Rokka no Yuusha Episode 11 Discussion

CookingPriest said:


Yeah I felt it relied too much on things the viewer had no way of knowing(fake barriers, seventh having an acomplice, half the rules we knew being fake, etc).

I mean it all fits together nicely and all but If there's one thing disappointing about this mystery it is the fact that there's no way a viewer could have put it all together on their own.

If I were to do this story I would have made Adlet and everyone else a lot more ambiguous and Adlet's rants and "theories" a lot more crazy and persecution-complex-like so the whole psychological warfare aspect works better. Right now the whole mystery aspect is shaky - after all this show is at its best when you DO NOT know who to trust(including MC himself). And it is at its lowest when "teamwork and trust", forced romance and "Mc explaining convulted theories" happens. Really leaves a kind of unpolished jewel impression so far.

Jagd84 said:
Several people on various forum actually solved the cased unknowingly so no your wrong.

In fact you had all the pieces from as early as episode 4 solve everything. Don't blame the author if your range thinking wasn't board enough.

There nothing convoluted about it all.

Zefyris said:

I already tried to report those long ago. But the problem is since they pretend, we can't prove that they aren't just super intelligent and correctly found out, so they refused some of them. So I completely gave up on those, that's a waste of time to report them, they can't delete those.

There was all the clues needed to solve since SEVERAL EPISODES AGO. You just missed them.

It's eespecially funny yo usay you weren't told when Adlet already gave us an almost completely correct theory last episode. You had one week to work on the part that Fremy pointed out as not working.

Frrrosty said:

This is where we disagree I guess. From my point of view, it was really clever that they used clues from those early episodes, not bad writing. Everything is right in your face, but the answers are concealed by an entire genre shift, which is genius. If you're really invested in this series, then you would go back and re-watch those episodes anyway.

I don't understand what the superfluity about 'preset rules' has to do with anything though, can you please specify? Or what 'bounds of the viewer' your talking about either. If you're talking about Knox's rules, then look at my previous comment. The fact that you have to resort to abstractions like this that are so vague means that I cant' take your opinions seriously.

lready said about that - clues sure were there and I talked about. But the conclusion they lead to and the contrived new info needed to make them fit together is what the asspull is and why nobody could have figured it out without the narrative telling them the answer.

Zefyris said:
So I'm going to ask those complaining that they could not find out because they were lacking some clues what exactly were they still lacking. Hmm? I'm waiting. There was everything.

skudoops said:


Ah ok I was just interchanging them then, because I kept wondering what the hell adlet was the saint of lol.

HaXXspetten said:
It's more that those details shouldn't even be part of the playing field. The truth should be something staring you in the face, but only if you're smart enough to see it. This felt way too off-topic

apokaliz500 said:
Like I said, the only thing lacking was the viwer's science knowledge about how fog is created.

apokaliz500 said:

Goldof had no clue Adlet came up with the Riura idea, tho. So it's not like, from his perspective, he had to hurry before Adlet says that plan. Again, waiting more with killing anyone will make all Braves turn off the barrier later. Also it will delay finding the true one, since until the kill Adlet they cannot know about his innocence, because he has no ways to prove it (that's what Goldof thought).

If acting suspiociously would make you the 7th, Mora would be evil as well. She was behaving suspicious as hell many times, too, so Nashetania being suspicious isn't enough to be a proof.

"1)": This topic was already touched upon in episode 6 thread (I finally went and read it a few hours ago to look for some clues, didn't find much tho), Zefyris (I hope I write the nick right) said the scene is completely explainable, because Nashetania was mad that Adlet insulted the God of Blades.

About the "2)": What exactly would she achieve by breaking it on purpose? That should make people suspicious of her and I'm sure nobody did only because it was so "clear" Adlet activated the barrier.

Also the "3)" kinda prooves her innocence:
1. As a 7th, it would be more wise to keep "believing in Adlet-san" even after Mora says he hurt Hans, because, like you said, she could say "Hans is 7th and Adlet hurt him because he noticed". Then when Adlet dies and they see he wasn't 7th, Nashetania has perfect situation because noone will suspect person who tried to help the innocent guy. Why should she deliberately make her great situation worse by dropping the "Adlet-san is innocent!"?
And why the hell did she even need to pull such an act before Goldof (he was the only one with her when she did that), who not only would do what she says, but himself was convinced Adlet is the 7th?

thebrentinator24 said:

While I did enjoy this episode a lot, I still can't get over how lucky Adlet was with where Riura's body was located. Like seriously, you simply suspect, with no proof, that her body was located inside the dead fiend and voila, it was indeed there?! That is the absolute epitome of luck, I found it a little far-fetched and ridiculous, but what are you gonna do?

black1blade said:
There isn't really any possible way this could have been done otherwise tbh. Writer obviously knew exactly what happened. Maybe the clues where a bit sparse. If there was a scene or something with Adlet thinking about what fog actually was then it may have been a bit more obvious.

