Why are most female characters in shonen garbage?

Apr 8, 2022 11:35 AM

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Aug 2020

755

katsucats said:

Schwarznight said:
i think most male mangakas are incels

A bit crass, but essentially true. A lot of mangakas obviously has no idea how relationships work, and still think doing favors for and protecting girls make them fall for you, exactly like those manipulative "nice guys" in Western pop culture. Then, that creates an echo chamber feedback loop where all the incels flock to anime, and they start justifying each others' existences.

Calling it the "target audience" begs the question, why are teenagers incels? The answer is they're not! Anime only targets the incel ones. This is just one of the problems we've all either learned to put up with and ignore, or just drop all the mainstream shows. Everyone else who's seen more than several anime and still praising the virtues of Naruto and JJK obviously let their preferences for weak demure Asian women who will serve them be known.

You can tell, even the so-called strong women in anime have their pigeon toed in, sit with their feet pointing out (unnatural positions showing vulnerability), and need a man to "protect" them. Like the main character in 86. When female characters get defeated, they lose their tough front and revert to little girls. There are no truly "strong" female characters in shounen anime. It's like a conservative talking point, like women are just pretending when they're not in the kitchen.

Probably one of the best answers I have seen on here. Thank. And sorry for being blunt with my incel remark. Sometimes, I have no filter.

Apr 8, 2022 11:38 AM

#52

Sakuta002766

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Feb 2019

5508

Sifu_Hotman_ said:

Sakuta002766 said:

I don't see how black clover has better female characters than old shounen anime

Noelle is just strong but generic tsundere character

Other female characters of black clover aren't even worth mentioning.

IMO Noelle's training and fight against the dark triad was really good character devolpment even if she isn't the strongest, and Mereoleona is just an awesome character that is like a mentor character even to someone like Yami. Vanessa and Secre are also really enjoyable characters that has unqile powers and their own arcs.

Mereoleona is just strong, nothing more
Secre is enjoyable but..
But I'm sure if i would call them great female characters

Apr 8, 2022 11:41 AM

#53

A_G_N

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Jun 2020

882

Schwarznight said:

A_G_N said:
Tsunade was fine dude? What are you talking about? I think that entire "kishimoto stating he doesn't know how to write females", is meant for a romantic scenario. People just took it like he doesn't know in general. There are some decent females in Naruto, it's not all bad.

But the female thing isn't exclusive to shonen. It's more of - anime in general has that in majority loads.

Infact shonen ones are probably better, just on the fact that they're more normal and less weebish compared to the weeb cutefest cringefest like Mai, Kaguya, Rem or whatever that gets to the top list of female slut list in MAL. Exceptions apply(like Mikasa, the hollywood version of "great female character")

Not saying shonen isn't bad now, but it's definitely better in comparison. In shonen, it's more like - if the females are braindead, then the males are too.

Females outside of shonen generally only are liked/loved because they were cute, sexy, devote their entire life to the mc(which the weebs would orgasm to, because they obviously self inserted)

Rarely will you find "character writing" to be the reason. And the characters like Emilia or Mai - where the author tries to bait with the "it's all about her writing", usually end up being done so badly. And the females end up having no standards.

The female hides behind the writing wall intially, when it actuality she is still there for the sole reason for the mc(and the weebs) to plunge their dick into.

It's astonishing how low it is, the number of females in anime that I respect enough to see that they have a character and a standard as a human being.

Tsunade was the worst hokage from Konoha, imo. This is one of my issues. She was much better than Sakura, but she was no Minato. Jiraiya was a much better character. When compared to the male counterparts, she was lacking. But Kishi, I guess, made up with her bust size. On paper she can punch strong. But let's face it. She is not even in the top 20 fighters. Kaguya was added at the end to give female characters more power...and also because Kishi wrote himself into a conrner by making Madara OP. She was an afterthought. Most of the female characters in Naruto are lacking. Tsunade was even directly related to the First Hokage. It would have have been better for a female to become Hokage without having such a connection.

Power isn't what makes a good character. And Hiruzen is the worst hokage from Konoha for a bunch of reasons.

Tsunade's arc started with her brother and lover dying and her getting PTSD to blood. Which would be rectified with Naruto coming in. Generally level headed she is, it was obvious Jiraiya and her had romantic tension but she didn't indulge until he was dead.

Another one of her loved ones died, but this time - without faltering she moved on to defend the village from pain, showing that she wouldn't go back the same PTSD state. She also had a psuedo mother/grandmother relationship with Naruto, where she does help him.

Naruto's bet with her, for Naruto to stay alive was pretty much the only time she "won" a bet. A decent female character is one with enough depth, standards, logic and smarts. The relationships she have with people also make her good.

So how strong they are is not what makes a good character, but all the depth, standards shit I said at top.

Apr 8, 2022 11:42 AM

#54

Schwarznight

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Aug 2020

755

BilboBaggins365 said:

Schwarznight said:

lmao. that's funny. i think most male mangakas are incels

Well that ain't correct Isayama and Kishimoto are married lol.

IDK we have been getting good female characters in new shonen manga of late. It's kinda also dumb to argue women in general write female characters better as well or that there aren't plenty of well written female characters if we are just going to make this about male mangaka and not shonen manga anymore.

Bro, for a second I thought you meant Kishi was married to Isayama, lmfao. They might be married, but I get the feeling they are bitter about something. But, the most realistic answer is that it is a cultural thing. In Japan, women are normally stay at home wives. Men are the breadwinner. I think a lot of this stems from cultural upbringing. As others have pointed out...Female mangakas also write garbage female characters. It's not exclusive to male mangakas.

Apr 8, 2022 11:46 AM

#55

Crona_Gorgon666

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Aug 2019

10

Usually 70% of everything is garbage or uninteresting, probably if you think most male characters are good you are easily impressed

Apr 8, 2022 11:46 AM

#56

BilboBaggins365

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Oct 2017

5307

Schwarznight said:

BilboBaggins365 said:

Well that ain't correct Isayama and Kishimoto are married lol.

IDK we have been getting good female characters in new shonen manga of late. It's kinda also dumb to argue women in general write female characters better as well or that there aren't plenty of well written female characters if we are just going to make this about male mangaka and not shonen manga anymore.

