn't think it contributed anything meaningful to the anime. It's just there and helps create an interesting plot, but nothing more. |
PonPonPonOct 21, 2014 8:26 PM
| Bunch of silly, awkward-faced lolis running around throwing magic spells at each other? Nah, I'll pass. |
    looket all them demons oh boy am i scared i better run ● ● ● |
| Its good, but not great. I gave the series a 7/10 meaning I actually really enjoyed it though I feel this anime gets more hype than it deserves. |
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PonPonPon said: lots of words Going by your own logic, I wouldn't consider Utena a meaningful deconstruction of gender roles: We may not have reached complete gender equality yet, but most people acknowledge the idea and we even have laws against sexist behaviour. What does Utena add to a concept that has been obvious for quite some time? I could argue that the show is more of a deconstruction of gender roles in fiction, and that its message isn't particularly interesting or relevant in real life. I'm far from having a complete understanding of Utena, but the parts that relate to the reversal of gender role felt really banal and unnecessary (since I could predict where the show was going by just watching the opening flashback in the first episode). What I want to say is: it's really easy to dismiss the value of each other's opinions, especially when we seem to have very different points of view. I may also add that I'm not defending Madoka in particular, but I just disagreed with your initial paragraph on deconstructions. |
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| Who is dismissing whose opinions? rofl, this thread is about what people dislike about Madoka. I stated my reasons and you were the one that responded to me. I never once called you out for liking Madoka nor did I dismiss your opinions as inferior to mine. The bulk of this discussion was centered around my views on genre deconstruction and I gave them. You then proceeded to tell me that you have a different opinion and then you told me that we shouldn't dismiss each others opinions. Solid. also re: Utena, it's important to recognize that it was made in the mid-late 90s and we are far more cognizant of gender roles than we were back then, largely because of the internet. The issues are far less pressing than before but they are still certainly very relevant in today's society, unless you believe that gender roles have disappeared (they haven't). Also, Utena is about a lot more than gender roles (it is pretty much the most meta anime I've ever seen, it tackles everything), but I guess that is neither here nor there. |
PonPonPonOct 25, 2014 5:52 AM
| How Japan Media Arts Festival works? Who selects the winner? Who nominates anime? Anyway, having any kind of reward doesn’t make anything objectively good. Madoka has too mediocre character development to be good and the plot is not even surprising once you realize what it is trying to do, which happened to me very quickly. It is not the worst anime on earth, but it is far from being great. |
| "The moment one sits down to think, one becomes all nose, or all forehead, or something horrid. Look at the successful men in any of the learned professions. How perfectly hideous they are! Except, of course, in the Church. But then in the Church they don't think. A bishop keeps on saying at the age of eighty what he was told to say when he was a boy of eighteen, and as a natural consequence he always looks absolutely delightful." |
| How I hate the whole shitty "objectivity" talk. |
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| I dont like it cause the girls look like lolis. |
Illustration said: Em...They are?I dont like it cause the girls look like lolis. |
FakePriest said: Illustration said: Em...They are?I dont like it cause the girls look like lolis. Some might say fourteen is too old to be a loli. The puni plush character designs do make the characters look like eight year olds though.   Even though I know it's the Hidamari Sketch art style, it's still hard for me to believe Madoka could be anywhere near as tall as Usagi. Usagi = 150cm (4'11"). Madoka = 152cm (5'0"). |
| Em...Usagi looks REALLY tall for someone at 150cm, both in manga and anime series. It makes Mamoru look like a 200+cm giant. Madoka feels far more real....in height. |
| I've got to admit I don't know what "loli" means in this kind of discussion. I always thought it was something to do with young girls being presented in sexualized ways - as in Nabokov's *Lolita* - but the characters in *Madoka* just aren't. Does it mean something else? Sometimes I get the impression it's code for "It's about fourteen year old girls, and that's reason enough to despise it or to feel ashamed of enjoying it." But that would just be pathetic. Perhaps there's another meaning? |
| "Burn this sight into your minds. This is what it means to be a magical girl." |
