inklingboi08 said: thats ok, better than if he was living out his fantasy irl. Let Kutuya existand is living out their fantasy through the consumption of hentai |
 |
ame said: what are your thoughts on anime tourists ? Do these people not appreciate animation from an artist's point of view, or even from a fandom point of view. What about animation in general as a scholarly point of view? That's what sometime frustrate me about anime fandom whether they're tourist, elitists, people who harbor racist views (yes, it's not crazy for a anime fan who is a white person who think Koreans and Chinese are inferior to Japanese and somehow are OK with Japanese being racist toward white people), and I encounter weird anime fans on MAL that baffle my mind. 09philj said: MAL is full of people who have apparently watched immense amounts of anime yet retain primary school levels of textual comprehension, and it's usually those people whining about tourists as if having blankly stared at a screen for several hundred or thousand hours is the yardstick for having an insightful, valid opinion. Elitists exist everywhere no matter what fandom or what forum it's on. I know this from many years of experience being in the fandom. There are fans on MAL that are like very toxic hence why some MAL users don't like to go to this forum, or they left MAL to joined Anilist. But look, elitism, and warped view in and on anime/manga are to be expected. |
Reply to removed-user
@thewiru
Okay then, lay it on me. What exactly about otaku culture/sub-culture is preventing people like myself from liking, say, Jobless Reincarnation?
The way I see, terms like "normie" and "tourist" are used not to address criticism so much as to dismiss it. You can gesture vaguely and say "well, then you do not understad otaku subculture", but no one every specifies what about language, conventions, and so forth are preventing me from appreciating these supposed masterpieces. They simply say "well, you do not understand the culture" without specifying what about the culture I do not understand. That it is normal for you guys? To me, this imvokes a sort of social relativism, fish swimming in water. You become accustomed to what I happen to think are low quality or juvenile work or to highly specific tropes that to a vast majority of the population is just plain weird.
Yes, I understand you find it normal, but that does not make it beyond reproach. So what is wrong with acknowledging what we watch is a bit weird if not objectionable, or saying that maybe what we watch is not really art but MCU-tier entertainment? I see nothing wrong with that.
Let me explain my experiences with the anime fandom here.
Fans of these works refuse to acknowledge just how weird their work is in the greater culture, and how normalized it is within our respective niches. To me, that is not a good enough excuse that really addresses most criticisms. So we have a protaganist like Rudeus from Jobless Reincarnation or Mya-nee from Wataten, and the anime becomes intolerable to a certain segment of the audience because these characters are seriously flawed. That's the other sides argument. Where does culture come in, then? The fact that these tropes are normalized within their respective fandoms? Whose to say we have not normalized just bad, irritating, writing?
Those feeling the need to defend the work often characterize all criticisms as being undue, "foreign" impositions, rather than opinions, as if critiquing a piece of work is tantamount to saying it should not exist. Which cultural standards are you referring to? So far, no one here has given me any, just gesture to the existence of cultural standards they assume exist but never specify which ones. You cannot just vaguely gesture to a reason without expounding on it.
Am I wrong here, to say that when you ask us to understand Otaku subbculture, that you are gesturing to the only vaguest hints of of some hitherto cultural trivia that you yourselves cannot put to words not least because you do not even know what it is? Because I am curious as to what arguments you have that are not simply accusing critics like myself as attacking free speech. To me, it seems like you are parroting bullshit that you haven't really thought about.
In my experience, most people here are arguing on behalf of these works because they are normalized within these niche groups, but that seems all the more reason to have those outside the group voice their opinions on said media, because what you consider a subculture I consider an "echo chamber" on a few series. Maybe what you are watching is just weird and or poorly written, and that most of what all of you are interested in are things that are weird and poorly written. Not that I think having bad taste is bad, but maybe you just normalized garbage, and defend it because you take criticisms too seriously.
Can we not just disagree on a matter of taste instead of trying to undermine each other's positions?
I very rarely have been given the same sort of argument I gave for Oldboy (2003), which I think is a good example of explaining how a cultural standard is featured in a given work.
I am tired of this vague, "you do not get it because you do not watch enough anime" bullshit that is mindlessly parroted here. I am not the smartest or most aware person in the room, but we ought to stop and think about what we are saying, and ask ourselves if we even understand what it is coming out of our mouths.
If a person said that a theater play was bad by cinema metrics, we would say that person is silly.
The same applies here: In order to fully and fairly judge anime, one must understand it's language, conventions and what it is trying to do, and usually the best way to do that is by watching a lot of anime.
The same applies here: In order to fully and fairly judge anime, one must understand it's language, conventions and what it is trying to do, and usually the best way to do that is by watching a lot of anime.
Okay then, lay it on me. What exactly about otaku culture/sub-culture is preventing people like myself from liking, say, Jobless Reincarnation?
The way I see, terms like "normie" and "tourist" are used not to address criticism so much as to dismiss it. You can gesture vaguely and say "well, then you do not understad otaku subculture", but no one every specifies what about language, conventions, and so forth are preventing me from appreciating these supposed masterpieces. They simply say "well, you do not understand the culture" without specifying what about the culture I do not understand. That it is normal for you guys? To me, this imvokes a sort of social relativism, fish swimming in water. You become accustomed to what I happen to think are low quality or juvenile work or to highly specific tropes that to a vast majority of the population is just plain weird.
Yes, I understand you find it normal, but that does not make it beyond reproach. So what is wrong with acknowledging what we watch is a bit weird if not objectionable, or saying that maybe what we watch is not really art but MCU-tier entertainment? I see nothing wrong with that.
Let me explain my experiences with the anime fandom here.
Fans of these works refuse to acknowledge just how weird their work is in the greater culture, and how normalized it is within our respective niches. To me, that is not a good enough excuse that really addresses most criticisms. So we have a protaganist like Rudeus from Jobless Reincarnation or Mya-nee from Wataten, and the anime becomes intolerable to a certain segment of the audience because these characters are seriously flawed. That's the other sides argument. Where does culture come in, then? The fact that these tropes are normalized within their respective fandoms? Whose to say we have not normalized just bad, irritating, writing?
Those feeling the need to defend the work often characterize all criticisms as being undue, "foreign" impositions, rather than opinions, as if critiquing a piece of work is tantamount to saying it should not exist. Which cultural standards are you referring to? So far, no one here has given me any, just gesture to the existence of cultural standards they assume exist but never specify which ones. You cannot just vaguely gesture to a reason without expounding on it.
Am I wrong here, to say that when you ask us to understand Otaku subbculture, that you are gesturing to the only vaguest hints of of some hitherto cultural trivia that you yourselves cannot put to words not least because you do not even know what it is? Because I am curious as to what arguments you have that are not simply accusing critics like myself as attacking free speech. To me, it seems like you are parroting bullshit that you haven't really thought about.
In my experience, most people here are arguing on behalf of these works because they are normalized within these niche groups, but that seems all the more reason to have those outside the group voice their opinions on said media, because what you consider a subculture I consider an "echo chamber" on a few series. Maybe what you are watching is just weird and or poorly written, and that most of what all of you are interested in are things that are weird and poorly written. Not that I think having bad taste is bad, but maybe you just normalized garbage, and defend it because you take criticisms too seriously.
Can we not just disagree on a matter of taste instead of trying to undermine each other's positions?
I very rarely have been given the same sort of argument I gave for Oldboy (2003), which I think is a good example of explaining how a cultural standard is featured in a given work.
Dumplings are considered a side-dish in Korean cuisine, so our protaganist was essentially fed, or implied to have been fed, someone's side dish for the last 15 years
I am tired of this vague, "you do not get it because you do not watch enough anime" bullshit that is mindlessly parroted here. I am not the smartest or most aware person in the room, but we ought to stop and think about what we are saying, and ask ourselves if we even understand what it is coming out of our mouths.