Bro, for a second I thought you meant Kishi was married to Isayama, lmfao. They might be married, but I get the feeling they are bitter about something. But, the most realistic answer is that it is a cultural thing. In Japan, women are normally stay at home wives. Men are the breadwinner. I think a lot of this stems from cultural upbringing. As others have pointed out...Female mangakas also write garbage female characters. It's not exclusive to male mangakas.

I mean I am just going to bet they just struggled with character writing which is also reflected in their male characters as well than your pseudo analysis of a person you don't know from fictional works. Their female characters started off fine with good places you could take them they just fucked up areas of the story.

As for a cultural thing how is that relevant? You have plenty of action hero female characters like pretty much all of Masamune Shirow's characters, Yo Tan Wa from Kingdom, Aspira from Golden Kamuy all male writers if that is how you are judging stuff. I mean the domestic character archetype alone doesn't equal bad female writing either. Honestly assuming that is kinda sexist too.

Ultimately it's male targeted fiction. The male MC usually is going to be the star and primary deciding factor in the story. That is true in a lot of YA female fiction over here. Female MC usually is the deciding factor. If we had more prominent action shojo/josei titles you would find that to be the case too.

Apr 8, 2022 11:50 AM

#57

Schwarznight

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Aug 2020

755

A_G_N said:

Schwarznight said:

Tsunade was the worst hokage from Konoha, imo. This is one of my issues. She was much better than Sakura, but she was no Minato. Jiraiya was a much better character. When compared to the male counterparts, she was lacking. But Kishi, I guess, made up with her bust size. On paper she can punch strong. But let's face it. She is not even in the top 20 fighters. Kaguya was added at the end to give female characters more power...and also because Kishi wrote himself into a conrner by making Madara OP. She was an afterthought. Most of the female characters in Naruto are lacking. Tsunade was even directly related to the First Hokage. It would have have been better for a female to become Hokage without having such a connection.

Power isn't what makes a good character. And Hiruzen is the worst hokage from Konoha for a bunch of reasons.

Tsunade's arc started with her brother and lover dying and her getting PTSD to blood. Which would be rectified with Naruto coming in. Generally level headed she is, it was obvious Jiraiya and her had romantic tension but she didn't indulge until he was dead.

Another one of her loved ones died, but this time - without faltering she moved on to defend the village from pain, showing that she wouldn't go back the same PTSD state. She also had a psuedo mother/grandmother relationship with Naruto, where she does help him.

Naruto's bet with her, for Naruto to stay alive was pretty much the only time she "won" a bet. A decent female character is one with enough depth, standards, logic and smarts. The relationships she have with people also make her good.

So how strong they are is not what makes a good character, but all the depth, standards shit I said at top.

Yeah, but I didn't think she was that complex either. Hiruzen gave up his life when he went up against Orochimaru. I am comparing the best females with the best males in the show.

But those are excellent points. She did punch that rock thingy after Kakashi "died" and continued. Props to her.

The whole strength aspect fails, though. Kishi appears to have intentionally given Tsunade, and by extension Sakura, her protégé, super strength, to compensate and to break stereotypes. To show that women can be strong. A lot of it is artificial. Like Kaguya coming in as a powerful villainess. The fact remains that Tsunade was still weak despite Kishi intentionally trying to say "Look. Women can punch hard." Tsunade also did a lot of that lip biting, and she was intentionally sexualised.

But I agree, she is a character that had trauma.

Still think Jiraiya or Kakashi would have been better choices. She, imo, didn't earn her place. Kishi just wanted to create a female Hokage for Konoha, to make it seem "fair". Seems artificial.

Apr 8, 2022 11:55 AM

#58

Schwarznight

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Aug 2020

755

BilboBaggins365 said:

Schwarznight said:

Bro, for a second I thought you meant Kishi was married to Isayama, lmfao. They might be married, but I get the feeling they are bitter about something. But, the most realistic answer is that it is a cultural thing. In Japan, women are normally stay at home wives. Men are the breadwinner. I think a lot of this stems from cultural upbringing. As others have pointed out...Female mangakas also write garbage female characters. It's not exclusive to male mangakas.

I mean I am just going to bet they just struggled with character writing which is also reflected in their male characters as well than your pseudo analysis of a person you don't know from fictional works. Their female characters started off fine with good places you could take them they just fucked up areas of the story.

As for a cultural thing how is that relevant? You have plenty of action hero female characters like pretty much all of Masamune Shirow's characters, Yo Tan Wa from Kingdom, Aspira from Golden Kamuy all male writers if that is how you are judging stuff. I mean the domestic character archetype alone doesn't equal bad female writing either. Honestly assuming that is kinda sexist too.

Ultimately it's male targeted fiction. The male MC usually is going to be the star and primary deciding factor in the story. That is true in a lot of YA female fiction over here. Female MC usually is the deciding factor. If we had more prominent action shojo/josei titles you would find that to be the case too.

Not talking about the MC, though. A lot of Shounen MC's are irritable, though. In Naruto, for example, I think characters like Shikamaru, Pain, Itachi or Madara were more interesting than Naruto. In Bleach, I found Aizen, Urahara and Kenpachi more interesting. I am talking about side characters. The male counterparts just tend to be better developed on average. There is no need for this to be the case. No rule that says side characters also have to be poor compared to their male counterparts.

Apr 8, 2022 11:57 AM

#59

Phosphophyllita

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Oct 2018

5804

SageModeTice said:

Phosphophyllita said:
You should try watching battle shoujo then, there the women are the protagonists and the men are generic.

If you think that Itachi is complex, well... I might have bad news for you.

If you think anyone cares about your opinion on the complexity of Itachi's character... Well I might have some bad news for you...

Yep, I hope nobody cares about my shit opinion.
Have a great weekend.

If you're a fanboy, please don't waste my time.

Watch more movies, please.

Perhaps, this is hell.

Apr 8, 2022 11:58 AM

#60

BilboBaggins365

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Oct 2017

5307

Schwarznight said:

BilboBaggins365 said:

I mean I am just going to bet they just struggled with character writing which is also reflected in their male characters as well than your pseudo analysis of a person you don't know from fictional works. Their female characters started off fine with good places you could take them they just fucked up areas of the story.

As for a cultural thing how is that relevant? You have plenty of action hero female characters like pretty much all of Masamune Shirow's characters, Yo Tan Wa from Kingdom, Aspira from Golden Kamuy all male writers if that is how you are judging stuff. I mean the domestic character archetype alone doesn't equal bad female writing either. Honestly assuming that is kinda sexist too.

