TheBrainintheJar said: If you hold an opinion on something, it's because of some reasoning. It can be deep, and it can be shallow - 'the characters in this anime is sexy and I had a good time looking at it'. The 'it's all subjective' argument doesn't explain why you think a show is good or not, what is your reasoning behind it. Even in pure sensory information like the taste of food we go deeper. People don't eat Snickers because 'it's all subjective' but because of the sensation it causes. Second, art isn't just pretty but has style that expresses things. Many shows use the art to express the personality of these characters. Ask yourself: Would you love the same anime if it were all stickmen? Moreover, if visuals don't matter, why not read books instead? Well if you look around you might find I'm actually not trying to explain that this show is good and that is bad, what I'm saying, if you couldn't understand, is that every single person has a different stance on what is good or bad and this is why ""bad/good art" is a subjective concept" , now tell me again about that "sexy" character you enjoyed watching and I hated. Throw a tantrum if you want but you don't have a good enough argument to counter the fact that what's considered good or not is not for you to define Second, you don't answer my second question: how does the art change the story? you can't answer, can you? Because a good story is a good story regardless how ghastly the art may be. Art can express many things but so does the plot, dialogues, development and everything else an anime is composed of, it's not only art I hope you realise. Now to answer your question, I asked myself and after a heated discussion me, myself and I all agreed that 1. if anime "were all stickmen" it wouldn't be called anime anymore and 2. if the story is good we'd still watch it, nothing wrong with that, in it? And your other question is just stupid. I read books as well, not "instead" and not because visuals are irrelevant but because I enjoy it as a separate type of work @rsc-pl may be you're the one who's blind? Look at their eyes, they all look like flies with human bodies, it's just too creepy. Also all the characters are drawn disproportionately, big heads, short arms, sometimes longer, sometimes shorter legs, small faces, huge eyes, mouth is sometimes existent sometimes not, some characters even have antennae... which part of that is so great? I don't think you get to decide whether liking or disliking that art is retarded or not |
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Kuma said: character design is part of overall art representation from a series... but art is not only about character design... but still, character design is part of overall art in a series, so complain to character design is pretty much belong compalin to art as well... Well yeah but there's usually different people responsible for character designs and art design so idk how much you can judge one based on the other. I usually never mean the character designs when I say artstyle, because I use the term character designs instead to refer to them. Also saying 'art doesn't matter' doesn't mean people can't have opinions on art. It usually just means, that unlike tons of other people, for them art doesn't matter when it comes to picking up or dropping a show. They can still prefer one style over the other. Though I'd argue that calling something 'generic' doesn't even have to be a statement of preference, it's just an observation. I often call stuff generic without meaning it as a negative connotation, just as the absence of anything specific or unique elements that could actively appeal to me. I mean sure, 'art doesn't matter' is an exaggerated statement, but since it usually pops up in a context where people talk about avoiding or dropping or being 'unable to watch' whole shows or decades based on one screenshot, you gotte relativize it a bit. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| just focus on the sub. that's it. ..... |
The world is cruel, ugly and pitiful. Let's watch anime and make it colorful |
| Even if I like very much the "Never judge a book by his cover." message (as we can find it in Beauty & Beast), I tend to avoid shows with art style It doesn't appeal to me. For instance with western show, I miss very good shows (It makes me times to watch Gravity Falls) but, with experiences, It allows me to avoid somes with everything I can't stand by the art style (RWBY). Plus, It depends of the genre. If It's a light, slice of life, comedy show, I think I don't care about the style. But if It has actions, the art style (especially character design) must follow the mood of the situation for me. If the main characters must fight, they mustn't look like Kids-Bishonen-School students-Cute-Lolita-come from current Final Fantasy games. They must look like warriors, like if they survive many battles. (scars, muscles, armors,...). I simply cannot throw myself in the action show if all main characters look to come from a Pop Music Band. In fact, It drives me nuts. And I always find the foes have a better design. I mean between this anime.. And this....thing... I won't hesitate which one I won't watch... |
| @Kuma Different anime can share the same art style but have different character designs, and vice-versa. I'm currently watching Re: Cutie Honey, the art style is very close to FLCL, Killa la Kill or Panty & Stocking, but the character design is clearly Go Nagai's work. They're two different aspects that make up the bigger visual ensemble, but you can totally dig the art style and hate the character design of a show, there's no paradox IMO. >Le Imaishi art style  >Le Go Nagai character design  |
Prophetess of the Golden Era  |
| I think it's each to their own opinion on what art style is 'good', but if I really dislike the art then I just won't watch it, don't think that has happened before though |
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Pullman said: Kuma said: character design is part of overall art representation from a series... but art is not only about character design... but still, character design is part of overall art in a series, so complain to character design is pretty much belong compalin to art as well... Well yeah but there's usually different people responsible for character designs and art design so idk how much you can judge one based on the other. I usually never mean the character designs when I say artstyle, because I use the term character designs instead to refer to them. i don't reject there is distinction between character design and "art style", however, character design is still part of visual representation of art medium which pretty much still fall under "art"... again as i stated in another thread, i am myself even found expression is more important than character design... however i don't neglect the importancies of character design and they still does part of art visual representation of story telling... Pullman said: if you have opinion towards them, you still does care about them and you judge them, no matter how small it is... Also saying 'art doesn't matter' doesn't mean people can't have opinions on art. It usually just means, that unlike tons of other people, for them art doesn't matter when it comes to picking up or dropping a show. They can still prefer one style over the other. Pullman said: i'd agree on this if this apply on everyone, and even my self using this... too bad that's not the case... most people does using generic as negative conotation....Though I'd argue that calling something 'generic' doesn't even have to be a statement of preference, it's just an observation. I often call stuff generic without meaning it as a negative connotation, just as the absence of anything specific or unique elements that could actively appeal to me. Pullman said: I mean sure, 'art doesn't matter' is an exaggerated statement, but since it usually pops up in a context where people talk about avoiding or dropping or being 'unable to watch' whole shows or decades based on one screenshot, you gotte relativize it a bit. i am aware of that... however, that's what what lot of other people try to justify "visual doesn't metter" narative and negelcting the importance of visual in visual story telling, which i am strongly disagree.... that's a hypocrisy... @Clebardman look my answer above, i am not argue art is character design and they are same... however, character design still part of overall art.... complain about them is complain about "visual" representation of series which make them still does care about "visual/art" |
