| My question would be where the line was. What about Konosuba and Shield Hero, which act and feel like a video game, but are in fact different worlds? How would that be different from Log Horizon, which is established as a video game, but has no contact or plot in the real world (anime-only, I can't speak for the light novels)? I think the argument against SAO could be made (particularly the movie), since a decent amount of plot elements take place in the real world. As for the drug trip example, I'm going to bring up Alice in Wonderland, the original book. We're never quite sure whether she was actually there, or if it was a dream/drug trip, yet I would still consider it an isekai of sorts. I'd say the most important thing is how much of the plot is affected by the "real world." |
 落ちていく涙さえ偽りと引き換えに 言い訳を繰り返して闇を生きる この悲しみの果てにある明日は 怯えてるこの心ただ蒼く染めてく 嘘に塗れた美しき世界で霞ゆく眩しさに 手を伸ばそうと月を仰いだ |
OfDeathandLove said: My question would be where the line was. What about Konosuba and Shield Hero, which act and feel like a video game, but are in fact different worlds? How would that be different from Log Horizon, which is established as a video game, but has no contact or plot in the real world (anime-only, I can't speak for the light novels)? I think the argument against SAO could be made (particularly the movie), since a decent amount of plot elements take place in the real world. As for the drug trip example, I'm going to bring up Alice in Wonderland, the original book. We're never quite sure whether she was actually there, or if it was a dream/drug trip, yet I would still consider it an isekai of sorts. I'd say the most important thing is how much of the plot is affected by the "real world." Uh, isn't the line so clear that it's hard to miss? "isekai" simply means "another world" or " a different world". The simple question is, is there at least two worlds and did at least one person go from one to the other? If clear yes (Konosuba, shield hero, youjo senki, juuni kokuki, escaflowne...) then it's clear isekai, if clear no (SAO, any pure VRMMO stuff, danmachi) then clearly not an isekai, and last if no clear answer is available (Log Horizon, we don't know for sure if they're in another world or not, that's a question that is up in the air, or them here with their body or not) then impossible to tell until further notice. The later is perfectly fine BTW since the author purposely play on the question itself, so you're not supposed to be able to answer it before the author himself give it to you later on (or maybe never). Was that really hard, I don't know. Where's the difficulty, you guys tell me. Isekai is just a setting, it's either there, or not there, or the author purposely made it so that you keep asking yourself if it's here or not (rare case), but regardless, the answer for every single thing you read or watched should be able to be answered by one of the three options almost instantly. |
ZefyrisFeb 27, 2019 4:50 PM
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| Monster Rancher was the best isekai. |
 ☆☆☆ "There's a huge difference between one and infinity. However, compared to the difference between existence and non-existence, one and infinite are nearly the same. I am the child destined to become the best witch... no... The greatest Creator in the world...!" -Maria Ushiromiya ☆☆☆ |
| Sword Art Online as a whole is not an Isekai. The Aincrad Arc, debatable, depending on where you draw the line. In my opinion, it is not. The NerveGear is feeding fake sensory input into the user's brain. The game world only exists in the user's mind respectively on servers. There is no other world. |
| You're a louse, Roger Smith. - R. Dorothy Wayneright This is my fight! No Senpai, this is our fight! - Kojou Akatsuki & Yukina Himeragi  |
| Just a label does it really matter either way? |
| Lolicons are scum. BABYMETAL is more metal than Metallica. Naruto is objectively the best anime ever. HxH 99' is decent. HxH 11' is bad. |
| I disagree with the OP's contention -- the isekai premise consists of having the person's consciousness stuck in another world. Whether their real body goes with that is more of a trivia thing. If it's simply about "what really happens", then what about the case of something like Magic Knight Rayearth, where basically no time passes in the "real world" and their bodies are never transported in the first place? (unless you bend over backwards and make up an explanation that it also creates a time bubble or something) And if it's a story about tricking someone into thinking something, then it's about how the story is portrayed. Is the focus on the "unreal world" or is the focus on the person's experience outside it? If the story's focus is clearly on the "unreal world", then it counts as an isekai. GoldObserver said: A significant feature of a number of isekai stories is that it's not just "another world", but the main characters are specifically stuck in that other world, in their consciousness. I'm not sure if this applies to every isekai story, but it's certainly a feature I've seen in basically every such story I've encountered.The game worlds in the series' are seen as seperate realities by some veiwers despite being virtual worlds. Isn't VR and augmented reality technology an attempt to change our perceptions of the world around us? Isn't the whole "VR dive" stuff just a super advanced way of tricking the conscious brain into thinking its somewhere else? If thats true would a super drug trip story be considered to be an isekai if the individual believed they were in a different world? What about if the character had a mental breakdown and thought the same? Even just sat of a bench daydreaming, same thing? If you want to make for an even more expansive definition of "isekai", then perhaps even light daydreaming could potentially count, but then it would depend rather strongly on what exactly the focus of the show is, whether it's focused on portraying the person's consciousness outside of the real world. That said, there's nothing "wrong" with a more expansive definition; it's sort of an arbitrary line-drawing anyway. |