bighandxyz said: >having any kind of reward doesn’t make anything objectively good. Actually, yes it does. What does not matter is your opinion on what is objectively good, however. It is literally the most prestiege award you can get for the field of art, entertainment, animation, and manga in Japan (Closest thing to Oscar award for anime series). That's akin to saying "Oscar winners doesn't make anything objectively good", which is pretty much false as they are the literary that determines the criterias of objectivity for arts. Also Madoka has won just about every single awards in 2011, dozen, something no other series have achieved in this decade. Famous directors and renown critics in fields have openly praised the series. They have presented objectively why this series is good and I feel there is no need to repeat that here. There really isn't much to debate here whether Madoka is objectively good or not, the achievements speaks for itself The fact that Madoka won an award may as well mean that the jury liked it enough to be awarded or many people liked it enough to vote for it, not that it is objectively good. I may change my opinion if I know how exactly it was selected and the reasoning behind this choice convinced me. Try again, this time something different than logical fallacy known as argument form authority. |
Lain666Oct 29, 2014 5:20 AM
| "The moment one sits down to think, one becomes all nose, or all forehead, or something horrid. Look at the successful men in any of the learned professions. How perfectly hideous they are! Except, of course, in the Church. But then in the Church they don't think. A bishop keeps on saying at the age of eighty what he was told to say when he was a boy of eighteen, and as a natural consequence he always looks absolutely delightful." |
| Not objectively good but their opinions matter WAY more than yours. Television Award at the 16th Animation Kobe Awards. Only the Animation Kobe Theme Song Award is chosen by fans' votes in first selection, though the decision is by the committee. Therefore, the tendency of the prize winners is a little different from other prizes by the fan's vote. Grand Prize for animation in the 2011 Japan Media Arts awards.Not by fans. Three Tokyo Anime Awards in the Television Category, Best Director and Best Screenplay.Though there are about ten main judges, total judges are over one hundred people. Various talents participate to judge, such as anime staffs, professors of the universities, producers and chief editors of various magazines including the anime magazines. |
TyrelNov 1, 2014 1:05 PM
| I don't hate the show, but I REALLY hate the witches or w/e the bad guys were called. Couldn't stand how stupid that shit looked. Was an assault on my eye balls and looked entirely out of place, pretty sure I'll never finish it, and I felt the same way with Gankutsuou which I also couldn't take watching because of the art style. I'm sure neither are bad shows, but can't watch for more than like 10 minutes before I just cant stand it anymore. |
| *Cringey anime weeb stuff* |
FakePriest said: But I guess those dont matter because you think otherwise. It could matter if I knew their reasoning and was convinced by it, but, as for now, I’ll present my reasoning. Madoka is a sweet girl who worries about her friend and wants to help them. That’s is all there is to her. Throughout the course of the series she doesn’t change. Does Madoka gain some kind of insight into herself? Nope. At the end she is the same person she was at the beginning. She only can do something useful, because Homura stopped her from making a mistake and becoming a magical girl early and wasting her wish on something stupid like in previous timelins. It was not Madoka’s conscious effort to find out about the situation, which is bad, because if Madoka was trying to figure out what is going on herself, she would not be such a boring and good for nothing character. Madoka was just lucky that Homura stopped her. The problem Madoka obviously has is that she is reckless. She tries to do something, but doesn’t think about consequences. If Madoka had to face dire consequences of her action and learnt from it, we could talk about character development. If she realized that her actions had been reckless and that she was too impulsive when trying to solve the problem, If she realized that she should have gathered information, analyzed the situation, in other words think before doing, it would have been a good character development, but nothing like that ever happens. So we have a heroine who solves the problem with the power of luck. She was simply lucky that Homur’s action allowed her to do something useful for a change. This is a bad writing. Not only doesn’t Madoka do anything interesting throughout most of the series, remaining passive and useless, but also she doesn’t undergo any internal change, which is present in better works like Princess Tutu and especially Utena. Utena is a different person by the end of her story. Hers is truly coming of age story. Whenever Madoka and Utena are compared, it feels to me like someone is comparing a gaunt hackney to a purebred Arabian horse. Also, Madoka cannot be compared to character from literature like, for example, Gwendolen Harleth who has fantastic characterization and undergoes significant character development. Urobuchi was unable to make a decent coming of age story, even though coming of age stories are present in our world for more than hundred