KumaJan 23, 2017 5:07 AM
 "If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| @Kuma woops, reading Pullman ranswer, I assumed you were talking about art style and not visuals as a whole. My bad. TBH I don't think many people completely dismiss visuals here. Even I am the first one to admit Utena isn't exactly pretty, tho that didn't prevent me from loving it. I'm more bothered by the amount of people who think "looking at the cover" is is the go-to way to find new shows :x. |
Prophetess of the Golden Era |
Clebardman said: @Kuma woops, reading Pullman ranswer, I assumed you were talking about art style and not visuals as a whole. My bad. TBH I don't think many people completely dismiss visuals here. Even I am the first one to admit Utena isn't exactly pretty, tho that didn't prevent me from loving it. I'm more bothered by the amount of people who think "looking at the cover" is is the go-to way to find new shows :x. that's why i said "screaming generic character design" which obviously from people like that which ironicaly lot of them usually coming from people also screaming "visual is less important that story"... this coming from my personal experience thou (well, i am original source reader after all, when a series i like that geting adaptation when they have "generic character design"... they always get prejudice by it visual and when i take a look at the poster on that, this oftenly the case)... so, that's why i said "usually" because i don't judge them as a whole (and i hope it does not happened as a whole).... |
KumaJan 23, 2017 5:21 AM
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
Kuma said: i am aware of that... however, that's what what lot of other people try to justify "visual doesn't metter" narative and negelcting the importance of visual in visual story telling, which i am strongly disagree.... that's a hypocrisy... The thing is that judging the visuals should be based on analyzing how well the style fits the show, why the author choose it, what he wanted to express and what he might have not cared as much for and how these choices affect the show. The upsides and downsides of a particular art style in a particular show or context. So 'art style doesn't matter' in itself, what matters is how it is implemented and used and for what purposes etc... Just like a timeskip or a flashback aren't good or bad by themselves, they need to be analyzed in context and elevating their importance even further to where they solely decide whether you consider something watchable or not, is questionable at best. That's how I usually interpret 'art doesn't matter', and that's how I personally mean it too. Hokuto ne Ken fails at being cute and Toradora fails at having details and looking gritty (I'm using the example from the other thread). But you don't need details in every context and you certainly don't need cuteness for every show so these attributes don't make any of the two better or worse, except under specific conditions. But when we apply to them to their respective shows both art styles are a pretty solid fit and I wouldn't really want them to change. I'd still prefer HnK art in a vacuum 10 out of 10 times but that doesn't mean that Toradora's art didn't do a perfect job of supporting the show or that I'd want to change the art of Toradora in any way. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Pullman said: Kuma said: i am aware of that... however, that's what what lot of other people try to justify "visual doesn't metter" narative and negelcting the importance of visual in visual story telling, which i am strongly disagree.... that's a hypocrisy... The thing is that judging the visuals should be based on analyzing how well the style fits the show, why the author choose it, what he wanted to express and what he might have not cared as much for and how these choices affect the show. The upsides and downsides of a particular art style in a particular show or context. So 'art style doesn't matter' in itself, what matters is how it is implemented and used and for what purposes etc... Just like a timeskip or a flashback aren't good or bad by themselves, they need to be analyzed in context and elevating their importance even further to where they solely decide whether you consider something watchable or not, is questionable at best. That's how I usually interpret 'art doesn't matter', and that's how I personally mean it too. Hokuto ne Ken fails at being cute and Toradora fails at having details and looking gritty (I'm using the example from the other thread). But you don't need details in every context and you certainly don't need cuteness for every show so these attributes don't make any of the two better or worse, except under specific conditions. But when we apply to them to their respective shows both art styles are a pretty solid fit and I wouldn't really want them to change. I'd still prefer HnK art in a vacuum 10 out of 10 times but that doesn't mean that Toradora's art didn't do a perfect job of supporting the show or that I'd want to change the art of Toradora in any way. then the visual does still matter and impactful thou what kind of impact is vary... but that's my point m8.... look my example in my replay on Clebardman post above... |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
Clebardman said: @Kuma woops, reading Pullman ranswer, I assumed you were talking about art style and not visuals as a whole. My bad. TBH I don't think many people completely dismiss visuals here. Even I am the first one to admit Utena isn't exactly pretty, tho that didn't prevent me from loving it. I'm more bothered by the amount of people who think "looking at the cover" is is the go-to way to find new shows :x. you don't think the cover tells a lot about a show? It doesn't even have to be the artstyle, but certain kinds of shows tend to have the same kind of cover pictures (for example 1 guy, 7 half naked girls around him -> not hard to see where this show is going) and shows whose cover pictures deviate from the usual patterns tend to instantly pick my interest and almost always end up having the more unique or interesting synopsis as well for my taste. Just looking at this season, these two covers immediately got my attention and now 3 weeks later after reading up on a lot of the shows this season they are still the two shows I'm looking forward to the most. I'm pretty confident in my cover-analyzing experiences for my own purposes :>. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