Ultimately it's male targeted fiction. The male MC usually is going to be the star and primary deciding factor in the story. That is true in a lot of YA female fiction over here. Female MC usually is the deciding factor. If we had more prominent action shojo/josei titles you would find that to be the case too.

Not talking about the MC, though. A lot of Shounen MC's are irritable, though. In Naruto, for example, I think characters like Shikamaru, Pain, Itachi or Madara were more interesting than Naruto. In Bleach, I found Aizen, Urahara and Kenpachi more interesting. I am talking about side characters. The male counterparts just tend to be better developed on average. There is no need for this to be the case. No rule that says side characters also have to be poor compared to their male counterparts.

I mean those characters I named like Aspira and Yo Tan Wa aren't MCs though yeah they are from seinen manga. Though with manga like Frieren Beyond Journey's End, Spy x Family, Chainsaw Man I think this narrative of female shonen characters are uninteresting feels increasingly dated.

Apr 8, 2022 12:07 PM

#61

alshu

Offline

May 2018

12378

"Why are most female characters in shonen garbage?"

Because everyone is garbage in shounen.

AlShu's recommendations Interest Stacks

Apr 8, 2022 12:20 PM

#62

A_G_N

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Jun 2020

882

Schwarznight said:

A_G_N said:

Schwarznight said:

A_G_N said:
Tsunade was fine dude? What are you talking about? I think that entire "kishimoto stating he doesn't know how to write females", is meant for a romantic scenario. People just took it like he doesn't know in general. There are some decent females in Naruto, it's not all bad.

But the female thing isn't exclusive to shonen. It's more of - anime in general has that in majority loads.

Infact shonen ones are probably better, just on the fact that they're more normal and less weebish compared to the weeb cutefest cringefest like Mai, Kaguya, Rem or whatever that gets to the top list of female slut list in MAL. Exceptions apply(like Mikasa, the hollywood version of "great female character")

Not saying shonen isn't bad now, but it's definitely better in comparison. In shonen, it's more like - if the females are braindead, then the males are too.

Females outside of shonen generally only are liked/loved because they were cute, sexy, devote their entire life to the mc(which the weebs would orgasm to, because they obviously self inserted)

Rarely will you find "character writing" to be the reason. And the characters like Emilia or Mai - where the author tries to bait with the "it's all about her writing", usually end up being done so badly. And the females end up having no standards.

The female hides behind the writing wall intially, when it actuality she is still there for the sole reason for the mc(and the weebs) to plunge their dick into.

It's astonishing how low it is, the number of females in anime that I respect enough to see that they have a character and a standard as a human being.

Tsunade was the worst hokage from Konoha, imo. This is one of my issues. She was much better than Sakura, but she was no Minato. Jiraiya was a much better character. When compared to the male counterparts, she was lacking. But Kishi, I guess, made up with her bust size. On paper she can punch strong. But let's face it. She is not even in the top 20 fighters. Kaguya was added at the end to give female characters more power...and also because Kishi wrote himself into a conrner by making Madara OP. She was an afterthought. Most of the female characters in Naruto are lacking. Tsunade was even directly related to the First Hokage. It would have have been better for a female to become Hokage without having such a connection.

Power isn't what makes a good character. And Hiruzen is the worst hokage from Konoha for a bunch of reasons.

Tsunade's arc started with her brother and lover dying and her getting PTSD to blood. Which would be rectified with Naruto coming in. Generally level headed she is, it was obvious Jiraiya and her had romantic tension but she didn't indulge until he was dead.

Another one of her loved ones died, but this time - without faltering she moved on to defend the village from pain, showing that she wouldn't go back the same PTSD state. She also had a psuedo mother/grandmother relationship with Naruto, where she does help him.

Naruto's bet with her, for Naruto to stay alive was pretty much the only time she "won" a bet. A decent female character is one with enough depth, standards, logic and smarts. The relationships she have with people also make her good.

So how strong they are is not what makes a good character, but all the depth, standards shit I said at top.

Yeah, but I didn't think she was that complex either. Hiruzen gave up his life when he went up against Orochimaru. I am comparing the best females with the best males in the show.

But those are excellent points. She did punch that rock thingy after Kakashi "died" and continued. Props to her.

The whole strength aspect fails, though. Kishi appears to have intentionally given Tsunade, and by extension Sakura, her protégé, super strength, to compensate and to break stereotypes. To show that women can be strong. A lot of it is artificial. Like Kaguya coming in as a powerful villainess. The fact remains that Tsunade was still weak despite Kishi intentionally trying to say "Look. Women can punch hard." Tsunade also did a lot of that lip biting, and she was intentionally sexualised.

But I agree, she is a character that had trauma.

Still think Jiraiya or Kakashi would have been better choices. She, imo, didn't earn her place. Kishi just wanted to create a female Hokage for Konoha, to make it seem "fair". Seems artificial.

Kaguya was just Shonen jump pushing Kishimoto so a plotline for the sequel could be had, for milking. So he created that entire thing in a short time anyway - Boruto, and that became trash so..

I mean, she did help defeat Hanzo and left the path of ninja after her close ones died right after. She became obsessed with gambling after that for coping I guess.

She did save the hokages after that Madara fight now, and during the pain fight, she was giving out medical attention to most people on the battle field, which is why they were alive.

Going by feats doesn't seem like a good choice to indicate her power. Cuz we know she's stronger than Kakashi. I think accomplishments is what you're asking.

Again, Jiraiya is who recommended her to be hokage in the first place. More because she is capable(but also bcz he didn't want to). For the sexualisation, I mean Jiraiya is her team mate, it was impossible. And the lip biting thing does when she is frustrated, and it's pretty rare. I never even viewed that as sexual lmao.

Kakashi wouldn't have worked. He was nowhere close to the strength he was at the end of shippuden. I mean he did become hokage at the end though.

But characters like Temari and Kushina did exist. Mei Terumi was also there, and we've seen she's also capable. I am only saying they're fine though, I can agree they're not close to Naruto or Itachi character writing.

Apr 8, 2022 12:35 PM

#63

Schwarznight

Offline

Aug 2020

755

A_G_N said:

Schwarznight said:

A_G_N said:

Schwarznight said:

A_G_N said:
Tsunade was fine dude? What are you talking about? I think that entire "kishimoto stating he doesn't know how to write females", is meant for a romantic scenario. People just took it like he doesn't know in general. There are some decent females in Naruto, it's not all bad.