years. The director of Utena, on the other hand, clearly knew what he was doing and was drawing from literature that deals with the problem of coming of age, as there are obvious allusions to Herman Hesse's work in Utena. Let’s go to Homura. She cannot be completely credited for Madoka’s success , because it was not Homura’s intention to make Madoka gain insight of the situation and do something sensible about it, she only wanted her to stop from becoming a magical girl. That’s all. As a character Homura is not interesting for most part of the story. In the first 2/3 of the series her role comes down to stopping Madoka from becoming a magical girl and saying something like “Madoka, if you value your life, don’t become a magical girl”, which was only mildly interesting the first time around. That she was trying to protect Madoka was obvious long before it was revealed. So much crap was happening to magical girls that one had to be half-witted not to figure out that Homura is trying to protect Madoka, hence the big revelation is not surprising, one could easily foresee it after third episode. Madoka and Homura are not well-written by any stretch of imagination. You can find characters done better in anime and there are plenty of well-written characters in literature. |
Lain666Oct 30, 2014 5:24 AM
| "The moment one sits down to think, one becomes all nose, or all forehead, or something horrid. Look at the successful men in any of the learned professions. How perfectly hideous they are! Except, of course, in the Church. But then in the Church they don't think. A bishop keeps on saying at the age of eighty what he was told to say when he was a boy of eighteen, and as a natural consequence he always looks absolutely delightful." |
Lain666 said: FakePriest said: But I guess those dont matter because you think otherwise. It could matter if I knew their reasoning and was convinced by it, but, as for now, I’ll present my reasoning. Okay so character flaws, mean a character is bad okay..... I guess only if they were Mary Sues you would of like it more. Not only doesn’t Madoka do anything interesting throughout most of the series, remaining passive and useless A common misconception but she does plenty or at very least tries, its usually Homura that prevents her from doing anything major. Just look at episode 4 to see an example where Homura is not able to stop Madoka from helping, ie the scene where she saves Hitomis and a bunch of peoples lives at the danger of her own with no super powers, a coward or a passive character would of 1. Never been in that situation, ie wouldnt of tried to stop hitomi, 2. Would of either a died with them or run away, this is supported by facts we learn about Madoka in the original timeline and is that the fact she is brave and is a pretty big goddam hero. Also Madoka by the end does change and grows as a person, and its through her experience and knowledge she gathered as well as thanks to Homura she could finally make the wish she most needed to help the most people. As for the whole hence the big revelation is not surprising, one could easily foresee it after third episode its called hindsight, I imagine you didn't actually watch it as it was airing or paid any attention to /a/ or 2ch because I can ensure you very few people saw the twists until the very reveal, or at the very least only had an inkling but that's what is called foreshadowing, the idea that a story should be completely unpredictable is wrong, its a very perilous balance a writer has to maintain enough unpredictability that it isn't generic but not so unpredictable that plot points come out from nowhere and Madoka does this extremely well, its why its for many people a show that gets even better on the rewatch. |
| You mean that episode in which she is eventually rescued by Sayaka? I wonder what Madoka would do if Sayaka didn’t come to save her butt. Besides, I never said that Madoka is a coward, I said she is reckless. Reckless - marked by lack of proper caution : careless of consequences. I also didn’t say that a good character is flawless. I have pointed out how Madoka’s character development could have been done, haven’t I? I have seen it once without knowing what is going to happen. I only know that this show is hyped for some reason and I didn’t know why, I wanted to check it. And it really it was not that difficult to figure it out. It is a straightforward show. I agree that making a build-up is a good thing, but I wouldn’t say the authors of Madoka tried particularly hard to hide the truth from viewers. I have read and seen stories where authors did a better job at hiding the truth and at least tried to mislead viewers. |
Lain666Oct 30, 2014 5:27 AM
| "The moment one sits down to think, one becomes all nose, or all forehead, or something horrid. Look at the successful men in any of the learned professions. How perfectly hideous they are! Except, of course, in the Church. But then in the Church they don't think. A bishop keeps on saying at the age of eighty what he was told to say when he was a boy of eighteen, and as a natural consequence he always looks absolutely delightful." |