GlennMagusHarveyFeb 27, 2019 6:16 PM
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| SAO is about a guy who plays a game so much, he's in a coma and his family hospitalizes him. He doesn't go anywhere but the fucking hospital. Can't be isekai. |
_Goko said: As someone who owns VR, I can safely say I tend to stay in my room during the experience. I've hit my hand on my fan quite a few times as a reminder of reality.doesn't isekai actually mean "different world" or "another world" or something like that? if so, then yes SAO is an isekai. |
_Goko said: Yeah, this is essentially my take on this dispute.doesn't isekai actually mean "different world" or "another world" or something like that? if so, then yes SAO is an isekai. PsychoticDave said: The focus isn't on "guy plays a game so much, guy is in a coma, guy is hospitalized", however. The focus is on said guy's experiences within the game world. If the show focused on what you mentioned then I'd agree it wasn't an isekai.SAO is about a guy who plays a game so much, he's in a coma and his family hospitalizes him. He doesn't go anywhere but the fucking hospital. Can't be isekai. (Besides, simply playing the game too much was not what put him in a coma, but that's a different issue.) (Also, in the SAO setting, you don't control the game with physical movement, but solely with the mind, so it'd be a bit hard to hit the fan by accident.) |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
_Goko said: If you're on acid and you truely believe you're in a spaceship it doesn't change the fact you're laying in a bed listening to your AC. You didn't actually go anywhere.PsychoticDave said: As someone who owns VR, I can safely say I tend to stay in my room during the experience. I've hit my hand on my fan quite a few times as a reminder of reality. Oh crap I forgot it was VR in SAO (I dropped the show a while ago whatever) but still even though he's physically still in his room or whatever his "soul" or "mind" is playing is stuck in the digital world which is a different world. so i still consider it an isekai @GlennMagusHarvey Plus SAO is only in the first game for less than half of the first season. If a vast majority of it isn't even similar to isekai, how can the whole season be considered isekai? Nerve Gear transmits the game signals to your brain and your brain signals to the game. Therefore it is not isekai because it's just fucking VR |
PsychoticDaveFeb 27, 2019 6:34 PM
PsychoticDave said: But your consciousness went somewhere. The story (or the part of the story) that focuses on the character's journey through an unreal world) is isekai._Goko said: If you're on acid and you truely believe you're in a spaceship it doesn't change the fact you're laying in a bed listening to your AC. You didn't actually go anywhere.Oh crap I forgot it was VR in SAO (I dropped the show a while ago whatever) but still even though he's physically still in his room or whatever his "soul" or "mind" is playing is stuck in the digital world which is a different world. so i still consider it an isekai @GlennMagusHarvey Plus SAO is only in the first game for less than half of the first season. If a vast majority of it isn't even similar to isekai, how can the whole season be considered isekai? Nerve Gear transmits the game signals to your brain and your brain signals to the game. Therefore it is not isekai because it's just fucking VR There's no reason something can't be both VR and isekai (or neither for that matter). |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| @GlennMagusHarvey Your consciousness doesn't go anywhere. You're still in the same place. It's literally just more advanced VR. It's signals between your brain and the game. And whole game killing you thing is irrelevant because Kaiba did that and it had nothing to do with anything else related to that world. HP hits 0, headset microwaves you. Simple coding is all. Bringing up the game killing you part cause I know it'll come up at some point in this thread. |
HsiuqsYgnops said: SAO is an Isekai. If we use Isekai to describe an anime where they transport into a new world than SAO is still an isekai. A digital world is still another world. It's a game. The headset sends signals to replicate senses and the brain sends signals to do shit. You go nowhere. Not isekai. |
PsychoticDaveFeb 27, 2019 7:01 PM