Pullman said: Clebardman said: @Kuma woops, reading Pullman ranswer, I assumed you were talking about art style and not visuals as a whole. My bad. TBH I don't think many people completely dismiss visuals here. Even I am the first one to admit Utena isn't exactly pretty, tho that didn't prevent me from loving it. I'm more bothered by the amount of people who think "looking at the cover" is is the go-to way to find new shows :x. you don't think the cover tells a lot about a show? It doesn't even have to be the artstyle, but certain kinds of shows tend to have the same kind of cover pictures (for example 1 guy, 7 half naked girls around him -> not hard to see where this show is going) and shows whose cover pictures deviate from the usual patterns tend to instantly pick my interest and almost always end up having the more unique or interesting synopsis as well for my taste. Just looking at this season, these two covers immediately got my attention and now 3 weeks later after reading up on a lot of the shows this season they are still the two shows I'm looking forward to the most. I'm pretty confident in my cover-analyzing experiences for my own purposes :>. well, judge this and this series then if you really that confidient... |
KumaJan 23, 2017 5:48 AM
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
conformist said: Pullman said: Trying to detach personal opinion completely misses the point of entertainment and art. Appreciating that it's a fitting choice needn't necessarily influence whether you actually like it or not.The thing is that judging the visuals should be based on analyzing how well the style fits the show, why the author choose it, what he wanted to express and what he might have not cared as much for and how these choices affect the show. The upsides and downsides of a particular art style in a particular show or context. That's not at all what I was saying, but good try. If you want Toradora to look like Hokuto no Ken and think that would make the show more enjoyable to you just because you like the art of Hokuto no Ken more in a vacuum, then yes, your point is valid. But I'd like to think noone is that stupid to actually argue that having a cute romance in HnK artstyle would improve the show and make it more enjoyable for anyone without turning it into a completely different (comedy) show. Or vice verse, having a bloody, apocalyptic battle shounen in a cutesy moe artstyle would not do it any favors. Also people like you always seem to imply that liking or not liking is a duality where if you like A you can't like B, but for me it's always been a matter of degrees. I like almost every art style in a way (because as I said, variety is what makes art so enjoyable to me, not fitting any imaginary ideals), which doesn't prevent me from still having favorites I like more than others. I also like it when the art fits the show, that makes it more enjoyable for me than blindly wanting to stick my favorite artstyle on any and every show. Is that so weird? My personal enjoyment is the basis for all my statements. Not limiting myself to being able to enjoy only one or two set artstyles and caring for the art to fit the show doesn't mean I'm detaching myself from personal opinion. I just tend to think my opinions and why I have them through, unlike most people. When someone 'hates' the cutesy artstyle because they disliked every show with it, then they probably just hate cutesy shows and since they tend to have cute art they mix up cause and effect. They might still very much enjoy an anime that uses the cutesy artstyle for a creepy, horror, psychological effect like Higurashi. But they'll never find out if they falsely think their preference is solely based on art style in a vacuum. That's why having biased opinions on art in a vacuum without context is stupid to me. But by all means I'm not preventing you from avoiding shows solely based on the art if that's your thing. Just consider whether it's maybe the type of show typically associated with an artstyle that you don't like, not the style itself. Kuma said: Pullman said: you don't think the cover tells a lot about a show? It doesn't even have to be the artstyle, but certain kinds of shows tend to have the same kind of cover pictures (for example 1 guy, 7 half naked girls around him -> not hard to see where this show is going) and shows whose cover pictures deviate from the usual patterns tend to instantly pick my interest and almost always end up having the more unique or interesting synopsis as well for my taste. Just looking at this season, these two covers immediately got my attention and now 3 weeks later after reading up on a lot of the shows this season they are still the two shows I'm looking forward to the most. I'm pretty confident in my cover-analyzing experiences for my own purposes :>. well, judge this and this series then if you really that confidient... Never said anything about manga and/or hentai :P. I never really browse either on MAL so I have no experience with them in that way. But what's not to get about Geiger Counter? How much creepier it is than your average rape doujin? I've read it ages ago so I can't really interpret the cover in an unbiased way, but oyu more or less get what you see. But generally, being able to come up with one or two exceptions after actively searching for them does not invalidate that my judgments have had positive results most of the time. They wouldn't be exceptions if there wasn't a rule from which they are exceptions. Sure, I've encountered series that I dismissed based on the cover and then later picked up and ended up loving. But any method that has a high enough success rate is valid even if there are exceptions. |
AlcoholicideJan 23, 2017 6:01 AM
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| Define horrible art style, because most anime look good. the only one that comes to mind is Kill la Kill, which was just horrible regardless of good or bad art. |
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| @Pullman Oh, I'm not saying covers are completely useless, and gives some hint on a show. I actually love picking up stuff by the cover, because I often like unconventionnal art styles, or just pretty stuff. But tbh even with the cover, premise and a bunch of reviews, you still get bad surprises. It's just that I feel most people who say thiswould ditch the anime you linked and flock to the shiny stuff. |
Prophetess of the Golden Era |
| If I don't like the art style I won't watch it. But I don't come across many shows with bad art style. Ping Pong was one that many people didn't like but I found the art style unique not ugly. Animation matters more to me. If it's slide show style animation I can't take that seriously (Shaft). |
| Well since i kinda dislike watching older animes I don't have that much problem with that.And if a start anime with horrible art style I either drop it or i manage to watch it somehow.I usually avoid animes like that to be honest:> |
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| i look to the story ,art doesn't matter sometimes , i mean look at " Kaiji " or H x H manga , and rethink if the art really matter /: |