PeripheralVision said: What exactly about otaku culture/sub-culture is preventing people like myself from liking, say, Jobless Reincarnation? IDK, I don't know you, lol. But actually not much, if something, Mushoku Tensei is one of the anime I recommend to people wanting to get into anime (And in Isekai specifically). Assuming someone is starting "from zero", they would have to learn from the surface language of anime, to the concepts and appeal behind things such as moe, ecchi or loli characters, etc, but that's something that applies to EVERY anime. From Mushoku Tensei in specific, I would advise knowing what a narou-isekai is (And for that, to know what Zero no Tsukaima is). Once you're aware of that, you're usually good to go, most of the bad takes Mushoku Tensei receives aren't specific to people that just don't understand anime. Rather, they come from people who are media illiterate in general. PeripheralVision said: That it is normal for you guys? To me, this imvokes a sort of social relativism, fish swimming in water. You become accustomed to what I happen to think are low quality or juvenile work or to highly specific tropes that to a vast majority of the population is just plain weird. That's just the equivalent of saying "It's a black thing, you wouldn't understand". In that sense, it's not just "normal for us", every group does it to a certain extent. You're correct when it says "It's something that is normally understood by people who passed for certain common experiences for years, and can be unintelligible for those who did not, and it's difficult to explain those to the latter group because a lot of times, though we instinctively understand those things, we have a difficulty putting them into words in a rational, replicable manner". That "the vast majority of the population finds those things weird" is an irrelevant fact. The vast majority of the population isn't able to understand quantum physics nor philosophy, yet those areas aren't less valid because of that. The affections of the midwit aren't a good metric for society. PeripheralVision said: but that does not make it beyond reproach ...why should it be reproached? PeripheralVision said: So what is wrong with acknowledging what we watch is a bit weird if not objectionable, or saying that maybe what we watch is not really art but MCU-tier entertainment? I see nothing wrong with that. Those are just offenses, lol. Those aren't arguments. PeripheralVision said: Fans of these works refuse to acknowledge just how weird their work is in the greater culture, and how normalized it is within our respective niches. No, we do acknowledge this, we just think that we are correct in our positions and those who disagree with us are incorrect, it's that simple. That's like saying "people from this political position don't acknowledge other political positions". PeripheralVision said: and the anime becomes intolerable to a certain segment of the audience because these characters are seriously flawed. That's a subjective opinion, not a fact. PeripheralVision said: Where does culture come in, then? The fact that these tropes are normalized within their respective fandoms? I mean, yes, the definition of culture is "normalized behaviors". PeripheralVision said: Whose to say we have not normalized just bad, irritating, writing? IDK, we, maybe? That's just begging the question "And who's to say that WE DID that?". That seems to be the pattern we've been noticing: For you, all different points of view demand an explanation, while yours is just "the standard" and "the norm", therefore doesn't need to be justified. PeripheralVision said: Those feeling the need to defend the work often characterize all criticisms as being undue, "foreign" impositions, rather than opinions, as if critiquing a piece of work is tantamount to saying it should not exist. Believe me, they're VERY explicit into saying that those works shouldn't exist. If I say "the food sold in this establishment is poisonous and will kill whoever eats it", am I expressing an opinion, or am I implicitly stating the imposition that it shouldn't be sold? PeripheralVision said: In my experience, you are arguing on behalf of these works because they are normalized within these niche groups Yes? That's usually how defense of things tend to work. PeripheralVision said: but that seems all the more reason to have those outside the group voice their opinions on said media Do you think surgeons should also ask for the opinion of a non-surgeon during a surgery? PeripheralVision said: Maybe what you are watching is just weird That word doesn't mean anything, it just signals "hey, my group doesn't do those things". PeripheralVision said: and poorly written Considering that the metrics of good writing aren't that subjective, I'm pretty sure that if it was poorly written, people would notice it. May I ask what specifically is poorly written about it? PeripheralVision said: and all you are interested in are things that are weird and poorly written. Have you ever considered the possibility that maybe we are interested in things that are normal and well written? PeripheralVision said: Not that I think having bad taste is bad, but maybe it is true that bad taste is just normalized within certain segments of the fandom. Or maybe that what you consider "good taste" isn't an objective metric, but an imposition of your biases? |
Reply to removed-user
@thewiru
Okay then, lay it on me. What exactly about otaku culture/sub-culture is preventing people like myself from liking, say, Jobless Reincarnation?
The way I see, terms like "normie" and "tourist" are used not to address criticism so much as to dismiss it. You can gesture vaguely and say "well, then you do not understad otaku subculture", but no one every specifies what about language, conventions, and so forth are preventing me from appreciating these supposed masterpieces. They simply say "well, you do not understand the culture" without specifying what about the culture I do not understand. That it is normal for you guys? To me, this imvokes a sort of social relativism, fish swimming in water. You become accustomed to what I happen to think are low quality or juvenile work or to highly specific tropes that to a vast majority of the population is just plain weird.
Yes, I understand you find it normal, but that does not make it beyond reproach. So what is wrong with acknowledging what we watch is a bit weird if not objectionable, or saying that maybe what we watch is not really art but MCU-tier entertainment? I see nothing wrong with that.
Let me explain my experiences with the anime fandom here.
Fans of these works refuse to acknowledge just how weird their work is in the greater culture, and how normalized it is within our respective niches. To me, that is not a good enough excuse that really addresses most criticisms. So we have a protaganist like Rudeus from Jobless Reincarnation or Mya-nee from Wataten, and the anime becomes intolerable to a certain segment of the audience because these characters are seriously flawed. That's the other sides argument. Where does culture come in, then? The fact that these tropes are normalized within their respective fandoms? Whose to say we have not normalized just bad, irritating, writing?
Those feeling the need to defend the work often characterize all criticisms as being undue, "foreign" impositions, rather than opinions, as if critiquing a piece of work is tantamount to saying it should not exist. Which cultural standards are you referring to? So far, no one here has given me any, just gesture to the existence of cultural standards they assume exist but never specify which ones. You cannot just vaguely gesture to a reason without expounding on it.
Am I wrong here, to say that when you ask us to understand Otaku subbculture, that you are gesturing to the only vaguest hints of of some hitherto cultural trivia that you yourselves cannot put to words not least because you do not even know what it is? Because I am curious as to what arguments you have that are not simply accusing critics like myself as attacking free speech. To me, it seems like you are parroting bullshit that you haven't really thought about.
In my experience, most people here are arguing on behalf of these works because they are normalized within these niche groups, but that seems all the more reason to have those outside the group voice their opinions on said media, because what you consider a subculture I consider an "echo chamber" on a few series. Maybe what you are watching is just weird and or poorly written, and that most of what all of you are interested in are things that are weird and poorly written. Not that I think having bad taste is bad, but maybe you just normalized garbage, and defend it because you take criticisms too seriously.
Can we not just disagree on a matter of taste instead of trying to undermine each other's positions?
I very rarely have been given the same sort of argument I gave for Oldboy (2003), which I think is a good example of explaining how a cultural standard is featured in a given work.
I am tired of this vague, "you do not get it because you do not watch enough anime" bullshit that is mindlessly parroted here. I am not the smartest or most aware person in the room, but we ought to stop and think about what we are saying, and ask ourselves if we even understand what it is coming out of our mouths.
If a person said that a theater play was bad by cinema metrics, we would say that person is silly.
The same applies here: In order to fully and fairly judge anime, one must understand it's language, conventions and what it is trying to do, and usually the best way to do that is by watching a lot of anime.
The same applies here: In order to fully and fairly judge anime, one must understand it's language, conventions and what it is trying to do, and usually the best way to do that is by watching a lot of anime.
Okay then, lay it on me. What exactly about otaku culture/sub-culture is preventing people like myself from liking, say, Jobless Reincarnation?
The way I see, terms like "normie" and "tourist" are used not to address criticism so much as to dismiss it. You can gesture vaguely and say "well, then you do not understad otaku subculture", but no one every specifies what about language, conventions, and so forth are preventing me from appreciating these supposed masterpieces. They simply say "well, you do not understand the culture" without specifying what about the culture I do not understand. That it is normal for you guys? To me, this imvokes a sort of social relativism, fish swimming in water. You become accustomed to what I happen to think are low quality or juvenile work or to highly specific tropes that to a vast majority of the population is just plain weird.
Yes, I understand you find it normal, but that does not make it beyond reproach. So what is wrong with acknowledging what we watch is a bit weird if not objectionable, or saying that maybe what we watch is not really art but MCU-tier entertainment? I see nothing wrong with that.
Let me explain my experiences with the anime fandom here.
Fans of these works refuse to acknowledge just how weird their work is in the greater culture, and how normalized it is within our respective niches. To me, that is not a good enough excuse that really addresses most criticisms. So we have a protaganist like Rudeus from Jobless Reincarnation or Mya-nee from Wataten, and the anime becomes intolerable to a certain segment of the audience because these characters are seriously flawed. That's the other sides argument. Where does culture come in, then? The fact that these tropes are normalized within their respective fandoms? Whose to say we have not normalized just bad, irritating, writing?
Those feeling the need to defend the work often characterize all criticisms as being undue, "foreign" impositions, rather than opinions, as if critiquing a piece of work is tantamount to saying it should not exist. Which cultural standards are you referring to? So far, no one here has given me any, just gesture to the existence of cultural standards they assume exist but never specify which ones. You cannot just vaguely gesture to a reason without expounding on it.
Am I wrong here, to say that when you ask us to understand Otaku subbculture, that you are gesturing to the only vaguest hints of of some hitherto cultural trivia that you yourselves cannot put to words not least because you do not even know what it is? Because I am curious as to what arguments you have that are not simply accusing critics like myself as attacking free speech. To me, it seems like you are parroting bullshit that you haven't really thought about.
In my experience, most people here are arguing on behalf of these works because they are normalized within these niche groups, but that seems all the more reason to have those outside the group voice their opinions on said media, because what you consider a subculture I consider an "echo chamber" on a few series. Maybe what you are watching is just weird and or poorly written, and that most of what all of you are interested in are things that are weird and poorly written. Not that I think having bad taste is bad, but maybe you just normalized garbage, and defend it because you take criticisms too seriously.
Can we not just disagree on a matter of taste instead of trying to undermine each other's positions?
I very rarely have been given the same sort of argument I gave for Oldboy (2003), which I think is a good example of explaining how a cultural standard is featured in a given work.