PsychoticDave said: The "game killing you" part actually has rather little to do with why I consider it isekai, so you're probably misinterpreting me.@GlennMagusHarvey Your consciousness doesn't go anywhere. You're still in the same place. It's literally just more advanced VR. It's signals between your brain and the game. And whole game killing you thing is irrelevant because Kaiba did that and it had nothing to do with anything else related to that world. HP hits 0, headset microwaves you. Simple coding is all. Bringing up the game killing you part cause I know it'll come up at some point in this thread. The explanation you just gave actually argues that conciousness doesn't even exist, since the brain is just a bunch of signals in the first place. That said, when you're lying on a bed completely unaware of your surroundings, I'd hardly describe that as "your consciousness doesn't go anywhere; you're still in the same place". While one could argue that it's technically true in the sense that your brain -- which is assumed to contain your consciousness -- doesn't physically travel anywhere, but that assumption also excludes interdimensional travel and teleportation and separation of the body and the soul. A completely mechanical view of the world would argue that it's just signals, but in that case, one could say the same thing about basically anything fantastical. Therefore, a proper definition cannot be completely mechanical, or else the genre itself would simply cease to exist. HsiuqsYgnops said: Yeah, basically this.SAO is an Isekai. If we use Isekai to describe an anime where they transport into a new world than SAO is still an isekai. A digital world is still another world. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| So in SAO with the girl that was in VR 24/7 cause she was dying, she's basically isekai but not everyone else, right? Cause that's the same concept. It's just an advanced verision of the VR we already have. To think VR is actually another world is rediculous. That's like saying your favorite planet in our solar system is Skyrim. |
| Whether it's technically a different world or not, most 'trapped in VR' stories (SAO included) follow the same themes and tropes present in most isekai, which I'd argue is more important to defining a genre than individual plot details. The characters are trapped, in a fantasy-themed setting no less, and the story revolves around them trying escape while facing challenges unique to the world/place/hallucination in which they find themselves. The only significant difference is that a magical handwave is replaced by a technobabble one. |
| No one in SAO was transported to another world. They all voluntarily eent there for one. And they're all literally in bed playing a game. It can't be isekai. It's similar. But it's not. |
PsychoticDave said: You're confusing the mechanic with the story genre.So in SAO with the girl that was in VR 24/7 cause she was dying, she's basically isekai but not everyone else, right? Cause that's the same concept. It's just an advanced verision of the VR we already have. To think VR is actually another world is rediculous. That's like saying your favorite planet in our solar system is Skyrim. "Isekai" is a story genre. It is about what kind of story is being told. The story is a fantastical journey through a world other than the real world. Individual characters are not "isekai", because that's a descriptor that applies to a whole story. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
GlennMagusHarvey said: PsychoticDave said: You're confusing the mechanic with the story genre.So in SAO with the girl that was in VR 24/7 cause she was dying, she's basically isekai but not everyone else, right? Cause that's the same concept. It's just an advanced verision of the VR we already have. To think VR is actually another world is rediculous. That's like saying your favorite planet in our solar system is Skyrim. "Isekai" is a story genre. It is about what kind of story is being told. The story is a fantastical journey through a world other than the real world. Individual characters are not "isekai", because that's a descriptor that applies to a whole story. There we go! You're starting to get it! It's a mechanic, not a genre. Thanks for confirming it. Cause it's literally the same shit different person. |
| Digital/VR world / dream world plots where the characters don't actually go to another world, but rather just experience something like it through some sort of simulation is basically "Fake Isekai" in much the same manner as High Fructose Corn Syrup is "Fake Sugar" and a Mac is a "Fake PC" - and are therefore not as good. I don't appreciate a "pussy-out" story where nothing really happens "because it was all just a dream/simulation". Real Isekai anime are awesome, cool stories where the characters go out and gain tangible achievements in a different kind of environment. They are the gold standard of the fantasy genre - where viewers can live their dreams through the characters. Simulated ("Fake") Isekai adds yet another layer of abstraction between the character(s) and the reader(s)/viewer(s) that ultimately detracts from the whole experience. Fake Isekai is a shitstain on the genre that gives good isekai anime/manga/novels a bad rap. |