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Clebardman said: @Pullman Oh, I'm not saying covers are completely useless, and gives some hint on a show. I actually love picking up stuff by the cover, because I often like unconventionnal art styles, or just pretty stuff. But tbh even with the cover, premise and a bunch of reviews, you still get bad surprises. It's just that I feel most people who say thiswould ditch the anime you linked and flock to the shiny stuff. I guess it's more useful for picking out shows that deviate from the norm than to pick the good shows within a popular genre or generic type of show. It can tell you a decent amount about the type of show it is but not so much about how it compares to similar shows. Which, for more unique shows is not that relevant, but for more popular categories it definitely is. I generally try to take in as little specific information as I can about shows before I watch them so I tend to ignore reviews and often even synopsis to some degree. And while there inevitably are the occasional disappointment (I was super hyped about Drifters but the OVA was kinda boring to me and I ended up not even watching the TV show, for a recent example), most of the time I'm hyping myself up for a show it ends up being to my liking at least to a certain degree, which outweighs the few disappointments. conformist said: Pullman said: I think you've misunderstood what I typed. I'm merely saying that excusing an art style that you don't like purely because it's a fitting choice is what I'd consider a completely wrong approach. I can acknowledge the merits Ping Pong's art style brought to the table but I sure as fuck wont delude myself into thinking I liked it. The same applies to using CGI to create jarring or seemingly otherworldly stuff. It's an interesting technique and achieves its purpose but ultimately it's ugly and I'd rather not see it. Inflating my opinion of the show just because it was effective in communicating the author's intent is superficial.But I'd like to think noone is that stupid to actually argue that having a cute romance in HnK artstyle would improve the show and make it more enjoyable for anyone without turning it into a completely different (comedy) show. Or vice verse, having a bloody, apocalyptic battle shounen in a cutesy moe artstyle would not do it any favors. If I ask myself 'would this show/scene be better with a different art style' and the answer is no, I can't deflate my opinion of a show just because the art that was actually used doesn't 100% fit my taste in a vacuum. If an 'improvement' in art would have made the scene/show worse in my opinion the current version is the best option and I'll judge it accordingly. In general I don't really perceive artstyles in a vacuum when it comes to anime, because they never exist in a vacuum, they always exist as a method, a tool of bringing across the story, they always exist in the context of a given show. An anime is a complex system of individual aspects inherently tied to each other and forcefully removing one of them and looking at it in a vacuum changes the whole nature of the judgment. That's why I find it meaningless to talk about art without context in a visual medium like anime. What matters is how much I appreciate and enjoy any given scene in its entirety, when changing the art into something more appealing to me in a vacuum would make the scene or show worse/less enjoyable how can I lower my opinion of the show for making the perfect choice for the given situation? That doesn't make any sense to me. Preferences aren't absolute and still depend on context so don't force yourself to stick with opinions that were formed in isolation once you put them into a more complex context. Pullman said: Also people like you always seem to imply that liking or not liking is a duality where if you like A you can't like B, but for me it's always been a matter of degrees. I like almost every art style in a way (because as I said, variety is what makes art so enjoyable to me, not fitting any imaginary ideals), which doesn't prevent me from still having favorites I like more than others. I also like it when the art fits the show, that makes it more enjoyable for me than blindly wanting to stick my favorite artstyle on any and every show. Is that so weird? My personal enjoyment is the basis for all my statements. Not limiting myself to being able to enjoy only one or two set artstyles and caring for the art to fit the show doesn't mean I'm detaching myself from personal opinion. I just tend to think my opinions and why I have them through, unlike most people. Not sure where I implied that. If you actually like the art style, that's fine - even if liking it purely comes from how unique it is. Honestly my post was a petty remark against the "should be". Not everyone can derive enjoyment from the intent behind things or the innovation and creativity it brings to the table. That being said, I think disliking the art style is but a minor inconvenience in the grand scheme of liking a show. A good show should be capable of affording enough tolerance to watch it. I didn't really express what I meant well, I meant you were implying that liking something is absolute and not completely (or at least largely) dependent on context, like it is for me. Pretty much what I talked about above. And the 'should be' wasn't meant to tell people what to do. I was implying that that's how it works for everyone (hence my example about someone not liking cutesy shows and blaming it on the artstyle instead of the nature of the show), just that not everyone is fully aware of it, but ideally they should be. As I said above, art styles in anime never exist in a vacuum and are always perceived in the context of show (and/or director, decade, genre etc..), and the same goes for liking or disliking them. People tell themselves differently, I'm well aware, but that doesn't make it true imo. It makes no sense to me logically speaking, as in I wouldn't even know how it would be possible to literally abtract an art style out of a show and judge it in a complete vacuum. Certain artstyles are tied to certain categories of shows and it's easy to identify shows by their art, not their nature/what they are trying to do, when in reality the art is just a symptom of their nature most of the time. If you don't like the core nature of a show at all, you'll automatically won't enjoy other aspects of that show no matter how good they are at supporting this kind of show. You might still enjoy those other aspects in a different context though, unless your brain turns dislike by association into dislike by default, making you avoid shows for the wrong reasons. P.S. Ping Pong Art is amazing :>. Probably because I value expressiveness more than technical perfection/photorealism. Art is all about expressing yourself to me, and simply trying to approach reality as much as possible (like the Makoto Shinkai backgrounds for example) has a very limited range of expressiveness because it is simply trying to approach one specific ideal. The sketchier, less focus on realism art becomes, the more options for being expressive it has, and the more I tend to value it, especially in the context of storytelling. Not that I don't appreciate realistic art with tons of details, it's just that I only really appreciate art like that from one perspective (the realism/details) while more expressive artstyles can be appreciated for 10 different reasons in 10 different scenes. Of course it's fair to care more for a halfway compromise between the two extremes of a Yuasa or Ohira one the one side and a Shinkai or Okiura on the other side. I'll just always lean more on the expressive than the technical side. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| I went to your elementary school and saw a horrible drawing that you made and reminded myself that nothing could be as bad as that thus I appreciate all art styles. |