Dumplings are considered a side-dish in Korean cuisine, so our protaganist was essentially fed, or implied to have been fed, someone's side dish for the last 15 years
I am tired of this vague, "you do not get it because you do not watch enough anime" bullshit that is mindlessly parroted here. I am not the smartest or most aware person in the room, but we ought to stop and think about what we are saying, and ask ourselves if we even understand what it is coming out of our mouths.
| @PeripheralVision I feel that in this subject in particular it would be more productive if we got "less abstract": What are criticisms you feel that Mushoku Tensei deserves? Why do you think that? Who usually does those types of criticism? How people tend to respond to those? Who are the people that respond to them this way? Why do you think they do that? Could you link to a case of it happening? I feel we really need something tangible here so we can analyze it, because any "abstractions" of it have the risk of being misconstructions based on our own different interpretations and biases towards the thing. For instance, reading your part about dumplings and Oldboy made me understand a little more what you meant by "What exactly about otaku culture/sub-culture is preventing people like myself from liking, say, Jobless Reincarnation?", to which the answer would be things like "Knowing what a lolita complex is", "Knowing what a sister complex is and it's representations in anime", "Knowing what are NEETs and Hikkikomori", "Knowing about bishoujo aesthetics", "Knowing about Japanese Fantasy and RPG tropes and aesthetics (Which means that you should know about things such as Wizardy, Dragon Quest and Rance)", and also "Having watched anime in general" because a lot of the appeal of it is how it does stuff different from what anime usually does. I haven't watched a lot of movies, nor am I very knowledgeable about the medium, so if I watched "Citizen Kane" I would likely not know why it is so well regarded. If you're really that curious about anime/otaku culture, you could study it via literature such as the Patrick W. Galbraith books, for instance, just like I could describe an elephant to someone who never saw one before, but the easiest method tends to be simply showing someone a photo/video of an elephant (In that case, having that person experience anime firsthand). |
Reply to DesuMaiden
Why would anyone hate anime tourists? Why would anyone hate their primary source of revenues/profits?
| @DesuMaiden ^ Basically this. More people watching = more revenue = more anime being produced to meet the demand. There might be more "mainstream" anime being made that doesn't cater for your personal taste, but the stuff you like is always going to be there as long as people are wanting to see it. |
billybub said: Mushoku Tensei as "Jobless Reincarnation" But that's the legit meaning of the word! Why keeping on pretending that it isn't? |
SgtBateManJan 1, 8:28 PM
Help! I need somebody. Help! Not just anybody. Help! You know I need someone. Helpppppp!  |
Reply to TheMechaManiac
@LuxuriousHeart There's a difference between diversity and "diversity". Diversity is done with sense, respect and in a way that fits the setting. What the West is doing today is not diversity, but tokenism. Characters only matter because race, sex or sexuality, and not because they're well developed.
It's ironic that folks who clamor the most for alleged "diversity" also shudder when even one traditionally pretty woman is present.
It's ironic that folks who clamor the most for alleged "diversity" also shudder when even one traditionally pretty woman is present.
| @TheMechaManiac Not every Western work is tokenism. That's something that anti-woke latch onto, simply because they dislike the thought of someone darker than tan, being in "their" stuff. That's why y'all latch onto anime. Most of the characters in anime are pale or fair skinned, and y'all don't have to deal with us in "your" stuff. |
Reply to TheMechaManiac
@inklingboi08
>hnyurrr drawings are real people
Can't you people split fiction from reality? Reality is reality, fiction is fiction. Fictional worlds are constructed and they don't have to abide real world rules.
Stop being outraged at random things on the internet and touch grass. You can decide what you will consume. You can't decide what others must consume.
>hnyurrr drawings are real people
Can't you people split fiction from reality? Reality is reality, fiction is fiction. Fictional worlds are constructed and they don't have to abide real world rules.
Stop being outraged at random things on the internet and touch grass. You can decide what you will consume. You can't decide what others must consume.
| @TheMechaManiac And yet, people like you are offended when a darker than tan person is in your stuff. |
Reply to thewiru
LuxuriousHeart said:
dark skinned people don't have a subgenre in anime/manga, nor are they regularly in mainstream series.
dark skinned people don't have a subgenre in anime/manga, nor are they regularly in mainstream series.
Yes, that's why it's an >>>ANALOGY<<<.
What part of "The argument that 'representation doesn't matters because you have a segregated place you can see a thing/members of a group' is bad" did you not understand?
LuxuriousHeart said:
It seems you have an obsession with us (black people, or I guess dark skinned people in this case), and just wanted to bring us up.
It seems you have an obsession with us (black people, or I guess dark skinned people in this case), and just wanted to bring us up.
By USA's one-drop-rule and racial classifications, I'm technically afro-latinx.
| @thewiru Except, it makes no sense. Dark skinned people barely get any rep, whereas fanservice is even in a lot of mainstream anime series. Not the same at all. If anything, LGBT would be a better analogy since there's dedicated BL/GL magazines, but there's also BL and GL couples outside of those magazines. Yet you bring up black people. 🤔 The one drop rule doesn't mean much, especially in the case of people who "pass". |
Reply to thewiru
@PeripheralVision
I feel that in this subject in particular it would be more productive if we got "less abstract":
What are criticisms you feel that Mushoku Tensei deserves? Why do you think that? Who usually does those types of criticism? How people tend to respond to those? Who are the people that respond to them this way? Why do you think they do that? Could you link to a case of it happening?
I feel we really need something tangible here so we can analyze it, because any "abstractions" of it have the risk of being misconstructions based on our own different interpretations and biases towards the thing.
For instance, reading your part about dumplings and Oldboy made me understand a little more what you meant by "What exactly about otaku culture/sub-culture is preventing people like myself from liking, say, Jobless Reincarnation?", to which the answer would be things like "Knowing what a lolita complex is", "Knowing what a sister complex is and it's representations in anime", "Knowing what are NEETs and Hikkikomori", "Knowing about bishoujo aesthetics", "Knowing about Japanese Fantasy and RPG tropes and aesthetics (Which means that you should know about things such as Wizardy, Dragon Quest and Rance)", and also "Having watched anime in general" because a lot of the appeal of it is how it does stuff different from what anime usually does.
I haven't watched a lot of movies, nor am I very knowledgeable about the medium, so if I watched "Citizen Kane" I would likely not know why it is so well regarded.
If you're really that curious about anime/otaku culture, you could study it via literature such as the Patrick W. Galbraith books, for instance, just like I could describe an elephant to someone who never saw one before, but the easiest method tends to be simply showing someone a photo/video of an elephant (In that case, having that person experience anime firsthand).
I feel that in this subject in particular it would be more productive if we got "less abstract":
What are criticisms you feel that Mushoku Tensei deserves? Why do you think that? Who usually does those types of criticism? How people tend to respond to those? Who are the people that respond to them this way? Why do you think they do that? Could you link to a case of it happening?
I feel we really need something tangible here so we can analyze it, because any "abstractions" of it have the risk of being misconstructions based on our own different interpretations and biases towards the thing.
For instance, reading your part about dumplings and Oldboy made me understand a little more what you meant by "What exactly about otaku culture/sub-culture is preventing people like myself from liking, say, Jobless Reincarnation?", to which the answer would be things like "Knowing what a lolita complex is", "Knowing what a sister complex is and it's representations in anime", "Knowing what are NEETs and Hikkikomori", "Knowing about bishoujo aesthetics", "Knowing about Japanese Fantasy and RPG tropes and aesthetics (Which means that you should know about things such as Wizardy, Dragon Quest and Rance)", and also "Having watched anime in general" because a lot of the appeal of it is how it does stuff different from what anime usually does.
I haven't watched a lot of movies, nor am I very knowledgeable about the medium, so if I watched "Citizen Kane" I would likely not know why it is so well regarded.
If you're really that curious about anime/otaku culture, you could study it via literature such as the Patrick W. Galbraith books, for instance, just like I could describe an elephant to someone who never saw one before, but the easiest method tends to be simply showing someone a photo/video of an elephant (In that case, having that person experience anime firsthand).
| @thewiru What prevents people like you from liking Western content? Skin tones darker than tan. Hating muscular women. Disliking diversity. |
Reply to LuxuriousHeart
@thewiru Except, it makes no sense. Dark skinned people barely get any rep, whereas fanservice is even in a lot of mainstream anime series. Not the same at all. If anything, LGBT would be a better analogy since there's dedicated BL/GL magazines, but there's also BL and GL couples outside of those magazines. Yet you bring up black people. 🤔
The one drop rule doesn't mean much, especially in the case of people who "pass".
The one drop rule doesn't mean much, especially in the case of people who "pass".
LuxuriousHeart said: Yet you bring up black people. Yes, I bring that up because it's the easiest way for people to understand that what they want is a form of segregation. |
Reply to thewiru
LuxuriousHeart said:
Yet you bring up black people.
Yet you bring up black people.
Yes, I bring that up because it's the easiest way for people to understand that what they want is a form of segregation.
| @thewiru No, you bring it up because of culture wars. We all know that tourists are usually referring to Western fans that are more liberal. We're not stupid. The topic of black people is in hopes to gain sympathy from that crowd, which won't work for the reasons I stated above. Find another argument. |
xqXpx said: I've being watching anime for almost 25 years. I must be a "tourist" because I couldn't watch Mushoku Tensei. It was akwardly disgusting. then i'll be a tourist too, because that anime is not for me- but a lot of anime watchers actually defend Rudeus of his poor character because thats "how anime works" and ive seen a lot of tourists or whatever they are called and not into it. |
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Reply to GokaiKing
I think there are tourists in both sides of the chessboard (the conservative side and the progressive side). There are definitely people pushing for censorship of basic anime tropes but there are also people pushing for EVERYTHING to be NSFW (ecchi or gore) who are just as obnoxious. You know both sides are tourists because they only talk about the same 3 shows. It's like when people say "Go Woke Go Broke" with games ignoring the plethora of games that have been progressive and have been loved in the past. HELL, THEY EVEN FORGET THAT A WOKE GAME WON GOTY 2023.
Both sides in this arguments are tourists. You can't change my mind.