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Nyaa said: Digital/VR world / dream world plots where the characters don't actually go to another world, but rather just experience something like it through some sort of simulation is basically "Fake Isekai" in much the same manner as High Fructose Corn Syrup is "Fake Sugar" and a Mac is a "Fake PC" - and are therefore not as good. I don't appreciate a "pussy-out" story where nothing really happens "because it was all just a dream/simulation". Real Isekai anime are awesome, cool stories where the characters go out and gain tangible achievements in a different kind of environment. They are the gold standard of the fantasy genre - where viewers can live their dreams through the characters. Simulated ("Fake") Isekai adds yet another layer of abstraction between the character(s) and the reader(s)/viewer(s) that ultimately detracts from the whole experience. Fake Isekai is a shitstain on the genre that gives good isekai anime/manga/novels a bad rap. To add onto this; there's no evidence to suggest Kirito would have died irl if he died in the game. More than likely his headsets microwave feature wouldn't work because he's the MC and that's how storytelling goes. |
PsychoticDave said: Well, you may use the term to mean the mechanic, but I use it to mean the genre, since it's normally used to refer to a type of story.GlennMagusHarvey said: You're confusing the mechanic with the story genre. "Isekai" is a story genre. It is about what kind of story is being told. The story is a fantastical journey through a world other than the real world. Individual characters are not "isekai", because that's a descriptor that applies to a whole story. There we go! You're starting to get it! It's a mechanic, not a genre. Thanks for confirming it. Cause it's literally the same shit different person. PsychoticDave said: If you're creating your own "what if" scenario then complaining he has plot armor doesn't even make sense because at that point you're coming up with the scenario yourself.there's no evidence to suggest Kirito would have died irl if he died in the game. More than likely his headsets microwave feature wouldn't work because he's the MC and that's how storytelling goes. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| @GlennMagusHarvey So when I play Beat Saber, I'm in a whole new world? Cause SAO is literally just better VR. It can't be isekai. It makes absolutely no sense. |
PsychoticDave said: Well your attention is certainly in the game! But you aren't isekai, because you aren't a story about getting stuck in the unreal world of Beat Saber, even if you get completely so engrossed you forget what's going on around you.@GlennMagusHarvey So when I play Beat Saber, I'm in a whole new world? Cause SAO is literally just better VR. It can't be isekai. It makes absolutely no sense. The technology used in the setting of SAO is VR, basically. However, the story traits of the SAO story, based on how it's told, from our perspective in our real world, make it an isekai story. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
GlennMagusHarvey said: PsychoticDave said: Well your attention is certainly in the game! But you aren't isekai, because you aren't a story about getting stuck in the unreal world of Beat Saber, even if you get completely so engrossed you forget what's going on around you.@GlennMagusHarvey So when I play Beat Saber, I'm in a whole new world? Cause SAO is literally just better VR. It can't be isekai. It makes absolutely no sense. The technology used in the setting of SAO is VR, basically. However, the story traits of the SAO story, based on how it's told, from our perspective in our real world, make it an isekai story. So when I play Skyrim VR (better example), it's isekai because I can do whatever I want and make my own story, right? SAO is a video game. Not a world. It's not isekai. |
| EXACTLY OP! Thank You! SAO is NOT an Isekai! I don't know where people got this idea. The dudes are literally playing a video game. How is playing a video game the same as dying or being transported to a whole nother world/universe? Spoilers: It's not. I don't care about the consequences of losing the game. Nor do i care about how it feels "real" to the characters. They're still here, on Earth. Thus it is not an Isekai. The word Isekai literally means Otherworld. |
Read Toriko!  |
PsychoticDave said: Skyrim VR is not an isekai, unless there's something in there about your character being transported to a world that is he/she understands to be something other than what he/she knows as her/his real world. To my understanding, there's none of that.GlennMagusHarvey said: Well your attention is certainly in the game! But you aren't isekai, because you aren't a story about getting stuck in the unreal world of Beat Saber, even if you get completely so engrossed you forget what's going on around you. The technology used in the setting of SAO is VR, basically. However, the story traits of the SAO story, based on how it's told, from our perspective in our real world, make it an isekai story. So when I play Skyrim VR (better example), it's isekai because I can do whatever I want and make my own story, right? SAO is a video game. Not a world. It's not isekai. You playing Skyrim VR is not an isekai because you are not a story. Joe Schmoe, however, could write a story about you having your mind zapped into the world of Skyrim one day and living your life there for a while. That would be an isekai story. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| I think the main reason I have no problem seeing SAO or Log Horizon as isekai is because I played .hack//G.U.. Even without the whole V.R. thing, the experience of dealing with real world stuff (with the news and the desktop, for instance) while going and interacting with a whole new and interesting world gave all the vibes a true isekai would give. Playing The World (the name of .hack's MMO) gives off an otherworldly (no pun intended) experience unmatched even by actual MMOs and most RPGs. So yeah, I understand your reasoning and people who don't consider MMORPGs anime isekai, but I believe they can be thrown into the bunch. |