SomeEdgeLord said: I WILL report you from this forum if this continues. In real life, I am one of the coldest, unsympathetic, people you'll ever know, who's grown up in an even colder household, you really don't want me to break my persona, I know how to make people feel bad. YearnsforAttention said: hm who has 1656 friends on MAL that's right me bye bye YearnsforAttention said: I don't want your approval how many damn times do I need to say it I enjoy irritating you I am gonna do things MY way |
| I DROP IT, I can never really try to force myself to watch horrible art even If the story is impressive but when your really back into a corner and just need to watch It just bare with it for a few more minutes I'm sure you'll get used to it. |
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Clebardman said: Jonouchi-Katsuya said: Revolutionary Girl Utena also stands out as a show with awful music. Whaaaaaaat? The music in Utena is definitely weird, but that's the first time I hear someone saying it's "awful". It usually gets a lot of praise. I dislike some tracks (the OP and ED, and the third arc's duel themes are not my cup of tea), but damn girl... *lights a joint* that's some catchy shit ;3 Noooooo!!!! Not the music!!!! lol. Seriously that music killed it for me! I feel like that song playing over and over with the repeat animation of her going up the spiral the the rose every time. oh goodness... it hurt me. It was an assault to my senses. I feel so bad about hating it because by all accounts I feel I should have loved it on paper. On paper it was, a beautiful anime. I feel as if I was unfairly judgmental because the music hurt me. And I like a lot of cringey music too. But yeah when I don't like a song and then it plays every time mid anime and not beginning theme like Utena. There is just no digging itself out of the bad anime bin. What is extra hilarious: Good theme song? I tend to continue the anime even if I hate it. Bad theme song but anime is good? I tend to be unmotivated to finish it. Parasyte took forever to finish because of it's horrible theme. I for some reason keep watching Flame of Recca even though it isn't such a good anime because the theme song is so great. I haven't gone back to it in a while because well I was watching a lot of new stuff but seriously I marathoned 20 episodes because good theme song of an anime I think is mediocre... should say a lot. |
Energetic-NovaJan 23, 2017 12:19 PM
The anime community in a nutshell.  |
| I'll still watch those series if the art isn't up to snuff if the series is at least interesting and entertaining, of course. Hell, I even watched an episode of Doraemon! It was kinda funny too! |
| does anime really have horrible art style now????? |
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Pullman said: Never said anything about manga and/or hentai :P. I never really browse either on MAL so I have no experience with them in that way. But what's not to get about Geiger Counter? How much creepier it is than your average rape doujin? I've read it ages ago so I can't really interpret the cover in an unbiased way, but oyu more or less get what you see. But generally, being able to come up with one or two exceptions after actively searching for them does not invalidate that my judgments have had positive results most of the time. They wouldn't be exceptions if there wasn't a rule from which they are exceptions. Sure, I've encountered series that I dismissed based on the cover and then later picked up and ended up loving. But any method that has a high enough success rate is valid even if there are exceptions. it's faar creapier in a different sanse... but you still does judge them by visual right? it visual does left you impression which proof you does still care about overall art right? that's my point in here... i don't argue what kind of art, or how important it is... but it does have impact on viewer like it or not... neglecting it is naive... |
"If taking responsibility for a mistake that cannot be undone means death, it's not that hard to die. At least, not as hard as to live on." |
| I just don't. Visuals are just as important as story to me. |
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| berserk 2016 OMG Jesus Christ....... |
lequack said: While I watch anime with very different art styles (two such anime - ping pong and kuchuu buranko are in my favorites) I hate it when the body proportions of anime characters are strangely animated. I dropped code geass for this reason. The characters are too thin and their arms/legs are too long. OMG as much as I love Code Geass... That totally killed me too! |
Enjyu said: TheBrainintheJar said: If you hold an opinion on something, it's because of some reasoning. It can be deep, and it can be shallow - 'the characters in this anime is sexy and I had a good time looking at it'. The 'it's all subjective' argument doesn't explain why you think a show is good or not, what is your reasoning behind it. Even in pure sensory information like the taste of food we go deeper. People don't eat Snickers because 'it's all subjective' but because of the sensation it causes. Second, art isn't just pretty but has style that expresses things. Many shows use the art to express the personality of these characters. Ask yourself: Would you love the same anime if it were all stickmen? Moreover, if visuals don't matter, why not read books instead? Well if you look around you might find I'm actually not trying to explain that this show is good and that is bad, what I'm saying, if you couldn't understand, is that every single person has a different stance on what is good or bad and this is why ""bad/good art" is a subjective concept" , now tell me again about that "sexy" character you enjoyed watching and I hated. Throw a tantrum if you want but you don't have a good enough argument to counter the fact that what's considered good or not is not for you to define Second, you don't answer my second question: how does the art change the story? you can't answer, can you? Because a good story is a good story regardless how ghastly the art may be. Art can express many things but so does the plot, dialogues, development and everything else an anime is composed of, it's not only art I hope you realise. Now to answer your question, I asked myself and after a heated discussion me, myself and I all agreed that 1. if anime "were all stickmen" it wouldn't be called anime anymore and 2. if the story is good we'd still watch it, nothing wrong with that, in it? And your other question is just stupid. I read books as well, not "instead" and not because visuals are irrelevant but because I enjoy it as a separate type of work @rsc-pl may be you're the one who's blind? Look at their eyes, they all look like flies with human bodies, it's just too creepy. Also all the characters are drawn disproportionately, big heads, short arms, sometimes longer, sometimes shorter legs, small faces, huge eyes, mouth is sometimes existent sometimes not, some characters even have antennae... which part of that is so great? I don't think you get to decide whether liking or disliking that art is retarded or not I don't think good/bad in art are objective. So, you wouldn't mind if all the characters looked the same? [quote=LordLagann message=49419551] TheBrainintheJar said: Every intelligent person knows it's subjective. Saying it does nothing but waste your time and show you're afraid your opinion might be changed. The story of NHK IS fantastic and wacky - since we have conflicts solved in a single episode without build-up, hikkies who don't know porn exists and characters who are angels. You say subjectivity is, and I quote, "never, ever an argument", then proceed to state how a character is drawn directly affects your interpretation of the story....? Clearly an argument can be made from subjectivity when you yourself claim that your personal view changes depending on whichever particular art styles is present. Their lack of vocabulary or understanding is irrelevant and it stands that they are technically correct when they say it's subjective. It may not be an argument, they might not even be trying to argue, but whether you find these people so pitiful you need to descend from your throne and grace them with unlimited knowledge is your prerogative. I'm just here to point out that's stupid if you haven't figured that out already. Your interpretation of NHK, and I use that word loosely because sarcasm is hard to detect online, is of a hikki NEET who meets an angle, discovers porn, and solves all his life's struggles in the total span of three episodes. If yes, haha; good one. If not, I question whether you've actually seen and or understood NHK in it's entirety.[/quote Just because it's subjective doesn't mean we can't explain it. We can explain why the deep seas are better for the squids to live in than a house. Yes, this is my subjective view of NHK. It has a basis. You're welcome to argue with it. |