Matheine said:
I just loled so hard when Adlet just kick Nashetania in the face

CookingPriest said:


Yeah that moment was one of first major "wait a second shouldn't WE THE VIEWER be able to figure that out without you bringing in random new facts out of your ass?" kind of moment for me with this show.

skudoops said:


Um other than some scenes a lot of the things weren't really possible to figure out because we had no knowledge of the world or the way things worked. The fake barrier for instance.. I mean how many would really figure that out?



Also I just rewatched this scene and when the princess was telling the story she said that 6 heroes would be bestowed her power when the demon god reappears. What did she mean by that then?

Zefyris said:
So I'm going to ask those complaining that they could not find out because they were lacking some clues what exactly were they still lacking. Hmm? I'm waiting. There was everything.


There was no new info needed to make them fit together. No asspull.

Jagd84 said:


Several people on various forum actually solved the cased unknowingly so no your wrong.

In fact you had all the pieces from as early as episode 4 solve everything. Don't blame the author if your range thinking wasn't board enough.

There nothing convoluted about it all.

Frrrosty said:


That is the only thing. If I had to nitpick, this would be it.

apokaliz500 said:
Like I said, the only thing lacking was the viwer's science knowledge about how fog is created.

geralt said:

That's not something the writer is supposed to explain because first it isn't something he made up and while it's basically common knowledge. Like, who doesn't know how condensation works?

CookingPriest said:



Using them in completely illogical way that requires information that the viewer would have no way of knowing at all = bad writing.

skudoops said:

Um other than some scenes a lot of the things weren't really possible to figure out because we had no knowledge of the world or the way things worked. The fake barrier for instance.. I mean how many would really figure that out?

Zeando said:


that aside, i agree with skudoops on the participation in the mystery, a well written mystery which is enjoyable to follow is one where the watcher/reader discovers the mystery alongside the characters, where you see them putting clues together, Before the solution is exposed
this didn't happened, it felt more like a game of random guessing where finally one random guess got confirmed by "luck" :/

cause before discovering the body, the only revealing clue adlet used to base his theory on was the lower temperature :/
which he realized just some minutes before while running away from nashetania
it was like low temperature --> seventh's plan, if anything the explanation was too abrupt and didn't allow the watcher to follow before it got revealed

CookingPriest said:


The info about how barriers work. Throwing out every pre-set parameter like barrier activation, how it is done, when it happened, etc. Randomly finding Riura's body in the middle of huge forest because plot required it for explanation. The twist of private working with the seventh, which had absolutely zero foreshadowing and just appeared out of nowhere last episode.
In these last two or three episodes, the show kept bringing in the new info to make the clues fit. Thus there was absolutely no way to actually figure out what is going on.

The narrative presented us with a mystery. And then in the last part of it suddenly threw out all the parts of it out of the window to answer it. Sure it fits together but without a shitload of things thrown into viewer's face in last two or so episodes, there as no way to actually put the pieces together. And that is bad in terms of writing a mystery.

ANy more and this "trap of the seventh" would be as logical and grounded and explainable as the plans and traps of Lelouch Lamperouge or Light Yagami. As in total nonsense.

darboux said:
1 thing suspicious =coincidence,2 things suspicious=coincidence,3 things suspicious=ok maybe its just coincidence,5+ things sispicious=not coincidence.

If you sit down and write a list with certain things nashetania did/or acted suspiciously ....well there's just so many that it cant just be just coincidence



At least thats how i see it.

The problem with Maura was always how she did it,and there was 1 thing only that made her suspicious.

1)Read the above.Its not just this,its like 10 things that make her suspicious.
2)Because it was the only way to activate the barrier? And no noone found it suspicious or even mentioned because she made sure to sell her persona of innocent princess that does not know anything of the cruel world.
3)Because she is acting that is why.
No what she did was best.She wants to get people killed.At this momment noone can suspect her.Its maura that insists to kill adlet.Next in line is maura.Plus she acted this way for her to not be suspected so everyone would be like poor innocent princess lost her mind so sad.
If she was really legit she would find it logical adlet attacking hans.I mean in her mind hans is the 7th...

The bunny been acting since episode 1.And she did quite a good job of it.Look how maura commented ''princess you not know much of the world''....

CookingPriest said:


The info about how barriers work. Throwing out every pre-set parameter like barrier activation, how it is done, when it happened, etc. Randomly finding Riura's body in the middle of huge forest because plot required it for explanation. The twist of private working with the seventh, which had absolutely zero foreshadowing and just appeared out of nowhere last episode.
In these last two or three episodes, the show kept bringing in the new info to make the clues fit. Thus there was absolutely no way to actually figure out what is going on.