Lain666 said: You mean that episode in which she is eventually rescued by Sayaka? I wonder what Madoka would do if Sayaka didn’t come to save her butt. Besides, I never said that Madoka is a coward, I said she is reckless. Reckless - marked by lack of proper caution : careless of consequences. I also didn’t say that a good character is flawless There you go again, pointing out a character flaw, and making that seem a bad thing? Also Madoka has no magic or powers at this point but the important thing is that she still tries to help, and for unmagic civillian handles the situation well, hardly the traits of a passive character(which I would like to add you said she was), so because she is saved from a magical monster which she has no powers to overcome(without making wish, which would be wait for it... reckless)that suddenly makes her a bad character? As for calling Madoka reckless its arguable, as there is a fine line between bravery and recklness/stupidity but once again does not make a bad character. Personally I think Madoka is actually pretty cautious and for her age of 14 pretty wise, she usually only ever attempts to make her wish in situations she sees no other way out of , and its her final wish which she uses her experiences and knowledge to develop. I only know that this show is hyped for some reason and I didn’t know why, I wanted to check it. Well that's a huge problem right, there expectations, I know its hard to go into a show with a completely open mind and without hype but going into a show with this sort of mindset and your 9 out of 10 times are going to end up disappointed UNLESS it happens exactly how YOU would want it to, whether or not the writer had you in particular in mind. As for the foreshadowing it worked for the majority of people and as I said at the time of airing most people didn't get the twists until it happend. |
| This is a scene that could have been used better. As I said, it could have been used to make Madoka face dire consequences of her actions and learn from them. As for what Madoka could have done. Obviously she shouldn’t have gone with Hitomi in the first place and she should have started looking for Homura immediately after noticing witch’s kiss, if she hadn’t had her number. That was the best course of action for her that did not put her life in jeopardy. I wouldn’t say it was cautious or wise for Madoka to follow Hitomi after noticing witch’s kiss. But my point is that I wouldn’t mind she followed Hitomi at all, had this scene played out for example like that. She goes after Hitomi, Hitomi gets killed by witches and Madoka realizes afterwards that following Hitomi was a mistake and that she should have looked for support earlier as she had been useless once witches appeared and it was wiser to look for someone who can do something about them. And after this small amount of self-reflection, she should have been put in a similar situation later and behave differently this time, not in a thoughtless way to show how she developed. But instead we see the main character learning nothing and committing the same mistakes again and later the story hailed as a “great coming of age story.” As for calling her passive. I didn’t write that she never does anything, but Madoka is a passive character. As I said MOST of the time she doesn’t do anything and that is true, for a main character she is a passive heroine, she is a reactionary character that only responds to events, she doesn’t shape the story like for example Princess Tutu or Utena. Sayaka basically steals the show when she turns into a magical girl. |
| "The moment one sits down to think, one becomes all nose, or all forehead, or something horrid. Look at the successful men in any of the learned professions. How perfectly hideous they are! Except, of course, in the Church. But then in the Church they don't think. A bishop keeps on saying at the age of eighty what he was told to say when he was a boy of eighteen, and as a natural consequence he always looks absolutely delightful." |
FakePriest said: So you ignore professionals because you "dont know the basis of their decisions". Well will also ignore all of your "criticism" since it is nothing but "this is how I wanted it to be".Whatever their reasoning may be, it is still better than "this is how I wanted it to be". Mami's death,Sayaka becoming a magical girl and then a witch,Kyoko's death and Homura's self torture are the most obvious "dire consequences" of her actions and her character's flaws. Those along with what she learns from QB, the advises of her mother and her own personality is what made her do her wish. She didnt learn anything?She didnt do anything for that?Please. Read my post once again. My criticism was not ‘this is how I wanted it to be. ‘ I merely showed how this scene with Hitomi in episode 4, which only leads to introduction of Sayaka as a magical girl, could have also become a spring board for character development. Seriously? It is now Madoka’s fault what Sayaka and others are doing? And I thought that I am the one who doesn’t like Madoka. I didn’t see her learn anything. It is true that she eventually has enough information to make a sensible wish, but as I said, it was not like she was actively seeking them, those information