Daniel_Naumov said: I acknowledged what you said and asked for elaboration, which you did not give. All you've done is refute and provide nothing else that adds to your refutation.Lunilah said: No, i don't deny the humans to be able to measure objectivity, even in introspection. I don't care about the public's opinion, and only 1 of us has provided an argument. What i care about is learning and understanding, but all you seem to want to do is be on your high horse dismissing everything i say because you're so far above the rest of us instead of having an actual conversation. You refused to acknowledge what I said two times, hypocritically calling for a conversation will end up being your public humiliation. Fool me once, a shame me. Fool me twice, a shame to you. There is no third time here. If you think me being open to learn is publicly humiliating, i don't know what to tell you. |
 I don't believe in the Devil. You should. He believes in you. |
inim said: Chiibi said: GotF is a special case because it's a true story based on a famous autobiographic novel, any school kid in Japan knows how it ends. Reminds me of a true anecdote where I was accused to "spoiler" the end of Rose of Versailles when I said the French Revolution happens ... I mean, it's not that most people wouldn't know how Marie-Antoinette and her Royal husband ended.Grave of the Fireflies is one such title for me. Loads of people praise it...but I didn't cry at all. I don't know who these kids are! Besides you know they're gonna die before the movie even starts! I know it's a true story but it still didn't deliver any emotional impact. Like I said, I don't know these kids. In contrast to Violet Evergarden...even though a lot of characters only had one episode each, it was enough to get to know them. The story of the little girl and her sick mother writing letters for the future just ripped my heart out. |
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| I don't like this whole "manipulating" concept. Some animes are clearly meant to be sad/dramatic, and I don't give a crap. But some hit a chord with me, and then I will cry. Not because it's being manipulative, but because I see myself in some way with the anime. I didn't cry for Your Name, but some of my friends did. I cried for YLIA, some of my friends didn't cry very much at all. |
"Whether you're sad, you're hurt, or empty, you have to keep playing."  |
| Does catharsis degrade a work of drama? |
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Daniel_Naumov said: Right, wrong word usage, the same way the thread question is the wrong word usage, that's the joke. Kosmonaut said: Does catharsis degrade a work of drama? Bzzzzzzt. Wrong word usage. Catharsis happens to the viewer independently from the authors wishes. Tension (the relief of which is encompassed in the concept you used out of place - the catharsis) cannot be a manipulative tool as it is a part of the story. Whether the story is written badly or not, the tension might or might not exist. Putting tension into a story as a part of manipulative strategy from the authors side? It will instantaneously become evident whether tension has place in the story or not. What you are talking about is over-dramatization, to an extent. A sign of a hopeful or an inexperienced writer. Has little to do with the manipulative tools perused by, say, the most notorious Violet Evergarden. 'Emotional provocation' doesn't degrade a work, because 'being emotionally provocated' is born from the audience, not from the work; the same way going through catharsis is an audience issue, not a work issue. Whether the 'tools' were used to incite that reaction consciously or not is debating authorial intent, which is different from what makes a work well-written or not. Attempting to elicit an emotional response from the audience isn't degrading in itself, as with every other aspect, it's the insufficient, unintended or inadequate usage of techniques that degrades it. Unfortunately not all art works can be a masterpiece as Darling in the FranXX, I'm afraid. |
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Kyonui said: These criticisms, when used by others, are irrelevant to me when I rate a story. Or, at least, I think they ought to be irrelevant to me."Emotionally manipulative" "Melodramatic". Does these terms in general, if implemented, downgrade an anime? Regardless of its' type of execution, can its' sole presence influence your way of scoring an anime? As for myself using these terms, I find that I rarely do. (I think the only two series I can remember criticizing for "melodrama" is Symphogear's first season and Mai-HiME.) On the other hand, if the story doesn't move me, but instead just rattles on with words, I'm more likely to criticize it for being "dry". |
| Avatar character is Gabriel from Gabriel DropOut. |
| Has anime gotten so vapid now, that we have to ask this question? For me, the answer is obviously no. I love this kind of shit. I would argue, that, it's a contributing factor, to what turns an "alright" piece of media into a masterpiece. Anything that doesn't manipulate your emotions in any way, is likely as engaging as watching paint dry. |
 This ground is soiled by those before me and their lies. I dare not look up for on me I feel their eyes |
| There are some animes where I do get the impression that I'm being 'manipulated' to feel a certain way. I enjoy subtlety, so I'm put off by extremely emotional animes because it makes me feel as if they're pouring it on to elicit more of a reaction. I'm less likely to enjoy it, I suppose, if there's an abundance of melodrama. |