TheBrainintheJarJan 24, 2017 7:27 AM
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
Now you're not making sense but for once I actually agree with you, good/bad art is not objective, which is believe it or not, exactly what I have been saying from the beginning and you have been trying to prove me wrong........ And your next question is rather controversial as some of your previous statements so I figured you might be mixing objective with subjective so I will leave this definition for you to fix up the confusion "Objective is a statement that is completely unbiased. It is not touched by the speaker’s previous experiences or tastes. It is verifiable by looking up facts or performing mathematical calculations. Subjective is a statement that has been colored by the character of the speaker or writer. It often has a basis in reality, but reflects the perspective through with the speaker views reality. It cannot be verified using concrete facts and figures" Quoted from www.differencebetween.net Besides doesn't the majority of animes already look the same? If not the same painfully similar... Generic anime boys and generic anime girls What is there for me to complain at this point? Even the plots of so many are similar... I can be critical and dislike certain art to my heart's content but that will hardly change anything, mostly my mood and enjoyment level. So would I mind if all anime looks the same, I'll go back to my original point, if the story is engaging and worth it, no I wouldn't mind at all if all anime looked the same or be all stickmen or whatever, it doesn't matter as long as I enjoy the plot... |
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TheBrainintheJar said: Just because it's subjective doesn't mean we can't explain it. We can explain why the deep seas are better for the squids to live in than a house. Yes, this is my subjective view of NHK. It has a basis. You're welcome to argue with it. Not saying you can't explain it. I'm saying not everyone can, should, nor is obliged to. I'm not sure that qualifies as a subjective if you literally think Misaki is an angel, Saito has never heard of porn, or that story arcs don't span several episodes. I assure you that's just plain misinformation as all of those things have a concrete basis in the plot that aren't up for debate. I.E Misaki is defiantly not an angle. |
abelkoontz said: Art style meaning the way the characters are drawn -- The amount of times i get recommended to watch Clannad + Clannad AS, I really CAN'T do it. It sounds so amazing and I did try to put myself through it once but I couldn't get pass 3 minutes without cringing and dying at the characters' appearance. I can't take the exaggerated features and the hair and the "kawaii-ness", especially when they are meant to be 16 or whatever but look 10 years old. I'd rather have them look 30 instead. How do people watch anime like this?! I'm the same. I even have the this problem with manga and graphic novels. If the art isn't aesthetically pleasing I just can't escape in the story. |
LordLagann said: TheBrainintheJar said: Just because it's subjective doesn't mean we can't explain it. We can explain why the deep seas are better for the squids to live in than a house. Yes, this is my subjective view of NHK. It has a basis. You're welcome to argue with it. Not saying you can't explain it. I'm saying not everyone can, should, nor is obliged to. I'm not sure that qualifies as a subjective if you literally think Misaki is an angel, Saito has never heard of porn, or that story arcs don't span several episodes. I assure you that's just plain misinformation as all of those things have a concrete basis in the plot that aren't up for debate. I.E Misaki is defiantly not an angle. Misaki comes out of nowhere to help Satou. This, in itself, is a fantastic idea. Satou expressed shock when he saw the collection of half-nude pictures in his friend's house. The main conflict - stopping being a hikkie - is solved two times by two characters. In one instance, they become hungry, need money and magically stop being a hikkie. The other instance includes "DON'T KILL YOURSELF!". We don't see the development. Enjyu said: Now you're not making sense but for once I actually agree with you, good/bad art is not objective, which is believe it or not, exactly what I have been saying from the beginning and you have been trying to prove me wrong........ And your next question is rather controversial as some of your previous statements so I figured you might be mixing objective with subjective so I will leave this definition for you to fix up the confusion "Objective is a statement that is completely unbiased. It is not touched by the speaker’s previous experiences or tastes. It is verifiable by looking up facts or performing mathematical calculations. Subjective is a statement that has been colored by the character of the speaker or writer. It often has a basis in reality, but reflects the perspective through with the speaker views reality. It cannot be verified using concrete facts and figures" Quoted from www.differencebetween.net Besides doesn't the majority of animes already look the same? If not the same painfully similar... Generic anime boys and generic anime girls What is there for me to complain at this point? Even the plots of so many are similar... I can be critical and dislike certain art to my heart's content but that will hardly change anything, mostly my mood and enjoyment level. So would I mind if all anime looks the same, I'll go back to my original point, if the story is engaging and worth it, no I wouldn't mind at all if all anime looked the same or be all stickmen or whatever, it doesn't matter as long as I enjoy the plot... Why do you watch anime, then? It's a visual medium that uses visuals to tell the story. What do you prefer? To see a fight, or to read a description of a fight? |
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
You're completely missing the point~ I can enjoy an anime even if the art is nor particularly good, on the condition the story is good. Besides visuals is not the only thing an anime is comprised of, there's plot, soundtrack, dialogues, development, flow and much more than just moving pictures so I don't see why I should cling onto 1 of these to determine whether I like the final product or not I enjoy books, manga anime, light novels etc, all in a different way, so I can't say I prefer a book over anime or manga over books, what I can say is I prefer this manga over that manga Seriously why don't you give it just 1 chance? How about this, do you wanna have a small challenge to get each others point across? Even if it doesn't work out well I reckon in the very least it might be fun and we could both learn of the others standpoint. What do you say? |