The narrative presented us with a mystery. And then in the last part of it suddenly threw out all the parts of it out of the window to answer it. Sure it fits together but without a shitload of things thrown into viewer's face in last two or so episodes, there as no way to actually put the pieces together. And that is bad in terms of writing a mystery.

ANy more and this "trap of the seventh" would be as logical and grounded and explainable as the plans and traps of Lelouch Lamperouge or Light Yagami. As in total nonsense.

Jagd84 said:


That's partially intentional, furthermore this plan couldn't have worked Riura being in the area nearby because the Fiends needed a signal that Adlet had opened the temple without it coming off as suspicious. The also couldn't bury Riura in the ground because Chamo would most likely be chosen as one of Braves who the power find things in the ground which why Riura was eaten instead. So actually quite logical.

mira-nyan said:

Except why would a Private know about things from the King?

skudoops said:

Um other than some scenes a lot of the things weren't really possible to figure out because we had no knowledge of the world or the way things worked. The fake barrier for instance.. I mean how many would really figure that out?

Frrrosty said:


That is the only thing. If I had to nitpick, this would be it.

black1blade said:
I do agree that Adlet's thought pattern isn't very logical. But you know, lateral thinking ftw.

CookingPriest said:

Then how about presenting us with that mystery.
If this was pre-planned, the information about the activation ritual being misinformation would have been given out to us near the start so the viewer can spend the rest of time figuring out HOW it happened.

Adlet's flashback about his village would also have to happen before that so the viewer would HAVE a train of thought to follow about humans working with fiends.

[ s]Maybe you should stick to fangirling about seiba?[/s]

CookingPriest said:


Majority of the explanations hinges on revelations within last two episodes that are connected together by sheer luck of Adlet suddenly stumbling upon a vital clue in the last second by literally getting kicked to it.

If it was a really well written mystery story, the viewer would not really trust Adlet but would be able to piece it together with what is going on. This is clearly not the case considering half the resolutions last few episodes were about people starting to trust Adlet because he's such a great guy.
If it was an okay written mystery story, the viewer would be able to follow Adlet's line of thought if they are observant enough. This goes out of the window because ADlet's line of thought jumps around every episode and the actual correct line of thought hinged on information he(and the viewer) learned seconds before reveals.

Luck and accidental stumbling upon an answer should NEVER happen in a well laid out mystery - the viewer should have a way to be faster than the protagonist in figuring it out, which was impossible int his case.

RowanNimble said:
I wonder how Hans Convinced Chamot to move from the temple.

Zefyris said:
That's completely fine, because it's not the author who is lacking in his writing, it's the reader who is lacking available common knowledge. It's a very, very common type of trick in detective story. It doesn't break any of the rules of a detective story and is actually extremely clever trick to use when we're in a world with magic.

As for Riura's corpse being there, it's not far fetched either. It's logical. It cannot be hidden anywhere else inside the barrier
Remember, you can't make a hole to burry here. There are things right below the ground everywhere inside the barrier and those things are hard enough to not even get a scratch from Fremy's bomb. You can't put a cadaver in there. So where hiding it? Inside a hollow tree? that cannot be possible? Why? There is no outsider inside the barrier right now. With all Chamo's pet running around, it's pretty clear. Riura needed to be killed exactly when Adlet opened the door. But at that time, everyone (except chamo) was with someone else. So they could not be alone to kill her and hide the corpse. Only a fiend could. But there's no fiend alive. And more importantly, a fiend died somewhere else than where that battle happened would have looked suspicious already, especially a big one that no one reported to have killed. "Hide a tree in the middle of a forest". Whereas trying to hide it somewhere else wasn't completel yimpossible, the easiest and most secure place to hide a cadaver in that forest was definitely in the middle of other big cadavers, because you cannot put it underground.. And even if you could, it was already said by fremy that Chamo's pets could tunnel though the floor. Hiding it below would be risky. So Adlet ran toward the best place to hide it.

The other fiends were not big enough to hide it, that's why they looked for a big one.

mira-nyan said:


You mean the mystery being solved right at the start, rite? >.>

Frrrosty said:

Rokka actually does the opposite compared to other mysteries, it uses new information to debunk ones that are being developed by the audience. That's fine though.

Zefyris said:

Hah? There was no fake barrier, it was explained two episodes ago that another barrier wasn't possible. So you knew that more than two weeks before the reveal. And just to say, the "no fake barrier" isn't a clue, it's something used to destroy some possibilities so that only one remains. So it's necessary for a different reason, and that's why you got the explanation in episode 10.
The clues were all there even before that.
.