But the female thing isn't exclusive to shonen. It's more of - anime in general has that in majority loads.

Infact shonen ones are probably better, just on the fact that they're more normal and less weebish compared to the weeb cutefest cringefest like Mai, Kaguya, Rem or whatever that gets to the top list of female slut list in MAL. Exceptions apply(like Mikasa, the hollywood version of "great female character")

Not saying shonen isn't bad now, but it's definitely better in comparison. In shonen, it's more like - if the females are braindead, then the males are too.

Females outside of shonen generally only are liked/loved because they were cute, sexy, devote their entire life to the mc(which the weebs would orgasm to, because they obviously self inserted)

Rarely will you find "character writing" to be the reason. And the characters like Emilia or Mai - where the author tries to bait with the "it's all about her writing", usually end up being done so badly. And the females end up having no standards.

The female hides behind the writing wall intially, when it actuality she is still there for the sole reason for the mc(and the weebs) to plunge their dick into.

It's astonishing how low it is, the number of females in anime that I respect enough to see that they have a character and a standard as a human being.

Tsunade was the worst hokage from Konoha, imo. This is one of my issues. She was much better than Sakura, but she was no Minato. Jiraiya was a much better character. When compared to the male counterparts, she was lacking. But Kishi, I guess, made up with her bust size. On paper she can punch strong. But let's face it. She is not even in the top 20 fighters. Kaguya was added at the end to give female characters more power...and also because Kishi wrote himself into a conrner by making Madara OP. She was an afterthought. Most of the female characters in Naruto are lacking. Tsunade was even directly related to the First Hokage. It would have have been better for a female to become Hokage without having such a connection.

Power isn't what makes a good character. And Hiruzen is the worst hokage from Konoha for a bunch of reasons.

Tsunade's arc started with her brother and lover dying and her getting PTSD to blood. Which would be rectified with Naruto coming in. Generally level headed she is, it was obvious Jiraiya and her had romantic tension but she didn't indulge until he was dead.

Another one of her loved ones died, but this time - without faltering she moved on to defend the village from pain, showing that she wouldn't go back the same PTSD state. She also had a psuedo mother/grandmother relationship with Naruto, where she does help him.

Naruto's bet with her, for Naruto to stay alive was pretty much the only time she "won" a bet. A decent female character is one with enough depth, standards, logic and smarts. The relationships she have with people also make her good.

So how strong they are is not what makes a good character, but all the depth, standards shit I said at top.

Yeah, but I didn't think she was that complex either. Hiruzen gave up his life when he went up against Orochimaru. I am comparing the best females with the best males in the show.

But those are excellent points. She did punch that rock thingy after Kakashi "died" and continued. Props to her.

The whole strength aspect fails, though. Kishi appears to have intentionally given Tsunade, and by extension Sakura, her protégé, super strength, to compensate and to break stereotypes. To show that women can be strong. A lot of it is artificial. Like Kaguya coming in as a powerful villainess. The fact remains that Tsunade was still weak despite Kishi intentionally trying to say "Look. Women can punch hard." Tsunade also did a lot of that lip biting, and she was intentionally sexualised.

But I agree, she is a character that had trauma.

Still think Jiraiya or Kakashi would have been better choices. She, imo, didn't earn her place. Kishi just wanted to create a female Hokage for Konoha, to make it seem "fair". Seems artificial.

Kaguya was just Shonen jump pushing Kishimoto so a plotline for the sequel could be had, for milking. So he created that entire thing in a short time anyway - Boruto, and that became trash so..

I mean, she did help defeat Hanzo and left the path of ninja after her close ones died right after. She became obsessed with gambling after that for coping I guess.

She did save the hokages after that Madara fight now, and during the pain fight, she was giving out medical attention to most people on the battle field, which is why they were alive.

Going by feats doesn't seem like a good choice to indicate her power. Cuz we know she's stronger than Kakashi. I think accomplishments is what you're asking.

Again, Jiraiya is who recommended her to be hokage in the first place. More because she is capable(but also bcz he didn't want to). For the sexualisation, I mean Jiraiya is her team mate, it was impossible. And the lip biting thing does when she is frustrated, and it's pretty rare. I never even viewed that as sexual lmao.

Kakashi wouldn't have worked. He was nowhere close to the strength he was at the end of shippuden. I mean he did become hokage at the end though.

But characters like Temari and Kushina did exist. Mei Terumi was also there, and we've seen she's also capable. I am only saying they're fine though, I can agree they're not close to Naruto or Itachi character writing.

Tsunade is the most complex female character in Naruto, I'll give you that. She also had a drinking problem. Still think kakashi would have beaten her in a fight. The sharingan is just too OP.

Sure, she did a lot of great things on the battlefield. That's true. I'll accept that I was too harsh about her... She had trauma and other aspects that made her multidimensional. Still think that Kishi gave her lame powers. Make her strong...but then have gazillion guys who would shit on her, lol. If he was going to make her "strong", at least have her in the top 10 or something. Problem is that power creep happened, and too many OP characters were intrduced. Kishi kept on upgrading the sharingan and what it could do...He was clearly making shit up as he went along.

Tenten, Temari and Kushina were intereting. Team Guy was done dirty, so Tenten was never explored properly.

Yeah, the lipbiting was not necessarily sexualised....Just found it funny.

Apr 8, 2022 12:39 PM

#64

Schwarznight

Offline

Aug 2020

755

A_G_N said:

Schwarznight said:

A_G_N said:

Schwarznight said:

A_G_N said:
Tsunade was fine dude? What are you talking about? I think that entire "kishimoto stating he doesn't know how to write females", is meant for a romantic scenario. People just took it like he doesn't know in general. There are some decent females in Naruto, it's not all bad.

But the female thing isn't exclusive to shonen. It's more of - anime in general has that in majority loads.

Infact shonen ones are probably better, just on the fact that they're more normal and less weebish compared to the weeb cutefest cringefest like Mai, Kaguya, Rem or whatever that gets to the top list of female slut list in MAL. Exceptions apply(like Mikasa, the hollywood version of "great female character")

Not saying shonen isn't bad now, but it's definitely better in comparison. In shonen, it's more like - if the females are braindead, then the males are too.

