KokkoStar said: The SAO one is definitely one. The AoT one I dunno, the only foreshadowing I remember was the injection and that is weaksauce. Alluka is too. It means exactly what I said. I don't get why a good twist would not surprise the viewers. More like its a good twist because it surpises you Also care to elaborate on why is SAO's an asspull |
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hentai_eucli said: AoT: Ckan said: I think it really has to come to examples with this sort of thing. A lot of people will just call twists asspulls because they dislike them, essentially. Okay, how about these three: Shingeki no kyojin Sword art online first season Hunter x Hunter 2011 SAO: I haven't read/seen past the Chimera arc in HxH, so I can't say. |
KokkoStar said: You'll like Terra Formars. don't 2 late. I came, I saw, I cringed and I dropped. |
hentai_eucli said: KokkoStar said: The SAO one is definitely one. The AoT one I dunno, the only foreshadowing I remember was the injection and that is weaksauce. Alluka is too. It means exactly what I said. I don't get why a good twist would not surprise the viewers. More like its a good twist because it surpises you Also care to elaborate on why is SAO's an asspull Oh, a good twist surprises both the characters and the viewers. He's the only one who can use it in an MMO. There was no foreshadowing either. |
Ckan said: AoT: SAO: I haven't read/seen past the Chimera arc in HxH, so I can't say. I see. AOT SAO |
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KokkoStar said: Oh, a good twist surprises both the characters and the viewers. He's the only one who can use it in an MMO. There was no foreshadowing either. Yeah I agree with that then. Its not like there was no foreshadowing at all, but I think I get what you mean. How should have it been introduced, in order for it to not be an asspull? Edit: Oh wait, why is it bad if it only surprises the viewers, I still don't get it |
Futa-chin_KosukiFeb 3, 2015 12:11 AM
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KokkoStar said: A good twist surprises the characters, a bad one only surprises the viewers. I basically agree but regarding foreshadowing I would add that it can make twists that only surprise the viewers more legit while a lot of the twists that surprise everyone don't need it (it may even negatively affect the impact in some cases). Also if unforeshadowed twists are at least well and meaningfully implemented in the worldbuilding and future of the story and not discarded/forgotten soon after, I can also forgive it. Truly bad asspulls are those who never have any other effect than being an asspull. Which isn't the case in terms of the HxH and AoT examples (well, I'm being optimistic in terms of AoT since it's still not all clear after season 1). That's critically speaking though, but personally I have a lot of tolerance for sudden twists even if they are technically badly executed, since they're just fun most of the time. Of course it sucks when a great show gets dragged down by them, but a mediocre anime with lots of (even bad) twists is more enjoyable than a mediocre anime that is predictable. Of course my tolerance also depends on how immersed I am with the series in the first place, but there is some limit to it. For example if Alluka was a character that was literally invented for the purpose of that arc it would have been a bit too much, but keeping some blank characters for future purposes and then using them like that is okay in my book. |
| I probably regret this post by now. |
KokkoStar said: A good twist surprises the characters, a bad one only surprises the viewers. Stealing this quote |
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hentai_eucli said: KokkoStar said: Oh, a good twist surprises both the characters and the viewers. He's the only one who can use it in an MMO. There was no foreshadowing either. Yeah I agree with that then. Its not like there was no foreshadowing at all, but I think I get what you mean. How should have it been introduced, in order for it to not be an asspull? Not making it into a unique skill which breaks the rules of every MMO ever. Nobody would play a game where there's such a huge gap between players, gaming is a miniature meritocracy. |
KokkoStar said: To be fair, the creator of the world obviously didn't have proper gaming in mind.hentai_eucli said: Yeah I agree with that then. Its not like there was no foreshadowing at all, but I think I get what you mean. How should have it been introduced, in order for it to not be an asspull? Not making it into a unique skill which breaks the rules of every MMO ever. Nobody would play a game where there's such a huge gap between players, gaming is a miniature meritocracy. |
KokkoStar said: hentai_eucli said: Yeah I agree with that then. Its not like there was no foreshadowing at all, but I think I get what you mean. How should have it been introduced, in order for it to not be an asspull? Not making it into a unique skill which breaks the rules of every MMO ever. Nobody would play a game where there's such a huge gap between players, gaming is a miniature meritocracy. But not making it ino a unique skill, would make it lose its purpose. Its not like there is a huge gap beetween players, its only one player, recognized by the game master that was given this skill. And it had a purpose. |
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| It still wrecks my suspension of disbelief that anyone would play SAO. GI works in HxH because it wasn't designed to be played by the masses or for enjoyment. "It's only one player." If a dev said that hell would break loose and the game would be boycotted. The purpose was to make Kirito OP. |
KokkoStar said: I suppose you could have that angle, but only if it was said somewhere that the unique skill function was designed into the game as part of the proper system. I don't think the anime had it either way, so it's up to interpretation.It still wrecks my suspension of disbelief that anyone would play SAO. GI works in HxH because it wasn't designed to be played by the masses or for enjoyment. |