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Daniel_Naumov said: Kata89 said: But some hit a chord with me, and then I will cry. Not because it's being manipulative, but because I see myself in some way with the anime. You are manipulated into being this way. The manipulation in question is defined (after a thorough analysis of the series) as provoking emotional response without having any meaning or actual developing story behind it. When the author offers nothing, but instead takes your "response" and forces you to accumulate mental fatigue, it is called a manipulation. Of course, every series is a case study. I get what you're saying, but my counter would be that any well-written series has actual meaning and a story behind that is worth provoking an emotional response. Case in point, here are shows which got huge emotional responses out of me: - YLIA: I was depressed, didn't know who I was. I was in a dark place, and I could see my self in the main character. His progression and the lessons he learned through the other characters TRULY taught me how to live. I wept for this. Not because it was manipulative, but because it meant something. - Clannad: A lesson in contentedness. I am at the point in my life where I could/can relate to the characters as they are finding their paths, going into the world, and becoming adults. And then, when life seems perfect, things go wrong. That's whats so beautiful about it, and its a powerful reminder for me as someone who looks up to the characters of the show. I cried. A lot. - Anohana: A picture of how people split apart, and the pain that takes work to heal. Every character is so broken, and through the events of the show, they heal. If they can heal, why can I not heal? Why can I not reconnect with old friends? Why can I not move on? Each of these shows A LOT of people use as the "tragedy porn" series which are just being manipulative to make you cry. And heck, they are definitely employing techniques to make you emotional. But being manipulative is a horrible description. For people like me who found deep meaning and value in these shows, they are not just "sad" shows, but genuine works of art which acted as a mirror into our own lives. That has meaning, that has value, and that isn't being manipulative. I can think of some examples which probably are being more "manipulative", but even then... who am I to say they don't have value or depth? Angel Beats was sad, and I teared up... but I didn't really get it. But for many people, it meant the world to them. When I think back to the shows which touched me, you can see how it connects to my life, and how at the moment I watched it, it touched me. If I watched YLIA now post-depression, it probably wouldn't have made me weep. But that show literally saved my life at the time, and for that it's a treasure. Sorry, super long tangent. Point is, we only get truly emotional if we can connect to the anime and to the characters within it. |
"Whether you're sad, you're hurt, or empty, you have to keep playing." |
Chiibi said: Several points. First, that arc with the letters for the future indeed is the only memorable arc in VE, which for me saved it a "mediocre" rating. If it was missing, it would go below average.inim said: Like I said, I don't know these kids.. In contrast to Violet Evergarden...even though a lot of characters only had one episode each, it was enough to get to know them. The story of the little girl and her sick mother writing letters for the future just ripped my heart out.it's a true story based on a famous autobiographic novel, any school kid in Japan knows how it ends. Second, you don't know the side chars in VE either after 20 mins. You have seen their stereotype, mainly "rich old family", 1001 times. They are bland otherwise, no other traits than being rich and sad. And that you are unable to connect to children which technically were born 100 years ago, well, not totally suprising. My father is from the generation of those kids (born 1930s) and he told me a lot of war time memories. Germany and Japan were fairly similar during the war, so I recognize many small things you probably miss. The link via first hand reports by my parents improves my viewing experience of movies like GotF, Ushiro no Shoumen Daare, Ohoshi-sama no Rail or Kono Sekai no Katasumi ni a lot. And this is even more true because I know how realistic and "true" those stories are, as compared to fully artificial cry-porn like VE. |
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| Apparently some people think that being emotionally tortured is the main point in art and entertainment. Like action, solving logical puzzles, interesting themes, important messages or simply the aesthetic pleasure of seeing or hearing some well done art is redundant for them. Thus everyone suggesting that crying around 5 times in an episode is a bit unbalanced must be some sort of psycho or a toxic troll. |
inim said: And this is even more true because I know how realistic and "true" those stories are, as compared to fully artificial cry-porn like VE. I don't think of VE as "artificial cry porn" though...it's not like EVERY episode was even a tragic one. Some were just heart-warming. VE's plot was "getting an emotionless PTSD girl to understand the meaning of love". And then each episode covered the different types of that love. What is wrong with this? Grave was just like "Watch these children suffer and die in misery cause war is bad and the creator who made it felt bad since it's his lifestory" Which sounds more like "tragedy cry porn"? The first story sounds far more appealing to me...and it turns out that it was. |
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| To answer this, first an explanation is needed: Usually animes that try to be drama focus all they have on the tragedy.They add no fight scenes, no plot or twists,etc. Well that of course leaves us with drama alone.That's a huge gamble.If the drama is successful the anime will win.If it doesn't, the anime a complete failure. That is of course the idea of drama is different for most people. |
| شقایق، اینجا من، خیلی غریبم |
Chiibi said: VE by a mile, it's what you get when you have story writer brainstorming and implement the complete list of "What are the saddest plot vehicles you can think of". Your perception and mileage may vary, but I can't think of MORE artificial cry porn than VE, beats even YLIA in this discipline. Though YLIA is executed far worse than VE, which makes it the worse anime overall.inim said: Which sounds more like "tragedy cry porn"?And this is even more true because I know how realistic and "true" those stories are, as compared to fully artificial cry-porn like VE. |