Females outside of shonen generally only are liked/loved because they were cute, sexy, devote their entire life to the mc(which the weebs would orgasm to, because they obviously self inserted)

Rarely will you find "character writing" to be the reason. And the characters like Emilia or Mai - where the author tries to bait with the "it's all about her writing", usually end up being done so badly. And the females end up having no standards.

The female hides behind the writing wall intially, when it actuality she is still there for the sole reason for the mc(and the weebs) to plunge their dick into.

It's astonishing how low it is, the number of females in anime that I respect enough to see that they have a character and a standard as a human being.

Tsunade was the worst hokage from Konoha, imo. This is one of my issues. She was much better than Sakura, but she was no Minato. Jiraiya was a much better character. When compared to the male counterparts, she was lacking. But Kishi, I guess, made up with her bust size. On paper she can punch strong. But let's face it. She is not even in the top 20 fighters. Kaguya was added at the end to give female characters more power...and also because Kishi wrote himself into a conrner by making Madara OP. She was an afterthought. Most of the female characters in Naruto are lacking. Tsunade was even directly related to the First Hokage. It would have have been better for a female to become Hokage without having such a connection.

Power isn't what makes a good character. And Hiruzen is the worst hokage from Konoha for a bunch of reasons.

Tsunade's arc started with her brother and lover dying and her getting PTSD to blood. Which would be rectified with Naruto coming in. Generally level headed she is, it was obvious Jiraiya and her had romantic tension but she didn't indulge until he was dead.

Another one of her loved ones died, but this time - without faltering she moved on to defend the village from pain, showing that she wouldn't go back the same PTSD state. She also had a psuedo mother/grandmother relationship with Naruto, where she does help him.

Naruto's bet with her, for Naruto to stay alive was pretty much the only time she "won" a bet. A decent female character is one with enough depth, standards, logic and smarts. The relationships she have with people also make her good.

So how strong they are is not what makes a good character, but all the depth, standards shit I said at top.

Yeah, but I didn't think she was that complex either. Hiruzen gave up his life when he went up against Orochimaru. I am comparing the best females with the best males in the show.

But those are excellent points. She did punch that rock thingy after Kakashi "died" and continued. Props to her.

The whole strength aspect fails, though. Kishi appears to have intentionally given Tsunade, and by extension Sakura, her protégé, super strength, to compensate and to break stereotypes. To show that women can be strong. A lot of it is artificial. Like Kaguya coming in as a powerful villainess. The fact remains that Tsunade was still weak despite Kishi intentionally trying to say "Look. Women can punch hard." Tsunade also did a lot of that lip biting, and she was intentionally sexualised.

But I agree, she is a character that had trauma.

Still think Jiraiya or Kakashi would have been better choices. She, imo, didn't earn her place. Kishi just wanted to create a female Hokage for Konoha, to make it seem "fair". Seems artificial.

Kaguya was just Shonen jump pushing Kishimoto so a plotline for the sequel could be had, for milking. So he created that entire thing in a short time anyway - Boruto, and that became trash so..

I mean, she did help defeat Hanzo and left the path of ninja after her close ones died right after. She became obsessed with gambling after that for coping I guess.

She did save the hokages after that Madara fight now, and during the pain fight, she was giving out medical attention to most people on the battle field, which is why they were alive.

Going by feats doesn't seem like a good choice to indicate her power. Cuz we know she's stronger than Kakashi. I think accomplishments is what you're asking.

Again, Jiraiya is who recommended her to be hokage in the first place. More because she is capable(but also bcz he didn't want to). For the sexualisation, I mean Jiraiya is her team mate, it was impossible. And the lip biting thing does when she is frustrated, and it's pretty rare. I never even viewed that as sexual lmao.

Kakashi wouldn't have worked. He was nowhere close to the strength he was at the end of shippuden. I mean he did become hokage at the end though.

But characters like Temari and Kushina did exist. Mei Terumi was also there, and we've seen she's also capable. I am only saying they're fine though, I can agree they're not close to Naruto or Itachi character writing.

I actually found Naruto as a character irritating. "Dattebayo!" and talk no jutsu. Lol. The same way I find the main guy from Haikyu irritating. Luffy is also irritating. Midoriya from MHA is also annoying. Turns out most MCs are garbage as well. This is the MC curse, though. Someone will probs kill me for saying this. I see what they tried to do with Naruto...that whole Harry Potter angle...but in the end, Neiji was right. Genes and talent beat hard work. Naruto always had the right genes from his mom and dad, plus he had 9 tails chakra. He suddenly became the child of prophecy. Poor writing there. Naruto was supposed to be a character that people can relate to...Getting bullied and all that, and getting acknoledged... turns out Neiji was right all along. Genius wins....except for Neiji...here plot armour wins... Sorry I sidetracked.

Apr 8, 2022 12:49 PM

#65

A_G_N

Offline

Jun 2020

882

Schwarznight said:

A_G_N said:

Schwarznight said:

A_G_N said:

Schwarznight said:

A_G_N said:
Tsunade was fine dude? What are you talking about? I think that entire "kishimoto stating he doesn't know how to write females", is meant for a romantic scenario. People just took it like he doesn't know in general. There are some decent females in Naruto, it's not all bad.

But the female thing isn't exclusive to shonen. It's more of - anime in general has that in majority loads.

Infact shonen ones are probably better, just on the fact that they're more normal and less weebish compared to the weeb cutefest cringefest like Mai, Kaguya, Rem or whatever that gets to the top list of female slut list in MAL. Exceptions apply(like Mikasa, the hollywood version of "great female character")

Not saying shonen isn't bad now, but it's definitely better in comparison. In shonen, it's more like - if the females are braindead, then the males are too.

Females outside of shonen generally only are liked/loved because they were cute, sexy, devote their entire life to the mc(which the weebs would orgasm to, because they obviously self inserted)

Rarely will you find "character writing" to be the reason. And the characters like Emilia or Mai - where the author tries to bait with the "it's all about her writing", usually end up being done so badly. And the females end up having no standards.

The female hides behind the writing wall intially, when it actuality she is still there for the sole reason for the mc(and the weebs) to plunge their dick into.

It's astonishing how low it is, the number of females in anime that I respect enough to see that they have a character and a standard as a human being.