KokkoStar said: It still wrecks my suspension of disbelief that anyone would play SAO. GI works in HxH because it wasn't designed to be played by the masses or for enjoyment. But SAO wasn't really designed for that either. Plus, nobody knew about this skill, until after they played the game. It woudn't affect the potential buyers. It was only revealed after everyone got trapped in the game |
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| It was a while since I saw SAO, I must have forgotten. Then the only thing that factors into the asspull is the lack of foreshadowing. |
| I never thought I'd see the day where I'd defend SAO. KokkoStar said: Even if we can''t have the asspull angle, Gary Stu wish fulfillment never fails.It was a while since I saw SAO, I must have forgotten. Then the only thing that factors into the asspull is the lack of foreshadowing. |
KokkoStar said: It was a while since I saw SAO, I must have forgotten. Then the only thing that factors into the asspull is the lack of foreshadowing. Sure, but is that concrete? Thats what I'm wondering. I mean, what if the lack of foreshadowing actually adds to the "asspull" What if foreshadowing would have ruined the surprise effect, or whatever the author was aiming for? I mean, there surely must be situations where lack of it is actually a positive thing |
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| Main Protagonist without Plot Armor will be considered as Good writing or not? |
| Do you play Azure Lane? Then please join my fanclub https://myanimelist.net/clubs.php?cid=74907 |
Ckan said: I never thought I'd see the day where I'd defend SAO. It's good that you defend it, no work should get unnecessary hate. Good foreshadowing has never ruined anything, it's only added to the work. |
Zeta986 said: Main Protagonist without Plot Armor will be considered as Good writing or not? Would he be a main protagonist if there wasn't any plot armor? I mean a story's main protagonist should be one that lived enough to reach the end or a relative conclusion, shoudn't it? If the main character dies in the middle of the story, what kind of story would that be? |
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hentai_eucli said: Zeta986 said: Main Protagonist without Plot Armor will be considered as Good writing or not? Would he be a main protagonist if there wasn't any plot armor? I mean a story's main protagonist should be one that lived enough to reach the end or a relative conclusion, shoudn't it? If the main character dies in the middle of the story, what kind of story would that be? A subversive one that is very refreshing. |
KokkoStar said: hentai_eucli said: Would he be a main protagonist if there wasn't any plot armor? I mean a story's main protagonist should be one that lived enough to reach the end or a relative conclusion, shoudn't it? If the main character dies in the middle of the story, what kind of story would that be? A subversive one that is very refreshing. I don't see how a story like that is possible If the main character dies in the middle of the story, and the story continues, then that character wasn't the main one |
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KokkoStar said: But Eucli brings up a fair enough point. If one's going for shock/surprise in a twist, foreshadowing - if too heavy handed - can hurt that. On the other-hand, not having much foreshadowing can feel essentially the same as not having it at all, I suppose.Good foreshadowing has never ruined anything, it's only added to the work. But yeah, it does come back to the question of what we'd consider 'good foreshadowing'. |
| ckan say the line to me the one that neko chick in monogatari says after you say she knows everything pls pls pls |
☕ Truth be told, I'm quite proud of my house blend. To attain my flavor and fragrance, I use five different types of coffee beans. ☕ |
hentai_eucli said: You can have multiple main characters in a story. Or a story can end with the demise of the MC.I don't see how a story like that is possible If the main character dies in the middle of the story, and the story continues, then that character wasn't the main one Korrvo said: I don't know what you're talking about, Korrvo. I just know that you should fish for these things more subtly.ckan say the line to me the one that neko chick in monogatari says after you say she knows everything pls pls pls |
Ckan said: hentai_eucli said: You can have multiple main characters in a story. Or a story can end with the demise of the MC.I don't see how a story like that is possible If the main character dies in the middle of the story, and the story continues, then that character wasn't the main one In the first case yes. But that is basically main characters In the second case, sure again, but that is an entirely different thing as the character dying in the middle of story, and then the story contiuing without that character. Its another thing to end with the characters death, and another thing to continue |
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| Ckan pls do it for it me *^* |
☕ Truth be told, I'm quite proud of my house blend. To attain my flavor and fragrance, I use five different types of coffee beans. ☕ |
| I don't do everything asked of me, I just do what I do. I'm sorry, Korrv. |
| FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF good enough |
☕ Truth be told, I'm quite proud of my house blend. To attain my flavor and fragrance, I use five different types of coffee beans. ☕ |
| Class' so boring ughh.. |
| If Son Goku is the 1st Gary Sue character in anime history, then Lina Inverse is the 1st Mary Sue character in anime history? |
| Do you play Azure Lane? Then please join my fanclub https://myanimelist.net/clubs.php?cid=74907 |