Both sides in this arguments are tourists. You can't change my mind.
| @GokaiKing It is true that both political sides are full of tourists, are both sides want to censor anime and manga in some way. You don't have to be in either the left-wing or right-wing fandom. Both of them are our enemies. As I've always said, otaku have no political allies. |
Reply to Commit_Crime
I havent watched anime in 2 or 3 months, I am the definition of tourist (love to travel + far-left politically) but these discussions keep me coming back to anime discussion.
kutuya said:
(AOC had to apologize for this 2 years ago but she recently removed them again. The tide is turning)
she is too hot for American politics, if the Americans dont like her then we should get her instead(AOC had to apologize for this 2 years ago but she recently removed them again. The tide is turning)
Commit_Crime said: It really doesn't have to do with what your political views are, but whether or not you force them on others. Both sides have a problem of forcing their politics onto other people. But I would recommend making your own viewpoints on issues, rather than just being "left-wing" or "right-wing".I am the definition of tourist (love to travel + far-left politically) I don't believe anybody should be forced to put pronouns in their bio, but the right-wing crying about pronouns is pretty cringe. |
ForgotEyeWasHereJan 1, 9:12 PM
Reply to removed-user
thewiru said:
For instance, reading your part about dumplings and Oldboy made me understand a little more what you meant by "What exactly about otaku culture/sub-culture is preventing people like myself from liking, say, Jobless Reincarnation?", to which the answer would be things like "Knowing what a lolita complex is", "Knowing what a sister complex is and it's representations in anime", "Knowing what are NEETs and Hikkikomori", "Knowing about bishoujo aesthetics", "Knowing about Japanese Fantasy and RPG tropes and aesthetics (Which means that you should know about things such as Wizardy, Dragon Quest and Rance)", and also "Having watched anime in general" because a lot of the appeal of it is how it does stuff different from what anime usually does.
I haven't watched a lot of movies, nor am I very knowledgeable about the medium, so if I watched "Citizen Kane" I would likely not know why it is so well regarded.
For instance, reading your part about dumplings and Oldboy made me understand a little more what you meant by "What exactly about otaku culture/sub-culture is preventing people like myself from liking, say, Jobless Reincarnation?", to which the answer would be things like "Knowing what a lolita complex is", "Knowing what a sister complex is and it's representations in anime", "Knowing what are NEETs and Hikkikomori", "Knowing about bishoujo aesthetics", "Knowing about Japanese Fantasy and RPG tropes and aesthetics (Which means that you should know about things such as Wizardy, Dragon Quest and Rance)", and also "Having watched anime in general" because a lot of the appeal of it is how it does stuff different from what anime usually does.
I haven't watched a lot of movies, nor am I very knowledgeable about the medium, so if I watched "Citizen Kane" I would likely not know why it is so well regarded.
Yeah, I know all about this stuff. I still find it weird because while I am a fan of anime, I also spend enough time out of the fandom to know other people find it weird, and for good reason. It is weird, and I think we are shooting ourselves in the foot by not being honest with ourselves. I talk with Japanese folks, and yes, that weird shit in anime is also that weird shit in Japan too.
thewiru said:
What are criticisms you feel that Mushoku Tensei deserves? Why do you think that? Who usually does those types of criticism? How people tend to respond to those? Who are the people that respond to them this way? Why do you think they do that? Could you link to a case of it happening?
What are criticisms you feel that Mushoku Tensei deserves? Why do you think that? Who usually does those types of criticism? How people tend to respond to those? Who are the people that respond to them this way? Why do you think they do that? Could you link to a case of it happening?
I already stated my opinion on that specific anime in a previous post, so I will address the last few question. So many people in the West use anime as an ideological bludgeon within our culture wars, protesting political incorrectness, decrying DEI, claiming Japan is a right-wing country, and so forth. They claim western media as a whole is too "woke", and all sorts of rubbish. If you use the forums or social media, you would inevitably see people making these unironic claims.
I think a large part of it is brought on being insular in the sense that they watch nothing but anime, and refuse to engage with people outside their echo-chambers. When you watch nothing but a small subset of a genre, what is normal to you is different than what is normal to the larger population, but pointing it out is considered a "bad" thing.
I'd find it weird for me to discuss The Ryuo's Work is Never Done versus Demon Slayer with people I meet in the real world. One is a highly popular if typical anime about defeating the evil king of the demons while the other is essentially a CGDCT-esque series that has multiple jokes about the main character being a pedophile. People who insist it is not weird or that any criticisms of these work must be invalid on behalf of their objectionable content are out of touch with the rest of society.
I like Wataten, but I do not claim it is art, nor do I think some of these elements are not a cause for concern. Higehiro and Usagi Drop have some of the most baffling defenses that can only be made if you do not live in the real world and or do not socialize much.
Likewise, who else would be surprised that most people would take issue with a literal pedophile as a main character other than complete weirdos? An anime, mind you, where you are supposed to cheer him on, rather than a simply comedy like Wataten. (Even then, Mya-nee cooled down after episode 4). Somehow, it is woke for me to not like a main character who peeped on his niece bathing while also doing nothing to acknowledge that he sucks as a person?
thewiru said:
If you're really that curious about anime/otaku culture, you could study it via literature such as the Patrick W. Galbraith books, for instance, just like I could describe an elephant to someone who never saw one before, but the easiest method tends to be simply showing someone a photo/video of an elephant (In that case, having that person experience anime firsthand).
If you're really that curious about anime/otaku culture, you could study it via literature such as the Patrick W. Galbraith books, for instance, just like I could describe an elephant to someone who never saw one before, but the easiest method tends to be simply showing someone a photo/video of an elephant (In that case, having that person experience anime firsthand).
Why are you assuming I am so un-informed about anime culture? Because of a disagreement? That seems silly to me, at least in this context. Simply watching more anime does not make your opinion better. I rather take someone who is well acquainted with Akira Kurosawa than someone who watches all the seasons of Infinite Stratos. Consuming mediocre media for the sake of entertaining is not "appreciating" art.
PeripheralVision said: Jobless Reincarnation or say, the inclusion of Mineta in Boku No Hero Academia. I don't think they're of the same nature, though. Mushoku Tensei is a series whose author is pretty open about it being about "the normalization of sex", compared to Mineta in HeroAca which is just the trope "pervert character" (And not a very well done version of it, compared to, say, the protagonist of Mahoutsukai Tai.) I don't think many people would be against the removal of Mineta, not because of any moral reasons, but rather because the character simply sucks. But yes, those are of different natures: While for the latter the explanation would be "You see, there this character archetype that-", for the former it would be "You see, the way we interpret the concept of sex is-". PeripheralVision said: It is not wrong or anything to paraphrase people, but it is intellectually lazy to simply post a video for me to watch and say "watch this". I know, I hate when people do it to me. I just did it this time because it was for a tangential part of my argument rather than the core part (The core part being what one should know to watch Mushoku Tensei in specific). PeripheralVision said: The video does not address Kawaii culture and the Japanese aesthetic of cuteness, which is far more relevant here. Hence, why I specified "very surface elements". PeripheralVision said: I say this because I only ever see the terms "normie" and "tourist" used in the context of defending those anime or moments that I think misses the point of most criticisms here, by invoking an assumption of ignorance rather than disagreement. That this is not talking about anime being weird in general, but these specific anime being fucking weird. You have to understand that we usually have to respond to people who are VERY uninformed, so we just always assume to worst. How uninformed? "Saying that Tsukino Usagi is a loli" levels of being uninformed (And yes, that happened) It happens all the time: People misinforming about basic stuff, meaning that they likely only read a surface Wikipedia description of what they're talking about, or are just regurgitating what someone else said. When I see certain Youtubers saying that "Well, Loli means Child, therefore they're lying when they say that Rebecca is a loli, because she's not a child" or I go to the comments of a video analyzing Euphoria and see people saying "Blud is analyzing porn :skull emoji:" or "STOP TRYING TO FIND MEANING IN THIS, IS JUST CHILD TORTURE PORN", I start to think that maybe yes, it is ignorance rather than disagreement. Those people clearly don't have the minimal base level of knowledge to be able to discuss those things. PeripheralVision said: I did not communicate my point well enough it seems; in the context of anime culture more "objectionable" elements, there is a defense mechanism I see here where people argue I need to understand some vague notion to even criticize why Rudeus from Jobless Reincarnation is terrible or why I dislike certain scenes from No Game No Life and to a lesser extent Classroom of the Elite. It makes sense for there to be: Historically, anime was censored when it came to the west, those people discovered the internet where you could watch it uncensored and they don't want to go back to how it was. Stuff like that just triggers that genetic memory on people, same goes for video-games. It's like you're talking to a minority that has been persecuted (Because from their point of view, they were). PeripheralVision said: Arguing that I fail to understand something is basically a self-report on some level that the media you are consuming is weird from those outside a very niche group. We know, that's why we're essentially saying "watch more anime and you'll understand". We know that we "look weird for those outside the group", this is the exact reason as to why people call other tourists for saying that we're weird: They're outing themselves as being from the out-group. PeripheralVision said: To me, it seems a confession of being highly insular to the point of it being an echo chamber, rather than any show of pedigree. It's less of an echo-chamber and more of a "ghetto" that we've all been pushed into. We're all here because people that are not us found our tastes weird and pushed us away. We then all end up together and now you're asking "Hey, let the people who pushed you away in!". I don't understand this criticism since all of this actually happens. Rudeus had something terrible happen to him, which made him "give up on life" and become a terrible person, so not all of it is his fault. Not only that... he does address his former irresponsibility, a lot of the last season being about he being regretful of how he acted towards his family in his earlier life. He also does stop himself from