found her. Had Madoka, for example, come to Homura and asked her to tell everything she knows, I would agree with you. Bighandxyz about Argument from authority This is a fallacy because the truth or falsity of a claim is not related to the authority of the claimant, and because the premises can be true, and the conclusion false (an authoritative claim can turn out to be false). Fallacious examples of using the appeal include any appeal to authority used in the context of logical reasoning, and appealing to the position of an authority or authorities to dismiss evidence, as, while authorities can be correct in judgments related to their area of expertise more often than laypersons, they can still come to the wrong judgments through error, bias, dishonesty, or falling prey to groupthink. Thus, the appeal to authority is not a generally reliable argument for establishing facts. Do you understand know why I want the reasoning behind their decision before I agree blindly with anything? I explained why I think Madoka’s character development is no good. Your sea of evidence so far amounts to ‘some critics, anime creators, etc. find Madoka good, therefore it is good.’ |
| "The moment one sits down to think, one becomes all nose, or all forehead, or something horrid. Look at the successful men in any of the learned professions. How perfectly hideous they are! Except, of course, in the Church. But then in the Church they don't think. A bishop keeps on saying at the age of eighty what he was told to say when he was a boy of eighteen, and as a natural consequence he always looks absolutely delightful." |
| "I merely showed how this scene with Hitomi in episode 4, which only leads to introduction of Sayaka as a magical girl, could have also become a spring board for character development. " Thats exactly what ‘this is how I wanted it to be. ‘ means. Mami died because of Madoka's words, Sayaka became a MG ALONE because Madoka wasnt yet ready and then Madoka failed at supporting her mentally.That also leads to Kyoko's death.And of course Madoka making the choice to become a MG in another timeline lead Homura to her torture. She realizes that the life and Fate of a MG isnt beautiful at all, that is one major reason behind her wish.Her resolve to make that wish is strengthened when QB reveals that he has been manipulating the MGs fate since the Stone Age. Homura is a mystery for all of them as well.Before Sayaka's transformation Madoka does try to get info from QB.Not the best source but she does try and when Homura appears and breaks down would indeed be a good time for Madoka to ask her anything, but then she should have abandoned Sayaka(not that she managed to do anything)which wouldnt make sense.After that point she depressed to do anything, which is quite normal.She did TRY to gather info when it was possible. And while Madoka WANTS everyone to get along together, Mami's and Sayaka's opinion of Homura can still affect her. |
FakePriest said: "I merely showed how this scene with Hitomi in episode 4, which only leads to introduction of Sayaka as a magical girl, could have also become a spring board for character development. " Thats exactly what ‘this is how I wanted it to be. ‘ means. Mami died because of Madoka's words, Sayaka became a MG ALONE because Madoka wasnt yet ready and then Madoka failed at supporting her mentally.That also leads to Kyoko's death.And of course Madoka making the choice to become a MG in another timeline lead Homura to her torture. She realizes that the life and Fate of a MG isnt beautiful at all, that is one major reason behind her wish.Her resolve to make that wish is strengthened when QB reveals that he has been manipulating the MGs fate since the Stone Age. Homura is a mystery for all of them as well.Before Sayaka's transformation Madoka does try to get info from QB.Not the best source but she does try and when Homura appears and breaks down would indeed be a good time for Madoka to ask her anything, but then she should have abandoned Sayaka(not that she managed to do anything)which wouldnt make sense.After that point she depressed to do anything, which is quite normal.She did TRY to gather info when it was possible. And while Madoka WANTS everyone to get along together, Mami's and Sayaka's opinion of Homura can still affect her. No, it was not. I am not married to this idea, it was just an example. If the authors showed character development in another way, I wouldn’t mind. My problem is there is no character development. Once again, no, Mami’s reaction and emotions to Madoka’s words are Mami’s responsibility. Ultimately a person is the one in control of their emotions. If you say something to someone, this person's behavior is not your responsibility. If Mami has problem with emotional dependency, it is her problem, not Madoka’s. The same goes for Sayaka, Homura and everyone’s else, their emotions and reactions are their responsibility alone. The problem is she realizes that MG lives are not beautiful after information being practically thrown into her face. Then maybe she should try harder to be successful. Actually, it would be a good idea. To show how Madoka goes from being too dependent on others’ opinions to someone who is independent from others’ opinion and, for example, show her approach people who her friends dislike. |