hentai_eucli said: True. I didn't read through the whole chain.Ckan said: You can have multiple main characters in a story. Or a story can end with the demise of the MC. In the first case yes. But that is basically main characters In the second case, sure again, but that is an entirely different thing as the character dying in the middle of story, and then the story contiuing without that character. Its another thing to end with the characters death, and another thing to continue I think the issue here is that 'plot armour' is often an overused term. It should only really refer to circumstances where events are stacked against the MC - where it's unlikely that they would survive- and yet they somehow do; often through incredible methods like 'it was luck'. |
Zeta986 said: Prince of MAL should be cupc. Wow, I get to be a prince? That's cool as hell dude! |
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Ckan said: hentai_eucli said: True. I didn't read through the whole chain.In the first case yes. But that is basically main characters In the second case, sure again, but that is an entirely different thing as the character dying in the middle of story, and then the story contiuing without that character. Its another thing to end with the characters death, and another thing to continue I think the issue here is that 'plot armour' is often an overused term. It should only really refer to circumstances where events are stacked against the MC - where it's unlikely that they would survive- and yet they somehow do; often through incredible methods like 'it was luck'. Still, isn't that what qualifies them for being MC? If they had died during those events then the story woudn't be worth telling. Its exactly because they survived that their story is worth telling. Or at least thats how I see it |
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| Ckan could you delete some pictures with next to no comments, I'm itching to post new ones. |
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| No deleting the Nyanpasu pic though |
| Probably the most annoying monster I've ever had the pleasure of beating. |
cupc said: Only because you asked so nicely.Ckan could you delete some pictures with next to no comments, I'm itching to post new ones. hentai_eucli said: Ckan said: True. I didn't read through the whole chain. I think the issue here is that 'plot armour' is often an overused term. It should only really refer to circumstances where events are stacked against the MC - where it's unlikely that they would survive- and yet they somehow do; often through incredible methods like 'it was luck'. Still, isn't that what qualifies them for being MC? If they had died during those events then the story woudn't be worth telling. Its exactly because they survived that their story is worth telling. Or at least thats how I see it It comes down to how you draw the line on the term. At its most general, you could say it's MC's not dying because they're MCs'. But that's pretty useless, because that means even a story without violence would be full of 'plot armour'. So we take it to mean cases when the MC should in higher likelihood perish. I think it's easier to apply it in cases where extraordinary events save MC - a miracle healer appears, the MC manifests some last-ditch regenerative power, or a bible blocks the bullet, for example. An action MC doesn't have to have plot armour, but generally, in life-or-death stories, it's hard to go without it, true. |
| There are some pictures that clearly are just wasting space there, such as this brilliant bishounen interpretation of F/SN guys. Seriously, get out! http://myanimelist.net/clubs.php?action=view&t=pic&id=64093&pid=309340 |
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| don't delete the picture of rin though pls |
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Ckan said: It comes down to how you draw the line on the term. At its most general, you could say it's MC's not dying because they're MCs'. But that's pretty useless, because that means even a story without violence would be full of 'plot armour'. So we take it to mean cases when the MC should in higher likelihood perish. I think it's easier to apply it in cases where extraordinary events save MC - a miracle healer appears, the MC manifests some last-ditch regenerative power, or a bible blocks the bullet, for example. An action MC doesn't have to have plot armour, but generally, in life-or-death stories, it's hard to go without it, true. I see, when you put it that way, I can see what you mean. More extreme cases certainly seem more appropriate for the use of this term. |
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| Welp, that was fast. No more pics for a while. |
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| it went so fast i couldn't even post a 2nd picture rip |
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| Ok. who ninja'd me with that Sailor Moon pic? |
silverwalls said: it went so fast i couldn't even post a 2nd picture rip Your eyepatch picture has two boys so one is enough. The bishounen allotment is full as it is. |
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Okashi_sama said: That would be me. Why? It amused me.Ok. who ninja'd me with that Sailor Moon pic? |
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cupc said: There are some pictures that clearly are just wasting space there, such as this brilliant bishounen interpretation of F/SN guys. Seriously, get out! http://myanimelist.net/clubs.php?action=view&t=pic&id=64093&pid=309340 wow someone edited the caption LOL MAL needs more club image space dayum |
| So, Monty Oum's dead. If you don't know who that is, he is the creator of RWBY and the person who animates all the kickass fight scenes. This is sad news for me. |
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| yeah, rip :( and he voices one of the characters too... that'll be a hard spot to fill (i mean emotionally, not actually) |
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