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phantom346 said: EXACTLY OP! Thank You! SAO is NOT an Isekai! I don't know where people got this idea. The dudes are literally playing a video game. How is playing a video game the same as dying or being transported to a whole nother world/universe? Spoilers: It's not. I don't care about the consequences of losing the game. Nor do i care about how it feels "real" to the characters. They're still here, on Earth. Thus it is not an Isekai. The word Isekai literally means Otherworld. While I can understand the technicalities being discussed here, I think it misses a fundamental point in terms of genre conventions. Mainly, regardless of whether SAO fits in with a modern interpretation or definition of Isekai, the fact that it was a forerunner and inspiration of the isekai shows to follow would make it one. It would be like denying Psycho is a proto-slasher film because it doesn't follow the tropes of modern slashers in spite of the fact that it was a clear influence and made slashers as a film genre what they came to be. I would thus argue that, in terms of influence and contributions to the genre, SAO would have to qualify as an isekai regardless of whether or not the characters in it physically go to another world or not. The very fact that there is a pre and post SAO in terms of the isekai genre and how its tropes manifested is proof enough on its own that the show deserves to be categorized within the genre. |
GlennMagusHarvey said: PsychoticDave said: Skyrim VR is not an isekai, unless there's something in there about your character being transported to a world that is he/she understands to be something other than what he/she knows as her/his real world. To my understanding, there's none of that.So when I play Skyrim VR (better example), it's isekai because I can do whatever I want and make my own story, right? SAO is a video game. Not a world. It's not isekai. You playing Skyrim VR is not an isekai because you are not a story. Joe Schmoe, however, could write a story about you having your mind zapped into the world of Skyrim one day and living your life there for a while. That would be an isekai story. Did you know that in the actual game of SAO, no one is transported either? They're just playing a new VR game. The only difference from Skyrim VR is full-dive which is just top-tier VR. It doesn't transport you to parallel universes. It's just a game. So me playing Skyrim VR is as much an isekai as Kirito playing SAO. It's fucking not. It's VR. Isakei requires you to be transported to a parallel universe and all anyone did in SAO was play a game using technology we don't have yet. You've yet to explain how it's isekai despite only being in SAO for less than half of a season then they went home from the hospital taking care of all these NEETs and played more VR games. Inspiration & similarities don't constitute it being isekai. It doesn't match the definition. Simple as that. |
PsychoticDave said: You're repeating yourself over and over again.GlennMagusHarvey said: Skyrim VR is not an isekai, unless there's something in there about your character being transported to a world that is he/she understands to be something other than what he/she knows as her/his real world. To my understanding, there's none of that. You playing Skyrim VR is not an isekai because you are not a story. Joe Schmoe, however, could write a story about you having your mind zapped into the world of Skyrim one day and living your life there for a while. That would be an isekai story. Did you know that in the actual game of SAO, no one is transported either? They're just playing a new VR game. The only difference from Skyrim VR is full-dive which is just top-tier VR. It doesn't transport you to parallel universes. It's just a game. So me playing Skyrim VR is as much an isekai as Kirito playing SAO. It's fucking not. It's VR. Isakei requires you to be transported to a parallel universe and all anyone did in SAO was play a game using technology we don't have yet. You've yet to explain how it's isekai despite only being in SAO for less than half of a season then they went home from the hospital taking care of all these NEETs and played more VR games. Kirito playing SAO is not isekai by itself. The story's portrayal of this -- by focusing on his journey through the virtual world -- is what makes the story isekai. I thought we already went over this -- you use "isekai" to refer to the in-universe mechanic, and I use "isekai" to refer to the out-of-universe genre classification of the story itself. But for some reason you can't seem to get this difference, which is why you're saying silly things to me like "so when I play Skyrim is it an isekai?". |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