doing perverted actions, his whole relationship with Aisha is about that (Most of it was cut out in the anime, though), part of it being that he can't treat people like objects anymore because he learned to see people as people. The last arc in the anime is literally about how he initially saw his daughter as an "achievement", but at the end of the arc he now understands what parenthood entails, and now can can finally see his daughter as... his daughter. PeripheralVision said: Do you not understand why people would find Uzamaid weird? We do understand: They find it weird because they haven't seen enough anime to notice there's nothing weird about it. That the whole argument we're talking about, that's why they get called tourists. PeripheralVision said: Some people treat disagreement as if it were violence or advocacy for censorships I mean, the last five times we touched the stove, we burned our hands. It's a bit unreasonable to ask us to touch it a sixth, even if the stove might be cold this time. It just feels very suspicious to us how someone would spend a large amount of time talking about how a certain aspect is bad and harmful... and then decide to let it be and not do anything about it. PeripheralVision said: I don't think you disagreeing with me on art is anyhow a threat to me. I don't understand why some people here feel my opinion is somehow so awful and objectionable as to have such vitriolic responses towards it or my person. Believe me: We've seen stuff. Do you know that "Why Is Anime So... Weird?" video I linked to you? I had to defend that video MULTIPLE TIMES on Twitter because people will just see the title and thumbnail and think it's a hitpiece against anime, because the historic of interactions between our ingroup and the outgroup IS JUST THAT BAD. PeripheralVision said: Yeah, I know all about this stuff. I still find it weird because while I am a fan of anime, I also spend enough time out of the fandom to know other people find it weird, and for good reason. It is weird, and I think we are shooting ourselves in the foot by not being honest with ourselves. I talk with Japanese folks, and yes, that weird shit in anime is also that weird shit in Japan too. The problem is that I don't understand the concept of "weird". I know that if I mention certain things about the anime I like to normies they'll feel confused or mistake it's intentions, that's why I always find the necessity to explain everything from the ground up, usually in academic terms. I know, for instances, that normies won't understand why I'm watching an animation about magical middle schoolers. I think that what you define as "weird" is what I define as "I think they will understand if I explain the origins and appeal of it enough". I know that normies will think I'm a bad person for liking the content of MahoAko or Made in Abyss, which is why what I can do is explain to those people why there's nothing wrong with the content in it, and that therefore I'm not a bad person for liking it. I think that's the difference between our views: You treat "something being seen as weird" as a "fact of life", while I see it as "a defect that must be fixed by enlightening the ignorant masses". PeripheralVision said: It is weird, and I think we are shooting ourselves in the foot by not being honest with ourselves. I talk with Japanese folks, and yes, that weird shit in anime is also that weird shit in Japan too. We know. There's literal anime about how Otaku are seem as queer in Japan and not very well regarded. In fact, I think most anime in the category "Otaku Culture" are like that. PeripheralVision said: So many people in the West use anime as an ideological bludgeon within our culture wars, protesting political incorrectness, decrying DEI, claiming Japan is a right-wing country, and so forth. They claim western media as a whole is too "woke", and all sorts of rubbish. If you use the forums or social media, you would inevitably see people making these unironic claims. I know, I call those types of people tourists too. They usually don't know much about the media and are just trying to use it, like you've said, "as a bludgeon in the culture wars", and therefore tend to also commit many egregious mistakes about it and is history... like completely ignoring that when it comes to anime/manga, they were historically kinda woke. I have some pretty esoteric views on how culture wars are essentially wars between different groups of failed normies, and that therefore it makes little sense for weebs to partake in them. PeripheralVision said: People who insist it is not weird or that any criticisms of these work must be invalid on behalf of their objectionable content are out of touch with the rest of society. I mean, you're not providing arguments though, you're just repeating "It's weird, it's weird". We simply see no problem in content like that being depicted. PeripheralVision said: I like Wataten, but I do not claim it is art Is is art, though. "Art" is a lens: If you decide to look at something as art, then it's art. "Art" doesn't mean good. Those two points were the point of DuChamp when he made "the fountain". Why would it be art? When you say "but I don't claim it to be art" it just feels like you don't want your person to be criticized. PeripheralVision said: Likewise, who else would be surprised that most people would take issue with a literal pedophile as a main character other than complete weirdos? Our point is that they shouldn't take issue with this. Once again: You're treating the normie point of view like it's a "fact of life" that needs no justification, while our point of view needs justification. Is being unfazed that the protagonist of the comedy anime is a pedophile any more strange than being unfazed that the protagonist of the new GTA is a criminal? PeripheralVision said: Somehow, it is woke for me to not like a main character who peeped on his niece bathing while also doing nothing to acknowledge that he sucks as a person? ...you shouldn't need art to explicitly tell you what to think. Not everything has to be a He-Man PSA. PeripheralVision said: Why are you assuming I am so un-informed about anime culture? Because of a disagreement? I wasn't talking about in in particular, this one was more of a "hypothetical person 'you'". Either way, have you ever heard of the five monkey experiment? You telling me about your experiences with WataTen is like if a monkey climbed the stairs, got a banana, nothing bad happened to them or the group, but the monkey then decided to not grab a banana again and that them grabbing a banana was "bad". You watched it, you liked it, nothing bad happened, why do you feel the need to maintain the senseless shackles of "It's weird" which is just... shaming? |
Reply to LuxuriousHeart
@thewiru What prevents people like you from liking Western content?
Skin tones darker than tan. Hating muscular women. Disliking diversity.
Skin tones darker than tan. Hating muscular women. Disliking diversity.
| @LuxuriousHeart Uuh... I actually like all of those things, do you want me to share the arts I have saved since 2015/2016 of muscular women with darker skin tones? Though I always preferred eastern media for it's more fantastic aesthetics, ideas and designs. I always found the western obsession with realism kinda boring. I like western indie games that go in a "non-realism" route, though. |
Reply to LuxuriousHeart
@thewiru No, you bring it up because of culture wars. We all know that tourists are usually referring to Western fans that are more liberal. We're not stupid. The topic of black people is in hopes to gain sympathy from that crowd, which won't work for the reasons I stated above. Find another argument.
LuxuriousHeart said: No, you bring it up because of culture wars. Which part of "Stop assuming dumb stuff about me" were you unable to comprehend? LuxuriousHeart said: We all know that tourists are usually referring to Western fans that are more liberal. If that's the logic, then I would be a tourist, since I'm from the western hemisphere and am a liberal. LuxuriousHeart said: We're not stupid. You in particular are not doing a good job of proving that point. LuxuriousHeart said: The topic of black people is in hopes to gain sympathy from that crowd Yes, that's what I literally said: It's the fastest way to make people understand why segregation is bad. |
Reply to removed-user
thewiru said:
I mean, you're not providing arguments though, you're just repeating "It's weird, it's weird".
We simply see no problem in content like that being depicted.
I mean, you're not providing arguments though, you're just repeating "It's weird, it's weird".
We simply see no problem in content like that being depicted.
Because it intuitively is and should be. Why on Earth do you think a literal pedophile for a main character would be considered normal in this sort of story, or "acceptable" to most people? I do not just mean morally acceptable, but someone that we want to cheer on? To me, Rudeus is more or less the instigator of his ignomious end of his former life.
There is a reason why even among antihero protaganists, so very few are rapists, child abusers, or animal abusers. There is a threshold where most people simply cannot be invested in a character who does incredibly horrible shit. This is not relegated to anime, but just common knowledge to anyone who has read or watched anything. It is difficult to develop emotional investment, be that of interest or otherwise, if a character simply sucks.
Books like Child of God by Cormac McCarthy stand out precisely by having a character who is a serial killer necrophile; if it were common then it would not be notable at all. Getting back to Rudeus, on what world could you bring up this character in a real-life conversation with a stranger and not be the least wary at how you are coming across?
Our point is that they shouldn't take issue with this.
Once again: You're treating the normie point of view like it's a "fact of life" that needs no justification, while our point of view needs justification.
Is being unfazed that the protagonist of the comedy anime is a pedophile any more strange than being unfazed that the protagonist of the new GTA is a criminal?
Once again: You're treating the normie point of view like it's a "fact of life" that needs no justification, while our point of view needs justification.
Is being unfazed that the protagonist of the comedy anime is a pedophile any more strange than being unfazed that the protagonist of the new GTA is a criminal?
....Because Jobless Reincarnation is not strictly a comedy anymore than, say Fullmetal Alchemist or Naruto is? As in, there is a central narrative that we are supposed to take seriously. Having jokes does not make an anime solely a comedy. In any case, I think the moral nature of a character can be grounds to dislike a series. Again, how can I be invested in a character that is annoying or so heavily flawed as to be near irredeemable?
Maybe you found him interesting, but I found him boring. Is this not an opinion I can have? I am not morally outraged here that you guys enjoy it so much as I think Rudeus simply sucks as a person and found him irritatingly painful to watch.
thewiru said:
Is is art, though.
"Art" is a lens: If you decide to look at something as art, then it's art.
"Art" doesn't mean good.
Those two points were the point of DuChamp when he made "the fountain".
Why would it be art?
When you say "but I don't claim it to be art" it just feels like you don't want your person to be criticized.
Is is art, though.
"Art" is a lens: If you decide to look at something as art, then it's art.
"Art" doesn't mean good.
Those two points were the point of DuChamp when he made "the fountain".
Why would it be art?
When you say "but I don't claim it to be art" it just feels like you don't want your person to be criticized.
It depends on the definition, but I do not consider it "high art"; my main point is that we should at least be honest with our entertainment than claiming it is things that it is not. What is wrong with at least acknowledging that this anime is weird even within the anime community?
thewiru said:
The problem is that I don't understand the concept of "weird".