| "The moment one sits down to think, one becomes all nose, or all forehead, or something horrid. Look at the successful men in any of the learned professions. How perfectly hideous they are! Except, of course, in the Church. But then in the Church they don't think. A bishop keeps on saying at the age of eighty what he was told to say when he was a boy of eighteen, and as a natural consequence he always looks absolutely delightful." |
| So? Once again pointing out character flaws as bad writing. To me it looks like you would prefer more mary sue characters, because that is what your describing here. Also no character development.... you know what that is not even worth my effort arguing that's such a ridiculous statement. |
| I already explained that Madoka finds solution to a problem just due to lucky circumstances, which included Madoka being saved and stopped from becoming a magical girl for a period of time long enough to have necessary information thrown right into her face. This is not character development. This is about being lucky. But I see that this discussion is pointless. I have even pointed out the how to make character development for her and I am still accused of wanting Mary Sues. Though this accusation is funny, since I like characters with a significant character development like Gwendolen Harleth. |
| "The moment one sits down to think, one becomes all nose, or all forehead, or something horrid. Look at the successful men in any of the learned professions. How perfectly hideous they are! Except, of course, in the Church. But then in the Church they don't think. A bishop keeps on saying at the age of eighty what he was told to say when he was a boy of eighteen, and as a natural consequence he always looks absolutely delightful." |
Lain666 said: I already explained that Madoka finds solution to a problem just due to lucky circumstances, which included Madoka being saved and stopped from becoming a magical girl for a period of time long enough to have necessary information thrown right into her face. This is not character development. This is about being lucky So you want her to make a decision without information? This is just getting more stupid. Or am I getting the feeling you want our Madoka to be some kind of investigator, which seems more like a WANT than anything to do with character development. And what you have described as YOUR potential improvements are all signs of a Mary Sue character. |
Lain666 said: FakePriest said: "I merely showed how this scene with Hitomi in episode 4, which only leads to introduction of Sayaka as a magical girl, could have also become a spring board for character development. " Thats exactly what ‘this is how I wanted it to be. ‘ means. Mami died because of Madoka's words, Sayaka became a MG ALONE because Madoka wasnt yet ready and then Madoka failed at supporting her mentally.That also leads to Kyoko's death.And of course Madoka making the choice to become a MG in another timeline lead Homura to her torture. She realizes that the life and Fate of a MG isnt beautiful at all, that is one major reason behind her wish.Her resolve to make that wish is strengthened when QB reveals that he has been manipulating the MGs fate since the Stone Age. Homura is a mystery for all of them as well.Before Sayaka's transformation Madoka does try to get info from QB.Not the best source but she does try and when Homura appears and breaks down would indeed be a good time for Madoka to ask her anything, but then she should have abandoned Sayaka(not that she managed to do anything)which wouldnt make sense.After that point she depressed to do anything, which is quite normal.She did TRY to gather info when it was possible. And while Madoka WANTS everyone to get along together, Mami's and Sayaka's opinion of Homura can still affect her. No, it was not. I am not married to this idea, it was just an example. If the authors showed character development in another way, I wouldn’t mind. My problem is there is no character development. Once again, no, Mami’s reaction and emotions to Madoka’s words are Mami’s responsibility. Ultimately a person is the one in control of their emotions. If you say something to someone, this person's behavior is not your responsibility. If Mami has problem with emotional dependency, it is her problem, not Madoka’s. The same goes for Sayaka, Homura and everyone’s else, their emotions and reactions are their responsibility alone. The problem is she realizes that MG lives are not beautiful after information being practically thrown into her face. Then maybe she should try harder to be successful. Actually, it would be a good idea. To show how Madoka goes from being too dependent on others’ opinions to someone who is independent from others’ opinion and, for example, show her approach people who her friends dislike. BUt it was Madoka who made her feel that way.Some people do think that it is their fault if a person changes even a bi t and that change leads to something bad.Some goes for the others, if Madoka could AND did something for them, from helping in battles