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| If the anime has a great storyline i don't really care tbh. besides you'll get used to it once you try so try lasting more than 3 min ok ==" If you stick to animes with Great animation and modern art styles your missing out on LOTS of legendary anime... Just saying. |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
| If the art style is bad I might drop it if plot/characters can't make up for it. (Also music is important.) Art is more important than animation. I know there are some "animation fetishists" that prefer ugly stuff with tons of animation - but I don't like it. Better super good art with less animation. (Music is more important to help creating atmosphere. And a good voice acting.) Stuff like Panty & Stocking ... can't stand that art and char design. Also the ugly looking chars from pictures I have seen of Little Witch Academia (which is supposed to have good animation but the art is not too my taste) scared me away but atm I consider giving the movies a try. |
TheBrainintheJar said: Misaki comes out of nowhere to help Satou. This, in itself, is a fantastic idea. Satou expressed shock when he saw the collection of half-nude pictures in his friend's house. The main conflict - stopping being a hikkie - is solved two times by two characters. In one instance, they become hungry, need money and magically stop being a hikkie. The other instance includes "DON'T KILL YOURSELF!". We don't see the development. You really haven't seen it have you? Misaki wasn't helping Satou she was helping herself. It wasn't coincidental, out of good will, nor fantastic as both their life begins to spiral even further. You're confusing the manic pixie dream girl as a theme and in reality the show is subverting it. It's far from fantastic as a theme and even further so as a trope. It's fantastic how the NHK deconstructs story elements, but the story itself makes it clear that there's nothing fantastic to behold once everything is said and done. Satou wasn't taken back by the discovery of porn, it was because the amount in front of him and how readily available it was. If anything he discovers online porn (soft core from what is shown) and is in awe at how much there is. There's this new thing called being a protagonist, where we as the audience follow their story. Satou's dilemma is being a hikikomori. Not is neighbor, not his senior, and not his gamer friend. They have their own problems in which the story address adequately and all of which relate to an overarching theme of fear and self doubt. Their emotional and mental anchors can't be lifted in a fortnight, or perhaps ever. There is why there is no resolution for any of them because that's the moral of the show; moving forward. Not the quest for curing hikikomori's. You're welcome to your opinion of NHK, as wildly mistaken as it is, but don't try to hide under the guise of subjectivity when you haven't put in the bare minimum in trying to grasp a deeper understanding. You've forfeit any stance of subjectivity when you've taken everything at face value and spread misinformation. You need to brush up on nuisance because clearly you're not just missing out in NHK but probably a majority of things you consume. |
LordLagann said: You're welcome to your opinion of NHK, as wildly mistaken as it is, but don't try to hide under the guise of subjectivity when you haven't put in the bare minimum in trying to grasp a deeper understanding. You've forfeit any stance of subjectivity when you've taken everything at face value and spread misinformation. You need to brush up on nuisance because clearly you're not just missing out in NHK but probably a majority of things you consume. You hit the nail on the head. You should see him talk about Ping Pong. You wouldn't believe he's actually seen the show either. He tends to focus on one tiny thing that isn't necessarily true, draw all the wrong conclusions from it and twist factt to support those, ignore contrary evidence and interpretations and proudly mention at every opportunity how his opinion differs from the consensus regarding these shows (which isn't hard if you don't care about making a whole lot of sense). Often without anyone asking. I'm pretty sure he just enjoys having a 'different' opinion on some critically acclaimed shows and that's why he doesn't even "put in the bare minimum in trying to grasp a deeper understanding" as you put it. In NHK he sees it all as fun and games with the goal of pointing the finger at Hikkies and laugh at them instead of seriously dealing with the topic, and can't perceive the depressing reality of the situation and characters because the show doesn't shove it down his throat and instead hides it behind a comedic approach mot of the time (just like severely depressed people often hide behind 'fun' personalities). And in Pong Pong somehow Smile being depressed makes the whole show unrealistic garbage because depressed people can't do anything ever, especially not be successful at something (Yeah right, successful people with depression don't exist.). He's ignored people with experience with depression telling him otherwise in the past. He knows better. You can try to argue, but don't expect to ever make him budge on the results of his expert analysis. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
| If it's a character design I don't particularly like, I just get used to it. |
on 
| Well there are a couple shows which kind of make my eyes bleed with how they look (JK Meshi and God Eater come to mind). Still that alone would never be enough to make me give up on a show. Generally speaking art is one of the least important categories of an anime, at least outside of moe, ecchi and hentai |
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LordLagann said: TheBrainintheJar said: Misaki comes out of nowhere to help Satou. This, in itself, is a fantastic idea. Satou expressed shock when he saw the collection of half-nude pictures in his friend's house. The main conflict - stopping being a hikkie - is solved two times by two characters. In one instance, they become hungry, need money and magically stop being a hikkie. The other instance includes "DON'T KILL YOURSELF!". We don't see the development. You really haven't seen it have you? Misaki wasn't helping Satou she was helping herself. It wasn't coincidental, out of good will, nor fantastic as both their life begins to spiral even further. You're confusing the manic pixie dream girl as a theme and in reality the show is subverting it. It's far from fantastic as a theme and even further so as a trope. It's fantastic how the NHK deconstructs story elements, but the story itself makes it clear that there's nothing fantastic to behold once everything is said and done. Satou wasn't taken back by the discovery of porn, it was because the amount in front of him and how readily available it was. If anything he discovers online porn (soft core from what is shown) and is in awe at how much there is. There's this new thing called being a protagonist, where we as the audience follow their story. Satou's dilemma is being a hikikomori. Not is neighbor, not his senior, and not his gamer friend. They have their own problems in which the story address adequately and all of which relate to an overarching theme of fear and self doubt. Their emotional