GlennMagusHarvey said: PsychoticDave said: You're repeating yourself over and over again.Did you know that in the actual game of SAO, no one is transported either? They're just playing a new VR game. The only difference from Skyrim VR is full-dive which is just top-tier VR. It doesn't transport you to parallel universes. It's just a game. So me playing Skyrim VR is as much an isekai as Kirito playing SAO. It's fucking not. It's VR. Isakei requires you to be transported to a parallel universe and all anyone did in SAO was play a game using technology we don't have yet. You've yet to explain how it's isekai despite only being in SAO for less than half of a season then they went home from the hospital taking care of all these NEETs and played more VR games. Kirito playing SAO is not isekai by itself. The story's portrayal of this -- by focusing on his journey through the virtual world -- is what makes the story isekai. I thought we already went over this -- you use "isekai" to refer to the in-universe mechanic, and I use "isekai" to refer to the out-of-universe genre classification of the story itself. The story itself doesn't make it an isekai. Being transported to a parallel universe makes it an isekai. And that didn't happen. I'm going by definition, so I think I outrank you. Still ignoring the whole part about how they aren't even in SAO for half a season, so how could the whole season be isekai thing I see. There's a big difference between being in a world where reality follows video game logic and actually being in a video game. Also pretty sure in isekai you can't go back, but that may just be the ones I've seen which is why I haven't mentioned it. |
PsychoticDaveFeb 27, 2019 9:28 PM
| "Isekai" is a very vague genre. It is as ambiguous as "highschool". Depending on the views of the watcher, an anime may or may not be an isekai. |
PsychoticDave said: > outrankGlennMagusHarvey said: You're repeating yourself over and over again. Kirito playing SAO is not isekai by itself. The story's portrayal of this -- by focusing on his journey through the virtual world -- is what makes the story isekai. I thought we already went over this -- you use "isekai" to refer to the in-universe mechanic, and I use "isekai" to refer to the out-of-universe genre classification of the story itself. The story itself doesn't make it an isekai. Being transported to a parallel universe makes it an isekai. And that didn't happen. I'm going by definition, so I think I outrank you. lolwut? what kind of "rank" is this and how does it have anything to do with whether SAO is an isekai story? An isekai story is a story about a character's journey through a world that to them is not their real world, often because they're trapped in that unreal world one way or another. And that's what happens in the show Sword Art Online. If you're talking about what happens to players of the game "Sword Art Online" within the show we in our real world know as by the same name of Sword Art Online, then, no, it's mechanically not isekai. Perhaps this juxtaposition will help: * the VRMMORPG "Sword Art Online", in-universe: not isekai, though it's plausible that some characters might comment that it was an isekai-like experience. * the anime series Sword Art Online: isekai, at least in part, because the story focuses on the virtual-world experiences of those players trapped inside the game. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
GlennMagusHarvey said: PsychoticDave said: > outrankThe story itself doesn't make it an isekai. Being transported to a parallel universe makes it an isekai. And that didn't happen. I'm going by definition, so I think I outrank you. lolwut? what kind of "rank" is this and how does it have anything to do with whether SAO is an isekai story? An isekai story is a story about a character's journey through a world that to them is not their real world, often because they're trapped in that unreal world one way or another. And that's what happens in the show Sword Art Online. If you're talking about what happens to players of the game "Sword Art Online" within the show we in our real world know as by the same name of Sword Art Online, then, no, it's mechanically not isekai. Perhaps this juxtaposition will help: * the VRMMORPG "Sword Art Online", in-universe: not isekai, though it's plausible that some characters might comment that it was an isekai-like experience. * the anime series Sword Art Online: isekai, at least in part, because the story focuses on the virtual-world experiences of those players trapped inside the game.  By definition, SAO is not an isekai. He's playing a game. He wasn't sent in any way to a parallel universe. Kirito knew of SAO and had been there multiple times before he was trapped. He was familiar with most of the game. It was more his world than real life. That was like a big thing. |
Chrome_Falcon said: Heh, yeah, this basically applies to every genre at the margins."Isekai" is a very vague genre. It is as ambiguous as "highschool". Depending on the views of the watcher, an anime may or may not be an isekai. I've esen people say that Magic Knight Rayearth isn't isekai because isekai as a genre label should only be applied to shows that follow this particular current fad/tradition, as inspired in part by Sword Art Online (regardless of whether SAO is isekai, there's no doubt at all that it heavily influenced the genre's popularity). Needless to say, I disagree with the idea of not calling a thing a certain genre just because it wasn't intentionally conceived in the same way. After all, genre labels are sometimes invented a long, long time after a work has been created. The term "classical music" was not a thing during Mozart's time, for example. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