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inim said: Chiibi said: VE by a mile, it's what you get when you have story writer brainstorming and implement the complete list of "What are the saddest plot vehicles you can think of". Your perception and mileage may vary, but I can't think of MORE artificial cry porn than VE, beats even YLIA in this discipline. Though YLIA is executed far worse than VE, which makes it the worse anime overall.Which sounds more like "tragedy cry porn"? Lol I'm not going to agree with you so you can quit trying now. ARE YOU FOR REAL? VE IS THE WORST CRY PORN YOU CAN THINK OF? VE actually has a happy ending. SO many 'cry porn' anime in fact DO NOT. You live under a rock if you think VE's story is worse than something like https://myanimelist.net/anime/529/Saishuu_Heiki_Kanojo, sorry. Hell, most stories by Key are worse than VE. Especially Air. And I LOVE Air...but I won't pretend it's not cry porn....because it is. lol |
ChiibiMay 26, 2020 11:45 AM
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Chiibi said: I haven't seen many other of that type because I avoid them. E.g. I haven't seen any Key adaptations (and probably never will). As for worse cry porn: VE still got a 6/10 from me, it wasn't totally bad - same as AnoHana. Worse examples are Angel Beats (5/10), Shin Shirayuki-hime Densetsu Prétear and of course YLIA (4/10).inim said: I'm not going to agree with you so you can quit trying now. ARE YOU FOR REAL? VE IS THE WORST CRY PORN YOU CAN THINK OF?VE by a mile Oh, and I don't try to make you "agree", your taste is as good as mine. I just tried to answer your question "Who are those kids, I don't understand them". I'm one of them (even when age wise I'm an older man), and explained my rationale behind it. |
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inim said: I haven't seen many other of that type because I avoid them. Ah, that explains it. The magical girl show? o_o Are you sure...I mean, it's not even that sad...aside from Himeno's mother...but again, very happy ending. I think I laughed more than I cried. xD |
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Chiibi said: A "Happy Ending" (which is subjecitve anyway) and being a tear jerker are not mutually exclusive at all. Else the Josei and mature Shoujo genre would cease to exist in large parts, lolinim said: Ah, that explains it.I haven't seen many other of that type because I avoid them. (...) but again, very happy ending. I think I laughed more than I cried. xD And maybe I should be a bit constructive and list a few tear jerkers I really liked (as in 7/10 or better). Maybe you want to give one of them a shot. Pure cheese: https://myanimelist.net/anime/2623/Flanders_no_Inu_Movie https://myanimelist.net/anime/33091/Planetarian__Chiisana_Hoshi_no_Yume https://myanimelist.net/anime/35839/Sora_yori_mo_Tooi_Basho https://myanimelist.net/anime/12355/Ookami_Kodomo_no_Ame_to_Yuki Cheese + some tragic drama: https://myanimelist.net/anime/21027/Saibi https://myanimelist.net/anime/3420/Shigofumi https://myanimelist.net/anime/2238/Fuyu_no_Semi https://myanimelist.net/anime/2199/Chirin_no_Suzu https://myanimelist.net/anime/44/Rurouni_Kenshin__Meiji_Kenkaku_Romantan_-_Tsuioku-hen |
inimMay 26, 2020 12:44 PM
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Yeah, I have this one...people were hyping about how sad it is...but I'm not even sure if I cried. xD THIS. THIS.... THIS FCKED ME UP REALLY BAD FOR LIKE THREE DAYS. Utter devastation. And made for little kids at that. lol |
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| Lol Danny, there's no reason to get jealous. :D ALL forms of entertainment are emotionally manipulative though? If they aren't that means you would feel "nothing". |
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| The fact that a piece of media managed to move you emotionally basically means it manage to nail the way the scenes and story present themselves, this kinda stuff requires great timing, sound direction and animation to emotionally manipulate you. Its something a lot of animes or story telling medias fail at all the time, and if you succeed at making the anime known for being a tear jerker it means you nailed the production to make it all click together. Even if the feelings you get are slightly artificial and you won't actually care about it in 2 seconds, you were still affected by the great production that lead you to this and sold the scene for you The production of the anime has a lot to do with how we view a scene and as I said, its really easy to mess up and not convey the feelings you truly want to. Another thing is how making you emotionally invested, even if its done with some teary scenes, will automatically get you much more invested in the story. You're probably gonna care so much more about what's gonna happen next, and the anime itself is gonna be remembered a lot more by people, making it a bigger contender for a classic. A lot animes that are still talked about despite having ended years ago are ones that were known to be emotional. People remember it and it's great for business and capitalisation on the series. i remember violet evergarden much better than anything else that came in winter 2018 (devilman crybaby, yuru camp, darling in the franxx) because of how well it emotionally manipulated me Anyway, if you ask me, degrading an anime for emotionally moving you is basically degrading it for the great production it had. Also sidenote but I feel like the psychological effect done by sound animation and timing isn't that different than those same 3 ingredients being used to hype you up and making you a lot more excited to see the action, a trick that is being abused in most battle shounenes or the stuff gainax/trigger made |
yotiMay 26, 2020 3:27 PM
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