to emotional support, all of them or at least most of them may have been saved. She realizes that after Mami's death.She just has a small hope about it being one event but then she AND everyone not named Homura she the actual truth. Now you just want to force a character do something she isnt at the time capable of doing. Lain666 said: I already explained that Madoka finds solution to a problem just due to lucky circumstances, which included Madoka being saved and stopped from becoming a magical girl for a period of time long enough to have necessary information thrown right into her face. This is not character development. This is about being lucky. But I see that this discussion is pointless. I have even pointed out the how to make character development for her and I am still accused of wanting Mary Sues. Though this accusation is funny, since I like characters with a significant character development like Gwendolen Harleth. But she wasnt lucky, or any of those girls. They arent clever enough to think that magical girls are just the first phase of the witches, they dont know that the Soul Gems actually are or QB's real plan and identity. They CANT ask about those and even if they did ask about what is going on QB would throw them some half truths. |
| bighandxyz I didn’t copy just from wikipedia, but more importantly I have found their reasoning. An outstanding animation with an ingenious magical scenario The winner of the Grand Prize for a television series for the second year in a row. This year the work drew particular praise as an original work for animation, rather than being based on an existing manga or novel. The series continued to be an ambitious one, skillfully setting critical traps that shook the very foundations of the genre, leaving viewers unsure about the premises upon which this otherwise common theme of the "magical girl" is based. The seemingly adorable familiar Kyubey offers to grant a girl a wish if she will enter into a "contract" to become a magical girl and fight witches. Both the terror that lurks within "desire" and the emotional reaction to "miracles" that overcomes that fear……these are two sides of one coin, both born of the human heart. Putting the particular "media characteristics" of a television series — in which one must wait a full week to learn what happens next……to their best use, the series maximized the tension within the viewers’ minds even as they enjoyed the show’s beautiful images. The script is overflowing with the revolutionary energy that always strives to change things. With the hope that this series will become the necessary catalyst to change the world we live in, we award it the Grand Prize. In other words, they liked it, because it is different from other magical girls. I agree that Madoka is darker and edgier than what one would expect from a typical magical girl and I do not take issue with that. My problem is with the characters and they write nothing about them. The fact that some characters are average, Sayaka, and some are mediocre, Madoka and Homura, stopped me from feeling any greater tension about their fate. It seems the characters just did not bother the jury that much nor do it seems they were blown away by characterization/character development, since they did not seem to think that it is something at least worth mentioning. FakePriest You cannot make someone feel certain way, you can try to influence someone by your behavior and words, but it is up to that person how he/she will feel about this. For example, you can try insult people in order to make them angry and while some people will be insulted and angry, some will ignore you and some may even laugh at your attempt to outrage them. It depends entirely on the person insulted how she/he will react to it. As I stated, if Mami has an emotional dependency problem, it is not Madoka’s fault. I can only agree that Madoka may have given more emotional support, but it still does not release Sayaka from being responsible for her own reactions/emotions. But she wasnt lucky, or any of those girls. Madoka is in situation where small mistake like becoming a magical girl and wasting her only wish on something trivial could easily make her end up dead and she is stopped from becoming a magical and she doesn’t need to struggle to figure out what is going on; information is thrown right at her face. She is lucky. |
Lain666Oct 31, 2014 11:05 PM
| "The moment one sits down to think, one becomes all nose, or all forehead, or something horrid. Look at the successful men in any of the learned professions. How perfectly hideous they are! Except, of course, in the Church. But then in the Church they don't think. A bishop keeps on saying at the age of eighty what he was told to say when he was a boy of eighteen, and as a natural consequence he always looks absolutely delightful." |
| Cleaned back 3 or so pages back~ This thread isn't for you to bait/flame each other. Stop. |
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| I am not saying that it IS Madoka's fault;tat she is responsible.It's how she would feel about it.There is no logic in that, some people can blame themselves.Even more so in situations like in the show. I dont even she what is your point any more.She made OTHER mistakes and she FOUND out OTHER information using a different way.She is lucky because nothing major, like death or injury, happened to her?Come on. |