Tsunade was the worst hokage from Konoha, imo. This is one of my issues. She was much better than Sakura, but she was no Minato. Jiraiya was a much better character. When compared to the male counterparts, she was lacking. But Kishi, I guess, made up with her bust size. On paper she can punch strong. But let's face it. She is not even in the top 20 fighters. Kaguya was added at the end to give female characters more power...and also because Kishi wrote himself into a conrner by making Madara OP. She was an afterthought. Most of the female characters in Naruto are lacking. Tsunade was even directly related to the First Hokage. It would have have been better for a female to become Hokage without having such a connection.

Power isn't what makes a good character. And Hiruzen is the worst hokage from Konoha for a bunch of reasons.

Tsunade's arc started with her brother and lover dying and her getting PTSD to blood. Which would be rectified with Naruto coming in. Generally level headed she is, it was obvious Jiraiya and her had romantic tension but she didn't indulge until he was dead.

Another one of her loved ones died, but this time - without faltering she moved on to defend the village from pain, showing that she wouldn't go back the same PTSD state. She also had a psuedo mother/grandmother relationship with Naruto, where she does help him.

Naruto's bet with her, for Naruto to stay alive was pretty much the only time she "won" a bet. A decent female character is one with enough depth, standards, logic and smarts. The relationships she have with people also make her good.

So how strong they are is not what makes a good character, but all the depth, standards shit I said at top.

Yeah, but I didn't think she was that complex either. Hiruzen gave up his life when he went up against Orochimaru. I am comparing the best females with the best males in the show.

But those are excellent points. She did punch that rock thingy after Kakashi "died" and continued. Props to her.

The whole strength aspect fails, though. Kishi appears to have intentionally given Tsunade, and by extension Sakura, her protégé, super strength, to compensate and to break stereotypes. To show that women can be strong. A lot of it is artificial. Like Kaguya coming in as a powerful villainess. The fact remains that Tsunade was still weak despite Kishi intentionally trying to say "Look. Women can punch hard." Tsunade also did a lot of that lip biting, and she was intentionally sexualised.

But I agree, she is a character that had trauma.

Still think Jiraiya or Kakashi would have been better choices. She, imo, didn't earn her place. Kishi just wanted to create a female Hokage for Konoha, to make it seem "fair". Seems artificial.

Kaguya was just Shonen jump pushing Kishimoto so a plotline for the sequel could be had, for milking. So he created that entire thing in a short time anyway - Boruto, and that became trash so..

I mean, she did help defeat Hanzo and left the path of ninja after her close ones died right after. She became obsessed with gambling after that for coping I guess.

She did save the hokages after that Madara fight now, and during the pain fight, she was giving out medical attention to most people on the battle field, which is why they were alive.

Going by feats doesn't seem like a good choice to indicate her power. Cuz we know she's stronger than Kakashi. I think accomplishments is what you're asking.

Again, Jiraiya is who recommended her to be hokage in the first place. More because she is capable(but also bcz he didn't want to). For the sexualisation, I mean Jiraiya is her team mate, it was impossible. And the lip biting thing does when she is frustrated, and it's pretty rare. I never even viewed that as sexual lmao.

Kakashi wouldn't have worked. He was nowhere close to the strength he was at the end of shippuden. I mean he did become hokage at the end though.

But characters like Temari and Kushina did exist. Mei Terumi was also there, and we've seen she's also capable. I am only saying they're fine though, I can agree they're not close to Naruto or Itachi character writing.

I actually found Naruto as a character irritating. "Dattebayo!" and talk no jutsu. Lol. The same way I find the main guy from Haikyu irritating. Luffy is also irritating. Midoriya from MHA is also annoying. Turns out most MCs are garbage as well. This is the MC curse, though. Someone will probs kill me for saying this. I see what they tried to do with Naruto...that whole Harry Potter angle...but in the end, Neiji was right. Genes and talent beat hard work. Naruto always had the right genes from his mom and dad, plus he had 9 tails chakra. He suddenly became the child of prophecy. Poor writing there. Naruto was supposed to be a character that people can relate to...Getting bullied and all that, and getting acknoledged... turns out Neiji was right all along. Genius wins....except for Neiji...here plot armour wins... Sorry I sidetracked.

Oh yeah, all those stuff about Naruto is actually just theory. Everything from talk no jutsu to destiny fate, to pretty much everything you mentioned has been debunked to not actually be what the internet has said.

It'll be way too long to explain, but I'll suggest looking into it deeper. All of those theories were wrong

Apr 8, 2022 12:51 PM

#66

Schwarznight

Offline

Aug 2020

755

A_G_N said:

Schwarznight said:

A_G_N said:

Schwarznight said:

A_G_N said:

Schwarznight said:

A_G_N said:
Tsunade was fine dude? What are you talking about? I think that entire "kishimoto stating he doesn't know how to write females", is meant for a romantic scenario. People just took it like he doesn't know in general. There are some decent females in Naruto, it's not all bad.

But the female thing isn't exclusive to shonen. It's more of - anime in general has that in majority loads.

Infact shonen ones are probably better, just on the fact that they're more normal and less weebish compared to the weeb cutefest cringefest like Mai, Kaguya, Rem or whatever that gets to the top list of female slut list in MAL. Exceptions apply(like Mikasa, the hollywood version of "great female character")

Not saying shonen isn't bad now, but it's definitely better in comparison. In shonen, it's more like - if the females are braindead, then the males are too.

Females outside of shonen generally only are liked/loved because they were cute, sexy, devote their entire life to the mc(which the weebs would orgasm to, because they obviously self inserted)

Rarely will you find "character writing" to be the reason. And the characters like Emilia or Mai - where the author tries to bait with the "it's all about her writing", usually end up being done so badly. And the females end up having no standards.

The female hides behind the writing wall intially, when it actuality she is still there for the sole reason for the mc(and the weebs) to plunge their dick into.

It's astonishing how low it is, the number of females in anime that I respect enough to see that they have a character and a standard as a human being.

Tsunade was the worst hokage from Konoha, imo. This is one of my issues. She was much better than Sakura, but she was no Minato. Jiraiya was a much better character. When compared to the male counterparts, she was lacking. But Kishi, I guess, made up with her bust size. On paper she can punch strong. But let's face it. She is not even in the top 20 fighters. Kaguya was added at the end to give female characters more power...and also because Kishi wrote himself into a conrner by making Madara OP. She was an afterthought. Most of the female characters in Naruto are lacking. Tsunade was even directly related to the First Hokage. It would have have been better for a female to become Hokage without having such a connection.

Power isn't what makes a good character. And Hiruzen is the worst hokage from Konoha for a bunch of reasons.