I know that if I mention certain things about the anime I like to normies they'll feel confused or mistake it's intentions, that's why I always find the necessity to explain everything from the ground up, usually in academic terms.
I know, for instances, that normies won't understand why I'm watching an animation about magical middle schoolers.
I think that what you define as "weird" is what I define as "I think they will understand if I explain the origins and appeal of it enough".
I know that normies will think I'm a bad person for liking the content of MahoAko or Made in Abyss, which is why what I can do is explain to those people why there's nothing wrong with the content in it, and that therefore I'm not a bad person for liking it.
I think that's the difference between our views: You treat "something being seen as weird" as a "fact of life", while I see it as "a defect that must be fixed by enlightening the ignorant masses"
The problem is that I don't understand the concept of "weird".
I know that if I mention certain things about the anime I like to normies they'll feel confused or mistake it's intentions, that's why I always find the necessity to explain everything from the ground up, usually in academic terms.
I know, for instances, that normies won't understand why I'm watching an animation about magical middle schoolers.
I think that what you define as "weird" is what I define as "I think they will understand if I explain the origins and appeal of it enough".
I know that normies will think I'm a bad person for liking the content of MahoAko or Made in Abyss, which is why what I can do is explain to those people why there's nothing wrong with the content in it, and that therefore I'm not a bad person for liking it.
I think that's the difference between our views: You treat "something being seen as weird" as a "fact of life", while I see it as "a defect that must be fixed by enlightening the ignorant masses"
You should develop some social awareness; ask yourself why people would find it weird, first of all. Do you seriously not understand why Jobless Reincarnation has attracted this much derision? Do you not think bringing up a character like Rudeus would be weird, especially around women? You have to develop your theory of mind here. Now, is taking off your clothes in public weird? Yes, and I need no explanation to justify why it is besides this line from Richard Matheson's I Am Legend.
Normalcy was a majority concept, the standard of many and not the standard of just one man. A new terror born in death, a new superstition entering the unassailable fortress of forever. I am legend.
Because I understand what people find weird and why, I am both better able to explain myself or question why I enjoy the media that I do. I don't villify people for thinking that anime about a pedophile like Wataten or pedophilia jokes like Ryuo's Work is Never Done is at the very least weird. It is fucking weird.
thewiru said:
I wasn't talking about in in particular, this one was more of a "hypothetical person 'you'".
Either way, have you ever heard of the five monkey experiment?
You telling me about your experiences with WataTen is like if a monkey climbed the stairs, got a banana, nothing bad happened to them or the group, but the monkey then decided to not grab a banana again and that them grabbing a banana was "bad".
You watched it, you liked it, nothing bad happened, why do you feel the need to maintain the senseless shackles of "It's weird" which is just... shaming?
I wasn't talking about in in particular, this one was more of a "hypothetical person 'you'".
Either way, have you ever heard of the five monkey experiment?
You telling me about your experiences with WataTen is like if a monkey climbed the stairs, got a banana, nothing bad happened to them or the group, but the monkey then decided to not grab a banana again and that them grabbing a banana was "bad".
You watched it, you liked it, nothing bad happened, why do you feel the need to maintain the senseless shackles of "It's weird" which is just... shaming?
I don't equate weirdness with intrinsically being bad, but I do think refusing to understand why things get their reception is kind of dangerous for you, to be honest. I don't think people who watch these anime are necessarily morally bankrupt pedophiles, but I do think it speaks to a lack of social experience and awareness to think these anime are normal with most any community. It is not just a matter of not being an anime fan, but people just having a natural dislike of the topic of pedophilia in general. Do you not fucking understand that?
thewiru said:
Believe me: We've seen stuff.
Do you know that "Why Is Anime So... Weird?" video I linked to you? I had to defend that video MULTIPLE TIMES on Twitter because people will just see the title and thumbnail and think it's a hitpiece against anime, because the historic of interactions between our ingroup and the outgroup IS JUST THAT BAD.
Believe me: We've seen stuff.
Do you know that "Why Is Anime So... Weird?" video I linked to you? I had to defend that video MULTIPLE TIMES on Twitter because people will just see the title and thumbnail and think it's a hitpiece against anime, because the historic of interactions between our ingroup and the outgroup IS JUST THAT BAD.
Can you just not use Twitter? I see it as no more representative of reality anymore than Reddit or Tumblr is. Social media sites like Instagram and Twitter work by getting you to be outraged, and thus more likely to stay online longer. Some morons on Twitter is not representative of any larger movement against us.
thewiru said:
We do understand: They find it weird because they haven't seen enough anime to notice there's nothing weird about it.
That the whole argument we're talking about, that's why they get called tourists.
We do understand: They find it weird because they haven't seen enough anime to notice there's nothing weird about it.
That the whole argument we're talking about, that's why they get called tourists.
Ah, no. This is the point I am making. These things are normalized for people willing to consume them or not be bothered by them. This seems so obvious as to not be worth telling, but this is actually my point.
Does a fish know it is swimming in water? Do people in say, Afghanistan, know that women being covered head to toe is wrong or is weird in other parts of the world? Not often, because that thing is normalized to them. I can be aware that things in a given fandom are normalized that are otherwise not normal, and can understand why they would be objectionable or elicit feelings of unease and disgust.
As you mentioned before, anime. I am aware anime does diverge from traditional western animation in several ways, and that is what makes it weird and great. I think this weirdness often makes anime a more enjoyable source of media, from action-packed series to iyashikei. On the other hand, there are niche aspects and tropes of the subculture that I think are normalized despite being weird, you cannot normalized what is normal after all.
So I think when you are in these echo-chambers, you drastically lose sight of why people may think Mushoku Tensei is at the least weird if not outright bad or distinteresting. Hence why I think these sorts of criticisms from people not too mired in their own bubbles are on some level needed, for a reason not entirely dissimilar from non-Afghans pointing out how weird and brutal burkha requirements are, because clearly that is not the norm for a majority of the world.
Maybe a pedophile loser protaganist is weird? Or can affect how people can relate to or like a character? It is not a matter of being unfamiliar with the tropes of anime, it is a matter of not liking this particular trope in anime!
thewiru said:
I don't understand this criticism since all of this actually happens.
Rudeus had something terrible happen to him, which made him "give up on life" and become a terrible person, so not all of it is his fault.
Not only that... he does address his former irresponsibility, a lot of the last season being about he being regretful of how he acted towards his family in his earlier life.
He also does stop himself from doing perverted actions, his whole relationship with Aisha is about that (Most of it was cut out in the anime, though), part of it being that he can't treat people like objects anymore because he learned to see people as people.
The last arc in the anime is literally about how he initially saw his daughter as an "achievement", but at the end of the arc he now understands what parenthood entails, and now can can finally see his daughter as... his daughter.
I don't understand this criticism since all of this actually happens.
Rudeus had something terrible happen to him, which made him "give up on life" and become a terrible person, so not all of it is his fault.
Not only that... he does address his former irresponsibility, a lot of the last season being about he being regretful of how he acted towards his family in his earlier life.
He also does stop himself from doing perverted actions, his whole relationship with Aisha is about that (Most of it was cut out in the anime, though), part of it being that he can't treat people like objects anymore because he learned to see people as people.
The last arc in the anime is literally about how he initially saw his daughter as an "achievement", but at the end of the arc he now understands what parenthood entails, and now can can finally see his daughter as... his daughter.
It addresses it no more than Demon Slayer addresses Zenitsu, which is to say it never addresses it at all. Simply having a character "change" is not an arc, you need to have effortful introspection, to which yes, Rudeus is largely responsible for being such a fucking loser in his former life. He was not some successful businessman who suffered a tragedy, he was a loser who became destitute. How can I look at his character and not think that he has responsibility for being a fucking loser with no social network? Maybe he should not have video recorded his own niece in the bath. It is difficult to treat his pedophilia as an awkward and endearing flaw when it seems to be a major part of why he failed in his former life.
Am I the only one not seeing how a homeless bum with a history of child pornography possession is responsible for how his life sucks? Or that maybe I find it hard to be invested in such a loser?
The series does not address it head-on, there is very little build-up to any realization that Rudeus sucks outside of maybe his lack of confidence, but the show really sidesteps how his own moral bankruptness contributed as well. I find it hard to cheer for less than confident character when the lack of confidence is completely justified. Maybe do something before having self-esteem issues, hm? I hate this self-pitying bullshit for a completely annoying pervert of a character.
Edit: It appears we gotten off track? I think we spent too much time debating weirdness, when my main point is that I just don't like pedophile main characters for the most part (One serious exception is Satou from Happy Sugar Life), and it is not a matter of ignorance so much as simply disliking the character for a pretty big flaw.