Tyrel said: Cleaned back 3 or so pages back~ This thread isn't for you to bait/flame each other. Stop. This whole thread is  |
   |
| Madoka's development is less about changing her and more about bringing out, and pronouncing, another side to her. We see her trying to make a wish each time only to be stopped, but the initiative just wasn't fully realized until she had some idea of what she really wanted to do. I don't fault that, but I have problems with how her development/fleshing out is stringed along by too many coincidental blocks. By themselves they don't bother me, but combined with things like Sayaka apparently being a naive girl who won Kyouko over (despite how this shouldn't be the first time Kyouko's come across this naivety), Sayaka's parents being completely absent (Madoka's family is still concerned for her at least), and it honestly feels like, as so many put it, a world for the characters to suffer in instead of the characters suffering in the world. Now, despite that, the show got even better when I rewatched it a few months back, but it's honestly not hard to see how the theater-like story can be off putting. |
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| Why would anyone hate it? It's perfectly fine to dislike this series, but to hate it? Nah, I don't think so. I think the only flaw there that it was too short. I think 24 episodes would have fit it more, the characters and plot would be more developed. But it's okay series, I liked it. |
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robis798 said: Length was fine. It was enough time for the story. The characters getting more would be nice though.Why would anyone hate it? It's perfectly fine to dislike this series, but to hate it? Nah, I don't think so. I think the only flaw there that it was too short. I think 24 episodes would have fit it more, the characters and plot would be more developed. But it's okay series, I liked it. |
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BotatoPriest said: robis798 said: Length was fine. It was enough time for the story. The characters getting more would be nice though.Why would anyone hate it? It's perfectly fine to dislike this series, but to hate it? Nah, I don't think so. I think the only flaw there that it was too short. I think 24 episodes would have fit it more, the characters and plot would be more developed. But it's okay series, I liked it. This. The characters felt underdeveloped. That's really my only beef with the series. I felt like something was missing the whole time, but I can't really place my finger on what, because I do appreciate what our good friend Urobutcher likes to do with his stories. |
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| By that I am mainly referring to Mami because she barely got any and Kyouko because she's cool. Apparently there's this manga about them though so maybe I'll change my mind when I read that. |
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| Yeah, the Different Story really fleshes both of them out, especially Mami. Well worth reading. |
| "Burn this sight into your minds. This is what it means to be a magical girl." |
| I might have to give Different Story a read then. Mami and Kyoko were where most of my issues lie. Not so much with Homura or Sayaka, they both seemed complete (for lack of a better term). Madoka's development seemed a little rushed in the end, but it was there, there is only so much that can be accomplished in twelve episodes. Kind of the same deal with the side cast, I felt like there were places where things were lacking, but a well developed side cast isn't as important in my eyes as a well developed main cast. But if some of the other mangas shed some light into that, I might as well pick them up. |
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RLinksoul said: IS there any reason for that?steepholm said: Yeah, the Different Story really fleshes both of them out, especially Mami. Well worth reading. Seconding that. It even manages to redeem Kamijou, who is typically disliked by even fans of the show. What "he did" isnt even his fault. It was Sayaka who lost it and decided to step back.Unless if something happened in the series that I dont remember some "fans" have serious issues. |
| First time I hear about people hating Kamijou, but if I had to guess, it would be because he is an ungrateful bastard for not getting with Sayaka because she TOTALLY deserves him more than the other girl? Heh, the same kind of people who started hating on ^Nested spoilers, first one name of character and show, second one what happened. Just in case. |
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Illustration said: I dont like it cause the girls look like lolis. +1 |
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AllenVonStein said: 14 year olds that are barely over 150cm look like lolis to you?Illustration said: I dont like it cause the girls look like lolis. +1 |
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