PsychoticDave said: GlennMagusHarvey said: You're repeating yourself over and over again. Kirito playing SAO is not isekai by itself. The story's portrayal of this -- by focusing on his journey through the virtual world -- is what makes the story isekai. I thought we already went over this -- you use "isekai" to refer to the in-universe mechanic, and I use "isekai" to refer to the out-of-universe genre classification of the story itself. The story itself doesn't make it an isekai. Being transported to a parallel universe makes it an isekai. And that didn't happen. I'm going by definition, so I think I outrank you. Still ignoring the whole part about how they aren't even in SAO for half a season, so how could the whole season be isekai thing I see. There's a big difference between being in a world where reality follows video game logic and actually being in a video game. Also pretty sure in isekai you can't go back, but that may just be the ones I've seen which is why I haven't mentioned it. This whole argument is kind of irrelevant though, as we are talking about a genre and not a scientific phenomenon. Genres are defined by their conventions and tropes, which separate them from other genres. And in terms of genre, while going to another world is certainly part of the isekai genre, I would argue it isn't even one of the most important tropes of said genre. The thing that really seems to make it is that, whatever the other world is, it has some kind video game type interface. That is why something like Inuyasha, despite totally falling within the category of isekai, isn't the first thing one thinks of when imagining the genre. And, since a great deal of that second trope I mentioned is due to the success and popularity of SAO, it deserves to be considered part of the genre, as you can't really explain how the genre developed without it. Then as a final P.S., I would say even practically that your definition doesn't work, as it would exclude one of the more popular Isekais out there: Overlord. In overlord, it is never clear whether the MC was actually transported to another world or whether this was just some horrible accident in the VR game he was playing. By your definition, since it is not explicitly clear that the MC was psychically transported, mind body and soul, to this other world, than the show doesn't qualify. |
FlagCrusherTaka said: PsychoticDave said: The story itself doesn't make it an isekai. Being transported to a parallel universe makes it an isekai. And that didn't happen. I'm going by definition, so I think I outrank you. Still ignoring the whole part about how they aren't even in SAO for half a season, so how could the whole season be isekai thing I see. There's a big difference between being in a world where reality follows video game logic and actually being in a video game. Also pretty sure in isekai you can't go back, but that may just be the ones I've seen which is why I haven't mentioned it. This whole argument is kind of irrelevant though, as we are talking about a genre and not a scientific phenomenon. Genres are defined by their conventions and tropes, which separate them from other genres. And in terms of genre, while going to another world is certainly part of the isekai genre, I would argue it isn't even one of the most important tropes of said genre. The thing that really seems to make it is that, whatever the other world is, it has some kind video game type interface. That is why something like Inuyasha, despite totally falling within the category of isekai, isn't the first thing one thinks of when imagining the genre. And, since a great deal of that second trope I mentioned is due to the success and popularity of SAO, it deserves to be considered part of the genre, as you can't really explain how the genre developed without it. Then as a final P.S., I would say even practically that your definition doesn't work, as it would exclude one of the more popular Isekais out there: Overlord. In overlord, it is never clear whether the MC was actually transported to another world or whether this was just some horrible accident in the VR game he was playing. By your definition, since it is not explicitly clear that the MC was psychically transported, mind body and soul, to this other world, than the show doesn't qualify. InuYasha is time travel, not isekai. Please don't do this. Overlord was pretty open in the first episode about it being an isekai. I don't get what you mean. Difference between Overlord and SAO is that in Overlord the game became real (like a bad rip off of Log Horizon) and in SAO, it's just a game the whole time. |