and mental anchors can't be lifted in a fortnight, or perhaps ever. There is why there is no resolution for any of them because that's the moral of the show; moving forward. Not the quest for curing hikikomori's. You're welcome to your opinion of NHK, as wildly mistaken as it is, but don't try to hide under the guise of subjectivity when you haven't put in the bare minimum in trying to grasp a deeper understanding. You've forfeit any stance of subjectivity when you've taken everything at face value and spread misinformation. You need to brush up on nuisance because clearly you're not just missing out in NHK but probably a majority of things you consume. Misaki drops suddenly out of nowhere on the protagonist and remains there even while he hurts her and does nothing. Does it happen often that out of nowhere, people want to help you for no apparent reason? I find it odd that a hikkie wouldn't know such abundance of porn exists. What he did all this time? NHK isn't a 'deconstruction', its message is that of conformity - of a pleasant, nice society out there that we need to merge with it. Something more subversive wouldn't be so black-and-white. Satou's arc is resolved in the last or second-last episode, and it has little to do with what comes before. It only takes Misaki's little tragedy to change him. Call me mistaken all you want, but focus on the argument. I wrote a detailed review of NHK and its problems, its fantastical nature, convenient plot and lack of psychology. For someone who shuts himself in, Satou often handles social situations well until comes the time to scream for comic effects. Enjyu said: You're completely missing the point~ I can enjoy an anime even if the art is nor particularly good, on the condition the story is good. Besides visuals is not the only thing an anime is comprised of, there's plot, soundtrack, dialogues, development, flow and much more than just moving pictures so I don't see why I should cling onto 1 of these to determine whether I like the final product or not I enjoy books, manga anime, light novels etc, all in a different way, so I can't say I prefer a book over anime or manga over books, what I can say is I prefer this manga over that manga Seriously why don't you give it just 1 chance? How about this, do you wanna have a small challenge to get each others point across? Even if it doesn't work out well I reckon in the very least it might be fun and we could both learn of the others standpoint. What do you say? I just find it difficult to understand how visuals don't matter in a story told by visuals. The experience - physically - is different. Even listening to music on headphones and on speakers is different. So the switch from prose to visuals is critical. Look how vastly the stories are between acclaimed novels and acclaimed movies. You don't get an introspective movie like Catcher in the Rye. |
TheBrainintheJarJan 26, 2017 7:35 AM
| WEAPONS - My blog, for reviews of music, anime, books, and other things |
It doesn't seem like you're trying too hard to understand, since I've been trying to explain the same thing in different ways. Nothing wrong with that of course, I suppose arguing for the sake of the discussion is also a valid point I'd appreciate more bad/bizarre art anime with a good plot than a good art anime with a dull/average/bad plot. That's all there is to it I take it you don't accept the challenge and will leave it at that since this is getting nowhere |
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| artstyle is the first thing i see before starting to watch anime. if it's not appeal to my eyes, then i wont watch it. eventhough they rated 8.5+ on MAL rating |
TheBrainintheJar said: Misaki drops suddenly out of nowhere on the protagonist and remains there even while he hurts her and does nothing. Does it happen often that out of nowhere, people want to help you for no apparent reason? I find it odd that a hikkie wouldn't know such abundance of porn exists. What he did all this time? NHK isn't a 'deconstruction', its message is that of conformity - of a pleasant, nice society out there that we need to merge with it. Something more subversive wouldn't be so black-and-white. Satou's arc is resolved in the last or second-last episode, and it has little to do with what comes before. It only takes Misaki's little tragedy to change him. Call me mistaken all you want, but focus on the argument. I wrote a detailed review of NHK and its problems, its fantastical nature, convenient plot and lack of psychology. For someone who shuts himself in, Satou often handles social situations well until comes the time to scream for comic effects. I told you already, her role in his life isn't coincidental nor is it out of good will towards.....what the fuck? Are you even reading anything? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and agree that she did "drop into his life" as you're so adamantly incline to believe. In your strange little world any act of coincidence equates to the story being fantastic? I guess two strangers meeting is off limits now unless you want your story...oh wait. Every story must be fantastic now because there's no such thing as a plot involving one fucking person. It doesn't matter what you find odd, even though it's clear as day that Satou doesn't even use his computer until he is forced to help create a gal game with his neighbor, because the facts doesn't care about your widely mistaken opinions. If you think NHK is about conformity, EVEN THOUGH FROM BEGINNING, MIDDLE, AND END EVERY CHARACTER FINDS THEIR OWN UNIQUE PATH TO FOLLOW, then there is no need to continue this. I mean honestly, you think Satou's dilemma is resolve because of superficial and cosmetic changes in his life. Next you're gonna tell me the answer to depression is a new haircut and the tickle monster. There's so many things you've gotten wrong it's astonishing. The mere fact that you think she wants to help Satou for "no reason" defies belief. This isn't an argument nor is it a subjective view on NHK. You are literally ass pulling misinformation out of thin air. Just look at what you wrote... TheBrainintheJar said: Satou often handles social situations well until comes the time to scream for comic effects. In the very first fucking episode he can't even finish a conversation with his landlord without his anxiety going bonkers. I mean you talk about how I'm afraid of my opinion being changed yet your here spewing bullshit and turning a blind eye to concrete plot and character points. You can be descriptive and detailed as you want but it won't mean lick as you've missed the point of NHK completely to an extent that you've might as well not have seen it. Do yourself a favor and next time just stop replying when it's obvious you have no clue what you're talking about. I see though you, Pullman sees through you, and I'm sure many others do as well. Pullman said: You hit the nail on the head. You should see him talk about Ping Pong. You wouldn't believe he's actually seen the show either. Thanks Pullman. I rather not look at what he thinks about Ping Pong because if he's gotten this much wrong about NHK, a show over a decade old, lord knows Ping Pong might as well be an alien soap opera to him. |
LordLagannJan 27, 2017 2:29 AM
| I get over it, bad animation bothers me more than ugly art style |
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| I put story and humor above art style and don't put much thought into it. But there are anime like bokura ga ita which has terrible art style but the story lets me see pass that. |
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