PeripheralVision said: Because it intuitively is and should be. Why on Earth do you think a literal pedophile for a main character would be considered normal in this sort of story, or "acceptable" to most people? I do not just mean morally acceptable, but someone that we want to cheer on? "And yet it moves" And yet it's one of the best selling Light Novels. That alone should make you rethink your metrics of "should be" and "shouldn't be". PeripheralVision said: Getting back to Rudeus, on what world could you bring up this character in a real-life conversation with a stranger and not be the least wary at how you are coming across? This one, I guess. PeripheralVision said: ...Because Jobless Reincarnation is not strictly a comedy anymore than, say Fullmetal Alchemist or Naruto is? That comment was about WataTen PeripheralVision said: but I found him boring. Is this not an opinion I can have? I don't think anyone would complain about that, though. PeripheralVision said: What is wrong with at least acknowledging that this anime is weird even within the anime community? Like I said, the word "weird" means nothing, it's a term to say "stop doing this". PeripheralVision said: Do you seriously not understand why Jobless Reincarnation has attracted this much derision? I have no reason to lie here. PeripheralVision said: Do you not think bringing up a character like Rudeus would be weird, especially around women? Not really. PeripheralVision said: Now, is taking off your clothes in public weird? Yes That's just because we chose that. There are many societies where people didn't choose that, and being naked in public is no big deal. PeripheralVision said: Because I understand what people find weird and why, I am both better able to explain myself or question why I enjoy the media that I do. I don't villify people for thinking that anime about a pedophile like Wataten or pedophilia jokes like Ryuo's Work is Never Done is at the very least weird. It is fucking weird. Well, I understand those people and think that they're wrong and uninformed. PeripheralVision said: Do you not fucking understand that? I don't, actually. I don't think that reaction is reasonable to anime. People are already normal about violence in movies and games, I'm just being consistent about it while they aren't. PeripheralVision said: Can you just not use Twitter? You know the answer to that. PeripheralVision said: I see it as no more representative of reality anymore than Reddit or Tumblr is. Social media sites like Instagram and Twitter work by getting you to be outraged, and thus more likely to stay online longer. Some morons on Twitter is not representative of any larger movement against us. I mean, sure, but if social media isn't a good way to gauge what are people's opinions about internet stuff on the internet... then what is? PeripheralVision said: So I think when you are in these echo-chambers, you drastically lose sight of why people may think Mushoku Tensei is at the least weird if not outright bad or distinteresting. Hence why I think these sorts of criticisms from people not too mired in their own bubbles are on some level needed, for a reason not entirely dissimilar from non-Afghans pointing out how weird and brutal burkha requirements are, because clearly that is not the norm for a majority of the world. The difference being that we are aware of both positions and CHOOSE one as being better. Many people in Afghanistan are not aware that any alternatives exist. PeripheralVision said: Maybe a pedophile loser protaganist is weird? Or can affect how people can relate to or like a character? It is not a matter of being unfamiliar with the tropes of anime, it is a matter of not liking this particular trope in anime! You using the word "weird" is similar to how progressive people feel when you start spamming the word "woke". Please, try to express what you want to express without using it. PeripheralVision said: you need to have effortful introspection Which there was. PeripheralVision said: He was not some successful businessman who suffered a tragedy, he was a loser who became destitute. And he became a loser because he suffered a tragedy. PeripheralVision said: Am I the only one not seeing how a homeless bum with a history of child pornography possession is responsible for how his life sucks? Or that maybe I find it hard to be invested in such a loser? Maybe you are: I already explained how his entire character is built around how he gave up on life, and therefore became a bad person. And now that he has a new life he is becoming a good person by having experiences that show him the value of things. PeripheralVision said: when my main point is that I just don't like pedophile main characters for the most part (One serious exception is Satou from Happy Sugar Life), and it is not a matter of ignorance so much as simply disliking the character for a pretty big flaw. I mean, that's OK, that's a personal opinion. This is different, however, to saying that the series is poorly written because of that. People that accuse others of being tourists, though they do that more than they should to the point it ends up becoming McArthyism, do it so on a "Think horses, not Zebras" logic: You might have done nothing wrong yourself, but get accused but you look similar enough to someone who did. |
| what does "tourist" even mean for me, someone who obviously doesn't care about the subject matter but simply wants to stir up culture war drama qualifies. but everyone probably knows the types of people i'm talking about here. otherwise, i don't really care about "gatekeeping" or anything. i do think that subject expertise matters - if someone goes "xxx is the best anime of all time!", i think it's fair to go "ok but you've watched like fifteen shows ever lol". |
Reply to LuxuriousHeart
@thewiru No, you bring it up because of culture wars. We all know that tourists are usually referring to Western fans that are more liberal. We're not stupid. The topic of black people is in hopes to gain sympathy from that crowd, which won't work for the reasons I stated above. Find another argument.
| @LuxuriousHeart see I've heard the opposite. "tourist" I've mostly seen as Twitter people who are deeply culture-war brained and try to stir up drama despite having next to no interest in the subject matter. this one tends to span both sides of the spectrum like a good 90% of the twitter posts i see about "woke translators" in video games and anime are mostly tourists. they don't have any interest in whatever work they're actually talking about, and their entire timelines consist of angry culture-war content. 99% of the time, it's obvious they don't even know japanese. it's exhausting. |
fbjimJan 2, 12:24 AM
Reply to TheMechaManiac
@LuxuriousHeart There's a difference between diversity and "diversity". Diversity is done with sense, respect and in a way that fits the setting. What the West is doing today is not diversity, but tokenism. Characters only matter because race, sex or sexuality, and not because they're well developed.
It's ironic that folks who clamor the most for alleged "diversity" also shudder when even one traditionally pretty woman is present.
It's ironic that folks who clamor the most for alleged "diversity" also shudder when even one traditionally pretty woman is present.
| @TheMechaManiac the main problem with arguing about "tokenism" is that it creates a double standard where non-white characters basically have to justify their existence. i think it's fair to say that nobody likes blatant tokenism, and that tokenism does exist. bad forms of "representation" where but fixating on it in cases where it isn't really relevant means creating a situation where - any time a non-white character has a major role, people have to scream arguments at each other over whether this is a "justified" use of a non-white character or not, whereas few people start arguments over white characters. basically it isn't fair to anyone involved if you end up creating a standard specifically for non-white characters that they have to pass. has anyone ever argued that a white character is a "token white guy"? |
Reply to RainyEvenings
The hate is totally unnecessary and over the top. Fandoms should be inclusive and welcoming. After all, more fans mean more support for the anime industry.
But Rudeus Greyrat from Mushoku Tensei: Jobless Reincarnation is and exception.. He is basically the anime equivalent of that P Diddy, Epstein
who always comes to the party and burns down the entire neighborhood .
His actions towards women are downright criminal behavior. He's the ugliest smelliest ugly hentai bastard ever to grace anime to say the least!
He deserves all the hate.
But Rudeus Greyrat from Mushoku Tensei: Jobless Reincarnation is and exception.. He is basically the anime equivalent of that P Diddy, Epstein
who always comes to the party and burns down the entire neighborhood .
His actions towards women are downright criminal behavior. He's the ugliest smelliest ugly hentai bastard ever to grace anime to say the least!
He deserves all the hate.
| @RainyEvenings Finally a human in this thread speaking facts |
| As someone who was never part of a big anime community before recently coming to MAL, I sometimes feel that the term "tourist" refers more to not being part of some anime otaku culture than to anime fandom in general. That's how I see it: I'm not mad at people for trying to protect a culture that they like, it's not fair to tell them that they can't have their own space where people have to respect their rules. If they don't make themselves visible they will be consumed by the bigger fandom which has different expectations for the medium than them. Unfortunately, otakus try to protect their culture by pretending that they represent all anime fans (which just isn't true) and by trying to monopolize every space where you can talk about anime for themselves. All sides are somewhat justified, but I don't really have a solution. I'll just keep watching anime and talk about all the inoffensive stuff I find fascinating. |
VaturnaJan 2, 4:08 AM
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Reply to Nutella71
@kutuya I wish you insinuating I'm a cuck as a retort for not sharing your dehumanizing ragebait masked as coherent sentences views was nearly as funny as you think it is.
| @Nutella71 I wish you insinuating I'm saving money by not moving out of my parent's house when I don't have to (which there is nothing wrong with since in such an arrangement I likely would still be paying rent to live with my parents) was in some way relevant to anything I said, and I wish that you hadn't given another reddit response when I threw a bit of banter back at you. Nutella71 said: dehumanizing ragebait masked as coherent sentences Even in your rage you couldn't help but compliment my writing. Thanks pal. |
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Reply to LuxuriousHeart
@kutuya Trans people accept gender benders as acceptable representation. In a way, Akane is technically bi since she likes the male and female Ranma. And there have been explicit trans characters in manga before. Claudine is a good example of that. So trans rep has been in anime for a while.