Tsunade's arc started with her brother and lover dying and her getting PTSD to blood. Which would be rectified with Naruto coming in. Generally level headed she is, it was obvious Jiraiya and her had romantic tension but she didn't indulge until he was dead.

Another one of her loved ones died, but this time - without faltering she moved on to defend the village from pain, showing that she wouldn't go back the same PTSD state. She also had a psuedo mother/grandmother relationship with Naruto, where she does help him.

Naruto's bet with her, for Naruto to stay alive was pretty much the only time she "won" a bet. A decent female character is one with enough depth, standards, logic and smarts. The relationships she have with people also make her good.

So how strong they are is not what makes a good character, but all the depth, standards shit I said at top.

Yeah, but I didn't think she was that complex either. Hiruzen gave up his life when he went up against Orochimaru. I am comparing the best females with the best males in the show.

But those are excellent points. She did punch that rock thingy after Kakashi "died" and continued. Props to her.

The whole strength aspect fails, though. Kishi appears to have intentionally given Tsunade, and by extension Sakura, her protégé, super strength, to compensate and to break stereotypes. To show that women can be strong. A lot of it is artificial. Like Kaguya coming in as a powerful villainess. The fact remains that Tsunade was still weak despite Kishi intentionally trying to say "Look. Women can punch hard." Tsunade also did a lot of that lip biting, and she was intentionally sexualised.

But I agree, she is a character that had trauma.

Still think Jiraiya or Kakashi would have been better choices. She, imo, didn't earn her place. Kishi just wanted to create a female Hokage for Konoha, to make it seem "fair". Seems artificial.

Kaguya was just Shonen jump pushing Kishimoto so a plotline for the sequel could be had, for milking. So he created that entire thing in a short time anyway - Boruto, and that became trash so..

I mean, she did help defeat Hanzo and left the path of ninja after her close ones died right after. She became obsessed with gambling after that for coping I guess.

She did save the hokages after that Madara fight now, and during the pain fight, she was giving out medical attention to most people on the battle field, which is why they were alive.

Going by feats doesn't seem like a good choice to indicate her power. Cuz we know she's stronger than Kakashi. I think accomplishments is what you're asking.

Again, Jiraiya is who recommended her to be hokage in the first place. More because she is capable(but also bcz he didn't want to). For the sexualisation, I mean Jiraiya is her team mate, it was impossible. And the lip biting thing does when she is frustrated, and it's pretty rare. I never even viewed that as sexual lmao.

Kakashi wouldn't have worked. He was nowhere close to the strength he was at the end of shippuden. I mean he did become hokage at the end though.

But characters like Temari and Kushina did exist. Mei Terumi was also there, and we've seen she's also capable. I am only saying they're fine though, I can agree they're not close to Naruto or Itachi character writing.

I actually found Naruto as a character irritating. "Dattebayo!" and talk no jutsu. Lol. The same way I find the main guy from Haikyu irritating. Luffy is also irritating. Midoriya from MHA is also annoying. Turns out most MCs are garbage as well. This is the MC curse, though. Someone will probs kill me for saying this. I see what they tried to do with Naruto...that whole Harry Potter angle...but in the end, Neiji was right. Genes and talent beat hard work. Naruto always had the right genes from his mom and dad, plus he had 9 tails chakra. He suddenly became the child of prophecy. Poor writing there. Naruto was supposed to be a character that people can relate to...Getting bullied and all that, and getting acknoledged... turns out Neiji was right all along. Genius wins....except for Neiji...here plot armour wins... Sorry I sidetracked.

Oh yeah, all those stuff about Naruto is actually just theory. Everything from talk no jutsu to destiny fate, to pretty much everything you mentioned has been debunked to not actually be what the internet has said.

It'll be way too long to explain, but I'll suggest looking into it deeper. All of those theories were wrong

Okay...If you say sooo.. Take away the 9 tails, and Naruto would have lost to Rock Lee. 9 tails was his sharingan. Except, it was a power that was external.

Apr 8, 2022 12:57 PM

#67

JustN0tMe

Offline

Aug 2018

610

I don't know

I'm a huge fan of female characters, mostly because mangakas do a great job making them physically weak and mentally strong(and vise-versa), which is a great combination since they are(for the most part) supporting the main character.

Characters like Anna from Shaman King or Winry from FMAB are amazing at their job, they ground the MC and cover the MCs weaknesses(usually their mental size), usually they are great guides, which makes them amazing.
Characters like Sakura from Naruto aren't(although she's physically strong, she's not strong enough in comparison to the MCs), she's not a supportive character, for the most part(the opposite was true in some situations)

Seinen females tho!!
The stoic ones tho!!!

Jesus Christ...Usually they are badasses, physically capable(often the strongest) but mentally sensible(this is what makes them awesome).

They are constantly tested on their beliefs, morality and feelings and can't solve it with powerups or just by defeating the opponent...

I don't know, but one demographic seems to nail it everytime I read their stories

Apr 8, 2022 1:04 PM

#68

jal90

Offline

Oct 2010

11839

Look, here:

is where your thread belongs. Please pay more attention next time!

I watch movies/I write about movies (in Spanish)/I watch anime

Apr 8, 2022 1:31 PM

#69

HatsuneYugi39

Offline

Jan 2022

574

Nice creative and original topic op, definitely not a controversial topic I've seen brought up several times in the animanga community.

Apr 8, 2022 1:40 PM

#70

Slimsith

Offline

May 2021

1115

Schwarznight said:

Slimsith said:
Naruto? AoT? (Annie Leonhart is cool as fuck)

What about Black Lagoon and Re:Creators?

Whispered Words was alright for a girl anime, much better than Sailor Moon.

Maybe it's drugs or limited access to porn, who knows.

Annie is cool...except then you realize that she got rekt by cardboard Mikasa. The one thing Annie had was her combat skills, and even here she was bested by a less complex character. Eren uses her same technique later in combat. It's pitiful. Isayama butchered it.

Fuck Mikasa, she's a drone dude.

Annie is the shit, I love her comeback in the Final Season part 2.

As far as Naruto is concerned, your not wrong, but Tsunade was okay, I just didn't like sour milk bags she had for a chest.

She's a MILF, but the chest...

I struggled through Naruto, Shippuden was a little better.

Black Lagoon is the king of BBDBT anime.

Seriously though, writing a good female character has got to be a endeavor that's beyond me.