PsychoticDave said: Looks like (1) you are being a stickler on whether a virtual world can count as a parallel universe, and (2) you know how to screenshot text on Wikipedia.GlennMagusHarvey said: > outrank lolwut? what kind of "rank" is this and how does it have anything to do with whether SAO is an isekai story? An isekai story is a story about a character's journey through a world that to them is not their real world, often because they're trapped in that unreal world one way or another. And that's what happens in the show Sword Art Online. If you're talking about what happens to players of the game "Sword Art Online" within the show we in our real world know as by the same name of Sword Art Online, then, no, it's mechanically not isekai. Perhaps this juxtaposition will help: * the VRMMORPG "Sword Art Online", in-universe: not isekai, though it's plausible that some characters might comment that it was an isekai-like experience. * the anime series Sword Art Online: isekai, at least in part, because the story focuses on the virtual-world experiences of those players trapped inside the game. [image that is simply the text of part of the first paragraph of Wikipedia's article on isekai] By definition, SAO is not an isekai. He's playing a game. He wasn't sent in any way to a parallel universe. Kirito knew of SAO and had been there multiple times before he was trapped. He was familiar with most of the game. It was more his world than real life. That was like a big thing. Well, you should have checked a little lower on that same page, because it says this:  |
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| There are two approaches to this: 1- Isekai as in "Parallel World", which in that case, SAO wouldn't be, but Aincrad would be debatable, and Alicization would be. 2- Isekai as a "formula", were SAO wouldn't be, nor Aincrad, but Alicization would. (Though, treating is as a formula may bring debate if we could consider series were is actually time-travel as isekai (e.g. Amatsuki), or any series were our characters go to a distant place, but in the same world). SAO (Aincrad) wouldn't be because you can't really differ it from "What if every character just traveled to another country?" While series like Log Horizon and the Alicization arc could be considered isekai as our characters go to a world with an already stablished story and characters of it's own. |
GlennMagusHarvey said: PsychoticDave said: Looks like (1) you are being a stickler on whether a virtual world can count as a parallel universe, and (2) you know how to screenshot text on Wikipedia.[image that is simply the text of part of the first paragraph of Wikipedia's article on isekai] By definition, SAO is not an isekai. He's playing a game. He wasn't sent in any way to a parallel universe. Kirito knew of SAO and had been there multiple times before he was trapped. He was familiar with most of the game. It was more his world than real life. That was like a big thing. Well, you should have checked a little lower on that same page, because it says this: Yeah, I noticed. A lot of stupid people agreeing doesn't change definitions or facts. P-Edit: I do agree that Alicization is isekai though. |
PsychoticDaveFeb 27, 2019 9:50 PM
PsychoticDave said: So, essentially, you've declared yourself to be right, and everyone who disagrees with you to be stupid.GlennMagusHarvey said: Looks like (1) you are being a stickler on whether a virtual world can count as a parallel universe, and (2) you know how to screenshot text on Wikipedia. Well, you should have checked a little lower on that same page, because it says this: Yeah, I noticed. A lot of stupid people agreeing doesn't change definitions and facts. |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
PsychoticDave said: FlagCrusherTaka said: This whole argument is kind of irrelevant though, as we are talking about a genre and not a scientific phenomenon. Genres are defined by their conventions and tropes, which separate them from other genres. And in terms of genre, while going to another world is certainly part of the isekai genre, I would argue it isn't even one of the most important tropes of said genre. The thing that really seems to make it is that, whatever the other world is, it has some kind video game type interface. That is why something like Inuyasha, despite totally falling within the category of isekai, isn't the first thing one thinks of when imagining the genre. And, since a great deal of that second trope I mentioned is due to the success and popularity of SAO, it deserves to be considered part of the genre, as you can't really explain how the genre developed without it. Then as a final P.S., I would say even practically that your definition doesn't work, as it would exclude one of the more popular Isekais out there: Overlord. In overlord, it is never clear whether the MC was actually transported to another world or whether this was just some horrible accident in the VR game he was playing. By your definition, since it is not explicitly clear that the MC was psychically transported, mind body and soul, to this other world, than the show doesn't qualify. InuYasha is time travel, not isekai. Please don't do this. Overlord was pretty open in the first episode about it being an isekai. I don't get what you mean. Difference between Overlord and SAO is that in Overlord the game became real (like a bad rip off of Log Horizon) and in SAO, it's just a game the whole time. given the kind of tech that is used in the VR in that show, I think an equally plausible interpretation is that everything he witnesses is the result of a fever dream MC has while in a coma as he slowly starves to death in his apartment. |
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