LuxuriousHeart said: Trans people accept gender benders as acceptable representation. @LuxuriousHeart I don't care, and I already said it was close, but it's still completely different from actual tranoids. LuxuriousHeart said: And there have been explicit trans characters in manga before. I literally said this. |
|
| my "Serious" response to the Mushoku Tensei "problematic anime" stuff is, everyone is going to have their own moral compass when it comes to how much "weird" aspects of work bother them. on the one side, you have people who throw things at the TV screen the moment a character's boobs are either too big or too small. on the other side, you have the people who stop the anime and grab tissues and a box of hand lotion when this happens. the majority of viewers go "haha weird anime" and let it slide off them. this is entirely personal. i love Made in Abyss, and i have friends who said they dropped it because they had a strong suspicion that the mangaka was making up plot excuses for kids to get naked, and this bothered them. the thing is, "this bothers me" is not something that i can really argue against. no argument i make is going to affect someone's personal reaction, because that isn't based on art criticism, or objective analysis, or whatever - it's based on their own moral beliefs. and as long as people don't keep trying to insist that others share, or validate, their own sense of morality, this shouldn't be an issue. it bothers them enough to stop watching, and it didn't bother me enough to stop watching. that's it. |
PeripheralVision said: Rudeus is largely responsible for being such a fucking loser in his former life. He was not some successful businessman who suffered a tragedy, he was a loser who became destitute. How can I look at his character and not think that he has responsibility for being a fucking loser with no social network? Maybe he should not have video recorded his own niece in the bath. It is difficult to treat his pedophilia as an awkward and endearing flaw when it seems to be a major part of why he failed in his former life. Am I the only one not seeing how a homeless bum with a history of child pornography possession is responsible for how his life sucks? Or that maybe I find it hard to be invested in such a loser? The series does not address it head-on, there is very little build-up to any realization that Rudeus sucks outside of maybe his lack of confidence, but the show really sidesteps how his own moral bankruptness contributed as well. I find it hard to cheer for less than confident character when the lack of confidence is completely justified. Maybe do something before having self-esteem issues, hm? I hate this self-pitying bullshit for a completely annoying pervert of a character. I think you don't really understand no one not author not fans support this loser of a former Rudeus. He is meant to be hated and looked down upon. He is a terrible human being. And Rudeus in this world carried some of that personality. He indeed faced a tragedy which spiraled out into his deplorable life. He did not tried to break out of his slumber and keep getting worse as a human. So when he got a fresh start he tried to correct this as much as possible. You can change overnight like some run of the mill Isekai mc do. It takes time. It took him 5 years to leave his house he was that traumatized by his past experience. His flawed nature ain't gonna disappear overnight. He tries to live with his flawed morals (of pedophilia) like on Sylphy and Eris but he never really gets rewarded. He isn't handed anything freebies like this guy really trained hard and leaned a lot which was unimaginable for his former self. These things are also development. By the structure of MT story he also never get to live a happy life for long and always have major setbacks and challenges every time he gets comfy. Never he gets rewarded. He was still a flawed person to end of S1. And for once when he gets something (not before his biggest horror) he immediately got screwed so bad he needs two year recover. Like a punishment for his deeds and his mishandling by himself and other. S2 he really turned a corner and became way more respectable yes there are degen moments with his peers but Pedophilia complain about him his laughable. I don't even need to bring Aisha stuff. And by end of S2 he has accepted all his flaw and acknowledged his mistakes and regrets about shunning his previous family. He is literally abandoned all of his flaws and degeneracy in a course of 18 years. That's how it should be... Ik I wasted my time cause there's high chance people complaining about "Mushoku Tensie promotes Pedophilia" didn't watch past S1 or watched eyes close or simply to hate. This anime isn't for everyone, it's obvious Rudy is bad person at start and takes lots of time to be somewhat normal and likeable. If you ain't for that comeback ride of such a trash human it's fine, it's not for everyone. Don't watch it dislike it. But how can you say this is promoting Pedophilia the very stuff it is saying it's wrong and being discouraged. Its unbelievable how in 2025 people still bring this discussion.. Seesh.. |
| So we will simply ignore the fact Rudeus tried to stop bullying of others in his past life and got punished severely for it by bullies which was resulted in his Neet status and only just focus on his perverted tendencies and call him "a fucking loser" and of course a pedophile, okay... Also, I gotta say it's a bit ironic ffor someone who is obssesed on hating Rudeus for his perversion has " incredibly loving Onii-chan looking for imoutos" written on his profile. Anyway, this thread got nothing to do with anime tourists anymore, it's just some other thread for edgelords and egocentric users to vent off their frustrations and should be locked. |
JoeChipJan 2, 9:34 AM
| Wait so we're a tourist now if we don't watch and talk about Mushoku Tensei is that it ? AHAHAHA I guess I am one too then, who could have thought! I watched season 1 but dropped during season 2... and now that I know Rudeus made a harem ??? it's in the trash for good now no thanks bro lol I even have a small isekai section and I don't want it in it honestly... people don't need to have "one series" more than the others... For example I'd rather have monsters protagonists (Overlord, Slime, Spider, Skelleton Knight, Re:Monster... sadly dragon hatchling was never translated in french, it's one of my favorites), if you have others titles like those go tell me I'm craving for more. But for the topic, "elitists" are compensating what they do not have by belittling others, it makes them feel superior, they're all full of themselves who cares about them and what they think of people lol I don't know them, where they are (probably discord or else I guess, maybe this forum ? IDK I'm just here waiting for the AWC 2025 tbh) People referring to themselves as "anime veterans" are very likely to be tourists too, only they're the more pretentious kind. This basically ! |
TitadouJan 2, 9:09 AM
Reply to inklingboi08
@TheMechaManiac I'm not deciding what others MUST consume, nor am I outraged at anything on the internet. I simply believe that the oversexualization of UNDERAGED characters or people, male or female, fictional or otherwise, is wrong. You can choose to believe that or not.
@inklingboi08 Please tell us more about the importance of numbers in fiction. |
No, this isn't my signature. |
| we got to kill them man, line them up and execute them Sure! Here’s a reply that subtly hints at an apartheid-like divide: "It's interesting how the divide between 'veterans' and 'tourists' has become such a talking point. On one hand, there's the argument that true fans have a deeper understanding of anime's themes and nuances, but on the other, it feels like gatekeeping. Everyone comes to anime with their own experiences, and it’s natural for newer viewers to engage differently than those who’ve been around for years. But creating an 'us vs. them' mentality seems a bit counterproductive—after all, anime is meant to be enjoyed by all, no matter when or how they enter the fandom. We could do with less 'elite' and more inclusivity, in both fandom and judgment." |
 |
PeripheralVision said: Rudeus does not make an earnest attempt to reflect on his own culpability, which is important if you want to write a story where the central character learns to grow up. He does though like finally able to leave house with Roxy help. Admitting his mistakes in handling situation with Eris several times. Killing a kid in quest to prioritise themselves first, rescuing and saving dedoldia, Paul episode, saving Aisha. These are all from season 1 where Rudy kept learning from his mistakes and indeed became better. PeripheralVision said: He says he sucks, but it is not a moral acknowledgementor even of responsibility, he just means he sucks in terms of confidence, as if he was Stark from Sousou no Frieren. Stark is a very linear simple good guy there's nothing really to say. His confidence issue was handled well. But its not really comparable. Rudeus is far better written character he is not a perfect good guy but his struggles are also valid. Yes he didn't try to help himself in his previous life and you are supposed to hate that but you also need appreciate when he tries to change after given second chance. PeripheralVision said: I only watched Season 1, and I seen enough; your tolerance for this sort of writing is higher than mine, but honestly? If the first 400 pages of a fantasy novel are bad, why read the last 400 or 800 pages I am not gonna force you to just letting you know a junkyard can't be cleaned in a day(23 episodes) it needs time. A extremely flawed person like Rudeus need time to finally be the best and it will be done over the course of 4/5 seasons not 1. But in S2 his improvement way more significant and tangible compared to S1. |
Reply to Titadou
Wait so we're a tourist now if we don't watch and talk about Mushoku Tensei is that it ? AHAHAHA I guess I am one too then, who could have thought! I watched season 1 but dropped during season 2... and now that I know Rudeus made a harem ??? it's in the trash for good now no thanks bro lol
I even have a small isekai section and I don't want it in it honestly... people don't need to have "one series" more than the others...
For example I'd rather have monsters protagonists (Overlord, Slime, Spider, Skelleton Knight, Re:Monster... sadly dragon hatchling was never translated in french, it's one of my favorites), if you have others titles like those go tell me I'm craving for more.
But for the topic, "elitists" are compensating what they do not have by belittling others, it makes them feel superior, they're all full of themselves who cares about them and what they think of people lol I don't know them, where they are (probably discord or else I guess, maybe this forum ? IDK I'm just here waiting for the AWC 2025 tbh)
This basically !
I even have a small isekai section and I don't want it in it honestly... people don't need to have "one series" more than the others...
For example I'd rather have monsters protagonists (Overlord, Slime, Spider, Skelleton Knight, Re:Monster... sadly dragon hatchling was never translated in french, it's one of my favorites), if you have others titles like those go tell me I'm craving for more.
But for the topic, "elitists" are compensating what they do not have by belittling others, it makes them feel superior, they're all full of themselves who cares about them and what they think of people lol I don't know them, where they are (probably discord or else I guess, maybe this forum ? IDK I'm just here waiting for the AWC 2025 tbh)
People referring to themselves as "anime veterans" are very likely to be tourists too, only they're the more pretentious kind.
This basically !
Titadou said: it's in the trash for good now no thanks bro lol Titadou said: But for the topic, "elitists" are compensating what they do not have by belittling others, it makes them feel superior, they're all full of themselves who cares about them and what they think of people That fucking lack of self-awareness. I guess you're also a tourist at that... |
Reply to Nutella71
kutuya said:
was in some way relevant to anything I said
That was me making a jab at the contents of your posts which closely resemble those of so called basement dwellers I'm sure you know of. was in some way relevant to anything I said
kutuya said:
another reddit response
And calling people -oids among other things isn't a staple of reddit? You DO want people to take you seriously, right? another reddit response
Nutella71 said: That was me making a jab at the contents of your posts which closely resemble those of so called basement dwellers I'm sure you know of. @Nutella71 I know, it was not clever, insightful, or entertaining. Also you just explained the joke. You should never explained the joke. Nutella71 said: And calling people -oids among other things isn't a staple of reddit? Not as far as I know. I use it because I don't like saying "transgenders", "transexuals" doesn't feel quite right, and "tranny" or "troon" are too derogatory, Japan is all about that respect you know  Nutella71 said: You DO want people to take you seriously, right? >implying redditoids are people |
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Reply to Zarutaku
| @Zarutaku Calendrical age is the stupidest social construct of them all. It doesn't matter to me what year my daughter was born in, she will always be 8 to me ♡ |
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