All I can contribute are my favorite female characters, I can't say they're well written or not, same with my favorite male characters.

I'm going to kindly back out of this thread now........

Apr 8, 2022 1:50 PM

#71

Slimsith

Offline

May 2021

1115

Zanfroni said:

Schwarznight said:

No. Stop assuming. That is just one aspect. Increase their power...in battle shounen...And add depth. Never mentioned Mary Sue

"Stop assuming", yet here's a quote from yourself located in this thread: "Yeah, Isayama must hate females. I am convinced.". Another user asked you to provide examples of what you consider to be well written shounen females, and you didn't provide any.

I'm convinced this thread is bait. I'm done.

Okay, maybe I asked an example of well written female characters.

Are the female characters in Black Lagoon, Jormungand, Parasyte the Maxim, Whispered Words and Re:Creators well written?

So I provided examples, because Naruto and SnK/AoT get clipped in the nuts and apparently have shitty female characters, I disagree because I believe Annie is the shit, but I have too many blondes as favorites.

Apr 8, 2022 1:50 PM

#72

Schwarznight

Offline

Aug 2020

755

JustN0tMe said:
I don't know

I'm a huge fan of female characters, mostly because mangakas do a great job making them physically weak and mentally strong(and vise-versa), which is a great combination since they are(for the most part) supporting the main character.

Characters like Anna from Shaman King or Winry from FMAB are amazing at their job, they ground the MC and cover the MCs weaknesses(usually their mental size), usually they are great guides, which makes them amazing.
Characters like Sakura from Naruto aren't(although she's physically strong, she's not strong enough in comparison to the MCs), she's not a supportive character, for the most part(the opposite was true in some situations)

Seinen females tho!!
The stoic ones tho!!!

Jesus Christ...Usually they are badasses, physically capable(often the strongest) but mentally sensible(this is what makes them awesome).

They are constantly tested on their beliefs, morality and feelings and can't solve it with powerups or just by defeating the opponent...

I don't know, but one demographic seems to nail it everytime I read their stories

Any good seinens with cool females that you'd recommend? Cheers.

Apr 8, 2022 1:55 PM

#73

Schwarznight

Offline

Aug 2020

755

Slimsith said:

Zanfroni said:

"Stop assuming", yet here's a quote from yourself located in this thread: "Yeah, Isayama must hate females. I am convinced.". Another user asked you to provide examples of what you consider to be well written shounen females, and you didn't provide any.

I'm convinced this thread is bait. I'm done.

Okay, maybe I asked an example of well written female characters.

Are the female characters in Black Lagoon, Jormungand, Parasyte the Maxim, Whispered Words and Re:Creators well written?

So I provided examples, because Naruto and SnK/AoT get clipped in the nuts and apparently have shitty female characters, I disagree because I believe Annie is the shit, but I have too many blondes as favorites.

Annie was cold. I agree. Potato girl was a decent comic relief...but it got boring after a while. Hange was okay. My fav female character in AoT was Annie as well. Can't forget what she did to my girl Petra, though, lol. Team Levi got done dirty.

Apr 8, 2022 1:57 PM

#74

Schwarznight

Offline

Aug 2020

755

jal90 said:
Look, here:

is where your thread belongs. Please pay more attention next time!

Do many people even use the blog function? Haven't seen much engagement on there. This works better.

Apr 8, 2022 2:11 PM

#75

JustN0tMe

Offline

Aug 2018

610

Schwarznight said:

JustN0tMe said:
I don't know

I'm a huge fan of female characters, mostly because mangakas do a great job making them physically weak and mentally strong(and vise-versa), which is a great combination since they are(for the most part) supporting the main character.

Characters like Anna from Shaman King or Winry from FMAB are amazing at their job, they ground the MC and cover the MCs weaknesses(usually their mental size), usually they are great guides, which makes them amazing.
Characters like Sakura from Naruto aren't(although she's physically strong, she's not strong enough in comparison to the MCs), she's not a supportive character, for the most part(the opposite was true in some situations)

Seinen females tho!!
The stoic ones tho!!!

Jesus Christ...Usually they are badasses, physically capable(often the strongest) but mentally sensible(this is what makes them awesome).

They are constantly tested on their beliefs, morality and feelings and can't solve it with powerups or just by defeating the opponent...

I don't know, but one demographic seems to nail it everytime I read their stories

Any good seinens with cool females that you'd recommend? Cheers.

Nice to see you again xD
I need you to tell me what you like (fast/slow pace, plot/character driven stories, etc...), the more details you give me the more specific I can be
Apparently you don't like theme driven stories(You gave Ergo Proxy a 4), so I won't even bother with those

Apr 8, 2022 2:20 PM

#76

FanofAction

Offline

Oct 2013

7859

And? Not every series needs to have strong female counterparts. Different types of shows have different priorities. Its like asking why so many female characters aren't that interesting in most western animated sitcoms. Its because the dumbass dads/male characters are the main focus of the comedy. Same kinda thing here. If the female characters aren't the main focus, they aren't going to get much effort put into them. I'm not saying this isn't lazy writing, and that these kinda things can't get tired and stale. I'm just saying its makes a lot sense to choose a main focus and stick to it. Not everything has to cater to everyone.

Apr 8, 2022 2:21 PM

#77

Schwarznight

Offline

Aug 2020

755

JustN0tMe said:

Schwarznight said:

Any good seinens with cool females that you'd recommend? Cheers.

Nice to see you again xD
I need you to tell me what you like (fast/slow pace, plot/character driven stories, etc...), the more details you give me the more specific I can be
Apparently you don't like theme driven stories(You gave Ergo Proxy a 4), so I won't even bother with those

Ergo Proxy just felt too depressing for some reason. I think it was the world and the color choice. Slow pace. I prefer stories with memorable characters. Characters matter to me more than visuals. I like conflict and growth. I also like anime that have strategies...or smart characters...Like The Promised Neverland ...Death Note... Cat and mouse games. The genre doesn't matter to me much. Mainly character and story. But I can also appreciate action, like the Rengoku movie from Kimetsu (even though Kimetsu has a weak story and generic characters).

Apr 8, 2022 2:25 PM

#78

Hoppy

Offline

Nov 2008

27806

Because guys want strong men and the ladies want hot guys, it's easier to tailor the male characters to suit both tastes in today's shounen.

Apr 8, 2022 2:45 PM

#79